Israel: Murdering scientists?

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

so?
we did it with iraq too.
i see nothing wrong with this. israel is scared, since one nuke can literally wipe out about 1/4 of the country.
and with that looney as prez of iran, i wouldnt blame israel for being scared.

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You don't really need to be killing of their scientists though.

For a start Iran would never attack Israel with nukes unless their stupid due to the fact the moment a nuclear weapon heading towards Israel was detected Israel and America would throw so many back Iran would literally be wiped of the map, there would just be a glass crater.


besides Iran is years away from any form of nuclear power yet, and even then you should just do what you did with both Iraq and Syria if memory serves me correct, bomb their facilities. It would be a lot less costly and save innocent lives. I hardly doubt all these scientists are evil, more likely they're trying to get by in a country where there is little work for people of their profession.

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Originally Posted by lenin96

You know? How? Or do you not care about the killing of scientists who are suspected of making nuclear weopns, and I don't trust America with their nuclear weopons.

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I did not say i know, i said i am convinced.

If they won't stop by asking.

And we arn't prepared to start a military strike.

Then knocking off the eggheads in the hope of slowing down the program is the least bad option.

[options listed in order of preference]

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Originally Posted by Fragz

:laugh4:

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According to Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, Ahmadinejad's statement should be translated as:

The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).[11]

According to Cole, "Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to 'wipe Israel off the map' because no such idiom exists in Persian". Instead, "He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse."

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...there you go.

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I did not say i know, i said i am convinced.

If they won't stop by asking.

And we arn't prepared to start a military strike.

Then knocking off the eggheads in the hope of slowing down the program is the least bad option.

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So what gives you the right to decide who can have nuclear weapons and who cannot? I think the United States - Israel combination is so much more dangerous than an Iranian nuclear weapon. Iran is not close to producing a single nuclear weapon. Israel has 150.

Its been said countless times that the quote was mistranslated, noone is intrested in the truth, what we have constructed is a much more effective image for painting Iran in a bad light and a great excuse to continue aggressive action against Iran and an extra excuse for Israel to be so militarily inclined...

Personally i can't wait until Iran gets nuclear weapons!

When they do we may actually tone down our rhetoric against them, and that will give a chance for the pro western youth to elect a more liberal candidate, unfortunately all this threatening and axis of evil crap pushed them into the hands of more extreme elements...

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When they do we may actually tone down our rhetoric against them, and that will give a chance for the pro western youth to elect a more liberal candidate, unfortunately all this threatening and axis of evil crap pushed them into the hands of more extreme elements...

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I think LittleGrizzly has hit the nail on the head. Iran's citizens feel threatened (and rightly so) by the western threats against Iran. Luckily, there are elections again in 2009, and Ahmadinejad hasn't really made himself popular amongst the people. I personally hope that Khatami will become president again.

Obviously it all comes doen to the right of the stronger, one could say national darwinism, as long as Israel cannot be stopped, they do it, and some people think that is fine.
Personally i hope those people will end up being substantially weaker in something sometime soon and I can hope that because they cannot beat me up over the internet, nananana! ~;p

It's morally wrong to target scientists in my opinion, but as it's obvious Israel doesn't seek an all out war (it doesn't want to, and hasn't yet targeted military targets in Iran) it's their only shot at stalling the program other than diplomatic rhetoric.

And for what it's worth, I don't think America would throw nukes at Iran would the latter nuke Israel. Perhaps under the previous Administration, but under any other, including the present one, it would simply not do it.

:balloon2:

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Originally Posted by Hax

So what gives you the right to decide who can have nuclear weapons and who cannot? I think the United States - Israel combination is so much more dangerous than an Iranian nuclear weapon. Iran is not close to producing a single nuclear weapon. Israel has 150.

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i do.

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Originally Posted by Romanus

I also heard Israelies eat palestinian babies for breakfast.

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<--- I wonder who's second account this one is :rolleyes:




I think all countries employ 'tactical psychopaths' in their secret services and consequently most countries end up assassinating innocents. I bet Israel does it, the UK does it, France does it, hell for all that we know maybe even Liechtenstein does it!

To me the article is pure fiction of course. It makes sense for Israel to do it, it matches their rather remorseless agenda so someone just wrote an article pretending that have real information.

