Not anymore disturbing, than you proposing a solution which would put a guy favourable to Munster and Connaught in Mide...
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Not anymore disturbing, than you proposing a solution which would put a guy favourable to Munster and Connaught in Mide...
This being the reason that our Duke proposed this solution here, openly, before all of the Dukes, seeking their consensus instead of privately trying to settle this affair with the Duke of Munster.
I don't follow. Either way you look at it, If Leinster and Ulster agreed to your proposed solution, we'd still have weakened ourselves, and strengthened you.
I don't agree but the matter is not in the content of the proposed solution itself, the problem lies solely in the way that at least the Duke of Leinster seems to be thinking he can decide the matter solely with the Duke of Ulster without consulting the other Dukes of Ireland.
If the Duke of Connaught won't, as he puts it, 'go into biggering with a Leinster vassal' - which is entirely reasonable - then I, a mere Munster vassal shall do it instead. Yes, in this particular case, Connacht and Munster did indeed speak with one mouth. What else is to be expected when your Duke, giving an emperor's clothes pretence at seeking a peaceful resolution, tries to make a secret deal with Ulster so he can take the cake all for himself, whilst treating the Dukes of Connaught and Munster as irrelevant chumps?
Your Duke's words are belligerent and their realization in action could only work to feed the fires of war.
Your talents are of more use in a joust that in the art of diplomacy, I fear. I have never intended to belittle any Duke of the land, I merely responded to the Duke of Ulster - and the Bishop - since they were the ones who initially brought up the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Celtic Viking
I am very much in favor of settling this peacefully, and I would hear your Duke's suggestion as to how this be done if he has one to speak. But unless I am swayed by some argument not without weight, I intend to wed the young Lady of Mide. Surely, none can then deny my right to the County?
Diamondeye,
Duke of Leinster.
Our duke has made his mind quite clear, since all land belongs to god, the bishop should settle this. And since the bishop is appareantly part of Ulster, Ulster is the one you want to negotiate with in regards to this issue.
Now, we could try and settle it outside, but that would be an offence to the good Bishop, and hence, to god. If this is to be solved peacefully, we have to recognize the Bishops ruling, as anything else will end in war.
What you're basically asking is, that we should get your consent, to screw you over, which is not gonna happen either way, just like your Dukes outrageous proposal, would never have been accepted either.
There's one last option, which is for everyone to back off, and let Mide be with a local noble, but I doubt that's gonna happen either.
Duke of Connaught stands up looking at the previous speaker,
"If Bishop is part of Ulster.He is no Bishop at all. Church is above Duke´s and even you proposing that Bishop is mere vassal of Ulster is insulting to both the Bishop, Holy Church and Ulster."
Duke of Connaught
Ofcourse the Bishop is not a vassal of Ulster, but the land on which he's Cathedral was/is build, is part of Ulsters domain, which naturally means he'll be based in that Duchy.
Besides, you're not really one to talk about insulting his holiness, having offered him nothing, neither gold nor land. I Think my.. unfortunate choice of words can be overlooked compared to that.
Apparently you believe that by paying for His Holiness and offering him land you, the Duchy of Ulster, have aquired the possibility to decide for him, if he has something to decide. How pieous of you...
Edit: Nevermind The Last Days already gave better answer then i could have.
I'm not the Duchy of Ulster, but since his Holiness and the Duke of Ulster's opinion on the matter seemed to overlap, it would only be natural to make an offer to the good duke, who could then bring it to *his holinessQuote:
Originally Posted by TheLastDays
In either case, my Duke has tried to include his holiness, whilst your duke has only tried to exclude him, I fail to see how we are the bad guys here.
EDIT: It might be in the interest of all, if his holiness was to receive Mide, and Ulster gain full control of the province which his holiness build his cathedral on, as I highly doubt anyone else getting Mide, would satisfy the rest..
Again A Dane.Dont speculate on affairs you know little about. You dont have any idea what i have offered or proposed to the Bishop.
