The Logic and Strategy of Suicide Terrorism

[al Roumi]

How can you have this discussion without the Islam? It's impossible to deny the numbers he brings up, but there are different types of terrorism, he only looks into suicide attacks. To say that there is no religious motivation when looking at terrorism as a whole is being delusional.

P.S.: Frag, do you have an opinion on the the OP, or is it your intent to turn this into another Fragony-declares-Islam-the-root-of-all-evil thread?

yeahyeah

Then explain the fact that the killing of Ahl al-Kitab is a crime in Sharia?

I have absolutely no idea. Should I?

Starting to look like a Troll...

[Fragony]

Troll.

Not my intention, we are discussing that there might be more to suicide bombings, I am being perfectly on-topic.

There is zero basis for this in the Qur'an.

^- biggest joke of the century. Simply not true. What Lemur posted is impossible to refute, but it's just one small aspect of a much bigger thing.

[Hax]

Allow me rephrase:

There is no basis in the Qur'an for the murder of innocent people. Which is what terrorism is, isn't it?

[Cute Wolf]

Allow me rephrase:

There is no basis in the Qur'an for the murder of innocent people. Which is what terrorism is, isn't it?

Actually the phrases on the Qur'an is as it has been written... they call for killing "Kaffir" when they are strong... but everyone must look to their background and hidden meaning of these words....

Oh yeah, and Qur'an treats everyone who doesn't believe in their faith as "infidel", and thereby NOT AN INNOCENT... Come on Hax... you never experience real fanatical muslims threatening your life, don't you...

[al Roumi]

Actually the phrases on the Qur'an is as it has been written... they call for killing "Kaffir" when they are strong... but everyone must look to their background and hidden meaning of these words....

Oh yeah, and Qur'an treats everyone who doesn't believe in their faith as "infidel", and thereby NOT AN INNOCENT... Come on Hax... you never experience real fanatical muslims threatening your life, don't you...

Wrong, the Qur'an has a special place for "other people of the book": Jews and Christians, unlike polytheists and the other types of (non-monotheist) religions which existed on the Arabian peninsula in Muhamad's time.

[Fragony]

Allow me rephrase:

There is no basis in the Qur'an for the murder of innocent people. Which is what terrorism is, isn't it?

Depends on what they percieve to be a crime, not believing in Allah is a crime.

[Hax]

Depends on what they percieve to be a crime, not believing in Allah is a crime.

*sigh* again: "There is no compulsion in religion, Truth stands out clear from error."

Actually the phrases on the Qur'an is as it has been written... they call for killing "Kaffir" when they are strong...

This is based on the fact that Muhammed and his companions were threatened by the pagans of Mecca. This has very little to do with how Muslims nowadays should treat non-believers.

Wrong, the Qur'an has a special place for "other people of the book": Jews and Christians, unlike polytheists and the other types of (non-monotheist) religions which existed on the Arabian peninsula in Muhamad's time.

Which, in countries like Iran is extended to Zoroastrians, and in India to Hindus. In Samarkand, Hindus, Buddhist, Zoroastrians, Jews and Nestorian Christians lived together in peace. It's not impossible, people.

Come on Hax... you never experience real fanatical muslims threatening your life, don't you...

No, that's pretty normal. I've never once been threatened by Muslims, not here and not in Islamic countries.

[Fragony]

Hax yu take out one I take out hundreds. There is this dualism to Islam in it's historical context. There is the Mohammed of Mekka, the patient and spiritual leader, and there is the Mohammed of Medina, who is a cruel and savage warlord. Focus all you want on the first, but that doesn't make the latter just disappear. they are both aspects of the Islam. You can clearly read (did you actually read it?) how he reacted when he wasn't welcomed as the next messias. Some say Hitler went nuts when he was rejected from arts-school.

Please don't make me point out to you again that this is Al-Qaida and not all Muslims Fragony.

Please don't let me point out that I am not an idiot and very much aware of that.

[al Roumi]

Hax yu take out one I take out hundreds. There is this dualism to Islam in it's historical context. There is the Mohammed of Mekka, the patient and spiritual leader, and there is the Mohammed of Medina, who is a cruel and savage warlord. Focus all you want on the first, but that doesn't make the latter just disappear. they are both aspects of the Islam. You can clearly read (did you actually read it?) how he reacted when he wasn't welcomed as the next messias. Some say Hitler went nuts when he was rejected from arts-school.

Please don't make me point out to you again that this is Al-Qaida and not all Muslims Fragony.

Please don't let me point out that I am not an idiot and very much aware of that.

Well, you have and do continue to fool me.

[al Roumi]

Depends on what they percieve to be a crime, not believing in Allah is a crime.

As ever Fragony, you only remember what you want to. Look at this, from a UK teaching website (of all things!), now this has obviously passed through the UK government's interpretation, but it's not like finding the root source would be a good idea on this.

