Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of Papy

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08-31-2010, 19:05
Fragony

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brenus

"Did the French not realise that this is part of the wonderful EU they're hell bent on making?" Well, the majority of the French voted against the European Constitution. And their opinion was ignored.

~~Same here, we said no~~

Posters are informed that Fragony's opinion on this matter is to be ignored :balloon2:
08-31-2010, 20:53
Megas Methuselah

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

I get ignored all the damn time. Roll with it.
08-31-2010, 21:06
Tellos Athenaios

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Louis did you just trade places with Seamus? Since when did you wield power in the backroom anyway?
08-31-2010, 22:26
Louis VI the Fat

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Louis did you just trade places with Seamus? Since when did you wield power in the backroom anyway?

I have struck down both green menaces, Seamus and Banquo....

They won't bother me anymore.

I have now become more powerful than you could possibly imagine...

http://planetsmilies.net/star-wars-smiley-6449.gif http://planetsmilies.net/star-wars-smiley-6472.gif http://planetsmilies.net/star-wars-smiley-6449.gif
08-31-2010, 23:32
Hosakawa Tito

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvg

thinner....

Or in Sarkosy's case, shorter...

Quote:

Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

So, pop to France for 3 months and get home for not just free but some cash too...

Did the French not realise that this is part of the wonderful EU they're hell bent on making?

~:smoking:

Moral narcissism in action. Reminds me of US foreign policy, lately.
08-31-2010, 23:51
Sarmatian

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

And all this western ngo's in Serbia, and other eastern countries i presume, say how Romas are discriminated and how they should be treated by western standards. Right, expel them all I say.

Kidding aside, they are a huge problem because it's impossible to assimilate them, and by that I don't mean into a particular nation but into a western culture. They follow their own rules and completely ignore local laws.
09-01-2010, 00:46
Tellos Athenaios

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I have struck down both green menaces, Seamus and Banquo....

They won't bother me anymore.

I have now become more powerful than you could possibly imagine...

http://planetsmilies.net/star-wars-smiley-6449.gif http://planetsmilies.net/star-wars-smiley-6472.gif http://planetsmilies.net/star-wars-smiley-6449.gif

So what happened to you little drugs sideline in Virginia then?
09-01-2010, 08:44
Andres

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brenus

"Did the French not realise that this is part of the wonderful EU they're hell bent on making?" Well, the majority of the French voted against the European Constitution. And their opinion was ignored.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fragony

Same here, we said no

Well, at least somebody asked for your opinions, nobody bothered to ask ours...
09-01-2010, 11:02
Fragony

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fragony

~~Same here, we said no~~

Posters are informed that Fragony's opinion on this matter is to be ignored :balloon2:

Evil French
09-01-2010, 12:51
Louis VI the Fat

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andres

Well, at least somebody asked for your opinions, nobody bothered to ask ours...

The Belgian constitution does not allow for a referendum. :book:

No Belgian is remotely interested in voting for any of his nine governments, none with any clear competence, but he is obliged to by law: voting is compulsory. Then when a Belgian does want to cast a vote, about a subject he does understands and cares about, he is disallowed to by law.

Belgium, quality entertainment! Europe's best running gag. :balloon2:
09-01-2010, 12:57
Andres

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

The Belgian constitution does not allow for a referendum. :book:

No Belgian is remotely interested in voting for any of his nine governments, none with any clear competence, but he is obliged to by law: voting is compulsory. Then when a Belgian does want to cast a vote, about a subject he does understands and cares about, he is disallowed to by law.

Belgium, quality entertainment! Europe's best running gag. :balloon2:

So true :shame:

:laugh4:
09-01-2010, 14:30
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beskar

Interesting replies. So deporting is people is ok, but not asking them to simply rent-out fields opposed to tresspassing?

No, prosecuting people for breaking the law is ok, imprisoning and then deporting them is even ok, deporting them because you don't like them is not ok.

It hasn't been ok since Aethelred the Unready tried to innitiate a pogrom against the "Danes" in 1002 AD.
09-01-2010, 14:31
Furunculus

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

The Belgian constitution does not allow for a referendum. :book:

No Belgian is remotely interested in voting for any of his nine governments, none with any clear competence, but he is obliged to by law: voting is compulsory. Then when a Belgian does want to cast a vote, about a subject he does understands and cares about, he is disallowed to by law.

