I Am Shocked, Shocked that U.S. Gov Abused Blank Check Powers

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

You guys keep lobbing this stat around. Congress is pretty much always unpopular. The rating is not so low just or only because Dems took over two years ago. It's a cumulative disgust after 8 years of policies and laws they don't like. Most of which we have your party to thank for.

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My party? Again, I must state that I am an independent, registered to no party. Stop with the stereotyping and blind grouping of people who disagree with you, and actually think about the issue at hand.

How does this excuse the Democrat controlled Congress from enabling the administration on this matter?

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

You guys keep lobbing this stat around. Congress is pretty much always unpopular. The rating is not so low just or only because Dems took over two years ago. It's a cumulative disgust after 8 years of policies and laws they don't like. Most of which we have your party to thank for.

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Not really.

Why are we blathering on tossing blame at Congress and the President here on this topic? Heck, we know they don't listen to We the People. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Not really.

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Ouch, I didn't know it was that bad. ~D Hopefully a intra-party revolt is brewing...

Pelosi made for a good minority leader. Annoying and partisan, just what you want in Congress, a speed bump. She just doesn't have a clue outside that role, she needs to lead and stand up for the people, this is what the House is for.

It's Friday night, I'm mostly drunk, and I can't stay up to debate those in the Pacific time-zone. Good night all. :medievalcheers:

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Originally Posted by drone

My party? Again, I must state that I am an independent, registered to no party. Stop with the stereotyping and blind grouping of people who disagree with you, and actually think about the issue at hand.

How does this excuse the Democrat controlled Congress from enabling the administration on this matter?

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If you are independent, stop demanding rationales for Republican legislation that a lot of Dem lemmings got shepherded or scared or cajoled into supporting for national security purposes. I'm not happy about it, nor have I ever made a claim that Every Dem votes in lockstep with my beliefs and how I would like them to vote. But if you think looking down your nose at Congressional approval ratings and unpopular Republican pieces of legislation which haven't been retired by the Democratic Congress, and blaming it all on the Democrats, doesn't come off as markedly one-sided and partisan, you need to work on those Independent credibility ratings.

I don't like the Patriot Act, the warrantless wiretapping, etc. But neither do I like this mass export of George W. Bush's administration's most unpopular policies wholesale onto the shoulders of the Democrats. Then again I might be called left-wing even by the standards of the Democratic party, so, contrary to what many people say about me here, don't expect me to usher out some talking points to defend the Patriot Act. It's disgusting and just a return of McCarthyism, wartime hysteria and grabs of power to invade privacy and overrule civil rights and protections. But from the perspective of ending this legislation... are you suggesting I'm better off voting Rep all down the line in November? :) Don't have a lot of other choices, do I?

One of the parties is going to control the majority in January. And I don't believe in a toilet flush independent vote. When independent parties get their act together and pull their collective heads from their buttocks and stop focusing on single issues or trivial distinctions from the major parties, or refusing to compromise on one or two hard core nitpicks that prevent them from having any mainstream appeal, or actually try to work their way up the powerbase from the grassroots and local and state levels instead of just trying to decapitate the major parties with a Presidential lame duck power grab, I'll consider giving one my vote. But unless you have a compelling argument that the Republicans are more likely to overturn their own legislation, then your accusations that I'm a partisan because I'm going to continue to vote Dem despite them failing to give a hard no to Bush on several votes is worthless.

First it is clear that the thread was derailed by me, for that I apologize to Lemur. It was a sign of bad taste and poor wit to add something insulting to some members here while I intended to insult the governing party. It is also correct that "Republican" and "ethics" are not strictly speaking oxymorons, as it is not paired as usual and is not such a plain and visible contradiction as black milk. Seamus showed here - for a Republican - surprising education and intellect. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

...and blaming it all on the Democrats...

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Where did you get the "all" from? I didn't read that in drone's post. He's suggesting there is shared blame. It may be a Republican turd, but the Democrats gift wrapped it.

I read it

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And for some reason people wonder why Congress' approval ratings are lower than Bush's. Even with a mandate from the 2006 election, they do nothing. Don't even try to pass this one off on the GOP, the Democrats failed big time here.

