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Members of the Russian communist party and "others", meaning those who are not members of the Russian communist party which is literally entire population of Russia, received funding for "various things" which include going to toilet, building bridges, buying Lego... The essence of conspiracy theories - anyone doing anything is potentially a Freemason (or Templar or Illuminati or Pokemon).Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Narrow it down a bit, this as it is wouldn't work for a politician...
It was a direct reference to the Bolshevik party and the politburo, I thought that would be obviously implied and not the Soviet Lego builders alliance. Funding as in overthrowing the Russian government and installing themselves as leaders.
I've got it now. Not that I agree with you, but I understand what you're trying to say...
The idea of people funding a revolution isn't necessarily hard to believe. Many aspects of the grand conspiracy are in fact, not that hard to believe.
It is just that crucial step from completely believable actions to grand conspiracy which is the biggest. It is the latter I admittedly not a convert of, however, many of the things are believable.
After all, there were things like Operation Northwoods, which are simply just facts, it just depends on making that step to the whole grand conspiracy from these things.
ever seen those U-Haul trucks with the little info tidbits? i walked by one of them today from class and realized i learned more from that than i did the history channel. :smash:
Oh, he will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
Right...Quote:
There is a big cabal involving many societies such as freemasonry in others which would focus its power on creating a New World, usually dictated under totalaritarian principles and even then, these forces fight amongst themselves in trying to produce this aim. Basically, it is like the "Hidden War" as on the surface, the ignorance of many is that it simply does not exist while to others, it is the whole of their existence, on many levels.
Wait, there's some kind of underground religious war going on and I wasn't informed?!Quote:
I saw on the television that the Buddist lodge fights the ultra-Catholic Sions over control of Central Asian oil and pipelines. It says so in the Chartres Cathedral labyrinth. The Sion lodge got you real good when they blew up those Buddha's in Afghanistan together with the Kabul Muslim Cabal.
CR
It is certainly true that many important people were Freemasons during the historical period 1939-1945. However, I have never heard any evidence whatsoever that Hitler (or any high ranking member of the Nazi party) was a Freemason. And I challenge you to document your statement from a reliable source. Nothing personal, but you are misinformed about this, and once you research it please have the character to stand corrected.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
I get your point about "people at the top" not telling the "people on the bottom" what's actually happening, but it would be rather hard to fight a war without soldiers. Wouldn't the run-of-the-mill Masons (like myself) be soldiers? Also, it's hard to get people to fight unless you tell them what they're fighting for; by no means would it be imposible to manipulate me, but I certainly wouldn't fight in a Pseudo-Masonic war against people of a different attitudes or religions for the purpose of controling the world.
More importantly, as far as I can tell, (based on 15 years of experience), there are no "people at the top or bottom" in freemasonry; everyone is consider a brother and an equal. For example, I would not be at all intimidated to sit in lodge with a Prime Minster, a famous person, or whomever; I would just see them as a brother and an equal, and that's how they'd want to be seen. In 15 years I have never heard of a single case where someone at the "top" gave someone at the "bottom" an order. Moreover such a thing would be hard to justify because we don't follow leaders, rather, we follow our own principles, and the principles of the Masons whom I have had the honour of knowing lead us toward acts of charity and brotherhood, not toward acts of war, manipulation, or control.
Or that is what you want us to believe...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurando
Hard to see the dark side is...
And now, seriously, have you ever had a chance to talk with a prime minister or someone powerful? Was there back-scratching :beam:? And don't try to weasel out of the question, certainly your Org brothers are more important than some Masons... :laugh4:
I would severely doubt that Hitler was a freemason on the grounds that Fascism and National Socialism saw the State as being the sole loyalty of the individual. Any outside loyalties were not tolerated except insofar as they were necessary for the survival of the regime. For an example see Franco's absolute obsession with rooting out Freemasonry in Spain.
