New factions?

[Ludens]

Well, apart from the Bastarnae and Boshporian Kingdom, both of which might very well make it into EBII, I don´t really see any possible factions, unless you count the Boii as Eastern Europe.

Don't forget the Lugii/Lugians in southern Poland. They were in the running for inclusion in EB1, but lost out to the Sabyn.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I thought it was still uncertain if the Saba even originated in Southern Arabia or Eastern Ethiopia.

Does that matter for EB purposes? We don't know where Etruscans came from, but we know sure know a lot more about them than about other civilizations, like the Eastern European ones for instance. Mostly all that matters is everything about what the civilization was at about 272 BC.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Does that matter for EB purposes? We don't know where Etruscans came from, but we know sure know a lot more about them than about other civilizations, like the Eastern European ones for instance. Mostly all that matters is everything about what the civilization was at about 272 BC.

Which we know less about then the Boii.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Which we know less about then the Boii.

We know less about Etruscans than Boii? Is that what you meant?

Are you sure? True, Etruscans are mysterious, but we have countless Etruscan artifacts and we have even found inscriptions in their alphabet, which we sadly cannot decipher, but I am quite certain that if the US military worked on deciphering Etruscan alphabet as much as they work on cracking Russian and Chinese codes, then we would already be reading those inscriptions with ease.

[a completely inoffensive name]

We know less about Etruscans than Boii? Is that what you meant?

Are you sure? True, Etruscans are mysterious, but we have countless Etruscan artifacts and we have even found inscriptions in their alphabet, which we sadly cannot decipher, but I am quite certain that if the US military worked on deciphering Etruscan alphabet as much as they work on cracking Russian and Chinese codes, then we would already be reading those inscriptions with ease.

oops I forgot to edit that quote, to only say the last part about knowing only what they were like in 272 B.C. To which I meant to imply that we know more about the Boii in 272 then the Saba in 272, and that the Boii is guaranteed a spot because of our knowledge of them compared to others already in game and its necessity for game balance in middle Europe. I wasn't referring to the Etruscans.

[MeinPanzer]

oops I forgot to edit that quote, to only say the last part about knowing only what they were like in 272 B.C. To which I meant to imply that we know more about the Boii in 272 then the Saba in 272, and that the Boii is guaranteed a spot because of our knowledge of them compared to others already in game and its necessity for game balance in middle Europe. I wasn't referring to the Etruscans.

Since you are so insistent on this point, would you care to summarize why you think there is more evidence for the Boii c. 272 BC than there is for the Sabaeans?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Since you are so insistent on this point, would you care to summarize why you think there is more evidence for the Boii c. 272 BC than there is for the Sabaeans?

Idk, twice as many sources in the Boii wikipedia page then the Saba page? Seriously though, I am not an expert on either but I was around when Saba was introduced and a lot of people were like why? And apparently they needed a faction there to keep AS and Ptole from spreading into that region instead of fighting in Palestine and Syria, not because of any major historical importance.

If you check my original posts you will also see I said that that the Boii will be in mostly due to game balance and not major historical accuracy. Someone said, well how much do we know about the Boii then and I replied less then the Saba, because I have played the Saba in game and it is not anywhere near the level of historical content as any of the other factions. I have read before from others that the only major info on the Germanic tribes comes from Tacitus and is way in the future from 272, yet when I have played Sweboz there is a lot of historical information. So if EB seems to have more info on the Germanic tribes in 272 then supposedly a major red sea trading nation, then why should I expect the Boii another major tribe to have less info then the Saba?

[MeinPanzer]

Idk, twice as many sources in the Boii wikipedia page then the Saba page? Seriously though, I am not an expert on either but I was around when Saba was introduced and a lot of people were like why? And apparently they needed a faction there to keep AS and Ptole from spreading into that region instead of fighting in Palestine and Syria, not because of any major historical importance.