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here. I'm not passing anything off on the GOP; it is indeed, their legislation, and a handmedown from the W administration. (Funny how we talk about it in past tense while it's still alive.)

Yes, the Democrats have failed to revolutionize and gutterdump all the legislation of the Bush Administration. Admitted. So let's get over the accusations of talking points and partisanship and discuss the issue at hand.

I think of it as the old, incredibly irresponsible owners of a house letting the paint chip and selling the house to a younger couple. Younger couple hasn't repainted the walls 3 months after moving in yet. "WHAT, WHAT??!?!?!!? YOU RUINED THIS PAINT AND HAVEN'T FIXED IT?" That's what Drone's quote sounded like. Haven't fixed it yet, yeah I'll own that. But I love how Reps and "Independents" act like the Republicans are victims of their own actions and completely without the ability to control what they do, and we have to leave that up to the Democrats to clean up all the messes and horrible legislation they pass while in the majority. And if they fail to do so in snapfinger fashion then the entire history and total existence of the legislation is their fault.

Getting back to the point, I need someone... Redleg, whoever thinks I'm just a ridiculous partisan, to give me their compelling argument as to why I should believe out of the two parties that stand any chance whatsoever of controlling the government in January, that the Republicans are the ones who are going to overturn all their own power-abusive legislation.

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Originally Posted by Koga

I need someone... Redleg, whoever thinks I'm just a ridiculous partisan, to give me their compelling argument as to why I should believe out of the two parties that stand any chance whatsoever of controlling the government in January, that the Republicans are the ones who are going to overturn all their own power-abusive legislation.

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You'll get no compelling argument from me Koga. ~:pat:

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

You'll get no compelling argument from me Koga. ~:pat:

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Wise fellow. :D :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Redleg

However this was one area of the law that the Democratic controlled congress could of easily done.

So are you attempting to justify this failure of the Democratic controlled congress with the 30 years of Reaganomic trickle down and deregulation that you feel is a big failure?

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Right.....

So, if I spill coffee at work, and the stain is still there the next day, the blame is on the maintenance guy who didn't clean it up, and not myself who actually made the stain....?

:juggle2:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Right.....

So, if I spill coffee at work, and the stain is still there the next day, the blame is on the maintenance guy who didn't clean it up, and not myself who actually made the stain....?

:juggle2:

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That's always the way it worked. There is no end to the litany of things "Clinton did" when Bush stopped being a lame duck and started to actively screw up the country.

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

Getting back to the point, I need someone... Redleg, whoever thinks I'm just a ridiculous partisan, to give me their compelling argument as to why I should believe out of the two parties that stand any chance whatsoever of controlling the government in January, that the Republicans are the ones who are going to overturn all their own power-abusive legislation.

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Sure I think that your a one sided partisan because that is what you chose to present yourself as.

As for which party is better to fix our government - neither of the current major parties have a chance to fix the government since both of them pander to special interests. My issue on this topic is yes the Republican president put into congress and had approved by a Republican Controlled Congress a piece of legislation that is frankly goofy and an invasion of privacy, and when the Democratic controlled congress had a chance to refuse to renew this law - they chose to let it continue with some additions. (no substractions of the regulations to lessen the severity of the invasion of privacy.)

But instead of pointing out that both parties are to blame for this piece of garbage legislation - your focused on attempting to point out the Republicans are worse.

Sorry there - I cant agree when the other side had the opporunity and the ability to strike it down.

So once again if you want to be a partisan debater in this forum, you have to except that some of us will point out that both parties are at fault, differing in degrees at times, but the corruption and failures of both parites over the last 20 years sort of run together into one big overwhelming mass of corruption, dishonesty, and incompentance.

You should have noticed by now that I also hold the republican party responsible for their failure, but that doesnt mean the democratic party is going to be let off of the same hook that they bite into.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Right.....

So, if I spill coffee at work, and the stain is still there the next day, the blame is on the maintenance guy who didn't clean it up, and not myself who actually made the stain....?

:juggle2:

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Actually that is not what I said

You are responsible for not cleaning up your own mess

The maintenance guy is responsible for not cleaning up the mess that he knew was there.