Al Qaida strongly opposes western influences and ideas that it regards as 'un-Islamic'. Notably, it is explicitly opposed to democratic principles. It claims that democracy is a rival 'religion' and that principles such as freedom of speech and freedom of religion are equivalent to apostasy, punishable by death. Al Qaida's opposition to 'un-Islamic' ideas extends to condemnation of Muslim religious practices of which they disapprove. In particular, Al Qaida supports a narrow interpretation of Sunnism, the largest denomination of Islam, and is violently opposed to other Islamic denominations which it regards as 'infidel', as well as to Sunni Muslims whom it regards as insufficiently pious

Please don't make me point out to you again that this is Al-Qaida and not all Muslims Fragony.

[Viking]

Allow me rephrase:

There is no basis in the Qur'an for the murder of innocent people. Which is what terrorism is, isn't it?

Still no "zero basis". There is a basis.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well yes there is “some” basis in the Qur'an for “killing people”. There would be; considering much of it is an ill-disguised “hagiography of the first Arabic hegemony” if you will. Way back when people weren't as concerned with the theological/legal implications of inserting a chronicle of a series of petty wars and raids in the canon.

That, however, does not mean that Muslim theology of today states you can *use* it as basis to justify a murder or terrorist attack or whatever. So assuming that you stick with current interpretations; the statement that there is no basis in Qur'an for terrorism of any sort is still very much valid. (Because what the Qur'an justifies or not is subject to change to the interpretation of its content as well as of how applicable said content is to present day/moral dilemma.)

EDIT 2: Notice how at least according to Al Qaeda and co (the videos cited/displayed in the OP video) Islamic theology is at best tangential to the justification of terrorism. Their reasoning is very much political.

[Viking]

That, however, does not mean that Muslim theology of today states you can *use* it as basis to justify a murder or terrorist attack or whatever. So assuming that you stick with current interpretations; the statement that there is no basis in Qur'an for terrorism of any sort is still very much valid. (Because what the Qur'an justifies or not is subject to change to the interpretation of its content as well as of how applicable said content is to present day/moral dilemma.)

I do not think this message was the one intended. As long as you got a holy book, you got basis for things.

[Meneldil]

Allow me rephrase:

There is no basis in the Qur'an for the murder of innocent people. Which is what terrorism is, isn't it?

Except that terrorists don't think their targets are innocent...

I don't want to sound like a troll, but what you think about the Qu'ran is highly irrelevant, as long as people justify terrorism with it. You can claim "the Qu'ran doesn't condone the murder of innocents" (which it does) as much as you want, but then what? What happens next? Since you're neither an authority among muslim scholars nor Al-Qaeda mastermind, your opinion, while respectable, is worthless.

Now, that's slightly OT, but why do you feel the need to defend islam whenever the topic pops up? It's the only religious that is even more reactionary, conservative, violent, untolerant and totalitarian than christianism. I mean, being worse than Christianism should be an achievement in itself. Yet the same people who - rightfully - bash christians whenever possible raise shields as soon as the buzzword Islam appears...

[Hax]

Because there is widespread anti-Islamice sentiment nowadays.

That and I won't stand aside and do nothing when people are harmed, verbally or physically.

Now, that's slightly OT, but why do you feel the need to defend islam whenever the topic pops up?

Because Islam is being blamed by some people for the actions of a few lunatics. That, and the fact that I wager that I know more about Islam in both historical and theological contexts than most other people do on this forum.

[Fragony]

Cool, gimme that defensive war, historically speaking.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Most Muslims are normal tolerant people. Literal Islam is not a tolerant or peaceful religion. But as with Christianity, people pick and choose so it's all good.

[Meneldil]

Because Islam is being blamed by some people for the actions of a few lunatics. That, and the fact that I wager that I know more about Islam in both historical and theological contexts than most other people do on this forum.

Fine Hax. I'll make sure to send you a notice whenever a group is being blamed for the actions of a few lunatics.

As for myself, your whole knowledge about Islam seems to be the kind of knowledge we've been taught at school cause of PC policies: "Islam was a tolerant and open-minded religion", "Jews were better off living in Al-Andalus than in medieval France". All this is pretty much a big myth that has little historical reality.

That doesn't change the fact that Islam as a whole is an extremely conservative (and nowadays, reactionnary) religion, with a strong totalitarian aim. You simply can't support Islam on the first hand, and then support women or gay rights, or the separation of church and state on the other hand.

The whole reason why a part of the left keeps supporting islam is because islam is the current main opponent of the "western world" and of its flaws. Just like people supported Stalin because he was the leader of the Workers paradise, you support a deeply violent and untolerant religion, on the basis of "anti imperialism", "anti racism", anti colonialism" and "freedom to the people".

At least, communism pretended to be a progressive force, attempting to liberate men and women, to create equal rights for all. Islam has no such intention.

Edit: Glad to see you back Don.

[Fragony]

What the hell happened to you