I Am Shocked, Shocked that U.S. Gov Abused Blank Check Powers

[Koga No Goshi]

And for some reason people wonder why Congress' approval ratings are lower than Bush's. Even with a mandate from the 2006 election, they do nothing. Don't even try to pass this one off on the GOP, the Democrats failed big time here.

You guys keep lobbing this stat around. Congress is pretty much always unpopular. The rating is not so low just or only because Dems took over two years ago. It's a cumulative disgust after 8 years of policies and laws they don't like. Most of which we have your party to thank for.

[Redleg]

You guys keep lobbing this stat around. Congress is pretty much always unpopular. The rating is not so low just or only because Dems took over two years ago. It's a cumulative disgust after 8 years of policies and laws they don't like. Most of which we have your party both parties to thank for.

Correct for actually factual accuracy on who is to blame

[drone]

You guys keep lobbing this stat around. Congress is pretty much always unpopular. The rating is not so low just or only because Dems took over two years ago. It's a cumulative disgust after 8 years of policies and laws they don't like. Most of which we have your party to thank for.

My party? Again, I must state that I am an independent, registered to no party. Stop with the stereotyping and blind grouping of people who disagree with you, and actually think about the issue at hand.

How does this excuse the Democrat controlled Congress from enabling the administration on this matter?

[Koga No Goshi]

My party? Again, I must state that I am an independent, registered to no party. Stop with the stereotyping and blind grouping of people who disagree with you, and actually think about the issue at hand.

How does this excuse the Democrat controlled Congress from enabling the administration on this matter?

If you are independent, stop demanding rationales for Republican legislation that a lot of Dem lemmings got shepherded or scared or cajoled into supporting for national security purposes. I'm not happy about it, nor have I ever made a claim that Every Dem votes in lockstep with my beliefs and how I would like them to vote. But if you think looking down your nose at Congressional approval ratings and unpopular Republican pieces of legislation which haven't been retired by the Democratic Congress, and blaming it all on the Democrats, doesn't come off as markedly one-sided and partisan, you need to work on those Independent credibility ratings.

I don't like the Patriot Act, the warrantless wiretapping, etc. But neither do I like this mass export of George W. Bush's administration's most unpopular policies wholesale onto the shoulders of the Democrats. Then again I might be called left-wing even by the standards of the Democratic party, so, contrary to what many people say about me here, don't expect me to usher out some talking points to defend the Patriot Act. It's disgusting and just a return of McCarthyism, wartime hysteria and grabs of power to invade privacy and overrule civil rights and protections. But from the perspective of ending this legislation... are you suggesting I'm better off voting Rep all down the line in November? :) Don't have a lot of other choices, do I?

One of the parties is going to control the majority in January. And I don't believe in a toilet flush independent vote. When independent parties get their act together and pull their collective heads from their buttocks and stop focusing on single issues or trivial distinctions from the major parties, or refusing to compromise on one or two hard core nitpicks that prevent them from having any mainstream appeal, or actually try to work their way up the powerbase from the grassroots and local and state levels instead of just trying to decapitate the major parties with a Presidential lame duck power grab, I'll consider giving one my vote. But unless you have a compelling argument that the Republicans are more likely to overturn their own legislation, then your accusations that I'm a partisan because I'm going to continue to vote Dem despite them failing to give a hard no to Bush on several votes is worthless.

[Gregoshi]

...and blaming it all on the Democrats...

Where did you get the "all" from? I didn't read that in drone's post. He's suggesting there is shared blame. It may be a Republican turd, but the Democrats gift wrapped it.

[Koga No Goshi]

I read it

And for some reason people wonder why Congress' approval ratings are lower than Bush's. Even with a mandate from the 2006 election, they do nothing. Don't even try to pass this one off on the GOP, the Democrats failed big time here.

here. I'm not passing anything off on the GOP; it is indeed, their legislation, and a handmedown from the W administration. (Funny how we talk about it in past tense while it's still alive.)

Yes, the Democrats have failed to revolutionize and gutterdump all the legislation of the Bush Administration. Admitted. So let's get over the accusations of talking points and partisanship and discuss the issue at hand.