I believe that since some 'geniouses' gave Israel nuclear capabilities in the past, the nuclear arming of its neighbors is inevitable and probably for the best since a 'balance of terror' will be established that will make all involved parties less trigger-happy.

...of maybe Iran and Israel will be turned to glass which sometimes, late at nights, sounds like an improvement.

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Originally Posted by tibilicus

You don't really need to be killing of their scientists though.

For a start Iran would never attack Israel with nukes unless their stupid due to the fact the moment a nuclear weapon heading towards Israel was detected Israel and America would throw so many back Iran would literally be wiped of the map, there would just be a glass crater.


besides Iran is years away from any form of nuclear power yet, and even then you should just do what you did with both Iraq and Syria if memory serves me correct, bomb their facilities. It would be a lot less costly and save innocent lives. I hardly doubt all these scientists are evil, more likely they're trying to get by in a country where there is little work for people of their profession.

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you want to leave thousands of lives to chance?

o ya....
article

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Originally Posted by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Our dear Imam said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. Is it possible to create a new front in the heart of an old front. This would be a defeat and whoever accepts the legitimacy of this regime [Israel] has in fact, signed the defeat of the Islamic world. Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. I have no doubt that the new wave that has started in Palestine, and we witness it in the Islamic world too, will eliminate this disgraceful stain from the Islamic world. But we must be aware of tricks.

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Originally Posted by rasoforos

I think all countries employ 'tactical psychopaths' in their secret services and consequently most countries end up assassinating innocents. I bet Israel does it, the UK does it, France does it, hell for all that we know maybe even Liechtenstein does it!

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actually if you knew anything about the IDF special forces, "tactical psychopaths" are not allowed in. no criminals are allowed into the IDF.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Israel is based on Jews first (the chosen people, after all) and everything else second. No other life is worth anything if it helps protect a Jew.

SO, they assassinate Scientists. Is that really so surprising or such a big deal? Thousands are locked in an open prison to punish the fanatical terrorists that live amongst them. At least picking off some top egg heads might actually work.

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this entire conversation is ironic, since i just finished reading the book "Raid on the Sun" which was the story of how israel denied Saddam the bomb through assassinations and finally the famous raid.
fascinating story.
before we bombed the reactor, we took out key iraqi scientists, which delayed the iraqi project so we had time to get ready for the attack.
but hey, it worked, and saddam never got the bomb! plus after that foreign scientists were scared to work for iraq.

im going to put outs israels view very plainly:
israel cannot afford to take chances on this issue, just like they didnt take chances with saddam.
whether that looney in teharan actually means to destroy israel, we cant take that chance. its almost suicide if we do.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

I'm all for it.

I am convinced that iran pursues a nuclear weapons program & I do not trust them to possess it.

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I don't trust your country with the power it has, especially as it has the track record of being the most violent nation on the planet.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

im going to put outs israels view very plainly:
israel cannot afford to take chances on this issue, just like they didnt take chances with saddam.
whether that looney in teharan actually means to destroy israel, we cant take that chance. its almost suicide if we do.

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This is a fiction perpetuated to justify internal repression and external aggression.

i love it how you like to claim fact as fiction.

answer me this:
if you had a steak, and there was a 50% chance that it was poisoned, would you eat it?

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Originally Posted by rasoforos

<--- I wonder who's second account this one is :rolleyes:

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I'm not sure, who's should it be?

I just presumed both sides would be doing this sort of thing, not surprising at all. As much as I believe rules are necessary in war, I hardly think a few assassinations are so horrific they should be condemned completely.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

i love it how you like to claim fact as fiction.

answer me this:
if you had a steak, and there was a 50% chance that it was poisoned, would you eat it?

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No - but then i wouldn't shoot the butcher, the milkmaid, the chef, the waiter and half the diners just to be on the safe side...

After WW2 whilst we are pretending to capture Nazi war criminals the majority were being spirited away by the Allies' secret services. To some, the ends always will justify the means.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Idaho

I don't trust your country with the power it has, especially as it has the track record of being the most violent nation on the planet.

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which is my country?

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Originally Posted by Idaho

This is a fiction perpetuated to justify internal repression and external aggression.

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that 'fiction' is perpetuated in no small part by public military parades where ballistic missiles are daubed with slogans such as "death to israel".

that is good enough for me, and it appears to be justification enough for israel too.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

No - but then i wouldn't shoot the butcher, the milkmaid, the chef, the waiter and half the diners just to be on the safe side...