Different types of blame, but shared nevertheless.

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Originally Posted by Oleander Ardens

First it is clear that the thread was derailed by me, for that I apologize to Lemur.

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No biggie. I should have realized that you can't talk about this sort of thing so close to an election without it becoming a partisan scrum. We can discuss the eavesdropping and surveillance powers of our government another time.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

I would prefer it that patrons do not use insulting generalisations that amount to personal attacks on other members. This tends to result in tit-for-tat flame wars.

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Seems a lot of people already do it.

Just saying....

Oh wow, this is the first time I've posted in the wrong thread. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Sure I think that your a one sided partisan because that is what you chose to present yourself as.

As for which party is better to fix our government - neither of the current major parties have a chance to fix the government since both of them pander to special interests. My issue on this topic is yes the Republican president put into congress and had approved by a Republican Controlled Congress a piece of legislation that is frankly goofy and an invasion of privacy, and when the Democratic controlled congress had a chance to refuse to renew this law - they chose to let it continue with some additions. (no substractions of the regulations to lessen the severity of the invasion of privacy.)

But instead of pointing out that both parties are to blame for this piece of garbage legislation - your focused on attempting to point out the Republicans are worse.

Sorry there - I cant agree when the other side had the opporunity and the ability to strike it down.

So once again if you want to be a partisan debater in this forum, you have to except that some of us will point out that both parties are at fault, differing in degrees at times, but the corruption and failures of both parites over the last 20 years sort of run together into one big overwhelming mass of corruption, dishonesty, and incompentance.

You should have noticed by now that I also hold the republican party responsible for their failure, but that doesnt mean the democratic party is going to be let off of the same hook that they bite into.

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As usual, your post missed my question and went off topic, littered with some personal jibes.

I'll ask it again. What reason is there to believe that the Dems are less likely than the Reps to overturn Rep legislation in the next four years?

Yup, they haven't done it yet. Yup, more of them than I would have liked signed off on it. (I half-way forgive most of them the first time around because it was shoved through like the bailout NOW NOW NOW NOW we need this NOW for national security, before it was established this would be the M.O. for everything bad Bush's admin wanted to pass.) But I still believe them far more likely to curtail or overturn it in the next four years than the Reps.

And if you have no compelling argument to the contrary, then calling me a partisan is just an empty ad hominem.

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Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good

Oh wow, this is the first time I've posted in the wrong thread. Sorry.

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Welcome to the Backroom!

:wizard:


We're always glad to have new folks join in the fun...

:hmg::boxing::viking:

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

As usual, your post missed my question and went off topic, littered with some personal jibes.

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As usual you asked for it, and you failed to read what was actually written. Here is the statement once again that you failed to read because you are indeed a partisan hack on this subject. In bold to make it easier for your ability to actually read something.

As for which party is better to fix our government - neither of the current major parties have a chance to fix the government since both of them pander to special interests

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I'll ask it again. What reason is there to believe that the Dems are less likely than the Reps to overturn Rep legislation in the next four years?

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Like alreadly stated on this topic - because you are demostrating an inablity to actually read what is written I will bold it for you again. the Democratics had the opporunity to overturn a piece of legislation and they did not, in fact I believe they approved measures to make it even easier.

Both parties have demonstrated that they are unlikely to do what is in the best interest of the nation. So once again the democratic party has demonstrated by their own actions that they are just as unlikely to overturn legislation once its been inacted.

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Yup, they haven't done it yet. Yup, more of them than I would have liked signed off on it. (I half-way forgive most of them the first time around because it was shoved through like the bailout NOW NOW NOW NOW we need this NOW for national security, before it was established this would be the M.O. for everything bad Bush's admin wanted to pass.) But I still believe them far more likely to curtail or overturn it in the next four years than the Reps.

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They might, however they have demonstrated on this issue that they won't as of right now. So saying that they are more likely when they have demonstrated that they won't is an extremely weak arguement. What's even funnier is that this was stated the first time and you failed to actually read.

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And if you have no compelling argument to the contrary, then calling me a partisan is just an empty ad hominem.

