Jorg Haider is Dead

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

No I think you misunderstand me. I'm saying that both were instances of ethnic cleansing. The scale of the Holocaust was larger, but both involved state sanctioned murder and concentration camps.

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Sadly, the term ethnic cleaning does by itself lack the distinction between ethnically cleansing region and a complete ethnic cleansing. While still both are hideous crimes, there's still a difference that's larger than simply size.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Do you honestly believe anyone at that debate didn't know what he meant when he said "the punishment camps of National Socialism"?

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So why the change of a generally accepted word into something that can (and often will) imply guilt? This rewriting of terms is a classical move in propaganda.

For example, what do you think of the teaching facilities in the Communist states?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Also known a re-education centers, the nice term for political prisons. :juggle:

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

Oh absolutely - I agree. The Totenkopfverbande and Allgemaine SS should be humiliated for their horrors forever. Waffen-SS groups who never had anything to do with purges and most likely had no idea they were going on should be honored like we honor U.S. Marines today for their sacrifice and heroism. They gave their lives to defend a Germany that they believed was right and good, even though at that point it wasn't.

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Umm, no, not unless those groups had nothing to do with the barbarity if German conquests in Europe. They gave their lives to conquer entire nations, the fact that they may have died on German soil is the price they payed for such actions.

Them being SS fanatics, I reckons it is certain they did commit attrocities. Not just spur of the moment things in the heat of battle, but for reasons of mission and belief.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

The RAF and USAAF also committed atrocities, as well as the Red Army. We shouldn't honour them either, by this logic.

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It was the bloody Nazis who wanted to exterminate all undesirables off the face of the bloody earth.
It was the bloody Nazis who started the whole damned thing.:dizzy2:

Eh, if you cannot judge a party/government by their common agenda Panzer, then going to a ballot and having to make a cross behind one or two parties, instead of hundreds of individuals, sounds like quite a bad idea.
I mean you just proved how stupid it is to form groups and parties based on perceived similarities but almost everyone does it anyways. :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Kukri

I don't yet find word of the man's funeral, so let us observe a 72-hour moratorium on criticising his career, out of respect for his survivors.

Open season, therefore Tuesday, 14 October, 1200 GMT.

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We were doing OK while keeping the discussion general, and off Herr Haider. But we've delved into criticism of of his career anyway.

Therefore: closed until Tuesday.

Oops, my bad. I totally forgot about Tuesday, and here it is Thursday night.

Reopened, presuming the man has been interred by now.

Sympathies to his family. :bow:

Open season.

Don't drink and drive:(

I would never have voted for him, but as a politician he brought new life into Austrian politics.

He said many things that were true, but very not politicly correct.

My favourite was when he showed how hypocritical the EU was. When he got voted into the government, EU boycoted Austria for a while, since they had voted for a extreme right wing party.

Oh how strong democracy is! Right?

"You can vote for whoever you want, as long as you don't vote wrong"

This happening led me to get expelled from "society" class, as I claimed it was idiocy for a democratic institution like the EU to not accept a democratic vote.

Oh, the good old times;)

Anyway, rest in peace.

:austria:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Don't drink and drive:(

My favourite was when he showed how hypocritical the EU was. When he got voted into the government, EU boycoted Austria for a while, since they had voted for a extreme right wing party.

Oh how strong democracy is! Right?

"You can vote for whoever you want, as long as you don't vote wrong"

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So what ? You admit he was leading a far-right party, and then expect the EU to quietly sit and wait to see how things are going in Austria ?
In the - I admit, quite unlikely - event he would have started some crazy far-right policy, you would then have blamed the EU because 'it didn't do anything ! :-('

The EU did not invade Austria, nor did it push him out of the office. It boycotted Austria, as it was perfectly entitled to do in that case.
Would Le Pen have won the 2002 elections in France, I'm fairly sure - and hope - he would have been boycotted by the EU.

So yeah, do not rest in peace, you were an ass and died in a stupid way.

What is left of democracy when an outcome of a democratic election is not accepted within EU?

Are we free to vote, or restricted in our votes?

It is a vital question. The EU in this case did not behave democraticly.

It would be something different if it was a country outside of the EU, but to not respect teh democratic outcome of a member state?