Read Mein Kampf:Quote:
Originally Posted by CountArach
The general pacifistic paralysis of the national instinct of self preservation begun by Freemasonry in the circles of the so-called intelligentsia is transmitted to the broad masses and above all to the bourgeoisie by the activity of the big papers which today are always Jewish.Hitler closed down the German lodges after 1933 and persecuted some of their leadership. In his eyes they represented yet another breed of 'rootless cosmopolitanism'. It was only in his talks with Hermann Rauschning that Hitler praised the Masonic model of organisation which, he said, he wanted to copy for the nazi party:
They are something of a priestly nobility. They developed an esoteric doctrine not merely formulated, but imparted through symbols and mysteries in degrees of initiation. The hierarchical organization and the initiation through symbolic rites, that is to say, without bothering the brain but by working on the imagination through magic and the symbols of a cult, all this has a dangerous element, and this element I have taken over.Conspiracy theories are usually based on lies or misunderstandings which the believers never bother to check.
Thank you Adrian, I was just going with an example I was more familiar with :bow:
Wow Adrian thanks for posting, that is extremely trippy, but thankfully it is also completely erroneous!Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
I say it's "trippy" because a few months ago I did some research on Hermann Rauschning after I read a weird quote atributed to Hitler on a totally unrelated topic... I had no idea that Rauschning's Conversations with Hitler had touched upon Freemasonry as well. But here's the deal:
It seems that even though Rauschning's work is still widely quoted both in print and on the net; the actual fact is that historians have long-since proven that the Conversations With Hitler document was [and is] a complete fake.
See the following commentaries from The Journal of Historical Review:
Conversations with Hitler Hoax
Swiss Historian Exposes Anti-Hitler Rauschning Memoir as Fraudulent
"Swiss historian Wolfgang Haenel spent five years diligently investigating the memoir before announcing his findings in 1983 at a revisionist history conference in West Germany. The renowned Conversations with Hitler, he declared are a total fraud."
It amazes me that a document which has been comprehensivly debunked is still so widely quoted. I guess it's a good case in point, as you said: "conspiracy theories are usually based on lies or misunderstandings which the believers never bother to check."
On the other hand, the quote you made from Mein Kampf is undesputedly atributed to Hitler, but it seems pretty shakey ground for any one to build a conspiricy upon.
im not saying you are wrong or anything, but those links you gave i find are shady, since they are from the IHR, which is a notorious Holocaust denying organization.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurando
Easy now. I am not the one trying to prove a conspiracy. There seems to be doubt about Rauschning, that's right, though this Hänel fellow should keep better company if he, in turn, wants to be taken seriously. As a historian I wouldn't want to be associated with the site you linked to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurando
I guess in Rauschning's favour we should say that as a former nazi and Hitler admirer, he knew the regime from the inside. He wrote a very good analysis of it, Die Revolution des Nihilismus (1938), from which he quotes in his Parisian book Hitler m'a dit (1939). Even if the exact quotes from the latter are dubious, I wouldn't discard the book entirely.
And it doesn't refute my main point that Hitler hated freemasons. They were a popular scapegoat. Erich Ludendorff blamed them for losing WWI in 1918.
I once saw a documentary that exposed clear links between masons Rauschning, Hitler, Hänel, Hänsel and Gretel.
It was very compelling. :book:
“The Prieuré de Sion has never existed except in the imagination of the madman who wrote about it and claimed to be a member. Dan Brown can keep on writing amateurish books about it”
Technically it did. The 2 people who invented it were surrealist so they created a reality. :laugh4:
Hehe, I should have added a few smileys to my post, I defently wasn't implying that you were trying to prove a conspiracy. Not your style, do so, or mine to give you the high hat. :beam:Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
As you say it seems clear that Hitler had a problem with Masons; though thankfully not to the extent that Franco did or things might have gotten really really ugly for some of the Allied POWs, and many others in the mix.