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Actaully it is not since you failed to actually read what I stated. I clearly stated that neither party is likely to do the right thing at this time. Your comments are extremely one sided - which makes you a partisan hack. If you think that is a personal jabe then fine but dont ask the question if you dont want to hear the answer, and then claim it wasn't answered. I find that extremely funny given your attempt here.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

As usual you asked for it, and you failed to read what was actually written.

Like alreadly stated on this topic - the Democratics had the opporunity to overturn a piece of legislation and they did not, in fact I believe they approved measures to make it even easier.

Both parties have demonstrated that they are unlikely to do what is in the best interest of the nation. So once again the democratic party has demonstrated by their own actions that they are just as unlikely to overturn legislation once its been inacted.

Actaully it is not since you failed to actually read what I stated. I clearly stated that neither party is likely to do the right thing at this time. Your comments are extremely one sided - which makes you a partisan hack. If you think that is a personal jabe then fine but dont ask the question if you dont want to hear the answer, often the answer is not what you wanted to hear

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My pained eyes can attest to the fact that I do, indeed, read what you say. And for future reference, responding to every sentence with "You did not read what I say, you fail at comprehension" does not further your argument. Especially when it's not true. :) You're just being trollish.

Since your answer was basically "we can't trust either party to do anything", and since the legislation is Republican in origin, and since there is zero chance that a third party will control the government in January, you have no call to label me a partisan for not changing my vote over the Patriot Act and wiretapping. I have more faith in what will probably end up being an even stronger Dem majority to overturn these laws or retire them, than I do in the Republican party to admit their ideas were bad an unlawful, perhaps even requiring investigations and subpoenas, and working to rectify and overturn these laws.

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As for which party is better to fix our government - neither of the current major parties have a chance to fix the government since both of them pander to special interests

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Since you propose no realistic alternatives as viable avenues to get these laws removed, you are just ranting and raving, and calling me a partisan and foaming at the mouth and insulting me. But you've got nothing to sell, so it's time to move on. :)

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

My pained eyes can attest to the fact that I do, indeed, read what you say. And for future reference, responding to every sentence with "You did not read what I say, you fail at comprehension" does not further your argument. Especially when it's not true. :) You're just being trollish.

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Tsk tsk - you stated I didnt answer the question - so you clearly did not read what was written. So the attempt here is false.

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Since your answer was basically "we can't trust either party to do anything", and since the legislation is Republican in origin, and since there is zero chance that a third party will control the government in January, you have no call to label me a partisan for not changing my vote over the Patriot Act and wiretapping. I have more faith in what will probably end up being an even stronger Dem majority to overturn these laws or retire them, than I do in the Republican party to admit their ideas were bad an unlawful, perhaps even requiring investigations and subpoenas, and working to rectify and overturn these laws.

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LOL - did I ask you to change your vote? I find that very amusing. Unfortunately for you the democtratic party has demonstrated by action that they are just as unlikely to overturn legislation once its inacted.

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Since you propose no realistic alternatives as viable avenues to get these laws removed, you are just ranting and raving, and calling me a partisan and foaming at the mouth and insulting me. But you've got nothing to sell, so it's time to move on. :)

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LOL - you might want to check on what you asked, your question is which of the two parties is most likely to do the right thing, you got your answer, However you failed to ask the question that you are attempting to ask now, so once again to address your initial question, both parties have demonstrated that they are unable to actually overturn a piece of legislation that they have enacted.

So you now to answer you new question is for some brave constitutional lawyer to actually challenge the law and take it through the legal system so that the third branch of our government can have the chance to demonstrate if they are capable of protecting our basic rights.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Tsk tsk - you stated I didnt answer the question - so you clearly did not read what was written. So the attempt here is false.

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Not at all, this all came out of you and others calling me a partisan for saying I still felt the best chance was with the Dems, and you all smugly pulled out their recent votes and such... and I failed, and continue to fail, to see why that is an argument that any other viable path in November will likely produce the desired result of overturning these bad laws.