*rolleyes*

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

So what ? You admit he was leading a far-right party, and then expect the EU to quietly sit and wait to see how things are going in Austria ?
In the - I admit, quite unlikely - event he would have started some crazy far-right policy, you would then have blamed the EU because 'it didn't do anything ! :-('

The EU did not invade Austria, nor did it push him out of the office. It boycotted Austria, as it was perfectly entitled to do in that case.
Would Le Pen have won the 2002 elections in France, I'm fairly sure - and hope - he would have been boycotted by the EU.

So yeah, do not rest in peace, you were an ass and died in a stupid way.

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Is there any wonder why the EU is having a hard time sealing the deal? I dont think most people want to restrict democracy within the bounds of what the EU finds acceptable or to be punished when they elect an EU critic.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

So what ? You admit he was leading a far-right party, and then expect the EU to quietly sit and wait to see how things are going in Austria ?
In the - I admit, quite unlikely - event he would have started some crazy far-right policy, you would then have blamed the EU because 'it didn't do anything ! :-('

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Did I really just read this?

I could not agree more with Meneldil. The EU is not the United Nations, it is instead an assembly of democracies. Franco couldn't join, Salazar couldn't join, the Greek colonels couldn't join, the communists states couldn't join. Not until they were democracies they couldn't. Similarly, if a country lapses into an undemocratic system, it will get kicked out. Less dramatic, if it has undemocratic parties in it's government, it risks resistance, even boycott, from other countries.

Like it or not, the EU is about spreading and safeguarding democracy in Europe. So sorry for all our authoritarian politicians out there. Don't like it? Leave. Get on a plane and fly to North Korea or Syria.
We just spend a disastrous century trying to keep communism, fascism, authroritarianism down. It nearly destroyed Europe. Never again.

Was Haider a nazi? Perhaps not.
But is it unreasonable for Europe to be very wary of nazism in Austria? Of Austrian politicians palling around with SS men, of singing the praise of Austrian moral superiority over lesser peoples, of Austrian anti-Semitism and praise for it's dark WWII history?
I think not.

~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~

Haider died as he lived, over the limit and full of gas.
Alcohol promillage of 1.8, and doing 142 km an hour. Thank God he crashed before he hurt any innocents.

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Frag - you whine about Muslims undermining European values and democracy, trying to install Islamofascism. Yet you are disappointed when Europe actually tries to prevent Eurofascism?

TuffStuff - especially for you: you do realise Haider had many extramarital homosexual affairs? He was legendary in the Vienna gay scene. ~;p

PanzerJaeger - On meeting Saddam Hussein in the run-up to the Iraq war, Haider expressed the 'best wishes of the Austrian people and the Freedom party as well as their solidarity with the people of Iraq and their wise leadership'.
You will need to choose, PJ. A man can't both support America and European nazism. They are mortal enemies.

Frag - you whine about Muslims undermining European values and democracy, trying to install Islamofascism. Yet you are disappointed when Europe actually tries to prevent Eurofascism?


I thought you understood my position on the islamisation this is kinda dissapointing. As for Haider, if Haider would be elected would there be no democracy anymore, would there be no opposition, no parlement, he wouldn't be 'in power'. Never really knew him, looking back he is way too extreme for my taste but allowing the EU to intervene in national democratic processes, you kidding me? No way there is nothing that keeps the EU in check. The racist right exists for a reason, that reason being utmost stupidity and sadly the response is even worse if it happens to be the EU.

So does this mean the US gets a free pass from Europe (or at least France) for cutting off the Palestinians when they elected HAMAS? :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I thought you understood my position on the islamisation this is kinda dissapointing.

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Actually, I though you and I shared an open and uncompromising aversion to Islamofascism. ~:grouphug:

You like politicians who break open a few taboos. Who shoot some holes in blind muliticulturalism. Maybe I do too. But where's the fun if we can't cross swords over details? ~;p

Sorry, in 99% of these cases there isn't any room for play that makes one defensive.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Is there any wonder why the EU is having a hard time sealing the deal? I dont think most people want to restrict democracy within the bounds of what the EU finds acceptable or to be punished when they elect an EU critic.

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The EU having a 'hard time sealing the deal' has nothing to do with Jorg Haider. The EU is a mess, that got even more messy with the introduction of 12 new members.