I think of it as the old, incredibly irresponsible owners of a house letting the paint chip and selling the house to a younger couple. Younger couple hasn't repainted the walls 3 months after moving in yet. "WHAT, WHAT??!?!?!!? YOU RUINED THIS PAINT AND HAVEN'T FIXED IT?" That's what Drone's quote sounded like. Haven't fixed it yet, yeah I'll own that. But I love how Reps and "Independents" act like the Republicans are victims of their own actions and completely without the ability to control what they do, and we have to leave that up to the Democrats to clean up all the messes and horrible legislation they pass while in the majority. And if they fail to do so in snapfinger fashion then the entire history and total existence of the legislation is their fault.

Getting back to the point, I need someone... Redleg, whoever thinks I'm just a ridiculous partisan, to give me their compelling argument as to why I should believe out of the two parties that stand any chance whatsoever of controlling the government in January, that the Republicans are the ones who are going to overturn all their own power-abusive legislation.

[Gregoshi]

I need someone... Redleg, whoever thinks I'm just a ridiculous partisan, to give me their compelling argument as to why I should believe out of the two parties that stand any chance whatsoever of controlling the government in January, that the Republicans are the ones who are going to overturn all their own power-abusive legislation.

You'll get no compelling argument from me Koga.

[Koga No Goshi]

You'll get no compelling argument from me Koga.

Wise fellow. :D

[Redleg]

Getting back to the point, I need someone... Redleg, whoever thinks I'm just a ridiculous partisan, to give me their compelling argument as to why I should believe out of the two parties that stand any chance whatsoever of controlling the government in January, that the Republicans are the ones who are going to overturn all their own power-abusive legislation.

Sure I think that your a one sided partisan because that is what you chose to present yourself as.

As for which party is better to fix our government - neither of the current major parties have a chance to fix the government since both of them pander to special interests. My issue on this topic is yes the Republican president put into congress and had approved by a Republican Controlled Congress a piece of legislation that is frankly goofy and an invasion of privacy, and when the Democratic controlled congress had a chance to refuse to renew this law - they chose to let it continue with some additions. (no substractions of the regulations to lessen the severity of the invasion of privacy.)

But instead of pointing out that both parties are to blame for this piece of garbage legislation - your focused on attempting to point out the Republicans are worse.

Sorry there - I cant agree when the other side had the opporunity and the ability to strike it down.

So once again if you want to be a partisan debater in this forum, you have to except that some of us will point out that both parties are at fault, differing in degrees at times, but the corruption and failures of both parites over the last 20 years sort of run together into one big overwhelming mass of corruption, dishonesty, and incompentance.

You should have noticed by now that I also hold the republican party responsible for their failure, but that doesnt mean the democratic party is going to be let off of the same hook that they bite into.

[Koga No Goshi]

Sure I think that your a one sided partisan because that is what you chose to present yourself as.

As for which party is better to fix our government - neither of the current major parties have a chance to fix the government since both of them pander to special interests. My issue on this topic is yes the Republican president put into congress and had approved by a Republican Controlled Congress a piece of legislation that is frankly goofy and an invasion of privacy, and when the Democratic controlled congress had a chance to refuse to renew this law - they chose to let it continue with some additions. (no substractions of the regulations to lessen the severity of the invasion of privacy.)

But instead of pointing out that both parties are to blame for this piece of garbage legislation - your focused on attempting to point out the Republicans are worse.

Sorry there - I cant agree when the other side had the opporunity and the ability to strike it down.

So once again if you want to be a partisan debater in this forum, you have to except that some of us will point out that both parties are at fault, differing in degrees at times, but the corruption and failures of both parites over the last 20 years sort of run together into one big overwhelming mass of corruption, dishonesty, and incompentance.

You should have noticed by now that I also hold the republican party responsible for their failure, but that doesnt mean the democratic party is going to be let off of the same hook that they bite into.

As usual, your post missed my question and went off topic, littered with some personal jibes.

I'll ask it again. What reason is there to believe that the Dems are less likely than the Reps to overturn Rep legislation in the next four years?

