Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

This is a question to all who happen to apparently hate China's government:

Have you ever lived in China for a long period of time? Have you ever interacted with Chinese natives who aren't in the minority? Have you guys made any attempt to understand Chinese culture and thinking?

From what I can tell so far, most who has lived in China for a significant amount of time, whether a native or a foreigner, acknowledges the Chinese government's problems, but realizes that it is improving the people's lives.

Also, China's power in this world for the time being is here to stay. I bet most people here (don't know about you guys over in Europe) can find dozens of items in their house that are made in China. Whether you hate China's government or not, without China, the world's economy will go kaput

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Originally Posted by TevashSzat

From what I can tell so far, most who has lived in China for a significant amount of time, whether a native or a foreigner, acknowledges the Chinese government's problems, but realizes that it is improving the people's lives.

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Except the lives of religious people, ethnic minorities, political dissidents, and the millions who were more or less randomly whisked off to Laogai, the world's largest covert network of forced labor camps. Like Bao Tong said': 'In China, we produce miscarriages of justice and trumped-up charges like a high-intensity industrial zone.'

I feel that much of China's recent economic progress is the result of the energy and initiative of ordinary Chinese, enabled because the government is finally off their back in some areas of the economy.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

She basically trained so much that she ruined her legs.

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She's welcome to join "HoreTore's Club of People Who Screwed Their Legs From Too Much Running, Skating and/or Skiing".

Yes, that even happens in democratic countries :beam:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Except the lives of religious people, ethnic minorities, political dissidents, and the millions who were more or less randomly whisked off to Laogai, the world's largest covert network of forced labor camps. Like Bao Tong said': 'In China, we produce miscarriages of justice and trumped-up charges like a high-intensity industrial zone.'

I feel that much of China's recent economic progress is the result of the energy and initiative of ordinary Chinese, enabled because the government is finally off their back in some areas of the economy.

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Okay, that is true, I don't deny it.

Name a civilization that has lasted for any significant amount of time who hasn't done most of these things at once in their history. I have studied US History for quite alot and I can quickly come up a very very long list of things that have rivaled the atrocities of the Chinese Government (Indians and smallpox come to mind here). Imperialistic Europe caused countless hardships in the lives of billions. In fact, the rise of the Communist party is in part due to the European undermining of the nationalist democratic government that caused it to be viewed weak in the minds of the whole country.

In fact, its not just China's economic growth, but the whole world's. So many companies rely on China's cheap labor and sweatshops that the whole world is dependent on China as much as China is dependent on everyone else is.

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Originally Posted by TevashSzat

Okay, that is true, I don't deny it.

Name a civilization that has lasted for any significant amount of time who hasn't done most of these things at once in their history. I have studied US History for quite alot and I can quickly come up a very very long list of things that have rivaled the atrocities of the Chinese Government (Indians and smallpox come to mind here). Imperialistic Europe caused countless hardships in the lives of billions. In fact, the rise of the Communist party is in part due to the European undermining of the nationalist democratic government that caused it to be viewed weak in the minds of the whole country.

In fact, its not just China's economic growth, but the whole world's. So many companies rely on China's cheap labor and sweatshops that the whole world is dependent on China as much as China is dependent on everyone else is.

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I fail to see the point; you should compare China to the rest of the world as it currently is.

EDIT: If one would should bother to compare at all; it's not really good for anything. :thinking:

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Originally Posted by TevashSzat

This is a question to all who happen to apparently hate China's government:

Have you ever lived in China for a long period of time? Have you ever interacted with Chinese natives who aren't in the minority? Have you guys made any attempt to understand Chinese culture and thinking?

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Chinese culture is difficult to comprehend from the outside. It is inward looking, and Chinese, individually or collectively, have a tendency to close like an oyster at any criticism.
Having said that, the world is quite accustomed to Chinese. There are Chinatowns everywhere, their kids go to school with everybody else. And there are Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong. More open, more free Chinese offshoot countries.

All you have to do with Chinese is stop treating them like pack mules and they prosper. There's no 'need' for China to be authoritarian. Nor is the improvement of the quality of life an excuse. Nor is the very tiresome 'but you did it too' a proper argument for those over the age of six.


It is precisely because China is here to stay, because it is inevitable that China will assume it's place as the world's biggest superpower, that Chinese authoritarianism feels at once misplaced, outdated and, indeed, threatening. The current China mixes the indignified retoric of a state that feels wronged by history and unacknowledged by the outside world, with the arrogance of a superpower.


On a personal note, my hairdresser of course is Asian. A few gays from Hong Kong and mainland China. Why? A) Never have your hair cut by heterosexuals. And b) hipness flows from East to West. Tokyo - London - New York - Los Angeles. From these capitals hipness flows to the continental masses of Asia, the European continent and the US. Once something has reached LA you do not want to be associated with it even when dead.
Why is that relevant? Because they are the face of China to me. How some geriatrics, power hungry Chinese officials and those horrid IOC members think that mass spectacles like these Olympics impress anyone or project 'power and progress' is beyond me. Maybe it did in Bucarest in 1978. In Pyongyang too. But not in the globalised world of 2008.