But as Louis said, the EU isn't all about 'free trade and single market', wether our british friends like it or not. It has political aims, such as you know, protecting democracy and all that kind of things.

I'm pretty sure that, would Jorg Haider have been the leader of the Austrian Communist Party, you would all have been like 'Zomg a communist is elected in Europe and the EU isn't doing anything :''''''( '

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

I'm pretty sure that, would Jorg Haider have been the leader of the Austrian Communist Party, you would all have been like 'Zomg a communist is elected in Europe and the EU isn't doing anything :''''''( '

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Who is the leader of the austian communist party?

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I could not agree more with Meneldil. The EU is not the United Nations, it is instead an assembly of democracies. Franco couldn't join, Salazar couldn't join, the Greek colonels couldn't join, the communists states couldn't join. Not until they were democracies they couldn't. Similarly, if a country lapses into an undemocratic system, it will get kicked out. Less dramatic, if it has undemocratic parties in it's government, it risks resistance, even boycott, from other countries.

Like it or not, the EU is about spreading and safeguarding democracy in Europe. So sorry for all our authoritarian politicians out there. Don't like it? Leave. Get on a plane and fly to North Korea or Syria.
We just spend a disastrous century trying to keep communism, fascism, authroritarianism down. It nearly destroyed Europe. Never again.

Was Haider a nazi? Perhaps not.
But is it unreasonable for Europe to be very wary of nazism in Austria? Of Austrian politicians palling around with SS men, of singing the praise of Austrian moral superiority over lesser peoples, of Austrian anti-Semitism and praise for it's dark WWII history?
I think not.

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That's all well and good, but Haider was a democratically elected politician who made no attempts to change that system. If the EU wants to bully countries that elect anti-eu politicians, thats their perogative - but don't try and dress it up as anything other than that.

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PanzerJaeger - On meeting Saddam Hussein in the run-up to the Iraq war, Haider expressed the 'best wishes of the Austrian people and the Freedom party as well as their solidarity with the people of Iraq and their wise leadership'.

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You act as though his sentiments on the Iraq conflict were unique to Europeans. Most Europeans sought to undermine US efforts. Your own president at the time gave Saddam far more support than Haider ever could have by seriously damaging the transatlantic alliance.

In any event, I do not support every position he held, but I don't discount him completely for those disagreements.

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You will need to choose, PJ. A man can't both support America and European nazism. They are mortal enemies.

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Nazism is dead. I support honoring the brave German soldiers who fought and died in WW2; and moving past myth of German exceptionalism in the "evil" department.


Also, poor show trying to use the man's sexuality to dissuade his supporters, as if it has anything to do with the discussion. You'd make a wonderful Republican. ~;)

What is German exceptionalism and why is it evil?

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

What is German exceptionalism and why is it evil?

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I would imagine it's just the German version of American exceptionalism.

And although I think "evil" is a dramatic word, I think the reason any "exceptionalism" is bad is because it is basically embracing the idea that you are better, rules don't apply the same way to you, you rise above other people or countries, etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

What is German exceptionalism and why is it evil?

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"exceptionalism in the 'evil' department"

I was referring to the notion that the Holocaust is somehow a unique event in human history, or even in the Second World War - and thus makes the Germans exceptionally "evil". Sadly, ethnic cleansing was a relatively common occurrence throughout much of history - and still is. As horrific and shameful as the Holocaust was, it was neither the largest in scale nor the most brutal in nature - even in terms of WW2.

A Russian politician who praises the Red Army is not automatically assumed to support wanton genocide and neither is an proud American politician assumed to support using nuclear weapons against innocent women and children. Yet somehow a German or Austrian politician who acknowledges the heroism and sacrifice of honorable German soldiers is assumed to hold Nazi views. It's a double standard that is thankfully subsiding as we move farther from the conflict.

Just to be clear, I'm in no way discounting the atrocity that was the Holocaust in any way. I just feel it gets an inordinate amount of attention for reasons that are not historically justified. It has become a profitable industry.. and frankly, the deliciously evil German archetype is much more interesting to portray in movies and such than some bland and obscure Russian gulag commandant.

Louis, there were rumors about Mr. Haider being homosexual, but to my knowledge, they were not conclusively proven. Either way, however, it wouldn't have mattered - are you trying to bait TSM, or are you turning into a member of the evangelical right? ~;)

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Punishment does not impart guilt. I could punish you for something you did not do. Describing the camps as "punishment camps" is accurate.