Belgium, quality entertainment! Europe's best running gag. :balloon2:

lol, says more about us than it does about bush:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-minister.html

Quote:

“He didn’t know or recognise Guy, whose advice he listened to with considerable astonishment,” Mr Blair writes. “He then turned to me and whispered, ‘Who is this guy?’ ‘He is the prime minister of Belgium,’ I said.

“Belgium? George said, clearly aghast at the possible full extent of his stupidity. ‘Belgium is not part of the G8’.”

Mr Blair explained to Mr Bush that Mr Verhofstadt was there as “president of Europe”. Belgium held the presidency of the EU council at the time.

Mr Bush responded: “You got the Belgians running Europe?” before shaking his head, “now aghast at our stupidity”, Mr Blair writes.

roflmao!
09-01-2010, 14:44
rory_20_uk

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Probably the most astute thing he's ever done.

~:smoking:
09-01-2010, 15:33
al Roumi

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

And all this western ngo's in Serbia, and other eastern countries i presume, say how Romas are discriminated and how they should be treated by western standards. Right, expel them all I say.

Kidding aside, they are a huge problem because it's impossible to assimilate them, and by that I don't mean into a particular nation but into a western culture. They follow their own rules and completely ignore local laws.

This is a tricky issue to say the least, and it's been interesting to read the posts here. I'm inclined to say that the Roma are now Europe's problem, rather than a Romanian issue.

As far as my 2 cents go, Sarmatian's point is key: The Roma are a problem because their way of life at least appear completely at odds with the settled populations of the countries they travel to/in. They also don't want to or can't be assimilated, presumably because they consider their way of life of cultural significance to themselves, but also because there is (for one or many reasons) not much sympathy from the settled populations and no easy path to economic/social integration (not much need for illiterate and unskilled migrant labour these days...).

I'm pretty sure there are "travelers" (there are so many different groups/names/types) in the UK who don't cause a massive disruption, either by owning land or otherwise or getting agreement from police/local authorities. Thing is, even when approached some places/people are quite likely to say "no thank you" to someone setting up a travellers' camp on bought land. I have no idea how travelers sustain their livelihoods.

Possibly the worst aspect of this is that the Roma live in abject poverty and ignorance, with little or no schooling for their kids -never mind health care. How much of this is by cause of circumstance or concscious choice?

No one should expect to get something for nothing, but you can't force people to give up a way of life either. Especially if you still expect/want to be seen as the enlightened corner of the world...
09-01-2010, 16:03
Fragony

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

By whom, roma's? Lefties? Do I really have to care about the opinion of useless eastern-euro trash or be-it-seventies-ultra-orthodoxists? I don't think so.
09-01-2010, 16:23
al Roumi

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fragony

By whom, roma's? Lefties? Do I really have to care about the opinion of useless eastern-euro trash or be-it-seventies-ultra-orthodoxists? I don't think so.

No, by all means, you can continue to talk :daisy:
09-01-2010, 16:48
Vladimir

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andres

So true :shame:

:laugh4:

Reminds me of one of his prior posts:

http://zapatopi.net/belgium/

Brilliant!
09-01-2010, 16:49
Fragony

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by alh_p

No, by all means, you can continue to talk :daisy:

Got a garden? Invite them over and exchange some recepies or stop being the the smug morally superior richboy from a 100% white neighbourhood with one kebab-shop where nobody ever got robbed.
09-01-2010, 17:12
al Roumi

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fragony

Got a garden? Invite them over and exchange some recepies or stop being the the smug morally superior richboy from a 100% white neighbourhood with one kebab-shop where nobody ever got robbed.

LOL.

now, in seriousness, is "kick them out" as developed a position as you'd care to present on this issue?

I don't think my initial post says anything that should provoke/offend you. I just discussed some of the underlying issues and tried to indicate that simply kicking the Roma out of western european countries is not much of a mid or long term solution.
09-01-2010, 17:12
Skullheadhq

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fragony

Got a garden? Invite them over and exchange some recepies or stop being the the smug morally superior richboy from a 100% white neighbourhood with one kebab-shop where nobody ever got robbed.

U mad?