Louis: About the opening ceremony, I somehow doubt it was about "power" and "progress" and more about Zhang Yimou's own arrogance and showmanship demanding that he do something massive (ever see the movie Hero?). Couple that with a near unlimited budget, and you have the opening ceremony for the Olympic Games. I had the honor of watching Zhang Yimou's rendition of Turandot in Germany a few years back, and it was massive and awesome, just like a miniature version of the Olympic Opening Ceremony.

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Originally Posted by TevashSzat

Okay, that is true, I don't deny it.

Name a civilization that has lasted for any significant amount of time who hasn't done most of these things at once in their history. I have studied US History for quite alot and I can quickly come up a very very long list of things that have rivaled the atrocities of the Chinese Government (Indians and smallpox come to mind here). Imperialistic Europe caused countless hardships in the lives of billions. In fact, the rise of the Communist party is in part due to the European undermining of the nationalist democratic government that caused it to be viewed weak in the minds of the whole country.

In fact, its not just China's economic growth, but the whole world's. So many companies rely on China's cheap labor and sweatshops that the whole world is dependent on China as much as China is dependent on everyone else is.

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Chinese athletes aren't competing against the European athletes times of a hundred years ago so why try an essentially unfair comparison of governments out of time sync?

Also with respect to labour, its just that. Labour. Not super skilled design and engineering, it is basic manufacturing. In time the ratios are improving. But labour is found anywhere, and right now a lot of companies are preferring Malaysia, India and Vietnam for their East Asian labour pools. Also Eastern Europe and South America beckon.

I don't think it is anything special that Australia is a quarry and that China is the manufacturers. Neither of us are at the right end of the spectrum compared to engineers, designers and high end consumers.

Nor do I think being the best a thousand years ago counts for much. One must live the life they have now, not the one of their ancestors.

Communist China is growing. Democratic China would flourish.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Communist China is growing. Democratic China would flourish.

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Amen!

solid gold shut out, baby. sorry aussies.

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

solid gold shut out, baby. sorry aussies.

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Oh well, we still have more medals per capita...

The Independent has more on the age issue in gymnastics. How much more corrupt can the IOC get?

The controversy over He has been bubbling for a couple of months since the Chinese named her in their team for the Games. Her age, which had previously been given by several official Chinese sources as 14, suddenly became 16, which meets the requirement that competitors must be 16 in the year of the Games.

Two official Chinese gymnastic websites " now blocked" previously gave He's birth date as 1994, making her 14 this year. The China Daily, the government newspaper, profiled her earlier this year and said she was 14. And most compelling of all was a speech in November 2007 when a Chinese official, Liu Peng, introduced He as 13.

link

Oh hell, between the doping, age scandals, gear scandals, and medal scandals, Olympic Sports are as dirty as they come. There's a reason why I don't watch Olympic Sports. They're nothing but contests on seeing how much you can cheat before getting caught.

Scandal #241

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Beijing Olympic opening ceremony guides stripped naked to qualify


Chinese female guides who led each country's athletes into the National Stadium during the Olympic Games opening ceremony had to strip naked as part of the selection process.

Thousands of young women from academies in Beijing applied for the 204 positions to compete for the chance to appear before a huge worldwide audience.

According to reports, the women were measured for their body proportions by teachers who were judging over who was best qualified.

Interviewed by the Beijing News, 20-year-old college student Zhang Fan said that the girls were put in a room where teachers measured them with a ruler.

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There is no limit to dirty tricks by dirty old men. :no:

I am already looking forward to seeing how Chinese officials will try to lie their way out of this one. An autocratic regime + saving face at all costs as the highest cultural value makes makes for splendidly imaginative squirming.

They won't. They'll even admit to having a good time doing it.

I turned on the TV this morning and they showed the women football semifinal between Germany and Brazil and I was pleasantly surprised, the ladies played really well and it was fun to watch.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Scandal #241There is no limit to dirty tricks by dirty old men. :no:

I am already looking forward to seeing how Chinese officials will try to lie their way out of this one. An autocratic regime + saving face at all costs as the highest cultural value makes makes for splendidly imaginative squirming.

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I think you will find that nudity in Asian in certain situations makes the French look prissy.

In Taiwan there are yearly tests of all students. The girls have to strip naked and be measured by doctors for 'health' reasons. Not sure about the guys, I just remember all the girls I was teaching asking if that was the norm in Aus.

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Originally Posted by TevashSzat

This is just a repost of my rather long post in another thread here with some changes here or there:

I am a native Chinese here and was born in Beijing. I'm a permanent resident in the US atm. Didn't really want to get into the discussion before since frankly, I don't want to spend all that time writing posts as long as this one

Anyways, I'll try to give some thoughts, some anecdotes, and basically give you a Chinese viewpoint

Okay first of all, Communism, imo, works on paper but will never even come close to success in real life which is why the only reason the Chinese government hasn't fallen yet is that right now, it's not really even attempting to keep the Communism ideal; its is just communist in name.