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Yeah, yeah, I'm not into discussing dictionary definitions. All I am in fact saying is that the typical meaning of the word punishment camp actually refers to a camp where someone who has done something society frowns upon is sent.

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Besides, as I highlighted, this was simply a passing reference during a debate. It is not as if the man gave a speech about it.

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Relevant to my reply just above; could you possibly ever happen to refer to a concentration camp as a punishment camp by accident? What are the odds? How often have one not heard the word 'concentration camp' and being fully aware of its meaning? Personally, I have never ever made such a mixup and have a rather...hard time imagining how I could.

Haider was a cocaine sniffing pederast.

I brought it up, not so much because I mind - except for Haider's incereasing tendency to rape fifteen year old Slovakian boys for kicks - but because I have an inkling that it might dissuade TuffStuffMcGruff away from him. TSM expressed some curiousity about Haider. Now he knows who Haider is.
Did I mention yet that our hypocrite portrayed himself as a family man? Married with children and all that?

I'm sorry I only have a German link. However, the accompanying pictures should suffice.


No more cocaine-imbued rape-fests of Slovakian children for you, Jörg! Auf Wiedersehn!

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I'm sorry I only have a German link. However, the accompanying pictures should suffice.

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Come on Louis, a better source if you please. I'd at least like some guarantee that those aren't photoshopped.

I did hear that Haider was going to be cremated , but there is a rumour that the crematoria are only a myth .

Links for Haider's homosexuality?

Here you go.

Oops, that was a link to a recently unveiled Berlin monument to homosexual nazi-victims. So sorry about that.


Did I mention yet that Haider was big friends with the SS troops that were responsible for the extermination of his homosexual friends? The guy ought to make his mind up. Tsk.


Here you go:
Haider got drunk in a gay bar. He seemed to have enjoyed himself - his alcohol promillage was four times the legal limit. In fact, he enjoyed himself so much, that he almost forgot he was supposed to be at his ninety-year old mother's birthday, where his family was waiting for him. So Haider speeded over there, with utter disregard for the lives of his fellow Austrian drivers and pedestrains. Then he crashed himself to death.
English language link.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

I did hear that Haider was going to be cremated , but there is a rumour that the crematoria are only a myth.

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:laugh4:

PanzerJaeger, rather than adressing your post point-by-point, I'll share this:

Austria, of course, had nothing to fear from a European political boycott. Because, as a reward, Haider was supplied cheap oil from Israel's mortal enemies: Arab dictatorships. All Haider had to do was buddy up with his friends, the anti-Semitists and the anti-Americans of this world.

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Controversial Austrian politician Joerg Haider has caused a stir by arranging petrol prices some 12% lower than the national average in the province where he is governor.

Mr Haider has declined to specify where he acquired the petrol, but political commentators in Austria are linking the cheap oil purchase with Mr Haider's recent meeting with Libyan President, Muammar Gaddafi.

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No wonder Haider was enduringly popular with his province's hard-right electorate. The double whammy of supporting anti-American terrorism and thereby guaranteeing favourable oil prices for his province did the trick.

Of course, it is no wonder that Haider and his close personal friends Gadaffi and Saddam got along so well. Each shared an intense hatred of their mortal enemies Israel and the United States. And based their foreign political goals on the destruction of both states.
I am sorry to report that I do not take kindly to people who fanatically hate America.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Austria's Freedom Party has defended far-right politician Joerg Haider's meeting in Baghdad with Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, who used the occasion to urge Europe to distance itself from the United States.

The party said Mr Haider's trip to the Iraqi capital was a "courageous" humanitarian initiative designed to supplement the activities of the Austrian Foreign Ministry, although a ministry spokesman indicated his department had not been fully informed of the mission.

Speaking next to Mr Haider on Tuesday, the Iraqi president launched into a scathing attack on the US - and urged Washington to consider why the terrorist attacks of 11 September had occurred in America, and not in Europe.


Correspondents say the trip appears likely to cause some embarrassment among members of the conservative People's Party, with whom the Freedom Party sits in the Vienna government.