I don't think I need to be writing this, but Wikipedia is a very poor source for any sort of historical information, especially on a specialist subject like ancient South Arabian civilizations. I know that the EB team has had a hard time getting experts to join the team who can help with the Sabaeans, so the Sabaeans of EBI are not really a good reflection of the historical evidence, unfortunately.

If you check my original posts you will also see I said that that the Boii will be in mostly due to game balance and not major historical accuracy. Someone said, well how much do we know about the Boii then and I replied less then the Saba, because I have played the Saba in game and it is not anywhere near the level of historical content as any of the other factions. I have read before from others that the only major info on the Germanic tribes comes from Tacitus and is way in the future from 272, yet when I have played Sweboz there is a lot of historical information. So if EB seems to have more info on the Germanic tribes in 272 then supposedly a major red sea trading nation, then why should I expect the Boii another major tribe to have less info then the Saba?

There's some information from sources on events contemporary to the EB timeframe about historical events related to the Germanic tribes, but the only evidence on most of their culture comes from Germania, which was written c. 100 AD. There is far less actual historical information about the Sabaeans than the Germans or the Boii, but much more cultural information (i.e. civic institutions, religion, social practices). Since the difficulty in EB is recreating the culture as a whole and not the history after 272 BC beyond general trends (since that, for the most part, is up to the players), there are many more resources relating to the Sabaeans available to the team than relating to the Boii or the Germans.

As for the gameplay considerations, those are their own separate matter, but you seem to be conflating history and practical gameplay applications here when your historical basis is wrong.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Ahh, so what you are saying is that the lack of info on the Saba is not due to a lack of archeological information and references by others, but due to a lack of people on the EB team who are knowledgeable about the culture?

[Cartaphilus]

Almost 60 pages of thread and we have only Pergamon revealed.


Nice job, men.
I'll be whipping myself till next preview

[Ibrahim]

Ahh, so what you are saying is that the lack of info on the Saba is not due to a lack of archeological information and references by others, but due to a lack of people on the EB team who are knowledgeable about the culture?

pretty much


so, many will think that the Boii will be in EBII?

Ineresting idea. should balance the east german area neatly.

@meinpanzer: may you supply any information on Saba's army (besides what EB has)? I have already modded the cavalry, and need them checked it out. PM or post, it don't matter. neither does time-not in a hurry this time.

[Ludens]

Seriously though, I am not an expert on either but I was around when Saba was introduced and a lot of people were like why? And apparently they needed a faction there to keep AS and Ptole from spreading into that region instead of fighting in Palestine and Syria, not because of any major historical importance.

If that was the reason, then they would simply have added strong rebel armies to the region like they did in the Alps. The Saba were included to represent the Arabian people, whom may not have been as spectacularly successful as the Hellenes (at least, not in this era), but whom had a pretty sophisticated urban civilization and were major traders. Also, this gave the cities in the area a proper founding faction, as previously they would rebel to the Ptolemaioi or the Parthians, neither of which was realistic.

Gameplay considerations do play a role when considering candidate factions, but they take second seat to history. The Sabeans certainly were not added on flimsy historical basis. Yes, they may not have been the power that Pergamon was, but on the other hand the Hellenes are already very well represented, and the Arabs barely.

Balancing a faction is, to my mind, no argument at all for including another one. That can be done by creating powerful rebels, changing recruitment zones, etc. Expending a faction slot is really the last option.

[Cartaphilus]

After the Pergamon preview, the main bets of the thread are:

-Numidia
-Boii
-Arevaci

The other factions mentioned are more hypothetical:

-Mauritania
-Belgae
-Bosphorean kingdom
-Bastarnae
-Scythia
-Galatia
-Goidelics
-Siracusa
-Massalia.
-Nubia
-Indian satrapy
-Yue-zhi
-Etc

This is the basic summary of 60 pages of interesting and funny "iddle" talk.

[MeinPanzer]

Ahh, so what you are saying is that the lack of info on the Saba is not due to a lack of archeological information and references by others, but due to a lack of people on the EB team who are knowledgeable about the culture?