The Duke of Connaught should remember his place- alongside the rest of us, in subservience to the Lord. It would be most irresponsible of a Duke to allow his subjects to be excommunicated because of his own impertinence. Now, sir, if you feel you have another proposal to add to mine or Duke Diamondeye's, let us hear it, here in the open.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
In the meantime, should an agreement between the Dukes and the Church not arise soon, I suggest that each Duke agree to a pact of protection for the Duchy of Mide. In the event that a duke should attempt to seize the county by force, the pact shall state that the rest of us shall come to its aid. I, naturally, shall sign this county first, but reserve the right of nullification should all the rest of the Dukes determine it unnecessary. Should even one other Duke agree, I shall be bound by oath to protect the Duchy of Mide from aggressors.
To Duke of Ulster,
It is not i who called the Bishop part of your domain.So dont threaten me. In matter of fact i asked for the guidance of the Bishop in this affair and also even proposed that Mide would be given to the Church, but the Bishop did not even answer my letters. My Chancellor has also tried to contact for example Leinster in private in vain. No decent reply of any kind have been give n by them. Same applies with Ulster.
In this light i cant but laugh at your latest proposal.You together with Leinster have made an agreement over the fate of Mide in private and now you want us and Munster to protect your agreement, while we have been left out even from negotiations. While one of you forces marriage to the poor daughter of Mide.I am sorry but do you take us a fool?
In this scheming atmosphere provided by Ulster and Leinster. I Duke of Connaught will offer my hand in marriage to daughter of Mide and promise to protect her lands from anyone trying to take them with force. I am man of peace, but such exploitation Ulster and Leinster are planning cant be tolerated. Thus i am going to protect my dead neighbours integrity by marrying his daughter. Let the Mide daughter decide whom to marry. Is that enough for you gentlemen?
You offered neither gold nor land to the good bishop in the first place, atleast not in public, and nothing was announced at the fair, so it's perfectly reasonable to conclude you've offered nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
In regards to your latest responses, now you've suddenly proposed to give the good bishop the land in private? Very noble in theory, but since you've not said so in public, it sounds highly suspecious...
The bishop is a wise and honorable man, he should be able to clear up any misgivings.
I think we should defer to his Holiness's judgement on this matter.
You presume quite a lot, Duke of Connaught. First, the Bishop is not of my domain. I collect no taxes from the land, and the soldiers I cannot conscript. Further, myself and Duke Diamondeye have made no secret agreements behind closed doors. All that has been discussed has been in the public forum for all. My proposal to protect Mide from aggressors was just that- in the event we and the Church could not agree to a timely conclusion to this matter. Thus, we could prevent an unnecessary violent resolution to the matter. But if you wish to see it through the lens of conspiracy, I suppose that is your right, even if misguided. However, I fail to see how your offer to the Duke's daughter is, frankly, in any way different than from Duke Diamondeye's. You both have offered your hand to the young lady, even though she lacks any right of inheritance. Does that not make you equally scheming?
Yes i did not give Bishop gold for the construction of Church, but you dont know anything i have done after that. Ask the Bishop if you dont believe me. If you go back and read what i have said, you should start to understand that i have tried to find a solution to this situation both in Public and private but the reluctant behaviour, which is the main thing i have accused of Leinster and Ulster has cancelled all my efforts. This is exactly what i have been saying all along.Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Dane
And to the Duke of Ulster.I already told you it was not i who said the Bishop is part of your domain, but the very Leinster Vassal to whom i have been trying to clarify the situation over and over again.
You say I insult the holy father, but claim you havn't.. oh well nvm, not the issue.
The Issue is, that the so-called "proposals" you've come with in public, would only strengthen yourself or Munster, while the ones you've discussed in private, would on paper be the most reasonable ones, however, you've never uttered a word about it, until after I proposed rearranging Mides lands, which I must say speak against you, considering you've done nothing, until very recently, but claim we were scheming.
EDIT: Anyways, in the interest of the peace, we should let this issue be. There's no way to settle this in a satisfactory way, without either Ulster getting it (hence getting back to 3 provinces), or his holiness swapping mide for the previously given county. Anything else would strengthen one dukedom over the others, which none will be able to agree to, and since I'm sure no one wants a war now, his holiness might be persuaded to swap counties, provided all the dukes can agree?
Duke of Connaught glances for a long time towards the Leinster vassal, breaths slowly and says:
"It was days a go when i proposed things to the Bishop, not after your muttering today. My first proposal was to create a independent Duchy for Mide, which was impossible to achive. Second i tried to find council from Church, while my letters were not even answered after repeated pleas to the Bishop. After that i tried to open private negotiations with the forementioned Duke´s, to no avail. Why this was the case? Because these Lords with their all wits decided to leave me and Munster out from the decision making. Last now that all my efforts have gone in vain. I am tired of negotiating, so i will do what i can to protect the integrity of my neighbour, from the scheming of forementioned Dukes. Nothing more, nothing less."
