Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

[CountArach]

solid gold shut out, baby. sorry aussies.

Oh well, we still have more medals per capita...

[Adrian II]

The Independent has more on the age issue in gymnastics. How much more corrupt can the IOC get?

The controversy over He has been bubbling for a couple of months since the Chinese named her in their team for the Games. Her age, which had previously been given by several official Chinese sources as 14, suddenly became 16, which meets the requirement that competitors must be 16 in the year of the Games.

Two official Chinese gymnastic websites " now blocked" previously gave He's birth date as 1994, making her 14 this year. The China Daily, the government newspaper, profiled her earlier this year and said she was 14. And most compelling of all was a speech in November 2007 when a Chinese official, Liu Peng, introduced He as 13.

link

[DemonArchangel]

Oh hell, between the doping, age scandals, gear scandals, and medal scandals, Olympic Sports are as dirty as they come. There's a reason why I don't watch Olympic Sports. They're nothing but contests on seeing how much you can cheat before getting caught.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Scandal #241

Beijing Olympic opening ceremony guides stripped naked to qualify


Chinese female guides who led each country's athletes into the National Stadium during the Olympic Games opening ceremony had to strip naked as part of the selection process.

Thousands of young women from academies in Beijing applied for the 204 positions to compete for the chance to appear before a huge worldwide audience.

According to reports, the women were measured for their body proportions by teachers who were judging over who was best qualified.

Interviewed by the Beijing News, 20-year-old college student Zhang Fan said that the girls were put in a room where teachers measured them with a ruler.

There is no limit to dirty tricks by dirty old men.

I am already looking forward to seeing how Chinese officials will try to lie their way out of this one. An autocratic regime + saving face at all costs as the highest cultural value makes makes for splendidly imaginative squirming.

[DemonArchangel]

They won't. They'll even admit to having a good time doing it.

[Husar]

I turned on the TV this morning and they showed the women football semifinal between Germany and Brazil and I was pleasantly surprised, the ladies played really well and it was fun to watch.

[Papewaio]

Scandal #241There is no limit to dirty tricks by dirty old men.

I am already looking forward to seeing how Chinese officials will try to lie their way out of this one. An autocratic regime + saving face at all costs as the highest cultural value makes makes for splendidly imaginative squirming.

I think you will find that nudity in Asian in certain situations makes the French look prissy.

In Taiwan there are yearly tests of all students. The girls have to strip naked and be measured by doctors for 'health' reasons. Not sure about the guys, I just remember all the girls I was teaching asking if that was the norm in Aus.

[KarlXII]

This is just a repost of my rather long post in another thread here with some changes here or there:

I am a native Chinese here and was born in Beijing. I'm a permanent resident in the US atm. Didn't really want to get into the discussion before since frankly, I don't want to spend all that time writing posts as long as this one

Anyways, I'll try to give some thoughts, some anecdotes, and basically give you a Chinese viewpoint

Okay first of all, Communism, imo, works on paper but will never even come close to success in real life which is why the only reason the Chinese government hasn't fallen yet is that right now, it's not really even attempting to keep the Communism ideal; its is just communist in name.

As for why we adopted it, keep this in mind. China has a 5000 year history. We, as a civilization, have been one of the most dominant nations in the world until the modern times. We rivaled the Romans, the Greeks, any ancient civilization you can name and ancient China was probably comparable if not better. In China right now, basically these last 100-150 years were called something like the century of downfall when we went from the best in the world to one of the most underdeveloped ones.

The nationalists, who were in power for about 3-4 decades before WWII. They were democratic, but they had horrible corruption and generally did not rule the country well at all. Once Japan invaded China and WWII began, the nationalists lost horribly and the nation was basically razed. Given China's state at that point, I doubt any government could have done too much better, but the nationalists were the government at that time and their failure created the impetus for the rise of the Communist Party. Now might it have been better had the nationalists survived? Perhaps, but you would never know how world history might have changed.

Now, has the Communist government in the past half a century or so done some terrible things? Yes, without a doubt and the people do know that. However, China is one of the great powers of the world now and is only growing in power, which I don't think anyone can deny. Progress has been made and the average person is living MUCH better than half a century ago. As much as the critics blame the Chinese government for human rights issues, there is no doubt that the country has improved tremendously.

Now, many have said that China only improved once the Communist restrictions were lifted, but that is not the full picture. The Cultural Revolution, as horrible as it was, did have a few benefits: it gave a chance to millions of poor farmers and created a generation determined to succeed. My father was born is a very very poor village in one of the poorest provinces in China. He literally lived in a mud hut, his father was a blacksmith, and they sold crops for a living and this was in the 60s/70s. In any nation, he would basically grow up like his father and would never improve in socioeconomic status.