Iraq has also been seeking to improve its ties with the outside world in the face of renewed US military threats. President Hussein said during his meeting with Mr Haider that he hoped to develop relations with Austria, and strengthen contacts between his own ruling Baath party and the Freedom Party. Freedom Party delegates have in the past travelled to Iraq on "fact-finding" missions, returning with reports on the humanitarian situation in the country.

Mr Haider has also personally nurtured ties in the Middle East. Last November he travelled to Iran and Syria, and was recently seen in Vienna with the son of Libya leader Muammar Gaddafi.

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Did I mention yet that for years Haider had a close, enduring and 'special relationship' with the homosexual son of Gadaffi?

EMFM: German link for you, that talks about the implications of Haider and outing him as homosexual.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

EMFM: German link for you, that talks about the implications of Haider and outing him as homosexual.

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Whether he was a homosexual or not is a matter of some debate, and I thank you for your convincing side of the argument and the link, I'll read it when it's not so late. :bow:

At the same time, it doesn't really matter to me whether he was homosexual or not, since his private life is his own business and I don't really care which way people like to go. I'd vote based on merit, but I'm sure someone will continue the debate on the issue. ~:)

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Whether he was a homosexual or not is a matter of some debate, and I thank you for your convincing side of the argument and the link, I'll read it when it's not so late. :bow:

At the same time, it doesn't really matter to me whether he was homosexual or not, since his private life is his own business and I don't really care which way people like to go. I'd vote based on merit, but I'm sure someone will continue the debate on the issue. ~:)

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The problem I had with him was the whole Slovenian-German segregation he tried bringing in, particularly in the schools. We had a lot of people die so that blacks could actually be educated here in the States, and I find it particularly troubling that he tried segregating Slovenians from Germans in the schools. Towns with over 10% Slovenian minority were supposed to have bilingual signs put in, instead, he decided to take down existant ones. After personally moving a sign after it was deemed unconstitutional by the Austrian Supreme Court, he compared himself to Jesus Christ.

Louis, are you implying that haider palled around with terrorists?

As an Austrian I take offence to this thread.

Was he a perfect politician or a perfect man? Nope. Did he say and do some stupid stuff? Yepp.

However, that is not the issue. If you judge someone from the lowest of his abilities anyone would be seen as bad. May I remind you that the large majority of you who post here only know about him from an article or two. That is not the whole picture. I have lived in the country where he was active for a couple of years all in all, and take my word for the fact that he did some good too.

Again, I would never have voted for him. However, I can not honsetly say he didn't serve his country to the best of his abilities.

So he disagreed with a lot of American policys? So do I. Will you gloat if I die too?

Seriosly people, the person in question is dead. Show some respect.

I will gladly further a discussion about Haider with other Austrians who actually know something about him. But this non-Austrian trashtalk about a dead person who spent much of his life fighting for what he believed in is.... tasteless.

I don't like George W. Bush, but I would not gloat if he died either. In fact, I wouldn't gloat if anyone died.

He lived and loved just like you or anyone else.

So please, a little respect in this thread would be in order.



Just my thoughts on the subject.

:austria:

I'm not gloating in his death, I'm merely remarking on my dissatisfation with his segregationist views when it came to Slovenians.

My remark was directed towards "terrorist, drug abuser, homosexual, nazi..." and so on...

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I will gladly further a discussion about Haider with other Austrians who actually know something about him. But this non-Austrian trashtalk about a dead person who spent much of his life fighting for what he believed in is.... tasteless.

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Does that mean its tasteless for non-Austrians to slag off Adolf ?

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Originally Posted by SwedishFish

I'm not gloating in his death, I'm merely remarking on my dissatisfation with his segregationist views when it came to Slovenians.

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Which is fair imho. Every politician is a person in the end, attacking the politics isn't attacking the person. Don't want that, then shut up. Not going to blame people for not being particulary saddened that he's gone. I'm not and I happen to agree with him on a lot of things but I have to draw a line somewhere. There are a lot of good people on the right, can't lose them to the likes of him.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

So what ? You admit he was leading a far-right party, and then expect the EU to quietly sit and wait to see how things are going in Austria ?
In the - I admit, quite unlikely - event he would have started some crazy far-right policy, you would then have blamed the EU because 'it didn't do anything ! :-('

The EU did not invade Austria, nor did it push him out of the office. It boycotted Austria, as it was perfectly entitled to do in that case.
Would Le Pen have won the 2002 elections in France, I'm fairly sure - and hope - he would have been boycotted by the EU.