After a pause.Duke continues.
"And one last thing.The Holy father you mention, is the Pope. Just so you know."
So, if anyone touches Mide, it's war?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
Your insolence knows no boundaries, and neither does your apparant arrogance, I'm sure you'll roast in hell, good sir.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
Count A_Dane you should learn to control your temper and your tongue before I cut it from your mouth for insulting my liege.
Your liege should seek counciling on proper conduct.
I can wholeheartedly second this, making empty threats is unchristian, wait till the pope heas about this!Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Dane
Duke of Connaught has hard time trying to control himself from not bursting into a laughter:
"So now i am to blame for our Leinster vassal first mistaking our Bishop from Ulster Vassal and after that mistaking our Bishop from the Pope, who is The Holy Father. I am sorry but i have to take a small break from these negotiations if you will gentlemen."
EDIT: This sounded ruder than it should have, Sorry for that Kage.
Actually, after talking to Kage, I realise this was my bad temper talking, I'll stick through with this, as it would be bad manners otherwise. (though I think my former shrink might consider this a bad decision).
Sorry for any inconvenience I have caused, I shall try to restrain my self in the future.
So, Skullhead, you have the heart of a whore, do you? Most men would not have the gall to admit that and then call another man's words unchristian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq
No problems. This is just a game and we are all playing characters.:bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Dane
Yeah ofcourse, but I failed big time there.. Geeze.. thought i was past such things s:
EDIT: Anyways, offtopic chat aside, I stand by my earlier proposal of HIS HOLINESS, THE GOOD BISHOP, E.G. NOT THE POPE HIMSELF, getting Mide, but giving his earlier aquired province back to Ulster, so we can keep the fragile balance.
This made me ROFL. Sorry for the typo ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by autolycus
Didn't even notice it :p although that was the most amusing typo (besides my own mingling of holiness and holy father ofcourse), I've seen in a while :)
To the Duke of Connaught:
You should substantiate your claim of private contacts. Until you do, you are barking. I have received no missives from your duchy. Now, again, by what right do you demand the lands of Mide? You have done nothing but attempt to mislead other lords and vassals while attempting to increase your domain. You have served as no proper example to your subjects, and thus, you do not deserve support for your claim.
No, this is the proper map:
https://img844.imageshack.us/img844/8364/ckireland.jpg
It is outrageous to bring something like this before us. By what right does the Duchy of Leinster claim Mide? If there is no right for the Dukes of this island than it certainly can't just fall into your hands or do you need a place to be declared as count?
johnhughthom, when you do the next update, can you mark the chancellors in the opening post, so that we don't have to keep tracking down that post when figuring out who to contact in the other duchies.
If you would listen to the words I have spoken, I do not intend to claim Mide in any other way than by the path of marriage. All this talk and these threats of war are as stupid as they are barbaric. I would ask my retainers to rein themselves in before they insult any of my fellow dukes. I apologize sincerely if this has already been done, Duke Kagemusha. It seems that like the tourney winner, my marshall too thinks more than is well of war and jousts and not of the purpose that God had created us with; to exist in his image.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastDays
Duke Diamondeye, what I said was not said to attack you but to adress one of your vassals who seems to think that the fate of Mide has already been decided.
It seems a few Duchys haven't quite decided to proceed, I'll extend the phase 24 hours to give more time.
Thank you for the extension honorable God, for I, your faithful bishop, had been busy as of late ((RL busy)).
As I mentioned. No Duke has a direct claim to the lands of Mide. As also mentioned the fief is under the nominal authority of the Pope, and by delegation, of me. As I also mention, the best way to settle this dispute cordially is to verify who is the most pious of all Dukes, and in return for his devotion to the God and to the Holy Father, I may relinquish the lands of Mide in the name of the Pope and entrust it to the care of one Duke.
Your Grace,
Have you considered a possibility of Mide becoming a Church County? I know that in mainland the Church is holding large estates in order to gain wealth for all the God´s good work it is doing helping the poor, sickly and less fortuned ones?