Now, the cultural revolution equaled the educational opportunities between rural and urban areas. My father studied hard and managed to get into one of the best medical schools in the country. He graduated and became a cardiologist. Now, with a more capitalistic kinda society setting in, there is absolutely 100% no chance of that happening. NO CHANCE. I don't care if the child is as smart as Albert Einstein, but the simply fact is that if your family background is that poor, the disparity between rural and urban areas is too large for anyone to cross

As for the Tibet issue, this is what the people feel: Before China went in, Tibet was terribly backwards, even by Chinese standards at that time, which is saying alot. Now, Tibet has improved tremendously, even for the natives there. For gods sake, I've seen monks using cell phones in Tibet. Now, lots of people have been killed in Tibet, but so have millions in rest of China so most people feel that there is nothing special or overly harsh that Tibet has suffered through.

Essentially, most people see Tibet trying to get independence right after it has gained a tremendous amount of benefit from China and tons of investment. Its akin to something like Hawaii wanting independence right now from the US (well, thats not the best comparison there, but still). Hawaii, btw, only joined the United States because the wealthy sugar plantation owners and what not started a Coup to overthrow Hawaii's rightful government.

I can say that for the near future, barring some major change in world politics, Tibet will never be free. If it declares independence, China will surely invade and crush the opposition easily. Now, don't say that the US will help or anything because it won't. Just look at Georgia and Russia right now. Georgia is actually a sovereign nation and all the US is doing is sending in humanitarian supplies....

China and US have too much of a symbiotic relationship for either country to break off relations. US needs China for borrowing money for government debts and for cheap Chinese goods. Without Chinese goods, the US economy will downspiral and crash and there will be another great depression. China needs US consumers to buy Chinese goods and if US stops buying them, the Chinese boom will collapse and there will be a great depression too.

So.... this 862 word reply is finally finished.....and yeah. Kinda a semi rant, but I'm hopefully coherent enough there. Please don't end up making me write another one because this really takes up alot of time....

Another addition here: I feel that the Western mindset is very different from the Chinese mindset. Western nations are outraged bu China's human right violations and I am too up to a point. Keep in mind, though, that to a vast majority of the Chinese, fighting local government corruption is much bigger on their priorities than making sure they have freedom of speech or religion. In fact, those arguing for Tibet and the Xinjiang independence are considered to be on the fringe and radicals in China.

Tl;dr

[Crazed Rabbit]

Now, with a more capitalistic kinda society setting in, there is absolutely 100% no chance of that happening. NO CHANCE. I don't care if the child is as smart as Albert Einstein, but the simply fact is that if your family background is that poor, the disparity between rural and urban areas is too large for anyone to cross

WRONG.

Oh, and it's going to be fun watching the impending environmental disaster from how China has so seriously abused its environment. Well, not fun, but interesting at least.

I have to wonder at people saying; oh China's gov't has done so much good. Now, they control the news, don't they? So you can't really get an honest opinion about what's happening.

And furthermore; how can it be said China wouldn't be farther along if they weren't burdened witht he government they have now; look at the rise of South Korea.

CR

[TevashSzat]

WRONG.

Oh, and it's going to be fun watching the impending environmental disaster from how China has so seriously abused its environment. Well, not fun, but interesting at least.

I have to wonder at people saying; oh China's gov't has done so much good. Now, they control the news, don't they? So you can't really get an honest opinion about what's happening.

And furthermore; how can it be said China wouldn't be farther along if they weren't burdened witht he government they have now; look at the rise of South Korea.

CR

Umm....I don't see how you are rebutting or countering my previous statement; you're just dodging it with a tangential topic.

Anyways, my family has experienced lots of the Chinese government's horrible deeds so don't you think that I don't know what horrible things has happened.

My grandmother's family used to own a whole mountain range and all of the villages/peasants working on the land there, but then it was taken away by the communists. Several family members have died due to the communists and my grandfather is now living in quite poor conditions right now again due to them.

And regarding your second statement, the thing is no one knows. It might be better, or the government might have collapsed. It is important to note that South Korea and China were in very different situations. Indeed, had the international community supported the nationalists much more substantially in the Sino Japanese war, I would say with about 80% certainty that it would have survived WW2 and might still be in power today

[Louis VI the Fat]

I think you will find that nudity in Asian in certain situations makes the French look prissy.

In Taiwan there are yearly tests of all students. The girls have to strip naked and be measured by doctors for 'health' reasons. Not sure about the guys, I just remember all the girls I was teaching asking if that was the norm in Aus.