So yeah, do not rest in peace, you were an ass and died in a stupid way.

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an attitude, that if prevalent among the EU quangocrats, that is another reason why i want the UK to have as little to do with the EU as possible.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I could not agree more with Meneldil. The EU is not the United Nations, it is instead an assembly of democracies. Franco couldn't join, Salazar couldn't join, the Greek colonels couldn't join, the communists states couldn't join. Not until they were democracies they couldn't. Similarly, if a country lapses into an undemocratic system, it will get kicked out. Less dramatic, if it has undemocratic parties in it's government, it risks resistance, even boycott, from other countries.

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that defies belief!
how was the election of haider anything other than democratic?

nb

neither of my comments above indicate any support for haider or his ideas, i would quite frankly be embarassed if my country even came close to electing someone of his ilk.

I will never agree with Haiders ideology but painting him as Nazi goes far to far. If he would be have been an Italian or Czech nobody would have gone so far. And many Italians aka Bossi have more extremist policies than he had.

People should check out Haider's policies on the Wiki page for the Austrian election. They're really not that far-right, whether you agree with him or not.

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Originally Posted by Oleander Ardens

I will never agree with Haiders ideology but painting him as Nazi goes far to far.

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Not if you make an effort out of dragging them in it isn't, perfectly acceptable to hold that against him. Nazi's are scum, they aren't even right they believe in strong government, they are racist totalitarian idiots that is all. The real right is about equality, screw nazi's and anything that comes even remotily close to being close.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Who is the leader of the austian communist party?

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And your point is ?

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an attitude, that if prevalent among the EU quangocrats, that is another reason why i want the
UK to have as little to do with the EU as possible.

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/sadface, we will miss UK so much. Oh wait, UK will never leave EU anyway.

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that defies belief!
how was the election of haider anything other than democratic?

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You're off the point. None said Haider wasn't elected democratically (but then, may I remind you that a lot of :flower: were elected democratically).

What you having a hard time to understand is that Jorg Haider was out of the political spectrum on which are built the basis of an European Community. Thus, the EU as a political entity was perfectly entitled in boycotting him.

Mind you, I can understand all the fuss about the will of the sovereign people of Austria. But if you still believe in 'the will of the people' than I recommend you a reality check.

A lot of countries (including the US) use boycott quite commonly against democratic governments. Why does it suddenly become an issue when the EU boycott a far-right party led by a freak ?

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Seriosly people, the person in question is dead. Show some respect.

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That whole 'You Shall Not Say Bad Things About That Guy Because He's Dead' is probably the worst part of the PC crap that have been enforced over the western world in the last decades.
The guy lost all respect I could have had for him when he decided to drive while intoxicated.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

That whole 'You Shall Not Say Bad Things About That Guy Because He's Dead' is probably the worst part of the PC crap that have been enforced over the western world in the last decades.

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I don't always understand it either, maybe I should talk more about the positive sides of Saddam and Vlad the impaler instead of mentioning their cruel aspects all the time, I mean that's pretty disrespectful of such great politicians who did a lot of good to themselves. :shrug:

Vlad the impaler wasnt that bad... He got a bad name in the west, indeed... But newer (less anti-russ) scientific studies has showed that he was more of a folkhero than a villain...

If you have the time, read up on him. He is a quite fascinating character:)

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

As an Austrian I take offence to this thread.

Seriosly people, the person in question is dead. Show some respect.

I will gladly further a discussion about Haider with other Austrians who actually know something about him. But this non-Austrian trashtalk about a dead person who spent much of his life fighting for what he believed in is.... tasteless.

He lived and loved just like you or anyone else.

So please, a little respect in this thread would be in order.


Just my thoughts on the subject.

:austria:

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Piety and respect, Kadagar? Where's Austria's respect?

Unlike Haider, the victims of WWII are not yet all dead and buried. And yet Austria insists Europe should've simply accepted a nazi provocateur in Austria's government? And pretend as if nothing is going on? As if nothing ever happened? We should just smile and have our picture taken with an Austrian anti-semitic nazi sympathiser? One who lives in a 16.5 million house that his nazi family aquired under controversial circumstances from a fleeing Jew in 1941? And laugh along when Haider makes another one of his anti-Semitic 'jokes'?