Yup, they haven't done it yet. Yup, more of them than I would have liked signed off on it. (I half-way forgive most of them the first time around because it was shoved through like the bailout NOW NOW NOW NOW we need this NOW for national security, before it was established this would be the M.O. for everything bad Bush's admin wanted to pass.) But I still believe them far more likely to curtail or overturn it in the next four years than the Reps.

And if you have no compelling argument to the contrary, then calling me a partisan is just an empty ad hominem.

[drone]

If you are independent, stop demanding rationales for Republican legislation that a lot of Dem lemmings got shepherded or scared or cajoled into supporting for national security purposes. I'm not happy about it, nor have I ever made a claim that Every Dem votes in lockstep with my beliefs and how I would like them to vote. But if you think looking down your nose at Congressional approval ratings and unpopular Republican pieces of legislation which haven't been retired by the Democratic Congress, and blaming it all on the Democrats, doesn't come off as markedly one-sided and partisan, you need to work on those Independent credibility ratings.

Republican legislation? The 2008 FISA amendment (HR6304) was introduced 6/19/2008 by this guy (D-TX), to address the illegal action taken by the Bush administration and the telcos. How can you call a bill introduced in 2008 by a Democrat a Republican bill?

As to my independent standing and the uselessness of our votes, I don't believe you understand what "independent" actually means. It does not mean that I vote Constitution party, or Green party, or Libertarian party, or Socialist party. I vote for the person I think will do the best job, regardless of party affiliation. I will vote Dem or GOP if I think it's appropriate. In 2006, my "useless" vote was one of about 2000 that got Jim Webb (D-VA) elected to the Senate over Allen (R-VA). And, yes, Webb then voted for the 2008 FISA amendment, and I'm pretty ticked off about it.

[Koga No Goshi]

Republican legislation? The 2008 FISA amendment (HR6304) was introduced 6/19/2008 by this guy (D-TX), to address the illegal action taken by the Bush administration and the telcos. How can you call a bill introduced in 2008 by a Democrat a Republican bill?

As to my independent standing and the uselessness of our votes, I don't believe you understand what "independent" actually means. It does not mean that I vote Constitution party, or Green party, or Libertarian party, or Socialist party. I vote for the person I think will do the best job, regardless of party affiliation. I will vote Dem or GOP if I think it's appropriate. In 2006, my "useless" vote was one of about 2000 that got Jim Webb (D-VA) elected to the Senate over Allen (R-VA). And, yes, Webb then voted for the 2008 FISA amendment, and I'm pretty ticked off about it.

Telco wasn't brought up before, weren't we talking about the Patriot Act? Yes, agreed, bad law.

RE: Independent, what do you do when you spend all your time arguing both parties are crap and just as bad at everything? Not vote? I don't feel that will help this time around, but of course it's your vote and perogative.

Not voting, unfortunately, never helps.

[KukriKhan]

Telco wasn't brought up before, weren't we talking about the Patriot Act? Yes, agreed, bad law.

RE: Independent, what do you do when you spend all your time arguing both parties are crap and just as bad at everything? Not vote? I don't feel that will help this time around, but of course it's your vote and perogative.

That is the perennial dilemma for the "decline to state" crowd. a) Hold your nose and pick the lesser of 2 evils, b)throw your franchise away on a non-winning 3rd-ee, or c)just stay home.

You didn't ask me directly, but the question was posed in a public forum, so: sometimes I've done a, more often I've done b, and though tempted to choose c, my upbringing won't let me avoid my duty to vote. This year, I haven't decided yet.

But you make a pursuasive case for the Senator from Ill, I grant. Given the times, and the current configuration of the legis bodies, maybe we gotta give the Dems what the Repubs had, a Royal Flush, as it were, to get us through this next bit, though I flinch naturally, granting that. That said ,it looks like it's gonna be that way anyway. I hear rumbles from the right that my Repub friends are gonna wash their hair Election Day, and start planning for '12.

So he might only have 4 years to do his thing vs eight. You think he can do it?

[Koga No Goshi]

That is the perennial dilemma for the "decline to state" crowd. a) Hold your nose and pick the lesser of 2 evils, b)throw your franchise away on a non-winning 3rd-ee, or c)just stay home.