As for why we adopted it, keep this in mind. China has a 5000 year history. We, as a civilization, have been one of the most dominant nations in the world until the modern times. We rivaled the Romans, the Greeks, any ancient civilization you can name and ancient China was probably comparable if not better. In China right now, basically these last 100-150 years were called something like the century of downfall when we went from the best in the world to one of the most underdeveloped ones.

The nationalists, who were in power for about 3-4 decades before WWII. They were democratic, but they had horrible corruption and generally did not rule the country well at all. Once Japan invaded China and WWII began, the nationalists lost horribly and the nation was basically razed. Given China's state at that point, I doubt any government could have done too much better, but the nationalists were the government at that time and their failure created the impetus for the rise of the Communist Party. Now might it have been better had the nationalists survived? Perhaps, but you would never know how world history might have changed.

Now, has the Communist government in the past half a century or so done some terrible things? Yes, without a doubt and the people do know that. However, China is one of the great powers of the world now and is only growing in power, which I don't think anyone can deny. Progress has been made and the average person is living MUCH better than half a century ago. As much as the critics blame the Chinese government for human rights issues, there is no doubt that the country has improved tremendously.

Now, many have said that China only improved once the Communist restrictions were lifted, but that is not the full picture. The Cultural Revolution, as horrible as it was, did have a few benefits: it gave a chance to millions of poor farmers and created a generation determined to succeed. My father was born is a very very poor village in one of the poorest provinces in China. He literally lived in a mud hut, his father was a blacksmith, and they sold crops for a living and this was in the 60s/70s. In any nation, he would basically grow up like his father and would never improve in socioeconomic status.

Now, the cultural revolution equaled the educational opportunities between rural and urban areas. My father studied hard and managed to get into one of the best medical schools in the country. He graduated and became a cardiologist. Now, with a more capitalistic kinda society setting in, there is absolutely 100% no chance of that happening. NO CHANCE. I don't care if the child is as smart as Albert Einstein, but the simply fact is that if your family background is that poor, the disparity between rural and urban areas is too large for anyone to cross

As for the Tibet issue, this is what the people feel: Before China went in, Tibet was terribly backwards, even by Chinese standards at that time, which is saying alot. Now, Tibet has improved tremendously, even for the natives there. For gods sake, I've seen monks using cell phones in Tibet. Now, lots of people have been killed in Tibet, but so have millions in rest of China so most people feel that there is nothing special or overly harsh that Tibet has suffered through.

Essentially, most people see Tibet trying to get independence right after it has gained a tremendous amount of benefit from China and tons of investment. Its akin to something like Hawaii wanting independence right now from the US (well, thats not the best comparison there, but still). Hawaii, btw, only joined the United States because the wealthy sugar plantation owners and what not started a Coup to overthrow Hawaii's rightful government.

I can say that for the near future, barring some major change in world politics, Tibet will never be free. If it declares independence, China will surely invade and crush the opposition easily. Now, don't say that the US will help or anything because it won't. Just look at Georgia and Russia right now. Georgia is actually a sovereign nation and all the US is doing is sending in humanitarian supplies....

China and US have too much of a symbiotic relationship for either country to break off relations. US needs China for borrowing money for government debts and for cheap Chinese goods. Without Chinese goods, the US economy will downspiral and crash and there will be another great depression. China needs US consumers to buy Chinese goods and if US stops buying them, the Chinese boom will collapse and there will be a great depression too.

So.... this 862 word reply is finally finished.....and yeah. Kinda a semi rant, but I'm hopefully coherent enough there. Please don't end up making me write another one because this really takes up alot of time....

Another addition here: I feel that the Western mindset is very different from the Chinese mindset. Western nations are outraged bu China's human right violations and I am too up to a point. Keep in mind, though, that to a vast majority of the Chinese, fighting local government corruption is much bigger on their priorities than making sure they have freedom of speech or religion. In fact, those arguing for Tibet and the Xinjiang independence are considered to be on the fringe and radicals in China.

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Tl;dr :yes:

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Now, with a more capitalistic kinda society setting in, there is absolutely 100% no chance of that happening. NO CHANCE. I don't care if the child is as smart as Albert Einstein, but the simply fact is that if your family background is that poor, the disparity between rural and urban areas is too large for anyone to cross

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WRONG.

Oh, and it's going to be fun watching the impending environmental disaster from how China has so seriously abused its environment. Well, not fun, but interesting at least.

I have to wonder at people saying; oh China's gov't has done so much good. Now, they control the news, don't they? So you can't really get an honest opinion about what's happening.

And furthermore; how can it be said China wouldn't be farther along if they weren't burdened witht he government they have now; look at the rise of South Korea.

CR

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

WRONG.

Oh, and it's going to be fun watching the impending environmental disaster from how China has so seriously abused its environment. Well, not fun, but interesting at least.

I have to wonder at people saying; oh China's gov't has done so much good. Now, they control the news, don't they? So you can't really get an honest opinion about what's happening.

And furthermore; how can it be said China wouldn't be farther along if they weren't burdened witht he government they have now; look at the rise of South Korea.

CR

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Umm....I don't see how you are rebutting or countering my previous statement; you're just dodging it with a tangential topic.