From what I've heard, yeah. That's not to denigrate the EB team though - specialists in South Arabian archaeology and epigraphy are very few and far between, and they are an even more insular and close-knit group than almost any other group of specialists I've encountered. The EB team has done their best with what they have, which has still done a very good job of representing the situation in South Arabia at the time.

[a completely inoffensive name]

From what I've heard, yeah. That's not to denigrate the EB team though - specialists in South Arabian archaeology and epigraphy are very few and far between, and they are an even more insular and close-knit group than almost any other group of specialists I've encountered. The EB team has done their best with what they have, which has still done a very good job of representing the situation in South Arabia at the time.

Hmmm, interesting. Why are they so insular and close-knit?

[Ibrahim]

Hmmm, interesting. Why are they so insular and close-knit?

It has to do with the size of their branch of linguistics/archeology/any science or social setting, etc. not many are into this. so, in order to support themselves/get help, they support each other. I can personally vouch for that: working with the AP bio students in one class on a seperate project from another, I quickly became friends with the whole class, and vice versa-and the competition between classes waqs notoriously vicious, since neither side wanted to bother with the other (i.e, grew insular). or take how tribes act; the smaller ones (like some tribes in the amazons or New guinea), tend to get close knit, cohesive, and insular. Bigger groups have more weight, so they can be more outgoing, surplused, and often incohesive (like a city can be-socially).

In conclusion: any small group that has a particular specialty or skill does tend to bond together due to the small size, common interest, and need to support and prop one another.

did I just describe a sociological phenomenon?

[MeinPanzer]

Hmmm, interesting. Why are they so insular and close-knit?

Pretty much because of what Ibrahim wrote. South Arabia was a historically fairly isolated region (mostly just interacting with other parts of Arabia and parts of eastern Africa), so specialists in ancient Arabia do much less work on interactions between cultures and civilizations than almost any other study of the ancient world. Arabian specialists are as small in number as, say, scholars of ancient India, but they do not have to focus nearly as much on other areas of study. Consequently, it seems that Arabian specialists interact much more with each other and form a closed group. Not to mention that in order to do any serious work, one must be familiar with a century or more of intensive and often very complex chronological research and be able to read Sabaean, which is not widely taught.

[General Appo]

-Yue-zhi

Ahem. The Yuezhi didn´t enter the map until about 100 years after the game´s start, and since there will be no emergent factions I very much doubt they will be in as an independent faction.
I think they will still be represented as in EBI with the appearance of a few überstrong rebel armies, possibly scripted better in EBII so they will actually do anything except just sit around or just take a single town, but hardly as an actual faction.

[Cartaphilus]

Ahem. The Yuezhi didn´t enter the map until about 100 years after the game´s start, and since there will be no emergent factions I very much doubt they will be in as an independent faction.
I think they will still be represented as in EBI with the appearance of a few überstrong rebel armies, possibly scripted better in EBII so they will actually do anything except just sit around or just take a single town, but hardly as an actual faction.

Don't say "ahem" too quickly, my friend.
I said that these were the factions the people have speculated about in the whole thread.
But this is very far from my own opinion.
I don't think that the yuezhi will be in the game.

[zurab]

1. Tyrus
2. Caucasian Iberia
3. Syracuse
4. Bosporus
5. Marcomanni(???)
6. Iberian tribe
7. Numidia
8. Bithynya(?)




http://www.forumancientcoins.com/cat...54&pos=0#Greek Coins Coins

nice link btw)))

[Strategos Alexandros]

What is Tyrus?

[theoldbelgian]

what about the belgae confederation? historical buffer against Germanic invasions in Gaul
gave a very good account against Caesar
another rebellion after wards under ambiorix which forced the romans to take some aspirins
already got a few unique units in EB
sure they weren't imperialistic except for the invasions in Britain to give birth to the casse
and come on people
do you know nicer people then the good old Belgians :D

[zurab]

What is Tyrus?