After WW2 whilst we are pretending to capture Nazi war criminals the majority were being spirited away by the Allies' secret services. To some, the ends always will justify the means.

~:smoking:

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but i would shoot the person who tried to poison me....

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

No - but then i wouldn't shoot the butcher, the milkmaid, the chef, the waiter and half the diners just to be on the safe side...

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If you look at the most recent numbers 1/3 of the casualties was collatoral damage (what a horrible word) but let's not forget that it's one of the most densely populated regions in the world, where over 50% of the population is under 18. Israel obviously goes to great lenghts to prevent them, and let's not even get started about Hamas using civilians as human shields while hiding with a handycam.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

but i would shoot the person who tried to poison me....

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If you know who they are.

Wouldn't life be simple if they had neon signs pointing at them, their motives were utterly selfish and they lived far from anyone else.

Letting a gun off in a crowd and blaming teh crowd for getting shot is a poor excuse.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

you want to leave thousands of lives to chance?

o ya....

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You seriously believe Iran will get even remotely close to developing a nuclear weapon? Phuuleeezeeee..
The fact is they are years away from even having the remote capability of nuclear weapons and even then a nice bombing run over their facilities should sort it.

Israel's wasting money paying people to knock other people of, they could be in and out of Iran in minutes with Iran facilities in tatters, because lets be honest Irans air force quite frankly sucks compared to the IAF.

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Originally Posted by tibilicus

You seriously believe Iran will get even remotely close to developing a nuclear weapon? Phuuleeezeeee..
The fact is they are years away from even having the remote capability of nuclear weapons and even then a nice bombing run over their facilities should sort it.

Israel's wasting money paying people to knock other people of, they could be in and out of Iran in minutes with Iran facilities in tatters, because lets be honest Irans air force quite frankly sucks compared to the IAF.

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the most dangerous thing in the world is to underestimate the capability of your enemies.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

What Israel is doing is terrorism.

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Probably not, Strike, as there is no "terror" component. Now, if assassinations were done in some "splashy" manner, or relatives were being killed to force compliance/leaving the program, then you would clearly have a terrorism scenario. So far, Israel (assuming this article is accurate) is not targeting the innocent, only those actively involved in a program that threaten's Israel's existence. Now, you can attack the morality of such actions on a number of levels without using the T word -- and many here will.

Note: I am well aware that absent, or even in the event of, a declared war between Iran and Israel, the targeting of these scientists would be viewed by many as criminal.

The scientests are still civilians. Therefore it's still terrorism. Validated terrorism but terrorism none the less.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

This is a fiction perpetuated to justify internal repression and external aggression.

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Fiction? Perhaps so, at least since the 1960s, but not at the outset. Israeli paranoia may no longer be justified, save as the kind of political tool you suggest, but at the outset of the state, pretty much everybody around them WAS out to get them.

Once part of the cultural mind-set, paranoia is also notoriously persistent. So the "fiction" you are suggesting may be more of a self-fulfilling prophecy than a calculated political tool.

If whacking some top Iranian nuclear scientists delays Tel Aviv from turning into a radioactive glass-lined crater by a few years, it's well worth it. Iran has no need for "peaceful" nuclear energy, its energy needs are covered by other means. So any nuclear scientist working for Ahmajenidad or the mullahs is knowingly accepting the risk of being associated with production of weapons of mass destruction.

They're just getting what they deserve, only it's too quick for my tastes. Slow and painful would be more appropriate, IMHO. :skull:

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

The scientests are still civilians. Therefore it's still terrorism. Validated terrorism but terrorism none the less.

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"Terrorism" has as its goal the specific targeting of innocents as a means of creating fear and repugnance in order to effect a political agenda.

Israel takes the stance that these individuals are NOT innocents, but actively engaged in a war against Israel and therefore legitimate military targets. Israel is not seeking to inculcate fear or generate repugnance on the part of Iran. It is trying to kill key personnel. In their eyes, it is little different from a sniper singling out an officer on the battlefield.

Please note, I am ONLY disputing your use of the term terrorism, which I believe gets too watered down. I am setting aside the morality or immorality of Israel's alleged actions in this as a separate question.