Anyways, my family has experienced lots of the Chinese government's horrible deeds so don't you think that I don't know what horrible things has happened.

My grandmother's family used to own a whole mountain range and all of the villages/peasants working on the land there, but then it was taken away by the communists. Several family members have died due to the communists and my grandfather is now living in quite poor conditions right now again due to them.

And regarding your second statement, the thing is no one knows. It might be better, or the government might have collapsed. It is important to note that South Korea and China were in very different situations. Indeed, had the international community supported the nationalists much more substantially in the Sino Japanese war, I would say with about 80% certainty that it would have survived WW2 and might still be in power today

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

I think you will find that nudity in Asian in certain situations makes the French look prissy.

In Taiwan there are yearly tests of all students. The girls have to strip naked and be measured by doctors for 'health' reasons. Not sure about the guys, I just remember all the girls I was teaching asking if that was the norm in Aus.

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It suddenly occurs to me that I haven't the faintest clue about nudity and normalcy in East Asia. Or the normalcy of abnormalcy.

I am just hoping for as many scandals as possible. The spotlight of the Olympics beams in both directions. The hosts can hope to use it to advertise their magnificence. But it can also be used to draw attention to and magnify their shortcomings. Both within and outside of China.

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Originally Posted by TevashSzat

My grandmother's family used to own a whole mountain range and all of the villages/peasants working on the land there

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Good old times, for sure:inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by TevashSzat

Indeed, had the international community supported the nationalists much more substantially in the Sino Japanese war, I would say with about 80% certainty that it would have survived WW2

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Do you mean the landlords would have been able to... mmm... "deal with" the massive popular discontent their feudal rule brought and fed? That's really questionnable. The outstanding accomplishments of Taiwan (and by the way, it's the same for South Korea) were only possible with the need for the GMD to compete with communist China in order to justify their rule. If there was not an ennemy, GMD would have remained the same bunch of corrupt and inept feudals it was between 1930 and the fifties, probably (at that time their kept corruption as a tradition, but became competent at least, and democrats later)

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Originally Posted by TevashSzat

Umm....I don't see how you are rebutting or countering my previous statement; you're just dodging it with a tangential topic.

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Don't worry about that, TevashSzat, CR is still living The American Delusion, where exceptions to the rule somehow prove everything.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

...had to strip naked as part of the selection process.

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I am looking into getting this to be part of the standard screening process for new employees where I work. :eyebrows:

It does make me wonder if more people would take better care of themselves if they knew they could not get a job if they didn’t look fat or ugly.

whoa, china shot up the gold rankings since i last checked, leaving the US in the dust!

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Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

Please use the designated protest zones for unfurling flags about Tibet. Also, please shut up about Tibet.

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these people requested use of the dedicated protest zones and got sentenced to a year's ‘re-education through labour':
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/peter_f...ser_in_beijing

are there any updating lists of medals per-capita and medals per GDP by any chance, might make interesting reading............?

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Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

I'm actually surprised at the level of mercy the Chinese government has show in Tibet, when we simply could have killed them all, sort of like what the Europeans did to the African natives.

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i can find only one reference to genocide relating to african colonialism, and it was by germany rather than all european colonial nations all the time wherever we went in africa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_Genocide

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Originally Posted by Furunculu5

i can find only one reference to genocide relating to african colonialism, and it was by germany rather than all european colonial nations all the time wherever we went in africa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_Genocide

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I can think of two more. The British concentration camps in the Second Boer War and the Belgian Congo.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

I can think of two more. The British concentration camps in the Second Boer War and the Belgian Congo.

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the british concentration camps had nothing to do with genocide, to say as much is to make a unjustified allusion to what the nazi's were up to.

and as far as i can tell there was no attempt at genocide in the belgian congo, no matter how repugnant belgian colonialism was.

Well, so I guess genocide is our invention and our speciality.
Makes me feel all special and evil like every teenager wants to be... :freak:

So basically, considering the topic title, this is about how the olympic games are bad because China is bad and the only other nation as bad as China is Germany and I should be ashamed for being a chinese by association and liking women's football when it is played in China? :dizzy2:

sorry, i did not mean to intimate that, i could only find one specific wiki reference to genocide in relation to african colonialism. :)

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Originally Posted by Husar

Well, so I guess genocide is our invention and our speciality.
Makes me feel all special and evil like every teenager wants to be... :freak:

So basically, considering the topic title, this is about how the olympic games are bad because China is bad and the only other nation as bad as China is Germany and I should be ashamed for being a chinese by association and liking women's football when it is played in China? :dizzy2:

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Oh, don't be a crybaby or you'll never get laid. WWII was two hundred years ago and nobody cares about it.

More importantly, don't watch women's footy! Girls don't dig guys with freak perversions like that. Be a man. Play football yourself. In a park, not at a club.
When a girl you fancy comes along, you solo in Maradona style through six opponents and score with a cracking belter, through the goalkeeper's legs. Then you take a break 'because these guys obviously aren't any match for your skillz', and you chat up the girl. Then, when one of your mates sees a nice girl, six others of you suddenly become spastic and it's his turn to put on a show. Girls never figure that sort of stuff out.

