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Well okay, but by the time theyve settled down youre generally not dealing with a dozen full stacks all in the same place any more. The biggest problem with the mongols is dealing with their initial incursion, and the best thing for that is to use archers & stakes.
Err, even if they settle down and you are technically the 'attacker' in the battle just sit behind your stakes and they'll still come running. The AI seems to look at missiles superiority first and foremost when deciding whether to wait or to attack. If you have superior missiles they will attack. If they somehow don't attack then retreat the battle and they will attack in the next one.
I suppose it's better than them sitting there waiting while you peck them apart, but it does make longbowmen a bit of an exploit against the Mongols. ;)
:egypt:
original quote by Alexander: The hellenic empire
The problem here with the English is that if you created a "fort" with stakes from Longbowmen the Mongol Horse Archers with circle around the fort and shoot your soldiers down!
In my experience, I have not been able to avoid this.
During deployment, you create a long line or shallow V of stakes as close to the moguls as possible. Then immediately after starting the battle have your archers run back to near the edge of the battle map where the rest of your force is. The Mongol usually can’t resist shooting at the backs of your retreating archers, so charge to attack. If you stop your archers retreat at the right place your can have the mongul HA’s doing a shooting circle with a line of stakes running right through the middle.
They often route before the English archers have fired their first shot.
Happy to find another Byzantine supporter! :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry707
Quote:
Originally Posted by anders
I had no problems with coming within range; and the moral penalty that gunpowder inflicts made the mongol horse archers flee after some skirmish; not to mention that reiters got 20 as missile attack. Since reiters are fairly fast cavalry, you should be able to chase the mongol horse archers off the map.
I don’t often fight the Mongols but the Timurids are a different story. I seem to always find my self fighting elephants with those archers.
I have killed them off with the English, Polish, & Spanish. The most interesting was the Spanish and they seemed more effective than the other two. Pikes and crossbows did in the archers and javelin troops the elephants. I don‘t want to make it sound easy but in the end it did the trick. In the end I had to track them down as they were running for the hills. The Poles did a better job in my opinion than the English. Their stake archers are not nearly as potent in stats but the mounted units did most of the work anyway.
How did the Timurids get to Spain?:jawdrop:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
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Originally Posted by Alexander: The hellenic empire
I think Spain got to the Timurids. :laugh4:
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Originally Posted by Monsieur Alphonse
:2thumbsup:
hmm, bonus is that once laid, stakes never go away. while it is true that units of spearmen could do the same job, the fact is that once they got wipe out, your prized archers look suddenly very lonely.
but yeah, while it is true that HA *should* be marching past your stake fort and continue pumping arrows while the rest of the army attack, the problem is that AI doesn't and often end up in a shooting duel - something that your 60+ archers v 40 HA can win by range, speed and number of attacks. of course, the idea is to spread the units so that they don't cluster altogether. so the "fort will just be mere "U" shape emplacement. i also use mounted units to "distract" the Mongol units that are not doing the "dread-mongol-shuffle" to lure them away somewhere.
also. with the spear-walling and schiltroning(?) units acting as buffer, the poor sods then to suffer more casualties than in their natural formation. that is why stakes can buy me time until i can schiltron it in a fight.
i have problem with using the spearwall units in middle-east, so i don't even bother anymore. seems like every lads with a bow just loves to pick on them.
ya, i guess there is more than one way to skin cats. but the truth is...i am in love with the longbowmen...
An interesting thing has happened in the poll. Nobody voted for the Muslim North African factions:
- Egypt :egypt:
- The Moors :charge:
they have formidable units, so what motivates this total lack of trust in them?
egypt is good against the mongols as you have the option of going all HA against them, or spamming militia armies or fielding a balanced army (with extra naffatuns). turks shaded it for me because of stake archers (egypt has no elite archer).
against the timurids, you need a jav cav faction, so i prefer egypt to turks in this case.
i haven't played them, but poland looks good against the hordes - polish nobles for taking out elephants/heavy cav, plus a stake archer!