Duke of Connaught
We had slightly considered that possibility, your lordship Duke of Connaught, but we never gave it much thought. For the lands of Mide are as much the lands of God as they are of the folks of the island. As such, if that is the consensus of the Dukes that the lands of Mide should come to be ruled directly by the Holy Church in the name of the Pope, then we will look with brim and joy to see that the rulers of this fair island are indeed caring to see a strong and just Church that evenly settles the disputes of the island and looks after its people, the lambs of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
I will excuse myself from making any early remarks or give my support towards such a possibility without the approval of the faithful Dukes of Ireland, as I am only here as a mediator and not as a claimant for the lands.
While it is an honourable thought to put Mide under the inspired leadership of the Church, I fear it may have several risks involved. First of all, while I understand and agree the need of a County dedicated to the Holy Father, extending his dominion on this earth would perhaps make those weak in their faith think that ruling on Earth is better than ruling the Heavens above. And I am sadly of the impression after the already heated debate that it would also cause some men of less devout spirit to look to his lands with greed and envy in their eyes. It is known that a good Christian leads not his fellow man into sin willfullly.
We hope to solve this in the way already put forth, but if it come to that, it is of course better for God to rule Mide in peace than man to rule it war.
I have all the faith in God´s representative in these lands to Govern land just as well as attend to the souls of sinners. I feel i have spoken so much as of late that i would like to listen now what the Duke´s of Ulster and Munster have to say concerning this proposal.
Duke of Connaught
Since I am partly to blame for the bad taste in everybodys mouth, and for talking out of my place, I offer Duke Kage my most sincerest apology, It was not my place to interfere.
Munster is recruiting!
It seems we have an inactive player and he sadly happened to be our Duke, so should anyone like to join this game, you might want to consider us, as you would have a shot at becoming Duke. :beam:
[Yeah, that's kinda bad roleplay isn't it ? :smug2:]
Personally I thought that Duke Kagemusha's idea, of granting Mide to the tournament winner, Lord TCV, was a respectable idea, given the circumstances. If one deserves a new land, it's this brave warrior, as he currently holds no title in Munster.
I will grant my support for the granting of Mide to the Church. The Lord and his delegates will surely a better caretaker of the flock than another Duke. Mide as a battlefield between contesting dukes would be a disaster that would befall many neighboring provinces. May the Church serve as a bastion of stability and support.
Cent pmed me to let me know he's beeon on holiday and will be back tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanic
I second this. Our Knight bested all put before him, and it is most unfortunate he is without proper holdings befitting of such a Lord. However, I would be overjoyed if these lands were to be trusted to our welcomed visitor who traveled so far, and so long, to bless our lands in these troubled times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanic
While TVC's achievements were indeed most aweinspireing, it must be his own liege's "duty" to grant him land..?
I personally support the idea of giving Mide to the church, it is probably the best for the inhabitants of the county as they would certainly be the ones to suffer, should war over their land break out. We will have to wait on the word of my Duke Kagemusha and the Dukes of Leinster and Munster of course.
I have already spoken on that topic, in great length no less. It is a better solution than openly competing to win the county, but if it could be settled peacefully between the Dukes, I would rather that. God's reign is in Heaven, and Man's is on earth, and I would not burden the Church unnecesarily with a piece of land that seems to bring more trouble and envy than blessings with it.
Excuse me, my liege, but the Donatio Constantini states that all of the West belongs to the pope and the bishop is above worldly rulers. And we wouldn't want problems with the church, now do we?Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamondeye
I don't think envy will be the problem. No man with any love of God, even less a nobleman would dare to openly ride to war against the church, therefore I think under the rulership of the church the people of Mide have the best hope for peace.
Duke of Connaught speaks:
"It warms my heart that we seem to be arriving into almost single minded decision over this matter. I thank you Munster vassals for noticing merit in my earlier suggestion of giving Mide to the strongest knight among us, but unfortunately like it was discussed two days a go. That cant be done. Still if it wont be the strongest martially of us to protect the Mide. Then so it should be the strongest in Lord.
Thus i will make it clear that Connaught will support adding Mide to the Church holdings and our Good Bishop should rule it as ecclestial County. In order to further help the Church. Connaught will give 30 gold from our funds, so a house of Lord can be erected at Mide.