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Originally Posted by Furunculu5

the british concentration camps had nothing to do with genocide, to say as much is to make a unjustified allusion to what the nazi's were up to.

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From Wiki:

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Originally Posted by Wiki

As Boer farms were destroyed by the British under their "Scorched Earth" policy - including the systematic destruction of crops and slaughtering of livestock, the burning down of homesteads and farms, and the poisoning of wells and salting of fields - to prevent the Boers from resupplying from a home base many tens of thousands of women and children were forcibly moved into the concentration camps. This was not the first appearance of internment camps. The Spanish had used internment in the Ten Years' War that later led to the Spanish-American War, and the United States had used them to devastate guerrilla forces during the Philippine-American War. But the Boer War concentration camp system was the first time that a whole nation had been systematically targeted, and the first in which some whole regions had been depopulated.

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and as far as i can tell there was no attempt at genocide in the belgian congo, no matter how repugnant belgian colonialism was.

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http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDe...88&SESSION=875

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Oh, don't be a crybaby or you'll never get laid. WWII was two hundred years ago and nobody cares about it.

More importantly, don't watch women's footy! Girls don't dig guys with freak perversions like that. Be a man. Play football yourself. In a park, not at a club.
When a girl you fancy comes along, you solo in Maradona style through six opponents and score with a cracking belter, through the goalkeeper's legs. Then you take a break 'because these guys obviously aren't any match for your skillz', and you chat up the girl. Then, when one of your mates sees a nice girl, six others of you suddenly become spastic and it's his turn to put on a show. Girls never figure that sort of stuff out.

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I've met very few girls impressed by anything football-related. Once scored 3 and...nothing. She was even watching the game, totally oblivious.

In that case, feign injury and work on their nursing instinct. :book:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Oh, don't be a crybaby or you'll never get laid. WWII was two hundred years ago and nobody cares about it.

More importantly, don't watch women's footy! Girls don't dig guys with freak perversions like that. Be a man. Play football yourself. In a park, not at a club.
When a girl you fancy comes along, you solo in Maradona style through six opponents and score with a cracking belter, through the goalkeeper's legs. Then you take a break 'because these guys obviously aren't any match for your skillz', and you chat up the girl. Then, when one of your mates sees a nice girl, six others of you suddenly become spastic and it's his turn to put on a show. Girls never figure that sort of stuff out.

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:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

From Wiki:
http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDe...88&SESSION=875

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i dunno what your definition of genocide is, but the boer concentration camps are not it.

i accept the link about the bongo with little surprise given that i accept belgian colonialism was about the most repugnant form: "and as far as i can tell there was no attempt at genocide in the belgian congo, no matter how repugnant belgian colonialism was."

The Boer excerpt from Wiki sounds like 'ethnic cleansing,' but not quite genocide.

Ajax

Looks like the gymnatics age issue is going live. Yes Sir, five out of six girlie gymnasts are now officially suspect. What makes me laugh hardest is that the Chinese state media themselves directed attention to the issue by stating the girls' real ages in their columns in previous years. What was it an American political scientist said years ago? He said that dictatorships breed 'structuraly induced stupidity' in their people and institutions.

Oh beautiful, just look at those Chinese reactions in the article:

“Surely it’s not possible that these documents are still not sufficient proof of her birthdate?” Lu asked. “The passports were issued by the Chinese Foreign Ministry. The identity card was issued by China’s Ministry of Public Security. If these valid documents are not enough to clarify this problem, then what will you believe?

Indeed, if the Ministry of Security of one of the world's worst human rights violators can't be trusted, then who can you trust? ROFL!

China coach Lu Shanzan said the parents are “indignant” over persistent questions about their daughters’ ages.
“It’s not just me. The parents of our athletes are all very indignant,” Lu said. “They have faced groundless suspicion. Why aren’t they believed? Why are their children suspected? Their parents are very angry.”

Why are their children suspected? Because of the government's stupidity, including the mention of the girls' real ages on the Minisry of Sports websites in previous years! Hahaha, I can't believe this. I know some parents who have a right to be angry: the parents of the girls and women who were cheated out of their gold medals because of this fraud.

Oh, and here's a beauty - the Chinese officials are playing the race card:

“At this competition, the Japanese gymnasts were just as small as the Chinese,” he said. “Chinese competitors have for years all been small. It is not just this time. It is a question of race. European and American athletes are all powerful, very robust. But Chinese athletes cannot be like that. They are by nature that small.”

No Sir, it is a question of your own stupid government shooting itself in the foot. Go on, and I will start watching the Games after all, for comic relief.

Hmm, I have to confess that I'm clueless when it comes to gymnastics, but why is being young an advantage in that sport?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Hmm, I have to confess that I'm clueless when it comes to gymnastics, but why is being young an advantage in that sport?

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girls that have not yet gone through puberty have a series of physical advantages in gymnastics....total body weight is lower, center of gravity position in the body is different, general flexibility is higher...etc.

this whole subject will end up coming to a dead end obviously.....the Chinese government issues the documents that state the false ages so they can basically "verify" their own false claims....these medals will obviously be tainted on the general public´s opinion but that´s about as far as it will go.

has anything happened since to publicly out this record tampering?