This is very important, projectile missles have an innate chance of missing even if it could hit an unit which means that your arrows may not always be taking off a hitpoint from the Timurid elephants while javelins always take out a hitpoint and hence seems to work better against themQuote:
Originally Posted by Jason X
I say hungary, having defeated mongols AND timurids with them why?
A great mixture of the Cavalry archers of eastern europe, and the heavies of western europe, they are only weak in early game, were they must rush to survive, in cities, they can easily defend with good quality archers and heavy infantry, plus if things get desperate, you can always build loads pathetic peasent troops and throw them at the enemy :beam:
I agree on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander: The hellenic empire
Imo, the tactics of the English should be regard as an exploit of the AL. Any human player would defeat English archers. Any human player facing the Byzzies would suffer or more likely will face defeat.
Abokasee, please change your signature, it's making me hungry.
This is very true. defeating such an army is easy for a human but tricks the AI. Have we conducted our whole analysis incorrectly??Quote:
Originally Posted by Atreides
:smash:
:gah:Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveybaby
~D
I voted for Venice.
(I acknowledge the longbow-stake thing and I'd imagine it is very effective, but for me it would take the fun out of it a little...)
I fought them in field battles, drawing them into shootouts with my pavises and avoiding the charge by giving ground whenever they used the "about to charge" body language and dissuading them with a couple of catapult rounds from either end of the line.
eventually the charge comes, which you should take with a line of upgraded spearmen on guard mode, with carrocio standard and a high chivalry general behind to offset the high-dread effect of their generals
then you can envelop the khan with spears from the sides and cavalry from behind, and make sure you take him out
usually there will be another army waiting atop a nearby hill, but by now you'll be out of bolts and it's time to withdraw and fight another day with replenished ammo.
highly effective attritional warfare, so long as you think like the mongol and don't provoke the charge until they are whittled down by xbow fire...
Milan are probably equivalently good at this, but I choose Venice because they are marginally closer which gives you a headstart at getting over there and building some infrastructure before they arrive.
timurids are a different matter altogether - pavises are next to useless against elephants and I resorted to trapping them with my patented elephant fence...
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=88889
Any faction can beat the Mongols if you are ready for them.
By the time the arrive I am normally sitting on an Empire that stretches from Zagreb, Ragusa and Sophia on the west, includes all of Asia Minor and then wraps around the Eastern Mediterranean coast to Alexandra and Cairo. There are no Turks, Egyptians or Venetians and the Pope is seriously thinking about learning Greek.
Here is my idea of an Anti-Mongol army
Infantry Army
1 X General
3 X Heavy Infantry - Byzantine Infantry/Dismounted Latinkons/Varangians
8 X Spear units - Normally spear militia with armour upgrades (I really wish that Byzantines could build an armored Spearman)
8 X Archer Units preferably Trebizond Archers or Guard archers but Archer Militia are OK in a pinch
This is a fairly inexpensive army to raise and maintain. Its only weakness is that it doesn't attack well but in this case it is defending or waiting to be attacked. It is also a good siege army.
Cavalry Army
1 X General
2 X Latinkons/Kataphraxtoi
3 X Spear Units
3 X Elite Archers
3 X Heavy Infantry
4 X Horse Archers
4 X Vards
The Infantry army works better especially if you can make the Mongols come to you and catch trying to cross a river or bridge. This one works better if you are actually trying to a attack a Mongol stack
As a side note and dig at the Anglophiles:
I would put the Byzantine Guard Archers up against a group of longbow men any day. The Guard Archers have the same range and amour piercing arrows plus better amour good melee stats. They are one of the few archer units that you can have shoot until they run out of arrows and then use as competent melee troops
i think all factions are capable of beating the mongols except for the turks beacause of their geographical location....the mongols just come right against the turks the same trail the mongols had followed historically(the seljuk empire lasted coz of the mongols attacks). and the next hardest faction to stop the mongols are the egyptians but any way..the turks have to hurry up advancing their castles and cities before the mongols arrive which is pretty challenging. any other faction will find the mongols pretty easy havin the time advancing and recruiting good units to hold the mongols
With the Turks it is better to go Jannisarrys and saracen infantry and let the Mongols dry up outside your walls, rather than facing them in the open with horse archers, IMO.