I urge every Lord here to swear to protect Mide from anyone who might try to wrestle the County away from Church. Leinster. You said earlier that if your proposal will not gain support.You will support this one as second best. Now that others have supported for Mide to go the Church, will you do so also?"
*Gives a disapproving scowl*Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq
Someone needs to mind their tone.
Interesting, duke of what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skooma Addict
*Folds his arms, looks towards the ground and gives a light chuckle*
Gentlemen! The hour is late and still no answer from Leinster! Should we think that we cant reach an concensus in this issue or can we?
Leinster will be content with the rule of the Church in Mide if that is how things end up. I have exchanged letters with Cardinal Jolt and I am currently awaiting his reply which might clarify my and his position on this issue. Until then I cannot provide a more enlightening answer.
Thank you for your answer Duke of Leinster. It is enough for Connaught.
I've been asked about another extension, so I'll extend 36 hours, I'll not be able to do a write up tomorrow so it'll be Thursday. I'll accept orders until I officially end the phase.
:curtain:
(Sorry for being away. Am here now)
Phase over, there's quite a bit to get through for this phase so it may take a while.
1071
1071 in Ireland saw the four Duchies endlessly debate how to handle the problem of Mide, the independent County in a strategical important position in the centre of the island. The previous Count had died with no heir, despite much discussion only Leinster mad an official proclamation on how the County would be ruled, saying it should go to Bishop Jolt. Unfortunately with no army, Jolt was in position to move into the County. It seemed the problem of Mide would continue into 1072, bandits had already infested the County, it had previously been one of the most prosperous in Ireland, it was fast falling to lawlessness and banditry.
End of phase two
I'll do each Dukedom and individuals results and events over the next 24 hours, there's quite a bit to it, most will be in the QTs but a few people will get individual pms. Phase two will begin when it is all done.
Another tourney will be held next year, in Munster.
Chancellors:
Ulster: Ibn-Khaldun.
Connaught: autolycus.
Leinster: God Emperor.
Munster: Romanic.
It is disturbing that us , rulers of these lands cant make a decisions amongst ourselves. I admit that i am just as to blame as any man here, but can we please now make a decision over Mide. I propose that Mide will go to the Church and each Duke will send 300 men to take it for the Church, maybe Ulster shoudl send 200 because how much they have given to the Church as of late? Can we agree on this? If so. I propose for the tornament winner to lead them so we dont get into a fight who should lead the army.Would this be acceptable?
I was under the impression that giving the church two counties would make some priests more susceptible to the Devil's corruption?
Duke of Connaught buries his head inside his palms.
All QTs updated and pms sent. Phase 3 begins, tourney will be held in Munster, so Munster needs to decide how much to spend. Each Dukedom also needs to decide whether to help Duke to win, or fight fairly.
Two men arrive in Ireland, looking for employment. One is a armoursmith from Naples, the other a lance instructor from Seville. If anybody would like to employ them offer a salary with your orders, the highest bids will get their man.
Phase 3 begins, 48 hours for orders.
Hey, I didn't say it first.
Seems like this turn should be over right about now. Still waiting on decisions from certain dukes, JHT?
Few hours to go yet, I'm still waiting on concrete decisions from two Dukedoms.
I had hoped to get everything in tonight and get the write up done immediately but two Dukes haven't posted in their QTs and Centurion's replacement Duke hasn't quite been decided. Results normally take 24 hours, so I'll leave it open and accept orders for another 24 hours and do the writeup right away. So it's not really another extension... I'm guessing it's because of the weekend, might be an idea to have longer phases over the weekend in future.
I must state that i am very disappointed of the lack of effort of the other Duke´s to settle this issue publically. Connaught is very concerned that our neighbouring county has essentially fallen into anarchy and we cant accept that state of affairs to spread into our counties.
We have the impression that the Church will take Mide under their wings, including the problem of actually bringing in the County. We continue to support the Church through funding, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
It would be helpful if the Church were to actually say publically something. The problem is that my neighbouring county is at chaos and i cant have that spreading to my lands, so if no one else will help me.Im going to pacify Mide myself.
One hour for orders.
I wouldn't be so hasty on being so dismissive of his holiness. He does have the authority of the Pope on his side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
I will give you some information, I believe a Papal army will be entering the province in the name of the church. You might not want to send your forces in and get confused for the enemy. Though if you insist, I suggest making clear your intentions on handling the province to the church.