Týros(greek) is TYRE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon

It was often attacked by Egypt, besieged by Shalmaneser V, who was assisted by the Phoenicians of the mainland, for five years, and by Nebuchadnezzar (586–573 BC) for thirteen years, without success, although a compromise peace was made in which Tyre paid tribute to the Babylonians. It later fell under the power of the Persians.

In 332 BC, the city was conquered by Alexander the Great, after a siege of seven months in which he built the causeway from the mainland to the island[13], but it continued to maintain much of its commercial importance until the Christian era. The presence of the causeway affected water currents nearby, causing sediment to build up, making the connection permanent.

In 315 BC, Alexander's former general Antigonus begins his own siege of Tyre[14] , taking the city a year later [15].

In 126 BC, Tyre regained its independence[16] (from the Seleucids) and was allowed to keep much of its independence when the area became a Roman province in 64 BC[17] .

[Jolt]

Well, it's a simplistic, stereotypical view. You wouldn't assume even the least developed European culture used sticks at that time, but for a little-understood African nation you were comfortable with that same assumption.

I think by sticks and stuff Hax meant something like this?

[General Appo]

Týros(greek) is TYRE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon

It was often attacked by Egypt, besieged by Shalmaneser V, who was assisted by the Phoenicians of the mainland, for five years, and by Nebuchadnezzar (586–573 BC) for thirteen years, without success, although a compromise peace was made in which Tyre paid tribute to the Babylonians. It later fell under the power of the Persians.

In 332 BC, the city was conquered by Alexander the Great, after a siege of seven months in which he built the causeway from the mainland to the island[13], but it continued to maintain much of its commercial importance until the Christian era. The presence of the causeway affected water currents nearby, causing sediment to build up, making the connection permanent.

In 315 BC, Alexander's former general Antigonus begins his own siege of Tyre[14] , taking the city a year later [15].

In 126 BC, Tyre regained its independence[16] (from the Seleucids) and was allowed to keep much of its independence when the area became a Roman province in 64 BC[17] .

Emmm....first of none of except the last note is within EB´s timeframe, and secondly the fact that the city got its ass kicked by 3 different guys hardly seems to justify its inclusion as a faction.

Tyre was long, long, long, really really really long gone its primetime and IIRC was just a moderately wealthy city complete at the whims of the greater powers of its area.
They never really had any expansionist ideas either, even during its hey-days it was mostly trading and small colonies.
Had the game been set say...1000 BC to 600 BC, then sure, Tyre (or perhaps rather a whole Phoenician faction) would probably be a good choice, but as of now I´ve yet to see a single even mediocre reason for its inclusion as anything beyond a region capital.
Heck, you said yourself the city wasn´t even independent until 126 BC!

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

I think the inclusion of the Boii would be great and would finally do away with the need for these absurd super stacks they currently have in Central Europe. But my dream is to see the Galatians as a playable faction... Who knows? A Celtic Empire in Asia would be a very juicy prospect.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Meh, there is already one new faction in Asia Minor: Pergamon, in addition to the many other factions that are around or already in Asia Minor, so the Galatikoi are no longer an option really. Makes no sense to spam one area of the map, while leaving others entirely empty. Not to mention that the Galatikoi were not especially expansionist, which is the main criteria for smaller factions. I mean, they did plenty of raiding, I am certain, but no large scale organized invasions. Except for the original Gallic invasion that brought the Galatians to whee they were of course.

[Ludens]

1. Tyrus
2. Caucasian Iberia
3. Syracuse
4. Bosporus
5. Marcomanni(???)
6. Iberian tribe
7. Numidia
8. Bithynya(?)

IIRC the Marcomanni were part of the Suebi (Sweboz) confederacy, and already in EB1. As for Tyre, I don't think it was much of a power of Alexander sacked it. Certainly, it didn't have any imperial ambitions. Probably just as well, with two very Imperial and very powerful neighbours.

[lenin96]

1.Boii
2.Numidian faction
3.Arevaci
4.Lugii
5.Another British faction
6.Thracian faction

[impspy]

I'd like to see a celtic faction in the Nothern British Isles (sots, picts)