You didn't ask me directly, but the question was posed in a public forum, so: sometimes I've done a, more often I've done b, and though tempted to choose c, my upbringing won't let me avoid my duty to vote. This year, I haven't decided yet.

But you make a pursuasive case for the Senator from Ill, I grant. Given the times, and the current configuration of the legis bodies, maybe we gotta give the Dems what the Repubs had, a Royal Flush, as it were, to get us through this next bit, though I flinch naturally, granting that. That said ,it looks like it's gonna be that way anyway. I hear rumbles from the right that my Repub friends are gonna wash their hair Election Day, and start planning for '12.

So he might only have 4 years to do his thing vs eight. You think he can do it?

Frankly I think the minds of most reps will be made up by Jan 1st that he can't, and hasn't. And that will be the theme of '12. So it seems to matter little how much or how little good he'll be able to get done. Balancing what was at that time an enormous deficit didn't earn Clinton much +++ from Republicans. I don't think Obama can do "everything" in one term nor is he claiming so. But I think even at the most cynical level possible, he's going to engage in as much damage control as possible. McCain wants to keep the ship veered full sail in the course that already made us hit three icebergs. His indefinite promise to keep the good wars going till 'victory alone will ensure that the problem is going to get much worse under McCain than it absolutely has to.

[drone]

Telco wasn't brought up before, weren't we talking about the Patriot Act? Yes, agreed, bad law.

RE: Independent, what do you do when you spend all your time arguing both parties are crap and just as bad at everything? Not vote? I don't feel that will help this time around, but of course it's your vote and perogative.

Not voting, unfortunately, never helps.

No, I never brought up the PATRIOT Act. The telco immunity added to the 2008 FISA amendment basically means that we will never find out what happened with the warrantless wiretapping, since it will not go to court. From my original post:

With this amendment, there is no accountability for the crimes committed by both the telco companies and the federal government. We have no true knowledge of what this surveillance covers, for all we know they tapped Democratic campaigns and congressional staff.

The House originally rejected telco immunity, but they caved eventually and put it in anyway.

Independence: For presidential elections, most time my vote doesn't really count anyway, the GOP candidate has won Virginia every time since LBJ. This year, who knows. I can try to affect change in the House and Senate, and I can try to "game" the system. I can vote against poor incumbents, I can vote for guys I respect, I can vote to achieve gridlock. If I can't stomach either guy, I'll vote third party. Voting for a guy just because of the letter after his name is the worst reason to vote.

[Koga No Goshi]

Voting for a guy just because of the letter after his name is the worst reason to vote.

Agreed, but no one here has given that as a reason.

[PanzerJaeger]

You guys keep lobbing this stat around. Congress is pretty much always unpopular. The rating is not so low just or only because Dems took over two years ago. It's a cumulative disgust after 8 years of policies and laws they don't like. Most of which we have your party to thank for.

Not really.

[Gregoshi]

Why are we blathering on tossing blame at Congress and the President here on this topic? Heck, we know they don't listen to We the People.

[drone]

Not really.

Ouch, I didn't know it was that bad. Hopefully a intra-party revolt is brewing...

Pelosi made for a good minority leader. Annoying and partisan, just what you want in Congress, a speed bump. She just doesn't have a clue outside that role, she needs to lead and stand up for the people, this is what the House is for.

It's Friday night, I'm mostly drunk, and I can't stay up to debate those in the Pacific time-zone. Good night all.

[Oleander Ardens]

First it is clear that the thread was derailed by me, for that I apologize to Lemur. It was a sign of bad taste and poor wit to add something insulting to some members here while I intended to insult the governing party. It is also correct that "Republican" and "ethics" are not strictly speaking oxymorons, as it is not paired as usual and is not such a plain and visible contradiction as black milk. Seamus showed here - for a Republican - surprising education and intellect.

[Lemur]

First it is clear that the thread was derailed by me, for that I apologize to Lemur.

No biggie. I should have realized that you can't talk about this sort of thing so close to an election without it becoming a partisan scrum. We can discuss the eavesdropping and surveillance powers of our government another time.