I appreciate the criticism of the IHR, they have no credibility in anyone's eyes + I should have provided better links because there are some. It just seems like the modern day denier element have taken a shine to the fact that Haenel debunked Rauschning in the earily 1980's + I think the Zeitgeschichtliche Forschungsstelle Ingolstadt where Haenel presented his findings was perhaps a for-runner of this type of denal jive also; so your point is well taken.
:wall:
Man this stuff is so frustrating, I never know what to think when it comes to the net. Seems like the only thing which is certain is that Hitler was positively not a Mason. For anything else I am just going to go with my own personal experience of being a Mason and my close association with others who are. My eye is not all seeing like the one on the dollar bill, but from what my eyes have seen, things are on the level: no conspiracies, no world domination, and no uncertainty on my part to say so.
I know. In revisionist circles 'five years of study' could mean anything. I have always known that Rauschning's book was more impressionistic than literally accurate, but I didn't know it had been unmasked as a deliberate fake. I don't have the Hänel book obviously, but I happen to have the original Hitler m'a dit in my library. At first I thought it was rather fishy when Hänel wrote that Rauschning claimed to have had 'over a hundred conversations' with Hitler, because nowhere in the book does Rauschning claim that number. But apparently this is what he said to his Paris editor Reves, who confirmed this to Hänel personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurando
What is even more puzzling, in hindsight, is the little Goethe quote that precedes the Foreword:
Ist es schatten, ist es wirklichkeit?
Wie wird mein pudel lang und breit!
Is it shadow, is it reality?
How my poodle is growing tall and strong!
If the conversations in the book are not reality, they certainly are reality's shadow. Rauschning seems to have had an uncanning ability to gauge Hitler, his motifs, his plans and schemes. Take page 155, where he mimicks Hitler's attitude toward Russia: I may, as a last resort, decide to ally with Russia, but it should be a surprise, like a good poker hand. And even if I do, nothing will stop me from attacking Russia regardless, as soon as it suits me.
I've looked into the more serious sources, such as Der Spiegel and Stern. Mind you, Stern has a dented reputation as well - remember the fake Hitler diaries? So I wouldn't easily accept their judgement either. But both weeklies are very firm in their conviction that Hänel did a good job. And several academic history sites as well as acclaimed historians like Ian Kershaw appear to be convinced by Hänel 's research.
Must have been on the History Channel. Kurando and his millions of freemason friends are all in on this thing as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Now Louis, about that handshake of yours.. :inquisitive:
Wolfgang Hänel wrote (according to various reviews I saw) that Rauschning took a passage from Guy de Maupassant's short story Le Horla and put the words in Hitler's mouth. Apparently this is the passage where Hitler claimed to see the devil.
The devil's name in the story is 'le Horla', a name construed by Maupassant himself and probably derived from 'hors de là' (beyond there) or 'hors la loi' (beyond the law).
In Rauschning's book on page 284 it says Hitler 'called for help' one night and, perched on the side of his bed and shaking in panic, muttered: 'C'est lui, c'est lui. Il est venu ici!' (It's him, it's him. He has come here!). A few moments later he supposedly cried out: 'Là! Là! dans le coin. Qui est là?' ('There! There! in the corner. Who is that?').
Well, the passage in Maupassant is not the same, just slightly similar. It reads: 'Le Horla... c'est lui... le Horla... il est venu !...' ('The Horla... it's him... the Horla... he has come!...').
Hitler's words in Rauschning may be fake as Hänel claims, but it is highly improbable that this passage was taken from Maupassant.
Handshake? What handshake? :huh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
Do you mean the supersecret handshake where one's right pinky ticks the backside of the other's thumb trice? No, never heard of it, I'm afriad.
psst...Kurando: Adrian's onto us. He's started digging. Soon he'll discover the prory of Sion is real after all. We must dispose of the meddlesome pest immediately.
:egypt:
Got history channel international a couple of days ago after our digital tv provider decided to reshuffle the channels. It's not that bad, good for a lazy afternoon. If I want history I'll read a book.
If I want history, I make it. :smug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanus
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