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

Not at all, this all came out of you and others calling me a partisan for saying I still felt the best chance was with the Dems, and you all smugly pulled out their recent votes and such... and I failed, and continue to fail, to see why that is an argument that any other viable path in November will likely produce the desired result of overturning these bad laws.

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Like I have told you before extremely one sided arguements are partisan arguements. Now where it came from was not from your attempt of claiming that the democratics were the best chance its the actually arguement that you did present. It comes from your very first position.

Your very first post was an attempt at partisan humor, and when asked about the statement you replied with a basic partisan arguement, instead of addressing the failure of the current congress in passing the renewal of this legislation.

And to compound your error you decided to ask a question which you were not prepared for how it was going to be answered. You wanted me to claim that the Republicans were a better party, which demonstrates that you have not been paying attention to any of the statements I have written.

Then again it seems you are wanting a repeat of the discussion, and i will try to be a bit more civil, but then again maybe not given your initial attempts at misrepresentation of what I actually stated. So the ball is in your court, trying to misrepresent what is stated will definitily raise my interest in responding in a more basic manner.


Neither of the two men running for office will do anything concerning this particlur law. The Democratic party controls Congress right now and failed to do anything concerning this law, care to guess how both men voted on the renewal of this law? One did not vote and one voted for it, and it wasn't McCain that voted on the law. http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2008_cr/index.html So claiming that democratic party will overturn a law that they both supported given the way both parties voted for it, demonstrates a naivity that is basically a partisan arguement given that part of the party and it's presidential candidate in alreadly disproved your claim with their votes for the legislation. Now to cut the democratic party a break they at least had about half vote against the law, but as a party they failed to protect the american people's rights.

So the only viable path to overturn bad law in the United States happens to fall on the third branch of government - the Judicial Branch, and they can not doing anything until some brave constitutional lawyer decides to actually attempt the arguement. Claiming that the democratic party is better then the republican party falls flat on its face when one begins to look at the actions of congress

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

If you are independent, stop demanding rationales for Republican legislation that a lot of Dem lemmings got shepherded or scared or cajoled into supporting for national security purposes. I'm not happy about it, nor have I ever made a claim that Every Dem votes in lockstep with my beliefs and how I would like them to vote. But if you think looking down your nose at Congressional approval ratings and unpopular Republican pieces of legislation which haven't been retired by the Democratic Congress, and blaming it all on the Democrats, doesn't come off as markedly one-sided and partisan, you need to work on those Independent credibility ratings.

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Republican legislation? The 2008 FISA amendment (HR6304) was introduced 6/19/2008 by this guy (D-TX), to address the illegal action taken by the Bush administration and the telcos. How can you call a bill introduced in 2008 by a Democrat a Republican bill? :inquisitive:

As to my independent standing and the uselessness of our votes, I don't believe you understand what "independent" actually means. It does not mean that I vote Constitution party, or Green party, or Libertarian party, or Socialist party. I vote for the person I think will do the best job, regardless of party affiliation. I will vote Dem or GOP if I think it's appropriate. In 2006, my "useless" vote was one of about 2000 that got Jim Webb (D-VA) elected to the Senate over Allen (R-VA). And, yes, Webb then voted for the 2008 FISA amendment, and I'm pretty ticked off about it.

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Originally Posted by drone

Republican legislation? The 2008 FISA amendment (HR6304) was introduced 6/19/2008 by this guy (D-TX), to address the illegal action taken by the Bush administration and the telcos. How can you call a bill introduced in 2008 by a Democrat a Republican bill? :inquisitive:

As to my independent standing and the uselessness of our votes, I don't believe you understand what "independent" actually means. It does not mean that I vote Constitution party, or Green party, or Libertarian party, or Socialist party. I vote for the person I think will do the best job, regardless of party affiliation. I will vote Dem or GOP if I think it's appropriate. In 2006, my "useless" vote was one of about 2000 that got Jim Webb (D-VA) elected to the Senate over Allen (R-VA). And, yes, Webb then voted for the 2008 FISA amendment, and I'm pretty ticked off about it.

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Telco wasn't brought up before, weren't we talking about the Patriot Act? Yes, agreed, bad law.