Well anyway, I think we should create a Roma homeland, somewhere in Siberia.
09-01-2010, 18:18
Fragony

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by alh_p

LOL.

now, in seriousness, is "kick them out" as developed a position as you'd care to present on this issue?

Is there any obligation we have?
09-01-2010, 18:30
Furunculus

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

U mad?

Well anyway, I think we should create a Roma homeland, somewhere in Siberia.

stalin was quite keen on that too. :D
09-02-2010, 16:50
al Roumi

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fragony

Is there any obligation we have?

Well, afaik, as european citizens the Roma can't be kept wherever you kick them too. As raised above, what is to stop them returning to France after repatriation and receiving their payout? How effective do you judge a policy of removal/repatriation to be when the migrants are legally entitled to move around the EU as they please?
09-02-2010, 16:55
Beskar

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

They are not, in Romania's case. I believe, they are not full entitled members.
09-02-2010, 18:13
Sarmatian

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

True, there are some restrictions with Romanian and Bulgarian citizens, meaning they aren't given full rights like other members but eventually they will be given (5,10,20... years). What then? Their culture is simply incompatible with western culture and most of them will never be able to assimilate.
09-03-2010, 10:08
Furunculus

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

True, there are some restrictions with Romanian and Bulgarian citizens, meaning they aren't given full rights like other members but eventually they will be given (5,10,20... years). What then? Their culture is simply incompatible with western culture and most of them will never be able to assimilate.

hmmm, we should have thought about this before we engaged in the massive circile-jerk that is ever-deeper-union.
09-03-2010, 12:17
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by alh_p

This is a tricky issue to say the least, and it's been interesting to read the posts here. I'm inclined to say that the Roma are now Europe's problem, rather than a Romanian issue.

As far as my 2 cents go, Sarmatian's point is key: The Roma are a problem because their way of life at least appear completely at odds with the settled populations of the countries they travel to/in. They also don't want to or can't be assimilated, presumably because they consider their way of life of cultural significance to themselves, but also because there is (for one or many reasons) not much sympathy from the settled populations and no easy path to economic/social integration (not much need for illiterate and unskilled migrant labour these days...).

I'm pretty sure there are "travelers" (there are so many different groups/names/types) in the UK who don't cause a massive disruption, either by owning land or otherwise or getting agreement from police/local authorities. Thing is, even when approached some places/people are quite likely to say "no thank you" to someone setting up a travellers' camp on bought land. I have no idea how travelers sustain their livelihoods.

Possibly the worst aspect of this is that the Roma live in abject poverty and ignorance, with little or no schooling for their kids -never mind health care. How much of this is by cause of circumstance or concscious choice?

No one should expect to get something for nothing, but you can't force people to give up a way of life either. Especially if you still expect/want to be seen as the enlightened corner of the world...

The half-Roma I live with has toldme that her Romany Gypsy mother was keen for her to have at least basic schooling, but her showman "Traveller" father considered it useless.

She's an English Roma but her opinion of modern "travellers" in Britain and elsewhere is very very low.
09-03-2010, 13:34
al Roumi

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

The half-Roma I live with has toldme that her Romany Gypsy mother was keen for her to have at least basic schooling, but her showman "Traveller" father considered it useless.

I hope her mother got her way! Tragically, some won't have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

She's an English Roma but her opinion of modern "travellers" in Britain and elsewhere is very very low.

:) I understand (from my mother who is an ESOL teacher for state-school kids in my parents' county) that the different types of travellers are indeed very particular about their differences, not to mention rude about each other.

I was just googling trying to find some list of different traveller groups and came accross this, which is quite surprising:

http://www.travellerstimes.org.uk/website/Home.htm
It's funded by the Dept for Children, Schools and Families. Leads me to wonder though how long it will survice with the Big Society...

While browsing that site, I came acrross a pdf "guide to gypsies and travellers" which, providing you are interested in more than what size boot to wear when "kicking them out", should be interesting. Apparently, half of gypsies/travellers in the Uk live in houses (that don't have wheels) and don't have psycic powers. Also, on page 13 there is an explanation for why Wayne Rooney is so quarrelsome and likes bright colours.
09-03-2010, 13:49
rory_20_uk

Re: Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of

Not long, I hope. Unlike the vast numbers of waves of immigrants that have come to the UK over the last thousand years or so and have integrated and enriched our society, as a group this lot haven't.

~:smoking:

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