Since Jamaica, a country with no independent drug testing for ahletes, won just about every track gold medal, I'm considering taking part in the London 2012 Games with a rocket pack on my back. I guess as long as my passport looks okay, I'm in.

Thanks Beijng for these great games! It's been a distinct pleasure having made aquintance with the real China in this way. :2thumbsup:


https://img185.imageshack.us/img185/...0820555pd2.jpg

79-year-old Wu Dianyuan. And her friend Wang Xiuying, 77.

Sentenced to one year of 'reeducation through physical labour in the camps. What for? For protesting the demolishment of their family homes for the Olympics without compensation.

Just two faces out of hundreds of thousands.

Wait - it said on the coverage yesterday that a British diver was fourteen, and he apparently acknowledged that it was true, but he was still competing. Do the regulations differ by sport?

i think it does, being younger is supposed to confer an unnacceptable advantage in sports like gymnastics if i remember correctly.

the age limits vary from sport to sport....I think they are set by the international federation for each individual sport.

Age matters in different sports. In Gymnastics, age confers flexibility, agility, and ignorance. They are more flexible than an older gymnast. They have almost no fear, since they can't comprehend the full scope of their events. The event age limit also prevents them from developing breaks and sprains that could occur on over strained muscles.

Diving is gymnastics with water... I can hardly see how being flexible is not an advantage in diving. So the same explotation that is bad for gymnastics would have to be as bad in diving.

But it is by federation... in football at the olympics there is an upper age limit...

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Oh, and here's a beauty - the Chinese officials are playing the race card:

“At this competition, the Japanese gymnasts were just as small as the Chinese,” he said. “Chinese competitors have for years all been small. It is not just this time. It is a question of race. European and American athletes are all powerful, very robust. But Chinese athletes cannot be like that. They are by nature that small.”

No Sir, it is a question of your own stupid government shooting itself in the foot. Go on, and I will start watching the Games after all, for comic relief.

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You could also point out there more robust large athletes of a 'similar age' in swimming... or the really tall ones in basketball... these kind of point to the lie that 'all chinese' are petite.

Has anyone else seen the footage of Boris Johnson's 'whiff whaff speech' to British athletes after the official hand-over? He looked horrible again in his shabby suit, like a tereotype second hand car salesman, but his speech more than made up for it. I loved the reference to Milo of Croton, and his statement that 'ping-pong ('whiff whaff) is coming home' was sheer brilliance. I dont know that the London Games wll necessarliy be the best, or even successful by modern standards since these standards definitely stink - but they will certainly be the funniest!

Kudos to Alexander de Pfeffel. :2thumbsup:

I saw the closing ceremony and the handing of the flag to Boris. He looked utterly shabby, which lead to two good points:

a) He can't be French.
b) He can't be Facist.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

I saw the closing ceremony and the handing of the flag to Boris. He looked utterly shabby, which lead to two good points:

a) He can't be French.
b) He can't be Facist.

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I can't help but wonder what the hand-off would have been like with Red Ken instead. :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Has anyone else seen the footage of Boris Johnson's 'whiff whaff speech' to British athletes after the official hand-over?

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That was very funny.

Adrian, what is your connection to the U.K.? You seem to show a particular affinity for it in your posts. Have you lived there at all?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Don't worry about that, TevashSzat, CR is still living The American Delusion, where exceptions to the rule somehow prove everything.

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Ah, another whining socialist screed. Why don't you move along and keep acting as though lack of opportunity and not talent is what keeps such whiners back.

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Umm....I don't see how you are rebutting or countering my previous statement; you're just dodging it with a tangential topic.

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No, I was just saying you're completely wrong about people in the US not being able to rise from poverty to great success.

CR

There Is to many sports in the Oypimcs, plus, they get pro basketball players to do basketball, so what the point in that?

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

That was very funny.

Adrian, what is your connection to the U.K.? You seem to show a particular affinity for it in your posts. Have you lived there at all?

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You could say the same with regard to threee other countries. I simply love our neighbours like I love my own country; in many ways I identify with Belgium, France, Germany and the United Kingdom. I grew up visiting them countless times, making friends and acquaintances in all four of them, reading their literature, papers and magazines, watching their movies and tv channels - and of course writing about them. This little cluster of countries embodies the best and the worst of European history and culture and by extension, in my mind, of mankind.

Call me a North Sea-centrist.. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

You could say the same with regard to threee other countries. I simply love our neighbours like I love my own country; in many ways I identify with Belgium, France, Germany and the United Kingdom. I grew up visiting them countless times, making friends and acquaintances in all four of them, reading their literature, papers and magazines, watching their movies and tv channels - and of course writing about them. This little cluster of countries embodies the best and the worst of European history and culture and by extension, in my mind, of mankind.

Call me a North Sea-centrist.. :laugh4:

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Communist

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Communist

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Okay. I read books, I admit it.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Netherlands, Belgium, France, Germany and the United Kingdom.