RE: Independent, what do you do when you spend all your time arguing both parties are crap and just as bad at everything? Not vote? I don't feel that will help this time around, but of course it's your vote and perogative.

Not voting, unfortunately, never helps.

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

Telco wasn't brought up before, weren't we talking about the Patriot Act? Yes, agreed, bad law.

RE: Independent, what do you do when you spend all your time arguing both parties are crap and just as bad at everything? Not vote? I don't feel that will help this time around, but of course it's your vote and perogative.

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That is the perennial dilemma for the "decline to state" crowd. a) Hold your nose and pick the lesser of 2 evils, b)throw your franchise away on a non-winning 3rd-ee, or c)just stay home.

You didn't ask me directly, but the question was posed in a public forum, so: sometimes I've done a, more often I've done b, and though tempted to choose c, my upbringing won't let me avoid my duty to vote. This year, I haven't decided yet.

But you make a pursuasive case for the Senator from Ill, I grant. Given the times, and the current configuration of the legis bodies, maybe we gotta give the Dems what the Repubs had, a Royal Flush, as it were, to get us through this next bit, though I flinch naturally, granting that. That said ,it looks like it's gonna be that way anyway. I hear rumbles from the right that my Repub friends are gonna wash their hair Election Day, and start planning for '12.

So he might only have 4 years to do his thing vs eight. You think he can do it?

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

That is the perennial dilemma for the "decline to state" crowd. a) Hold your nose and pick the lesser of 2 evils, b)throw your franchise away on a non-winning 3rd-ee, or c)just stay home.

You didn't ask me directly, but the question was posed in a public forum, so: sometimes I've done a, more often I've done b, and though tempted to choose c, my upbringing won't let me avoid my duty to vote. This year, I haven't decided yet.

But you make a pursuasive case for the Senator from Ill, I grant. Given the times, and the current configuration of the legis bodies, maybe we gotta give the Dems what the Repubs had, a Royal Flush, as it were, to get us through this next bit, though I flinch naturally, granting that. That said ,it looks like it's gonna be that way anyway. I hear rumbles from the right that my Repub friends are gonna wash their hair Election Day, and start planning for '12.

So he might only have 4 years to do his thing vs eight. You think he can do it?

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Frankly I think the minds of most reps will be made up by Jan 1st that he can't, and hasn't. And that will be the theme of '12. So it seems to matter little how much or how little good he'll be able to get done. Balancing what was at that time an enormous deficit didn't earn Clinton much +++ from Republicans. I don't think Obama can do "everything" in one term nor is he claiming so. But I think even at the most cynical level possible, he's going to engage in as much damage control as possible. McCain wants to keep the ship veered full sail in the course that already made us hit three icebergs. His indefinite promise to keep the good wars going till 'victory alone will ensure that the problem is going to get much worse under McCain than it absolutely has to.

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

Telco wasn't brought up before, weren't we talking about the Patriot Act? Yes, agreed, bad law.

RE: Independent, what do you do when you spend all your time arguing both parties are crap and just as bad at everything? Not vote? I don't feel that will help this time around, but of course it's your vote and perogative.

Not voting, unfortunately, never helps.

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No, I never brought up the PATRIOT Act. The telco immunity added to the 2008 FISA amendment basically means that we will never find out what happened with the warrantless wiretapping, since it will not go to court. From my original post:

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Originally Posted by me

With this amendment, there is no accountability for the crimes committed by both the telco companies and the federal government. We have no true knowledge of what this surveillance covers, for all we know they tapped Democratic campaigns and congressional staff.

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The House originally rejected telco immunity, but they caved eventually and put it in anyway.

Independence: For presidential elections, most time my vote doesn't really count anyway, the GOP candidate has won Virginia every time since LBJ. This year, who knows. I can try to affect change in the House and Senate, and I can try to "game" the system. I can vote against poor incumbents, I can vote for guys I respect, I can vote to achieve gridlock. If I can't stomach either guy, I'll vote third party. Voting for a guy just because of the letter after his name is the worst reason to vote.

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Voting for a guy just because of the letter after his name is the worst reason to vote.

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Agreed, but no one here has given that as a reason.