It suddenly occurs to me that I haven't the faintest clue about nudity and normalcy in East Asia. Or the normalcy of abnormalcy.

I am just hoping for as many scandals as possible. The spotlight of the Olympics beams in both directions. The hosts can hope to use it to advertise their magnificence. But it can also be used to draw attention to and magnify their shortcomings. Both within and outside of China.

[Tristuskhan]

My grandmother's family used to own a whole mountain range and all of the villages/peasants working on the land there

Good old times, for sure

Indeed, had the international community supported the nationalists much more substantially in the Sino Japanese war, I would say with about 80% certainty that it would have survived WW2

Do you mean the landlords would have been able to... mmm... "deal with" the massive popular discontent their feudal rule brought and fed? That's really questionnable. The outstanding accomplishments of Taiwan (and by the way, it's the same for South Korea) were only possible with the need for the GMD to compete with communist China in order to justify their rule. If there was not an ennemy, GMD would have remained the same bunch of corrupt and inept feudals it was between 1930 and the fifties, probably (at that time their kept corruption as a tradition, but became competent at least, and democrats later)

[HoreTore]

Umm....I don't see how you are rebutting or countering my previous statement; you're just dodging it with a tangential topic.

Don't worry about that, TevashSzat, CR is still living The American Delusion, where exceptions to the rule somehow prove everything.

[yesdachi]

...had to strip naked as part of the selection process.

I am looking into getting this to be part of the standard screening process for new employees where I work.

It does make me wonder if more people would take better care of themselves if they knew they could not get a job if they didn’t look fat or ugly.

[JR-]

whoa, china shot up the gold rankings since i last checked, leaving the US in the dust!

Please use the designated protest zones for unfurling flags about Tibet. Also, please shut up about Tibet.

these people requested use of the dedicated protest zones and got sentenced to a year's ‘re-education through labour':
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/peter_f...ser_in_beijing

[JR-]

are there any updating lists of medals per-capita and medals per GDP by any chance, might make interesting reading............?

I'm actually surprised at the level of mercy the Chinese government has show in Tibet, when we simply could have killed them all, sort of like what the Europeans did to the African natives.

i can find only one reference to genocide relating to african colonialism, and it was by germany rather than all european colonial nations all the time wherever we went in africa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_Genocide

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

i can find only one reference to genocide relating to african colonialism, and it was by germany rather than all european colonial nations all the time wherever we went in africa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_Genocide

I can think of two more. The British concentration camps in the Second Boer War and the Belgian Congo.

[JR-]

I can think of two more. The British concentration camps in the Second Boer War and the Belgian Congo.

the british concentration camps had nothing to do with genocide, to say as much is to make a unjustified allusion to what the nazi's were up to.

and as far as i can tell there was no attempt at genocide in the belgian congo, no matter how repugnant belgian colonialism was.

[Husar]

Well, so I guess genocide is our invention and our speciality.
Makes me feel all special and evil like every teenager wants to be...

So basically, considering the topic title, this is about how the olympic games are bad because China is bad and the only other nation as bad as China is Germany and I should be ashamed for being a chinese by association and liking women's football when it is played in China?

[JR-]

sorry, i did not mean to intimate that, i could only find one specific wiki reference to genocide in relation to african colonialism. :)

[Louis VI the Fat]

Well, so I guess genocide is our invention and our speciality.
Makes me feel all special and evil like every teenager wants to be...

So basically, considering the topic title, this is about how the olympic games are bad because China is bad and the only other nation as bad as China is Germany and I should be ashamed for being a chinese by association and liking women's football when it is played in China?

Oh, don't be a crybaby or you'll never get laid. WWII was two hundred years ago and nobody cares about it.

More importantly, don't watch women's footy! Girls don't dig guys with freak perversions like that. Be a man. Play football yourself. In a park, not at a club.
When a girl you fancy comes along, you solo in Maradona style through six opponents and score with a cracking belter, through the goalkeeper's legs. Then you take a break 'because these guys obviously aren't any match for your skillz', and you chat up the girl. Then, when one of your mates sees a nice girl, six others of you suddenly become spastic and it's his turn to put on a show. Girls never figure that sort of stuff out.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

the british concentration camps had nothing to do with genocide, to say as much is to make a unjustified allusion to what the nazi's were up to.

From Wiki:

As Boer farms were destroyed by the British under their "Scorched Earth" policy - including the systematic destruction of crops and slaughtering of livestock, the burning down of homesteads and farms, and the poisoning of wells and salting of fields - to prevent the Boers from resupplying from a home base many tens of thousands of women and children were forcibly moved into the concentration camps. This was not the first appearance of internment camps. The Spanish had used internment in the Ten Years' War that later led to the Spanish-American War, and the United States had used them to devastate guerrilla forces during the Philippine-American War. But the Boer War concentration camp system was the first time that a whole nation had been systematically targeted, and the first in which some whole regions had been depopulated.

and as far as i can tell there was no attempt at genocide in the belgian congo, no matter how repugnant belgian colonialism was.

