Then explain the fact that the killing of Ahl al-Kitab is a crime in Sharia?Quote:
Nope, by the time it was written the muslims were fighting an offensive campaign.
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Then explain the fact that the killing of Ahl al-Kitab is a crime in Sharia?Quote:
Nope, by the time it was written the muslims were fighting an offensive campaign.
In fairness, that earlier thread was discussing the source of Islamist terrorism. The speech linked at the beginning of this thread is about the roots of suicide terrorism, which is not even slightly restricted to Islamists. So, informative, but not parallel.
P.S.: Frag, do you have an opinion on the the OP, or is it your intent to turn this into another Fragony-declares-Islam-the-root-of-all-evil thread?
The problem is just this thing... the suicide bombing was the most efficient method on bombing... if we count the resulting fatality, compared with the loss of the perpetator....
And they can doing it while infiltrating, and more importantly, they don't require extraction.....
According to the Jamaah Islamiyah's method of terrorism, they are fairly rare, but prized for their "shock" values... Yeah, outside of Islamic terrorists, historically, certain small nation that was recently rebelled from mine also employ suicide bombing, even if they are Catholics...
How can you have this discussion without the Islam? It's impossible to deny the numbers he brings up, but there are different types of terrorism, he only looks into suicide attacks. To say that there is no religious motivation when looking at terrorism as a whole is being delusional.
P.S.: Frag, do you have an opinion on the the OP, or is it your intent to turn this into another Fragony-declares-Islam-the-root-of-all-evil thread?
yeahyeah
Then explain the fact that the killing of Ahl al-Kitab is a crime in Sharia?
I have absolutely no idea. Should I?
Starting to look like a Troll...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Not my intention, we are discussing that there might be more to suicide bombings, I am being perfectly on-topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by alh_p
There is zero basis for this in the Qur'an.
^- biggest joke of the century. Simply not true. What Lemur posted is impossible to refute, but it's just one small aspect of a much bigger thing.
Allow me rephrase:
There is no basis in the Qur'an for the murder of innocent people. Which is what terrorism is, isn't it?
Actually the phrases on the Qur'an is as it has been written... they call for killing "Kaffir" when they are strong... but everyone must look to their background and hidden meaning of these words....Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Oh yeah, and Qur'an treats everyone who doesn't believe in their faith as "infidel", and thereby NOT AN INNOCENT... Come on Hax... you never experience real fanatical muslims threatening your life, don't you... :wink:
Epic reading/listening comprehension fail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Allow me to isolate a relevant sentence, to minimize the chance of you misinterpreting it:
Before 2003, the largest perpetrator of suicide terrorism was the Tamil Tigers, a Marxist group. It's also used by the PKK, a Kurdish/Marxist terror outfit. Suicide terrorism is popular, Pape argues, because it is lethally effective.
This doesn't mean that terrorists don't despise Western values or don't, in their minds, hope to restore Islamic rule, it just means that those things don't matter nearly as much as is presumed and don't figure centrally into the history of suicide violence.
Wrong, the Qur'an has a special place for "other people of the book": Jews and Christians, unlike polytheists and the other types of (non-monotheist) religions which existed on the Arabian peninsula in Muhamad's time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Wolf
Depends on what they percieve to be a crime, not believing in Allah is a crime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Can I just point out that neither the Provisional IRA or ETA included anything to do with Islam in their agenda? yet they use terrorism...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
*sigh* again: "There is no compulsion in religion, Truth stands out clear from error."Quote:
Depends on what they percieve to be a crime, not believing in Allah is a crime.
This is based on the fact that Muhammed and his companions were threatened by the pagans of Mecca. This has very little to do with how Muslims nowadays should treat non-believers.Quote:
Actually the phrases on the Qur'an is as it has been written... they call for killing "Kaffir" when they are strong...
Which, in countries like Iran is extended to Zoroastrians, and in India to Hindus. In Samarkand, Hindus, Buddhist, Zoroastrians, Jews and Nestorian Christians lived together in peace. It's not impossible, people.Quote:
Wrong, the Qur'an has a special place for "other people of the book": Jews and Christians, unlike polytheists and the other types of (non-monotheist) religions which existed on the Arabian peninsula in Muhamad's time.
No, that's pretty normal. I've never once been threatened by Muslims, not here and not in Islamic countries.Quote:
Come on Hax... you never experience real fanatical muslims threatening your life, don't you...
As ever Fragony, you only remember what you want to. Look at this, from a UK teaching website (of all things!), now this has obviously passed through the UK government's interpretation, but it's not like finding the root source would be a good idea on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Al Qaida strongly opposes western influences and ideas that it regards as 'un-Islamic'. Notably, it is explicitly opposed to democratic principles. It claims that democracy is a rival 'religion' and that principles such as freedom of speech and freedom of religion are equivalent to apostasy, punishable by death. Al Qaida's opposition to 'un-Islamic' ideas extends to condemnation of Muslim religious practices of which they disapprove. In particular, Al Qaida supports a narrow interpretation of Sunnism, the largest denomination of Islam, and is violently opposed to other Islamic denominations which it regards as 'infidel', as well as to Sunni Muslims whom it regards as insufficiently pious
Please don't make me point out to you again that this is Al-Qaida and not all Muslims Fragony.