Call me a North Sea-centrist.. :laugh4:

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Countries, cultures, in my opinion, are difficult to group in exclusive clusters. To speak of Europe as divided in 'Latin', 'Germanic', or Catholic / Protestant / Orthodox is fruitless. Too many overlaps.

Better is the analogy of a ripples in a pond. A certain cultural trait will usually have a clear centre, and ripples out. Europe then, is a pond with many different ciricles, of many clusters of cultures.

The marriage of language and the nationstate in the nineteenth century, at the exclusion of most other cultural identities, has diminshed the prominence of many of these underlying cultural belts, or clusters. But they are still intact.
France is clearly 'Latin', but it also falls within the circle of Northern Europe. Beer drinking Germany and Britain belong to a separate cluster from France, together with the Czechs, Danes and Belgians. As opossed to the wine drinking countries to the south, or the Vodka belt to the east and north. Britain is sometimes Anglosaxon, and sometimes European. Etcetera.

What then, this is my question, is the common denominator between your five countries? Apart from sharing in the fortune of being Belgium's immediate neighbours, is there a common denominator, a North Sea culture?

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

The marriage of language and the nationstate in the nineteenth century, at the exclusion of most other cultural identities, has diminshed the prominence of many of these underlying cultural belts, or clusters. But they are still intact.

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Without a doubt, esteemed colleague. Though I would point out that a narrative analysis of contemporary identity formation marginalizes extraterritorial influences.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

What then, this is my question, is the common denominator between your five countries?

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This, then, is my answer: I like them.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

This, then, is my answer: I like them.

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And so do I, no really.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

What then, this is my question, is the common denominator between your five countries? Apart from sharing in the fortune of being Belgium's immediate neighbours, is there a common denominator, a North Sea culture?

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The five biggest colonial powers at one point. :sweatdrop:
Yet now five of the most influential and stable democracies around...

Good models for positive upwards trend, even if some of them are two steps forward and one step back.

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Originally Posted by Husar

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

This, then, is my answer: I like them.

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And so do I, no really.

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That's what worries me! :sweatdrop: *









only kidding. :beam:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Countries, cultures, in my opinion, are difficult to group in exclusive clusters. To speak of Europe as divided in 'Latin', 'Germanic', or Catholic / Protestant / Orthodox is fruitless. Too many overlaps.

Better is the analogy of a ripples in a pond. A certain cultural trait will usually have a clear centre, and ripples out. Europe then, is a pond with many different ciricles, of many clusters of cultures.

The marriage of language and the nationstate in the nineteenth century, at the exclusion of most other cultural identities, has diminshed the prominence of many of these underlying cultural belts, or clusters. But they are still intact.
France is clearly 'Latin', but it also falls within the circle of Northern Europe. Beer drinking Germany and Britain belong to a separate cluster from France, together with the Czechs, Danes and Belgians. As opossed to the wine drinking countries to the south, or the Vodka belt to the east and north. Britain is sometimes Anglosaxon, and sometimes European. Etcetera.

What then, this is my question, is the common denominator between your five countries? Apart from sharing in the fortune of being Belgium's immediate neighbours, is there a common denominator, a North Sea culture?

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Communist

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Communist

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Texan! :stare:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Texan! :stare:

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:fainting:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Texan! :stare:

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Compliment! :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Texan! :stare:

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You and the other europeans should start some kind of union

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

You and the other europeans should start some kind of union

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You guys don't have the guts to secede.

https://img222.imageshack.us/img222/...scbdbd7.th.jpg

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

You guys don't have the guts to secede.

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LOL.

Maybe Russia should issue passports to Texans.:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

You guys don't have the guts to secede.

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Haha :laugh4: :2thumbsup:

.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So who else isn't watching this stupendous display of trivia and hysteria? You aan I are probably the only ones and we may not even agree on the reason why we don't watch.

I don't watch because the games are kitsch. They represent power politics, big money and chauvinism and have nothing to do with sports, certainly not amateur sports, although they profess to be about nothing but the latter.

Feng Jianzhong, deputy chief of the Chinese Sports Affairs Bureau, has stated that the last candidate to bear the Olympic torch would 'represent the image of China, can communicate with the world and can show the Olympic spirit.' Well, Mr Li Ning, of Li Ning Sportswear Ltd, certainly did. His company made a handsome profit on the Hong Kong stock exchange this week. And not only the fireworks were fake, so was the singing of the Chinese hymn. No doubt most sports victories are fake, too, although you never know which one until the drugs tests are in, the corrupt judges are smoked out (which they never are) and the real women are separated from the steroid hybrids.

Call me oldfashioned, but to me it's simply distasteful to see all those vain, empty-headed sports figures assembling in one of the world's worst dictatorships and doing their inane little routines with balls and spears and stuff, and all the world is watching it on tv and going 'aaah', oblivious of the millions of slaves in China's camp system, some of whom live not far from Beijing since they had to help build some of the facilities.

Bah. At least the Roman circuses were the real deal, they weren't effeminate celebrations of commercialism that destroyed the manly spirit of the observers; they inspired them to face wounds and death scornfully, to celebrate the glory and victory even of criminals and slaves as long as they demonstrated aptitude, courage and persistence.

But wait, the Chinese have Christians, don't they? Why don't they throw some of them to the pandas lions? They kill them in prisons, underground cellars and work camps, so why not in public?

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Not only have I been uninterested since '88 Seoul, I have deliberately ignored the dirty advertisement of Red China Ltd., the most horrendous slave driving community of modern ages; violater of the most basic huamn rights of its subjects; invader and oppressor of at least three countries (being "Inner" Mongolia, Eastern Turkestan and Tibet) and who knows how many ethnic, religious or cultural entities.

I have been showing my own little passive resistence in my forum signature for quite a while. See my user page for details.
.

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Originally Posted by Mouzafphaerre

.

Not only have I been uninterested since '88 Seoul, I have deliberately ignored the dirty advertisement of Red China Ltd., the most horrendous slave driving community of modern ages; violator of the most basic human rights of its subjects; invader and oppressor of at least three countries (being "Inner" Mongolia, Eastern Turkestan and Tibet) and who knows how many ethnic, religious or cultural entities.

I have been showing my own little passive resistance in my forum signature for quite a while. See my user page for details.
.

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East Turkestan is a joke, and a rather bad one at that. Xinjiang has less political legitimacy than Tibet, and that's saying something.

As for Turkey itself, I have more than my share of issues regarding it *cough* Kurdistan *cough*

About Mongolia, it's easier to just to say that China belongs to Mongolia and not the other way around :tongue2:

.
I'm not here (or anywhere else) advocating the Turkish İttihad-Terakki/Republic regime's policies, and myself being an outright promoter of Kurdish rights and a pupil of language and literature thereof, your nagging is moot. You may proceed with bringing up the Armenian genocide maybe. Be my guest. My words are the same, no matter what person or community, maybe with the exception of not having ever been able to study any Armenian.

Eastern Turkestan had been a sovereign state with established government, armed forces etc. until being utterly invaded by the Communist 8th army in 1948, not without prior attempts, some successful, of invasion. Some resistance survived until 1949 but masses of people were forced to flee, the majority perishing crossing the Hindukush and Taklamakan, a few thousands managed to seek asylum in India and -later- Turkey.

I do not necessarily promote new independent states of "Inner" Mongolia, Eastern Turkestan or Tibet myself. Principally I'm against ethnic-based political fragmentation and nation states. What concerns me are human rights (and those of other living things where applicable); in China, Turkey or elsewhere.
.

I feel I am missing out!

I hereby violently protest the hosting of the games by Beijing! The Chinese regime is a crypto-fascist neo-com repressive machine!

:balloon2: Free Tibet! :balloon2:

Got to see what DA wil come up with for a retort about vile French behaviour. :sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I feel I am missing out!

I hereby violently protest the hosting of the games by Beijing! The Chinese regime is a crypto-fascist neo-com repressive machine!

:balloon2: Free Tibet! :balloon2:

Got to see what DA wil come up with for a retort about vile French behaviour. :sweatdrop:

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LOL. How can it be crypto-anything if it's a regime? Bravo, again, Louis :bow: .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I feel I am missing out!

I hereby violently protest the hosting of the games by Beijing! The Chinese regime is a crypto-fascist neo-com repressive machine!

:balloon2: Free Tibet! :balloon2:

Got to see what DA wil come up with for a retort about vile French behaviour. :sweatdrop:

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What you say is correct. Buy one Tibet, get another free. :tongue2: As for vile French behavior, the French aren't vile, they're just Losers.

But East Turkestan? It was Xinjiang first, before that, it was the Xiyu. It's only East Turkestan if the Chinese let the locals get uppity.

.
Just read some more Demon. I'm well read enough on the subject. There was no Chinese population in Eastern Turkestan until the 19th century and Xinjiang means (AFAIK, though I might be wronged in this bit) newly conquered land.

The earliest inhabitants were the IE Tokharians. Then came Turkic and Mongolic populations along with some outstretched Iranian communities. It's the very land that the earliest sedentary Turkic community happened in the late VIIIth century, dispersing and assimilating the previous inhabitants.
.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mouzafphaerre

.
Just read some more Demon. I'm well read enough on the subject. There was no Chinese population in Eastern Turkestan until the 19th century and Xinjiang means (AFAIK, though I might be wronged in this bit) newly conquered land.

The earliest inhabitants were the IE Tokharians. Then came Turkic and Mongolic populations along with some outstretched Iranian communities. It's the very land that the earliest sedentary Turkic community happened in the late VIIIth century, dispersing and assimilating the previous inhabitants.
.

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I've read PLENTY. The first time that the Tarim fell under Chinese control was the Han Dynasty, which more or less predates the existence of people you can call "Turkic." Control of the Xiyu is related to how strong China is relative to Mongolia or Transoxiana. Currently, China is the strongest, and it will stay that way for a long time. The Turkic peoples displaced the Persid oasis dwellers in the VIIIth century, so maybe the region should revert to control of a Sogdian speaking people.