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDe...88&SESSION=875

[Craterus]

Oh, don't be a crybaby or you'll never get laid. WWII was two hundred years ago and nobody cares about it.

More importantly, don't watch women's footy! Girls don't dig guys with freak perversions like that. Be a man. Play football yourself. In a park, not at a club.
When a girl you fancy comes along, you solo in Maradona style through six opponents and score with a cracking belter, through the goalkeeper's legs. Then you take a break 'because these guys obviously aren't any match for your skillz', and you chat up the girl. Then, when one of your mates sees a nice girl, six others of you suddenly become spastic and it's his turn to put on a show. Girls never figure that sort of stuff out.

I've met very few girls impressed by anything football-related. Once scored 3 and...nothing. She was even watching the game, totally oblivious.

[Louis VI the Fat]

In that case, feign injury and work on their nursing instinct.

[Husar]

Oh, don't be a crybaby or you'll never get laid. WWII was two hundred years ago and nobody cares about it.

More importantly, don't watch women's footy! Girls don't dig guys with freak perversions like that. Be a man. Play football yourself. In a park, not at a club.
When a girl you fancy comes along, you solo in Maradona style through six opponents and score with a cracking belter, through the goalkeeper's legs. Then you take a break 'because these guys obviously aren't any match for your skillz', and you chat up the girl. Then, when one of your mates sees a nice girl, six others of you suddenly become spastic and it's his turn to put on a show. Girls never figure that sort of stuff out.

[JR-]

From Wiki:
http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDe...88&SESSION=875

i dunno what your definition of genocide is, but the boer concentration camps are not it.

i accept the link about the bongo with little surprise given that i accept belgian colonialism was about the most repugnant form: "and as far as i can tell there was no attempt at genocide in the belgian congo, no matter how repugnant belgian colonialism was."

[ajaxfetish]

The Boer excerpt from Wiki sounds like 'ethnic cleansing,' but not quite genocide.

Ajax

[Adrian II]

Looks like the gymnatics age issue is going live. Yes Sir, five out of six girlie gymnasts are now officially suspect. What makes me laugh hardest is that the Chinese state media themselves directed attention to the issue by stating the girls' real ages in their columns in previous years. What was it an American political scientist said years ago? He said that dictatorships breed 'structuraly induced stupidity' in their people and institutions.

Oh beautiful, just look at those Chinese reactions in the article:

“Surely it’s not possible that these documents are still not sufficient proof of her birthdate?” Lu asked. “The passports were issued by the Chinese Foreign Ministry. The identity card was issued by China’s Ministry of Public Security. If these valid documents are not enough to clarify this problem, then what will you believe?

Indeed, if the Ministry of Security of one of the world's worst human rights violators can't be trusted, then who can you trust? ROFL!

China coach Lu Shanzan said the parents are “indignant” over persistent questions about their daughters’ ages.
“It’s not just me. The parents of our athletes are all very indignant,” Lu said. “They have faced groundless suspicion. Why aren’t they believed? Why are their children suspected? Their parents are very angry.”

Why are their children suspected? Because of the government's stupidity, including the mention of the girls' real ages on the Minisry of Sports websites in previous years! Hahaha, I can't believe this. I know some parents who have a right to be angry: the parents of the girls and women who were cheated out of their gold medals because of this fraud.

Oh, and here's a beauty - the Chinese officials are playing the race card:

“At this competition, the Japanese gymnasts were just as small as the Chinese,” he said. “Chinese competitors have for years all been small. It is not just this time. It is a question of race. European and American athletes are all powerful, very robust. But Chinese athletes cannot be like that. They are by nature that small.”

No Sir, it is a question of your own stupid government shooting itself in the foot. Go on, and I will start watching the Games after all, for comic relief.

[HoreTore]

Hmm, I have to confess that I'm clueless when it comes to gymnastics, but why is being young an advantage in that sport?

[Ronin]

Hmm, I have to confess that I'm clueless when it comes to gymnastics, but why is being young an advantage in that sport?

girls that have not yet gone through puberty have a series of physical advantages in gymnastics....total body weight is lower, center of gravity position in the body is different, general flexibility is higher...etc.

this whole subject will end up coming to a dead end obviously.....the Chinese government issues the documents that state the false ages so they can basically "verify" their own false claims....these medals will obviously be tainted on the general public´s opinion but that´s about as far as it will go.