Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
SwedishFish
Honor divisions like Wiking, not Totenkopfverbande.
Oh absolutely - I agree. The Totenkopfverbande and Allgemaine SS should be humiliated for their horrors forever. Waffen-SS groups who never had anything to do with purges and most likely had no idea they were going on should be honored like we honor U.S. Marines today for their sacrifice and heroism. They gave their lives to defend a Germany that they believed was right and good, even though at that point it wasn't.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
SwedishFish
"Punishment camps" seem to be more of an understatement, however.
It wasn't the best way to put it, but it is technically true and not automatically pro-nazi.
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The SS was responsible for many of the atrocities committed, and I hope you don't deny that. SS-TotenkopfverbÀnde. The Einsatzgruppen, the death squads, that went out exclusively to kill undesirables. The SS was more of the political arm of the Wermacht, it's recruits, if I recall, had to be of Aryan descent, and pledge loyalty to the Nazi Party. Many of it's officers were well known Nazis.
Tuff made good points. There were many honorable SS soldiers.
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More of a revenge by the Soviets. And I cannot blame them. But trying to compare the Holocaust to this is plain silly.
Not sure how that is silly. It was a state sponsored ethnic cleansing like any other.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
PanzerJaeger
Not sure how that is silly. It was a state sponsored ethnic cleansing like any other.
So the Holocaust didn't kill about 6 million undesirables? Or is it OK, because those damned Commies got the superior Germans?
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
PanzerJaeger
What is false about that?
They were death camps. Or are you saying death was simply a 'punishment'?
CR
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
SwedishFish
So the Holocaust didn't kill about 6 million undesirables? Or is it OK, because those damned Commies got the superior Germans?
No I think you misunderstand me. I'm saying that both were instances of ethnic cleansing. The scale of the Holocaust was larger, but both involved state sanctioned murder and concentration camps.
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Originally Posted by CR
They were death camps. Or are you saying death was simply a 'punishment'?
Death is a punishment in the US, how would it be anything else in Nazi Germany?
In any event, concentration camps were not the same as death camps - according to Jewish scholars anyway.
I'm also having trouble finding where Haider said the camps were "only" punishment camps. Neither wiki nor its source includes "only".
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
PanzerJaeger
In any event, concentration camps were not the same as death camps - according to Jewish scholars anyway.
Yep. 'Dem Jews alright.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
PanzerJaeger
No I think you misunderstand me. I'm saying that both were instances of ethnic cleansing. The scale of the Holocaust was larger, but both involved state sanctioned murder and concentration camps.
Death is a punishment in the US, how would it be anything else in Nazi Germany?
In any event, concentration camps were not the same as death camps - according to Jewish scholars anyway.
Right. Not all camps were death camps. Many were just de-humanising work camps without the ovens or gas chambers.
I don't believe that Haider was saying the Holocaust was somehow diminished because of the german purges after the war - I think he was saying that, although the holocaust was massively more devastating that the ethnic cleansing of germans, the murderous ethnic cleansing of Germans was de-humanising and unjustifiable itself.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
TuffStuffMcGruff
I don't believe that Haider was saying the Holocaust was somehow diminished because of the german purges after the war - I think he was saying that, although the holocaust was massively more devastating that the ethnic cleansing of germans, the murderous ethnic cleansing of Germans was de-humanising and unjustifiable itself.
Yes. There's still a lot of resentment on both sides about the expulsions, and of course it is easy to make comparisons like that. That doesn't mean Haider was diminishing the Holocaust.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
PanzerJaeger
This is true. They certainly weren't sent there as a reward.
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[...]That doesn't mean Haider was diminishing the Holocaust.
LOL?
"Oh, it's true that the consentration camps were horrible, but they were only punishment camps. Why I am saying this? Well...it's true!"
:2thumbsup:
I guess, he was some sort of Captain Obvious.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
Viking
LOL?
"Oh, it's true that the consentration camps were horrible, but they were only punishment camps. Why I am saying this? Well...it's true!"
:2thumbsup:
I guess, he was some sort of Captain Obvious.
No, c'mon. Read the previous few posts, man.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
Viking
LOL?
"Oh, it's true that the consentration camps were horrible, but they were only punishment camps. Why I am saying this? Well...it's true!"
:2thumbsup:
I guess, he was some sort of Captain Obvious.
The exact quote, made in a debate in the Austrian parliament on bomb attacks on Romanies, was:
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'the punishment camps of National Socialism'
To which he later said that he meant to say "concentration camps".
As usual, a big fuss made over something as small as a passing reference.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
PanzerJaeger
The exact quote, made in a debate in the Austrian parliament on bomb attacks on Romanies, was:
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'the punishment camps of National Socialism'
To which he later said that he meant to say "concentration camps".
As usual, a big fuss made over something as small as a passing reference.
That puts it in a different light; though his selection of words more than hints at an underlying attitude.
EDIT: No wait..what the hell am I saying? The concentration camps were certainly not punishment camps. A punishment is what you get when you've done something "wrong"; and what the Jews did wrong was being Jews. There is of course the thing with relativity; but in the modern Western sense, a punishment camp is somewhere criminals are sent; not someone with the "wrong" ethnic background; which was what these camps were largely used for anyway. It so incredibly clearly hints toward the real opinions of this guy.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
Neither the Waffen-SS nor the Whermacht should be honored at all. Both committed atrocities - naturally so as they were institutions in a regime that condone and conducted atrocities on a horrific scale.
That the Waffen-SS fought harder is slightly more damning in my mind - their fanaticism in defense of a truly evil system is inexcusable.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
Alexander the Pretty Good
Neither the Waffen-SS nor the Whermacht should be honored at all. Both committed atrocities - naturally so as they were institutions in a regime that condone and conducted atrocities on a horrific scale.
The RAF and USAAF also committed atrocities, as well as the Red Army. We shouldn't honour them either, by this logic.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
I don't necessarily disagree with that. All served primarily to defend the interests of their respective states.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
Evil_Maniac From Mars
The RAF and USAAF also committed atrocities, as well as the Red Army. We shouldn't honour them either, by this logic.
They did not do them in service of a greater evil against mankind.
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Death is a punishment in the US, how would it be anything else in Nazi Germany?
You'll have to point out where the government has killed people for being Jewish.
CR