Have to agree with the English as being the best anti-Mongol faction. I've absorbed a whole Mongol wave on one of their turns because they tried to force a river crossing guarded by one of my English stacks. I had to fight 8 or 9 defensive battles that turn at the one spot but I was able to soak up the whole wave.
Stakes are awesome for causing "horsey-kabobs". :beam:
If Kingdoms units are available (either Crusades campaign or mods) Egyptian Kasshakis and Sybiaan Al-kayys can fight the mongol cavalry toe-to-toe and come out victorious provided that they are placed with a capable general with some +morale and chivalry.
I love fully mounted armies too much.
I voted Byzantine in the end, simply because I prefer fighting the mongols with all horse armies.
The English are great until you have to leave your stake fort/wall and hunt the mongols down. Byzantine horse can attack the mongols anytime anyplace anywhere and win with great efficiency.
Also, the mobility of Byzantine all-horse armies on campaign map is far superior for hunting/splitting the mongol horde than clunking about with swords and bows, especially if you like to encircle and destroy the horde before they settle down.
:charge:
anybody using moorish camel gunners against the mongols?
how does that work? I imagine the "fear of camels" would hold the charging mongols at bay and the long range jezhails would reap a grim harvest.
Anyone have any experience fighting the mongols with the danes? I`m getting my heavy inf. armies shot to pieces by the horse archers, clerics and heavy inf kill the lancers and khans pretty good, but i still lose to the HAs.
Byzantines.
Most has been said why. The Byz semi manouverable and semi stationary troop line up just suit my personality. Turks came second.
I've got to go with the English and their RL and stakes. Add a few cav and garnish with a touch of heavy infantry, season with just a little exp and serve with a high ground defense.
I've always found it quite appetising.
England.
First of all, think defense. The Mongols will never, ever touch your main holdings (barring a migration game). You can effectively wage war on them forever. Maintain good relations with the pope, and you can retake any catholic city with unlimited legions of crusader units.
Now, think offense. Heavy mounted knights attacking the wings, stake longbowmen in the middle, and heavy infantry Pikemen and so on are BRUTAL versus the Mongols.
Horse archers? You can pin them against the side of the map with any light mercenary mounts and melee them to death with your slow mounted knights. Also, you can keep them away from your main infantry force by spreading out your infantry formations and firing endless arrows at their horse archers with your superior English bows. They have better range. If they do the spread/circle formation with their horse archers, you can ram them with your mounts and melee them to death.
You will suffer some casualties. However, you can completely annihilate their armies, man to man, without reinforcements. Just keep a high dread or chivalry general and GUARD HIM with your life, surrounded by your heavy pikes.
Alternate plan: Endless crusaders. Send your feeble-minded but brave faithful in swarms, armed with whatever may be their weapon, and take them down with a greater horde. Out-horde the horde.
England simply cannot lose to the Mongols. There is zero chance they will advance all the way to your capital, and other nations will be at war with them. Send ships filled with stacks and surround their cities, starve them to death, surround and pound them as the spread their initial stacks into rival territories. They are strong at the beginning, but like in chess, every move creates some kind of weakness.
When they are spread out and vulnerable, you can surround them on the campaign map. Assassins and spies can be of use, but with such overwhelming odds in your favor... you cannot lose.
If you want my opinion on Eastern half of the board factions, go with the Italian factions. Nothing says "I love you" like endless stacks of pavise crossbowmen and cheapo italian militia spear infantry.
Poke and shoot! Poke and shoot! Poke and shoot!
Die! Die! Die!
:elephant: Now dance, pink elephant, 'tis your day of triumph!
pizzaguy is back! run for the hills!