Yes, Haider was popular, and did a lot for the self-esteem of some Austrians ('boy, did we show those pesky Europeans good! Aren't we a cool independent lot!')

Here's what: maybe we actually do know something about Haider. Maybe there is a majority of Austrians too who know Haider very well. And maybe they think he is a painful embarrassment to Austria.

I, too, shall end my post the Austrian flag, out of respect for democratic Austria.

:austria:

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Seriosly people, the person in question is dead. Show some respect.

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So are Enver Paşa, Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mustafa Kemal, Pol Pot etc. Whether Haider managed to become one of those in his lifetime doesn't matter. They all get equal respect from me.
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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Unlike Haider, the victims of WWII are not yet all dead and buried. And yet Austria insists Europe should've simply accepted a nazi provocateur in Austria's government? And pretend as if nothing is going on? As if nothing ever happened? We should just smile and have our picture taken with an Austrian anti-semitic nazi sympathiser? One who lives in a 16.5 million house that his nazi family aquired under controversial circumstances from a fleeing Jew in 1941? And laugh along when Haider makes another one of his anti-Semitic 'jokes'?

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Well yes.

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Seriosly people, the person in question is dead. Show some respect.

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Bollox .
Respect = not going to the funeral and then slagging them off in front of the family at the graveside .

A more serious question raises it´s head...

are all right-wing homophobes secretly butt-pirates???

Guardian Article - Jörg Haider's successor claims they where gay lovers


come on......self-hating secret gays are so XX century.....just come out guys....you´ll be happier and we´ll be spared the silly right wing rhetoric.

Franky I don't know nor I care if Haider was gay.

What is surprising, or what isn't, is that a prominent politician on the far right in a German speaking area is for some basically a Nazi under cover. People saying worse in other languages are just on the far right. It is not just offending to victims that a person says silly things about a terrible regime, it is also offending to the victims of the Nazi regime when the term "Nazi" gets thrown around like that.

No it isn't Oleander. Haider is more interesting than a simple nazi, yes. A term which does not fully describe the man and his policies. And indeed, randomly calling everybody a nazi diminishes the term.

An insult to Haider, though, it is not. And even if we can't speak for the dead, certainly, few WWII vivtims think it is an insult to call a nazi a man who meets repeatedly with SS veteran groups, in a house stolen from a fleeing Jew, and praises them as honourable men in between making anti-Semitic remarks.
Outside of Austria, the fabulous world of the internet and the mental realm of socially isolated semi-intellectuals with twisted sympathies, few think it is far fetched to heap scorn at Haider for his nazi provocations.

~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+

I myself, in turn, find it exasparating that whenever a German speaker is called out for nazi provocations, worldwide nazidom reverses the accusation and cries that he is only called a nazi because he is German. Get over the victim complex. Nazis were the perpetrators, they are a bloody disgrace. As importantly, nobody ever thinks of Germany as a nazi state, and the whole world has come to terms with Germany's and Austria's past. All have, except for nazis - the world's biggest crybabies. They murder fifty million, and then cry for decades that everybody is so mean to them and keeps calling them names.

You know, I don't even mind PanzerJaeger. He likes nazis, sympathises with them, and if it were up to him, they'd kill fifty million more. Fine. I can deal with it and debate it. I vehemently disagree, but it doesn't get my back up all the time.
Certainly I respect it more than crybabies who either refuse to acknowledge that the nazis were murderers (the gas chambers are all lies!), or who cry over the evil Russians and British (boohoohoo...they bombed Dresden! ~:mecry:), or who persist in crying that 'we didn't know what was going on in WWII', or who cry that it was all the fault of somebody else. (The Jews! The French! The Americans!)

As for Haider's gayness: yes, it is relevant. Firstly, there is the usual notion that somebody's sexuality is relevant for politicians who portray themselves as conservative family man. Haider lived two lives:

Haider, who voted against a parliamentary motion to lower the age of consent for homosexuals, had presented himself as a family man who drank sparingly. But after the car crash it was revealed that he had been driving at twice the speed limit, his blood alcohol level had been four times the legal limit, and he had spent his final hours in a gay bar in Klagenfurt (Link from Ronin's post above)

Secondly, it is important since this is Austria. A cocaine sniffing pederast nazi provocateur, that is exactly what Haider was. And he was this because he was Austrian. I think I'll do more than just insult Haider. I'll take some swipes at the whole of Austria:
Austria has never come to terms with its nazi past. Much less so than Germany. Austria was not de-nazified like Germany was after WWII. The nazi period was seen as a foreign invasion, an alien aborration of Austria's history. This couldn't be farther from the truth. Nazism has many roots, but certainly Austria's history is among the foremost of them. Nazism is better described as Austro-Balkan nationalism that invaded Germany at a time when Germany was confused and bitter.
Austria has not engaged in some self-criticism. In taking a long, hard look into what made Austria a nazi hotbed, and how this could be prevented.

Behind the tidy, bourgeois façades of Austria - upheld externally and domestically, individually and collectively - something always brews. Be it the rape cellars of family men, secretly gay politicians who vote anti-gay laws, widespread nazi-sympathies from businessmen, perennial anti-Semitism in intellectual powerhouse Vienna, or hatred of Slavs in precisely the Austrian provinces that are inhabited by Germanised Slavs. No wonder Freud was a product of Austria.

That is Austria. And Haider, his complicated character and policies, and his popularity at home, are the unique products of Austria.

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Originally Posted by Ronin

are all right-wing homophobes secretly butt-pirates???

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Lovely link, Ronin. I think he wasn't the lover of Haider though, Just infatuated with him all these years.
I think Haider stuck with Gadaffi - he was his long-term homosexual relationship, and he mixed this with ever younger Slovakian boys for his quick fixes.


And no, not all gays of the hardright are closet homosexuals. Austrians usually are. Americans are too. Toe-tapping family men.
Why? Because of the social conservatism of their countries. Because of the schizophrenia this creates. One wonders whether many didn't turn into hardright conservative 'family men' because of their latent sexual preference in the first place.

Hence, French and Iberian homosexual rightwingers are usually...leftwingers. Socially more tolerant, less religious rigidity, more relaxed about human physicality, they can cope psychologically with their gayness and don't need to supress their inner demons by turning into hardright, obsessive 'family values' men. Psychologically, there is little problem, socially, the societies are not open enough to publically embrace homosexuality, so they choose leftwing progressiveness.

And of course, fully open societies like the Dutch have rightwingers who are openly gay, and who are popular amongst the extreme hardright because of it.

This thread touch a nerve Louie? :clap:

I'll say nothing about the guy, because quite honestly nothing good comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Lovely link, Ronin. I think he wasn't the lover of Haider though, Just infatuated with him all these years.
I think Haider stuck with Gadaffi - he was his long-term homosexual relationship, and he mixed this with ever younger Slovakian boys for his quick fixes.


And no, not all gays of the hardright are closet homosexuals. Austrians usually are. Americans are too. Toe-tapping family men.
Why? Because of the social conservatism of their countries. Because of the schizophrenia this creates. One wonders whether many didn't turn into hardright conservative 'family men' because of their latent sexual preference in the first place.

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Freudian slip? :wiseguy:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Hence, French and Iberian homosexual rightwingers are usually...leftwingers. Socially more tolerant, less religious rigidity, more relaxed about human physicality, they can cope psychologically with their gayness and don't need to supress their inner demons by turning into hardright, obsessive 'family values' men. Psychologically, there is little problem, socially, the societies are not open enough to publically embrace homosexuality, so they choose leftwing progressiveness.

And of course, fully open societies like the Dutch have rightwingers who are openly gay, and who are popular amongst the extreme hardright because of it.

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I don´t know about that...there has been "talk" about the leader of our right wing party for years now....and if it was confirmed to be true he´d be finished politically.

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Originally Posted by Ronin

there has been "talk" about the leader of our right wing party for years now

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Portuguese are all girlie men.

All our big shots of the hard right right have lots of manly testosterone and chesthair - Bruno Mégret, Jean-Marie Le Pen, and Marine Le Pen. :smug:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

All our big shots of the hard right right have lots of manly testosterone and chesthair

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how butch! :biker:

And so, as if life itself had not defeated the man, we have certainly beaten him soundly at least 600 feet more than usual toward the center of the earth.

Thanks for all contributions. Thread is closed before spitting ensues... lest our intrepid posters lose more precious bodily fluids. :bow: