Brainwashing? Christianity seems to be taking weird steps, here at least.

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Originally Posted by Big_John

walk away pever, walk away before it's too late.

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I got bored and I stopped. Never fear.

I do like the discussion it has spawned though.

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Originally Posted by pevergreen

I got bored and I stopped. Never fear.

I do like the discussion it has spawned though.

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Any follow up story on this one pever?

Also, I had a discussion this weekend with a Born again Lutheran on the infallibility of the Bible which coincidently involved Rhyfelwyr's quoted scripture.

Is it getting close? It seems there is a certain awakening in the Christian movement everywhere.

Oh yes!

They both decided to delete me as friends on facebook and they refuse to talk to me, not because they know this, but because they are now going out!

So according to their own beliefs, they are obviously soon to be married :laugh4:

("they" being the lady and the boy who converted her in the first place, who when questioned, said he had no intention of going out with her. We all knew it was a lie :grin2:)

In terms of Christianity, i still dont think it can work until it falls beneath a single umbrella, with a single head, but still allow the different denominations.

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Originally Posted by pevergreen

Oh yes!

They both decided to delete me as friends on facebook and they refuse to talk to me, not because they know this, but because they are now going out!

So according to their own beliefs, they are obviously soon to be married :laugh4:

("they" being the lady and the boy who converted her in the first place, who when questioned, said he had no intention of going out with her. We all knew it was a lie :grin2:)

In terms of Christianity, i still dont think it can work until it falls beneath a single umbrella, with a single head, but still allow the different denominations.

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So the guy used Christianity to get a girl to dump her boyfriend and then asked her out?

Oh man, oh man.

:shame:

We knew for some time it was going to happen. A lot of people want to hit him. Hard.

Sarathos is over it anyway.

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Originally Posted by pevergreen

We knew for some time it was going to happen. A lot of people want to hit him. Hard.

Sarathos is over it anyway.

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I always thought these dramas that are associated with Aussies were just based on stereotypes from soaps like Neighbours, however with some of the stories I've heard from your circle of Orgah friends I'm begging to wonder if they have some foundations...

:drama2:

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Originally Posted by pevergreen

We knew for some time it was going to happen. A lot of people want to hit him. Hard.

Sarathos is over it anyway.

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Bah. Puppy love. Who cares?

And they're christians, they get all the drawbacks of a relationship but without the benefit(teh sex), so.... I feel rather sorry for them :smash:

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Originally Posted by pevergreen

They both decided to delete me as friends on facebook and they refuse to talk to me, not because they know this, but because they are now going out!

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So ... they don't know your interest was fake but then just dump you out of ... spite? Your connection to Sarathos?

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So according to their own beliefs, they are obviously soon to be married :laugh4:

("they" being the lady and the boy who converted her in the first place, who when questioned, said he had no intention of going out with her. We all knew it was a lie :grin2:)

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Man ... If I had still lived in Brisbane, I might have offered to "talk" to them.
But ya never know. He wanted her over to this ... ( can't exactly call it extreme form of Christianity ) to get the woman of his dreams. She might as well have been lured in to get the boy of her dreams.

Hang on a second... are you telling me i can use religion to pull ?!

Time to start brushing up on my bible studies!

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Bah. Puppy love. Who cares?

And they're christians, they get all the drawbacks of a relationship but without the benefit(teh sex), so.... I feel rather sorry for them :smash:

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Yes, we know you are a nhilist who hates God.

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Originally Posted by Sigurd

So ... they don't know your interest was fake but then just dump you out of ... spite? Your connection to Sarathos?


Man ... If I had still lived in Brisbane, I might have offered to "talk" to them.
But ya never know. He wanted her over to this ... ( can't exactly call it extreme form of Christianity ) to get the woman of his dreams. She might as well have been lured in to get the boy of her dreams.

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This is something that deserves it's own topic really, faith and human relationships. Personally, I can't imagine how you can have an intimate relationship with someone who has a completely different world view to you, not to mention the potential salvation/damnation issue.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

This is something that deserves it's own topic really, faith and human relationships. Personally, I can't imagine how you can have an intimate relationship with someone who has a completely different world view to you, not to mention the potential salvation/damnation issue.

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Unless you believe that marriage continues after death, I can't see this as a problem. Faith is an individual thing and I believe so are salvation.
Besides... if it is predestined ...

Well there is the whole thing about not going into a relationship which will be 'unequally yoked'.

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Originally Posted by Sigurd

Unless you believe that marriage continues after death, I can't see this as a problem. Faith is an individual thing and I believe so are salvation.
Besides... if it is predestined ...

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Well, I don't believe in predestination, as we have established, so that isn't a problem. To a certain extent your own faith is personnal but Christianity is a communal religion, not a private one, and beyond that I just find it difficult to understand how you can share your whole life with someone who has a completely different conception of reality.

My faith is an integral part of my life, it informs my very understanding of my own existance. For example:

Christmas: More than just an excuse to have the family over and have a big party, fun as that is. For me that's secondary to celebrating the fact that over two thousand years ago the world and the fabric of reality were fundamentally altered.

I can't imagine spending my life with someone who can't understand that feeling.

If I was married, I'd be more concerned about where my wife was going after she died than what we agreed upon in life. Yes, we are told that God wipes away all tears in Heaven, however to say that you wouldn't care about her after you die doesn't seem right. For that reason, I could only marry a Christian I expect. Sounds bigoted I know, but it's not really.

According to my beliefs, Christmas means less to me than anyone else. It's a pagan festival, there's no religious element to it, Jesus wasn't born on what we call Christmas day. And to counter the argument about praising his birth regardless, why should we ritualise a celebration of Christ's birth into set festivals? We shouldn't, God hates ritualisation and ceremony (He used it to teach the Jews, but now we should know better!).

Others around me may celebrate the commercial side and eat, drink, and be merry, but I'm to miserable to do that, the idea of rejoicing in iniquity comes to mind. Yeah, you've got turkey, pudding, wine, excessive food, and lots of stuff that could have been more usefully invested in charity, maybe even an idolatrous depiction of a nativity scene - but where's God?!

So, I expect Santa just skipped the naughty list and put me straight onto the hit list, but that's what I think of Christmas.

EDIT: After reading my above post I expect I'll be getting a visit from the Ghost of Christmas Past...

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Others around me may celebrate the commercial side and eat, drink, and be merry, but I'm to miserable to do that, the idea of rejoicing in iniquity comes to mind. Yeah, you've got turkey, pudding, wine, excessive food, and lots of stuff that could have been more usefully invested in charity, maybe even an idolatrous depiction of a nativity scene - but where's God?!

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People put more money and time into charity around Christmas than any other time of the year. Its one of the few times that I actually donate to a charity (I'm a poor student so I can't actually afford it...). So claiming that no good comes out of it is completely false.

Also the only time I have ever gone to church (When I was younger and still a Christian...) was on Christmas day. So again, to claim that there is no God in many people's Christmas is completely false.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

People put more money and time into charity around Christmas than any other time of the year. Its one of the few times that I actually donate to a charity (I'm a poor student so I can't actually afford it...). So claiming that no good comes out of it is completely false.

Also the only time I have ever gone to church (When I was younger and still a Christian...) was on Christmas day. So again, to claim that there is no God in many people's Christmas is completely false.

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Of course some good comes from it, my point is that the Christians who have been longer in the faith have no reason to take it seriously.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

If I was married, I'd be more concerned about where my wife was going after she died than what we agreed upon in life. Yes, we are told that God wipes away all tears in Heaven, however to say that you wouldn't care about her after you die doesn't seem right. For that reason, I could only marry a Christian I expect. Sounds bigoted I know, but it's not really.

According to my beliefs, Christmas means less to me than anyone else. It's a pagan festival, there's no religious element to it, Jesus wasn't born on what we call Christmas day. And to counter the argument about praising his birth regardless, why should we ritualise a celebration of Christ's birth into set festivals? We shouldn't, God hates ritualisation and ceremony (He used it to teach the Jews, but now we should know better!).

Others around me may celebrate the commercial side and eat, drink, and be merry, but I'm to miserable to do that, the idea of rejoicing in iniquity comes to mind. Yeah, you've got turkey, pudding, wine, excessive food, and lots of stuff that could have been more usefully invested in charity, maybe even an idolatrous depiction of a nativity scene - but where's God?!

So, I expect Santa just skipped the naughty list and put me straight onto the hit list, but that's what I think of Christmas.

EDIT: After reading my above post I expect I'll be getting a visit from the Ghost of Christmas Past...

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That's a very Puritanical view, and it ignores the communal element of liturgy, because that's the point of a Church. It's a community of believers who share their faith. That is why Christmas and Easter are important.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

That's a very Puritanical view, and it ignores the communal element of liturgy, because that's the point of a Church. It's a community of believers who share their faith. That is why Christmas and Easter are important.

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But why bring Christians together to celebrate something in an un-Christian manner? It's self-defeating.

How is prayer and hym un-Christian?

Rhyfelwyr, if your belief system is making you miserable, there's every reason for re-considering it. Life is a precious, joyful thing - the greatest gift, if you believe in a god - and contains enough misery threaded through the happiness without needing the creation of more.

To quote again:

"If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."

:bow:

Nah, it's not the religion, my parents have been telling me I'm like Victor Meldrew since I was 8.

I don't mean that I feel miserable, just that I might appear a miserable character. I just don't understand how people can get so involved in festivities and feel OK about it. It's hard to explain, often I can't really explain it properly. Like a week or so ago my parents came back from a dance thing and had their party hats etc on and were quite 'cheerful' etc, and I was absolutedly shocked. And then later I wondered what I was so shocked about, and I didn't really know, because they hadn't done anything wrong in particular. The whole scene just seemed so... wordly?

@PVC: It's the mass repetition of certain hyms and prayers that I don't like about these ceremonies. It would be much better if people could pray sincerely with whatever God puts in their hearts than muttering some manufactured words and calling it a prayer. It's something I've noticed at church, repeating the words for a prayer never feels as genuine. Even if you are going to pray for the same thing, you are better doing it in your own way.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Rhyfelwyr, if your belief system is making you miserable, there's every reason for re-considering it. Life is a precious, joyful thing - the greatest gift, if you believe in a god - and contains enough misery threaded through the happiness without needing the creation of more.

To quote again:

"If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."

:bow:

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:yes: Listen to the more worldly man, he's right.

Asfar as prayers and liturgy go, as I said, its about a communal act. There's nothing quite like having 250 people saying the "Our Father" in rhythm, and you being one of them.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Nah, it's not the religion, my parents have been telling me I'm like Victor Meldrew since I was 8.

I don't mean that I feel miserable, just that I might appear a miserable character. I just don't understand how people can get so involved in festivities and feel OK about it. It's hard to explain, often I can't really explain it properly. Like a week or so ago my parents came back from a dance thing and had their party hats etc on and were quite 'cheerful' etc, and I was absolutedly shocked. And then later I wondered what I was so shocked about, and I didn't really know, because they hadn't done anything wrong in particular. The whole scene just seemed so... wordly?

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To me it seems like you take things too seriosly. If your constantly looking for the "meaning" and "worth" of things your never have any fun.

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Originally Posted by holybandit

To me it seems like you take things too seriosly. If your constantly looking for the "meaning" and "worth" of things your never have any fun.

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If you are a Christian, how can you take your salvation too seriously!? It's all that matters, all else, as they say, is vanity.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

If you are a Christian, how can you take your salvation too seriously!? It's all that matters, all else, as they say, is vanity.

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Will God really look at small day to day matters instead of the overall life and character of a man? There's nothing wrong if your not working 24/7. No ones that perfect.

Surely the most important thing in life is enjoying life not constantly looking for salvation?

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

If you are a Christian, how can you take your salvation too seriously!? It's all that matters, all else, as they say, is vanity.

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So you must torture yourself to prove yourself to your deity? Keep in mind that what you are doing to yourself is like some college frat hazing.

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Originally Posted by holybandit

So you must torture yourself to prove yourself to your deity? Keep in mind that what you are doing to yourself is like some college frat hazing.

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I didn't really understand the last half of that sentence, however I will say that Christians don't try to live a righteous life to get close to God, it comes as a natural progression from knowing God. Once you repent, you grow to hate iniquity bit by bit, one step at a time. We aren't doing it to torture ourselves because we think it will please God - that would be achieving salvation through works! God doesn't care in the least for anything we do, we can't do good by ourselves, but by the goodness that He works within us.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

If you are a Christian, how can you take your salvation too seriously!? It's all that matters, all else, as they say, is vanity.

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If you follow God for the purposes of salvation then that is vanity.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

I didn't really understand the last half of that sentence, however I will say that Christians don't try to live a righteous life to get close to God, it comes as a natural progression from knowing God. Once you repent, you grow to hate iniquity bit by bit, one step at a time. We aren't doing it to torture ourselves because we think it will please God - that would be achieving salvation through works! God doesn't care in the least for anything we do, we can't do good by ourselves, but by the goodness that He works within us.

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Say not the Catholics. In any case, some of the most moral and sensetive people I have known have been atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, and Jews. How can you do a single good deed with a heavy heart? Grudging charity is not charity at all. Life should be fun, I don't believe for a second that God wants us to be miserable, that path only leads to hating life.

The Bible teaches that life is the greatest of all God's gifts.

I did two things yesterday, I went to Church on my own and I had dinner with my family. I enjoyed both, I smiled I laughed, I had FUN. I think you over intellectualise your faith and you reject the emotional aspect of it. I'm not the sort of christian who sings happy clappy songs, sways side to side, and then collapses in an ecstatic fit on the floor but even I think your faith should be something you enjoy.

I'm not saying it's not hard for me sometimes, more often than I would like in fact, but at no time have I ever felt that God has wanted me to be miserable.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

If you follow God for the purposes of salvation then that is vanity.

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Nothing makes me happier than knowing that if I do something I do it for God's glory. I won't lie though, I am God-fearing. I know if I abandon Him then He'll force me back on track. It's just a case of going through the stages. At first you have the 'fire', then it seems a struggle as you try to do the hard part and live as God wants you to. However, God gradually builds us up in a way that is more pleasing to Him, so we rejoice in serving Him.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Say not the Catholics. In any case, some of the most moral and sensetive people I have known have been atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, and Jews. How can you do a single good deed with a heavy heart? Grudging charity is not charity at all. Life should be fun, I don't believe for a second that God wants us to be miserable, that path only leads to hating life.

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Who could say that changing your life to avoid sin is easy? It's not easy, and it's not supposed to be easy. I know it's a matter of doctrine, but I believe that God will make us persevere to the end. Step by step God will work to change us so that we hate sin, and so we can gladly serve Him. Although our righteousness can never be more than rags, I'm delighted to know I serve God if I think I do something 'good', however sometimes it's difficult. Indeed, it often seems impossible to be selfless. For example, I let my litttle brother on my PC today to play RTW for a few hours. He wanted to play it more, but I didn't let him, even though I'd played it for longer than him. I know this wasn't showing a good example of the righteous life, but I did it anyway because I wanted to get on with my Seleucid campaign. Gah, there's really no excuse I know. :shame:

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

The Bible teaches that life is the greatest of all God's gifts.

I did two things yesterday, I went to Church on my own and I had dinner with my family. I enjoyed both, I smiled I laughed, I had FUN. I think you over intellectualise your faith and you reject the emotional aspect of it. I'm not the sort of christian who sings happy clappy songs, sways side to side, and then collapses in an ecstatic fit on the floor but even I think your faith should be something you enjoy.

I'm not saying it's not hard for me sometimes, more often than I would like in fact, but at no time have I ever felt that God has wanted me to be miserable.

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The emotional aspect is what it's all about. The emotional aspect comes through reading the Bible, praying, and building a relationship with God, not by taking joy is wordly things. Eternal life is the greatest of God's gifts, this life is just a test.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Nothing makes me happier than knowing that if I do something I do it for God's glory. I won't lie though, I am God-fearing. I know if I abandon Him then He'll force me back on track. It's just a case of going through the stages. At first you have the 'fire', then it seems a struggle as you try to do the hard part and live as God wants you to. However, God gradually builds us up in a way that is more pleasing to Him, so we rejoice in serving Him.



Who could say that changing your life to avoid sin is easy? It's not easy, and it's not supposed to be easy. I know it's a matter of doctrine, but I believe that God will make us persevere to the end. Step by step God will work to change us so that we hate sin, and so we can gladly serve Him. Although our righteousness can never be more than rags, I'm delighted to know I serve God if I think I do something 'good', however sometimes it's difficult. Indeed, it often seems impossible to be selfless. For example, I let my litttle brother on my PC today to play RTW for a few hours. He wanted to play it more, but I didn't let him, even though I'd played it for longer than him. I know this wasn't showing a good example of the righteous life, but I did it anyway because I wanted to get on with my Seleucid campaign. Gah, there's really no excuse I know. :shame:



The emotional aspect is what it's all about. The emotional aspect comes through reading the Bible, praying, and building a relationship with God, not by taking joy is wordly things. Eternal life is the greatest of God's gifts, this life is just a test.

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But why does God need the test to know? Thats a pretty bleak view of life.

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Originally Posted by Lord Winter

But why does God need the test to know? Thats a pretty bleak view of life.

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It's not bleak on the whole. Yes, it reduces the importance of this life, but compared to an atheist who thinks you become worm food when you die, it's really a pretty good message to spread.

Well I suppose your body will still become worm food, but you know what I mean.

Perhaps calling life a test was a bad choice of words, because God already knows the results, and we would all fail if it wasn't for His intervention. It's only because of the original sin we need to go through this, and its purely out of mercy that God gives eternal life. There's nothing bleak about that.

Matthew Parris certainly seems to believe that christianity is the only salvation africa has, and he is athiest:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...S&attr=2270657

In a related matter to the OP - someone came into the store work at yesterday and tried to preach to me. Who goes into a Department Store and tries to convert the staff? The only reason that I didn't go off at him was because he seemed like a genuinely nice guy.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

In a related matter to the OP - someone came into the store work at yesterday and tried to preach to me. Who goes into a Department Store and tries to convert the staff? The only reason that I didn't go off at him was because he seemed like a genuinely nice guy.

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Someone who is worried for you. Just say thanks but no thanks.

I am trying to be a Christian. In the sense that I have a relationship with God, and I believe in Jesus.

But I struggle pretty badly with a lot of the stuff Pevergreen mentioned. Its such a dilemna - to know whether to have sex or not. I have concluded that if I want to get married to my current gf, I should not until then. I always struggle with it though - I have passed so many opportunities. I wonder if I should have taken them, or start taking them.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

Matthew Parris certainly seems to believe that christianity is the only salvation africa has, and he is athiest:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...S&attr=2270657

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I read that, interesting piece. The most interesting part though is that he doesn't even try to suggest an alternative.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Someone who is worried for you. Just say thanks but no thanks.

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Bingo, someone who also lacks subtley

Rhyfelwyr, you seem absolutely agonised and miserable about every part of your life and your relationship with God. I don't know what to suggest to you, but if your life is so dissatisfying maybe you should consider a monastary.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Rhyfelwyr, you seem absolutely agonised and miserable about every part of your life and your relationship with God. I don't know what to suggest to you, but if your life is so dissatisfying maybe you should consider a monastary.

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That would be the worst choice. Withdrawing from the world without equanimity of soul and tranquility of faith begets utter disaster.

No, the solution for the religious angst of youth is time-honoured: he needs to get laid.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

That would be the worst choice. Withdrawing from the world without equanimity of soul and tranquility of faith begets utter disaster.

No, the solution for the religious angst of youth is time-honoured: he needs to get laid.

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Maybe, but he's not going to take that advice. There's an ecumunical monastic community in France at a place called Taize. They're apparently very relaxed and down to Earth, a lot of young people go there to stay for short periods to help them sort themselves out.

To clear this up, I'm not agonised and miserable, and I can assure you if I was it wouldn't be for knowing God.

Maybe my attitude towards some things in this life make me appear that way, but I've got other things on my mind to cheer me up. Calvinists tend to be stereotyped as dull and miserable, but if you study their characters you realise they are anything but that. It's more down to a misunderstanding than a reality.

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It's not bleak on the whole. Yes, it reduces the importance of this life, but compared to an atheist who thinks you become worm food when you die, it's really a pretty good message to spread.

Well I suppose your body will still become worm food, but you know what I mean.

Perhaps calling life a test was a bad choice of words, because God already knows the results, and we would all fail if it wasn't for His intervention. It's only because of the original sin we need to go through this, and its purely out of mercy that God gives eternal life. There's nothing bleak about that.

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I just can't belive that God only uses this life to sort out humanity. Like you say he has other ways. Instead I belive that theres a purpose in an earthly life and it should be a time of growth and joy instead of penence and sorrow.

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Originally Posted by Lord Winter

I just can't belive that God only uses this life to sort out humanity. Like you say he has other ways. Instead I belive that theres a purpose in an earthly life and it should be a time of growth and joy instead of penence and sorrow.

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I agree it's useful for growth and joy. But we are born sinners, you have to be transformed by God for any useful growth to happen. In any case, you've got to admit that penence and sorrow have their roles. If we were perfect, we wouldn't feel them, but being born sinners it's always going to be a struggle.

They have a role, but everything in moderation.

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Originally Posted by Lorenzo_H

I am trying to be a Christian. In the sense that I have a relationship with God, and I believe in Jesus.

But I struggle pretty badly with a lot of the stuff Pevergreen mentioned. Its such a dilemna - to know whether to have sex or not. I have concluded that if I want to get married to my current gf, I should not until then. I always struggle with it though - I have passed so many opportunities. I wonder if I should have taken them, or start taking them.

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Take it, if you decide not to be a christrian your constantly regret it.

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didn't really understand the last half of that sentence, however I will say that Christians don't try to live a righteous life to get close to God, it comes as a natural progression from knowing God. Once you repent, you grow to hate iniquity bit by bit, one step at a time. We aren't doing it to torture ourselves because we think it will please God - that would be achieving salvation through works! God doesn't care in the least for anything we do, we can't do good by ourselves, but by the goodness that He works within us.

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I cant really debate this with you. Im a person who has been sourrounded by the religious and nonreligious. Both types of people have about the same amount of "goodness" in them. A belief in god does nothing for how nice, generous, humanitarian a person is. A religious person is just as likely to lie,steal,cheat and backstab you to get what he/she wants (even if he wants is for his deity), and most of the time able to justify it using their faith.

I feel that this is a little unfair. Yes, in my experience many religious people are just as likely to fall short of some moral standards. But there are cases where faith in a God leads people to be more moral than they would otherwise be.

I certainly wouldn't say that in general religious people justify their indiscretions in the name of faith.

@ Lord Winter/Rhyfelwyr: To actively follow the moral code that Christianity is does involve some sort of sacrifice. For example there are clearly rules to follow. But I have to be more in sympathy with Lord Winter in that spiritual growth must be a major part of our existence. Of course penance and sorrow will have roles within that, but they shouldn't all encompassing. Just as there can be no corage without fear, there can be no joy without sorrow. Balance is key.

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Originally Posted by Gaius Scribonius Curio

I feel that this is a little unfair. Yes, in my experience many religious people are just as likely to fall short of some moral standards. But there are cases where faith in a God leads people to be more moral than they would otherwise be.

I certainly wouldn't say that in general religious people justify their indiscretions in the name of faith.

@ Lord Winter/Rhyfelwyr: To actively follow the moral code that Christianity is does involve some sort of sacrifice. For example there are clearly rules to follow. But I have to be more in sympathy with Lord Winter in that spiritual growth must be a major part of our existence. Of course penance and sorrow will have roles within that, but they shouldn't all encompassing. Just as there can be no corage without fear, there can be no joy without sorrow. Balance is key.

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Never seen a case in my life of that happening. But if it does happen, the person isnt moral, he/she just following the rules.

And I was thinking of my brother when I said they can use their faith as a excuse. Hes a youth leader, and he certainly will lie and steal if it will somehow bring more youth into Christianity.

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I agree it's useful for growth and joy. But we are born sinners, you have to be transformed by God for any useful growth to happen. In any case, you've got to admit that penence and sorrow have their roles. If we were perfect, we wouldn't feel them, but being born sinners it's always going to be a struggle.

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Useful to whom?

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Originally Posted by Mooks

Never seen a case in my life of that happening. But if it does happen, the person isnt moral, he/she just following the rules.

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What's important is whether or not they live a righteous life gladly. One message conveyed throughout the Bible is the need for rules to guide people who may be less experienced in the faith. It's all about God transforming you, at first you may struggle to follow the rules, but if you persevere then you will come to live a righteous life without having to check you are following the rules.

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Originally Posted by Mooks

Never seen a case in my life of that happening. But if it does happen, the person isnt moral, he/she just following the rules.

And I was thinking of my brother when I said they can use their faith as a excuse. Hes a youth leader, and he certainly will lie and steal if it will somehow bring more youth into Christianity.

Useful to whom?

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Your brother clearly has not read his Bible, Jesus has a name for such a one, Hypocrite, and he pretty much damns them. They live for outward praise, and so recieve nothing inwardly because they do not give inwardly.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

What's important is whether or not they live a righteous life gladly. One message conveyed throughout the Bible is the need for rules to guide people who may be less experienced in the faith. It's all about God transforming you, at first you may struggle to follow the rules, but if you persevere then you will come to live a righteous life without having to check you are following the rules.

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So if you follow the doctrine long enough it will eventually become 2nd nature? Makes sense.

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Your brother clearly has not read his Bible, Jesus has a name for such a one, Hypocrite, and he pretty much damns them. They live for outward praise, and so recieve nothing inwardly because they do not give inwardly.

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I look foward to seeing the majority of the clergy in hell when I arrive there. :smash: .

Also this is why Pascal's Wager doesnt work. Never seen the common rebuttal (your quoted post) from a theist though.

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Originally Posted by Mooks

Never seen a case in my life of that happening. But if it does happen, the person isnt moral, he/she just following the rules.

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You've not seen a born-again Christian with a shady past living a a good and moral life? Even if they are just following the rules, their faith in God has guided to follow these moral guidlines, making them more moral than they would otherwise be.

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Originally Posted by Mooks

And I was thinking of my brother when I said they can use their faith as a excuse. Hes a youth leader, and he certainly will lie and steal if it will somehow bring more youth into Christianity.

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To damn all religious people on the basis of one person, even if you know him well seems to be a little hasty.

We are all of us hypocrites, at some point in our lives, meaning to be so or not.

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Originally Posted by Mooks

So if you follow the doctrine long enough it will eventually become 2nd nature? Makes sense.

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Living your life by the rules is hardly enough to be an effective witness to others, Jesus himself said he was filling in the gaps left by the 'rules'. You can't honestly look at Jesus and say that he was simply following rules which he had ingrained into his head.