Hax yu take out one I take out hundreds. There is this dualism to Islam in it's historical context. There is the Mohammed of Mekka, the patient and spiritual leader, and there is the Mohammed of Medina, who is a cruel and savage warlord. Focus all you want on the first, but that doesn't make the latter just disappear. they are both aspects of the Islam. You can clearly read (did you actually read it?) how he reacted when he wasn't welcomed as the next messias. Some say Hitler went nuts when he was rejected from arts-school.
Please don't make me point out to you again that this is Al-Qaida and not all Muslims Fragony.
Please don't let me point out that I am not an idiot and very much aware of that.
Well, you have and do continue to fool me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
"The" Islam doesn't exist.Quote:
they are both aspects of the Islam.
You are way too concerned with this tiny minority which is widely rejected by the majority of Muslims and you use this minority to condemn the 99 percent who have no intention of opposing anyone whatsoever. Worse than that, you are advocating a view which places all the Middle Eastern countries on one line, half of whom despise eachother and act like they have some shared collective with other Islamic countries to take over the world.
Iran has actively assisted the Northern Alliance in bringing down the Taliban regime, and yet people like you go so far as to believe that they somehow share the same opinion. Do I need to recount Osama bin Laden's statements on Shi'ites? Do I need to recount what Mohammed Khatami said about terrorism? Do I need to cite Muhammed al-Qudri?
Stop. Behaving. Like. There. Is. A. Pan-Islamic. Collective.
Just wait until I start to dislike you.Quote:
Originally Posted by alh_p
Iran has actively assisted the Northern Alliance in bringing down the Taliban regime, and yet people like you go so far as to believe that they somehow share the same opinion.
That's what you say I say, but I never said it. There are many Islams, sunni, soefi, shiite being the mainstream ones, that isn't exactly new to me.
Still no "zero basis". There is a basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Well yes there is “some” basis in the Qur'an for “killing people”. There would be; considering much of it is an ill-disguised “hagiography of the first Arabic hegemony” if you will. Way back when people weren't as concerned with the theological/legal implications of inserting a chronicle of a series of petty wars and raids in the canon.
That, however, does not mean that Muslim theology of today states you can *use* it as basis to justify a murder or terrorist attack or whatever. So assuming that you stick with current interpretations; the statement that there is no basis in Qur'an for terrorism of any sort is still very much valid. (Because what the Qur'an justifies or not is subject to change to the interpretation of its content as well as of how applicable said content is to present day/moral dilemma.)
EDIT 2: Notice how at least according to Al Qaeda and co (the videos cited/displayed in the OP video) Islamic theology is at best tangential to the justification of terrorism. Their reasoning is very much political.
I actually agree with you on this point: religion (Islam) does play a role in the actions of Al-Qaida, Hamas and other Muslims groups that use terrorism. What gets me riled/frustrated is that you focus on this one element to the apprarent exclusion of all others. Typically, a particular interpretation of religion (in this case Islam) offers a legitimisation for action which actually serves less theological goals -e.g. the ejection of American troops from the Arabian peninsula or the defeat of Israel. Motivation for actions does not come from Islam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I don't, I am perfectly capable of making that distinction. And I hate having to explain that to intelligent people.Quote:
Originally Posted by alh_p
And yet you do only really mention Islam. Going through the basics with me might be a safer bet :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I do not think this message was the one intended. As long as you got a holy book, you got basis for things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
Islam is the only one worth mentioning because it's the only one that is subject of leftist cultural relativation. When christians do strange things they laugh at it and sabotage whatever they can find, but when muslims want whatever they want whatever it takes our government will talk Are you islamic yourself, because you can rest assure that there is 0% hostility coming from here.Quote:
Originally Posted by alh_p
I don't know what it is like to live in the Netherlands, but you have no authority to speak so broadly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
No, I'm what you might call a pedantic (atheist) Left-wing relativist. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
If your problem is not with Muslims and Islam, then it might help to articulate that more clearly.
I've looked at these two sentences several times, and I still can't puzzle out that they mean. What is "relativation"? Can anybody diagram the following: "when muslims want whatever they want whatever it takes our government will talk"? It looks like a sentence, but it really isn't!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Frag, are you drunk?
Perfectly fine where I live. But yes I can absolutely speak broadly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking
I guess it must be something I spelled wrong(ly) but you understood anyway. No I am not drunk, are you perfectly sure you aren't either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur