Not revolution yet, but both sides are laying bets on the answer to that classic question of legitimacy:
When they knock on your front door
How ya gonna come?
With yer hands on your head
Or on the trigger of your gun?
(the Clash: Guns of Brixton)
Printable View
Not revolution yet, but both sides are laying bets on the answer to that classic question of legitimacy:
When they knock on your front door
How ya gonna come?
With yer hands on your head
Or on the trigger of your gun?
(the Clash: Guns of Brixton)
The main difference visually is that the AK-74M has black polymer parts rather than wooden on the stock, grip, and fore arm. The weapons seen in the video are also equipped with what looks like the Picatinny rail system, which is a newer improvement for easier mounting of accessories and attachments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
today
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27017707
Well the Russian consuls did say they ain't stopping with Crimea. And with the rest of the world being so tip-toey, I can't say I blame them. Crimea was the demo version. It worked well enough. Now East Ukraine is the real deal, and that's where the money's at anyway.
What I am saying is that local radicals with military exlerience have been recruited by Russian intelligence (most likely the GRU) into these strike groups. They were trained, equipped and armed to carry out attacks.
Last weekend their commanders decided that time is riped and launched the campaign we are currently observing.
After taking these police stations, they quickly distribituded the looted guns to pro-Russian protestors, who then also build the Maidan-like barricades.
So unlike in Crimea, they are not necessarily Russian troops on Ukrainian soil, but at least those strike commandos were raised by Russia and receive their orders from there.
I wouldn't trust Russian consuls from Malawi and Zimbabwe to have insight into Kremlin politics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
Crimea was different. They already had 10000-20000 troops on the ground and more than just implicit support from the local population.
Eastern Ukraine is different. While they may be pro-Russian enough to demand greater autonomy from Kiev and closer ties with Russia, I doubt Russia could pull of what it did in Crimea, that is, taking control of the territory without firing a shot.
“the problem is they don't have a mandate to do any of this until the elections”: Well they did sign agreement with EU. So, they can do better than threatening to go to war against their own citizens. Calling them “terrorists” doesn’t help and resolves nothing.
It is a mess.
The Western Policy of containment as in the good time of the Cold War without any restrain is now showing the bill, and unfortunately Ukraine will pay the bill. Of course the Russian are sending specialists, I have no doubts, like the US were sending specialists to the Kosovars and the Croats (or how can you explain that in 2/3 years, under arms embargo, the Croats succeeded to have an army able to launch 2 major offensive combining all forces, equipped with material they were familiar with)?
Who want a war in Ukraine (I think 6 nuclear plants and one of them is Chernobyl)? Are you ready for the nuclear dust going freely in the atmosphere?
Time to think politic, and stop playing with Ukraine populations, start talking.
The west has been funding and organizing opposition for a long time and basically hijacked a popular protest that was about corruption and poverty and turned it to a anti-Russian/pro-western thingy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
It's about influence in Ukraine, let's not pretend it was ever about Ukrainians.
While I agree that Russia is more hands-on with their approach, the basic idea is the same.
You mean, the original protests were about control of the entire country, and the current are only about the eastern part?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
C'mon, you're intelligent enough to discern the truth from bull - just go and read news articles from January, February and March...
“What Russia is doing is actually fomenting revolution with men, arms, and command and control.” What Russia is doing is exploiting the Western weakness, as the west did exploit the Eltsine’s times to grab what it could. I went in Russia at these times, when the name of the prostitutes in Istanbul was Natasha and when Russia had to swallow adder after adder (not sure, translated from French).
The political mistake of Ukrainian Nazis opened the gates for pay-back, and until now, as for the West few years ago, no blood (from the aggressors, US/EU or Russian) is spilled. Do you notice that Russia use the same vocabulary than John Kerry or, before him, Madeleine Albright? Same pretexts for interventions, same manners and like years ago, same victims, the populations.
The fact is I don’t like what Putin is doing. I didn’t like it when we were doing it. I didn’t like NATO bombers dropping bombs on various countries, and NATO supporting some Ethnic Cleansing when pretending to stop others. And I don’t like shocks of Civilisations and others Bushism that become Putinism.
But it is highly hypocritical to blame Putin and to paint him as a dictator as he is doing exactly what we did, against international laws, against UN resolutions.
Eh, not Russia, Putin.
There is no Russia right now, just Putin's Empire.
Brenus is correct that the West is weak and unprepared, but that is because we have spent twenty years operating a policy of assimilation rather than containment - after the collapse of the Soviet Union the EU and NATO expanded eastwards not to CONTAIN Russia but TOWARD Russia - I remember the 90's, and the prevailing feeling then was that eventually we would make the Russians "like us" just as we have with the Czechs, Slovaks, and Poles, and as we are with Romania and Bulgaria. More to the point - these countries have actively sought inclusion in the Western Sphere, the aspire to closer integration, no provocateurs or manipulation was required.
Ukraine has been a somewhat different story, but there is a sharp difference between the EU offering moral and financial support to "pro-Western" (read: anti-corruption/reform) movements in Ukraine and actively arming Right Sector, isn't there?
Russia is not fomenting civil disobedience, or mass-protests. It is funding and equipping para-military units who are capturing arsenals and police stations.
This thread is starting to remind me of Baghdad Bob. Back in the 2003 campaign even after the American troops entered Baghdad, he kept on raving about "heroes of Umm Qasr" still holding the border. It seems that no matter what Putin does, to the local Bobs he's just a swell guy, no worse than the West and in some ways even better. Heck, let him take all of Ukraine, Umm Qasr will still stand.
I hear East Ukraine's about to be annexed...
I'm gonna go full Tribesman on this :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
When protesters in Kiev were attacking police stations and taking over government building they were peaceful protesters, who are to be given financial, organizational and moral support, plus political pressure would be applied to the government.
When the western part of the country declared "self-rule", they were still peaceful protesters. When they stormed and took control of police stations and other government building in Lviv they were still peaceful protesters. When they set Ministry of the Interior buidling on fire they were still peaceful protesters. When they've gone full medieval in Lutsk and tied regional governor in the central city square they were still peaceful protesters.
Everyone was going on about snipers until it became clear it wasn't Yanukovich who ordered it. After that, it was swept under the rug and no one talks about it anymore.
When Kerry and Fuelle (and scores of other western politicians) were talking about constitutional changes that Ukraine needs while Yanukovich was still in power, that was perfectly acceptable and normal. When Lavrov says the same things, it's meddling in internal affairs of Ukraine. It was also perfectly acceptable to send foreign ministers to put pressure on Ukraine to accept protesters' demands. Sanctions are also perfectly acceptable. None of it is meddling in internal affairs of a country.
Before anyone mentioned the army, western politicians preemptively warned against it, threatening sanctions and consequences for Ukraine and Yanukovich if that happens. When Maidan government actually threatens to use the army or sends police units to combat protesters in the east, everyone's silent.
While they were still opposition, they had the mandate to talk about constitutional changes. After they've seized power, they had the mandate to immediately pledge themselves to EU and NATO. They've had the mandate ban Russian language and to start procedures to ban Communist Party and the Party of Regions. They had the mandate to try to violently expel governors and regional administrations they didn't like. But, now they don't have the mandate to talk about constitutional changes. Anyone mentioning it is meddling in internal affairs.
It's ironic how they're getting a taste of their own medicine and how they're proving to be worse thugs than Yanukovich. They've gambled and they lost, but no one has to cojones to admit that, so they're plunging the country deeper into the chaos of civil war and inevitable bankruptcy.
“but there is a sharp difference between the EU offering moral and financial support to "pro-Western" (read: anti-corruption/reform) movements in Ukraine and actively arming Right Sector, isn't there?” Can you explain the “sharp” difference in carving others borders, toppling leaders and invading others in both cases? As much as I know, the actual leaderships in Bosnia and Kosovo are more related to mafia than democratic governance. And the “anti-corruption/reform” movement in Ukraine just put the corrupted from the previous administration in power.
The West just took from the Ukrainian movement its meaning, its reason. During the movement itself, there was no move from the Russian Parts as they were probably (that before to be brain-washed by RT. Of course) agree with the demonstrators. Then the Nazi came out of the woods, and stupid decision were made. It was not a pro-western or anti-Russian demonstration, it was a social movement against poverty and thanks to the Nazi it is now an “ethnic” struggle with very big chance to become a civil war.
So the Russian population in Ukraine saw a still corrupted government but with an addition of leaders who openly want to kill them and glorify the ones who did it in the past. What are they supposed to do? To wait until it happens?
No need of “agents”, no need of RT brain-washing, just memory will do the job.
“Russia is not fomenting civil disobedience or mass-protests”: No, because the Ukrainian and the EU/US are not treating the problem as internal. Read what the anti-Putin wrote and write in this forum: It is Russia. They don’t consider the Russian Ukrainians as Ukrainian Citizens. They are Russians. And they complain that the Russians considered themselves as Russians. Well, they are at least in agreement with themselves. They considered Russia as an enemy and are surprised when finally Russia is reacting as an enemy.
I still don’t understand why you are denying the fact that the Russian populations in Ukraine have a real subject of concern. Why are you seeing them as tools or brainless zombies? Why can’t you give them a little bit of consideration, and treat then as human beings with fear and feelings? You can put as much as you want of agents provocateurs in France or other more democratic countries, you won’t have an ethnic division.
A nation shouldn’t be ethnic or a pseudo identity, but build on a civic contract. And you are denying to the Russian component the right to have it.
This looks bad, stay safe Gilrandir
I didn't care that much about Iraq, and I don't care that much about Ukraine either. Except that in both cases, I want(ed) us to stay the hell out of it. It's hard to argue that I was wrong over Iraq.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
I'm not saying west was behind sniper attacks, I believe far-right extremists are most likely culprits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
From all the reports, you can't tell me the official version sounds right.
I do agree west didn't send paramilitary units in Ukraine. They just funded local ones, and provided them with political and organizational support, which is what Russia is doing, the only difference being Russia is supplying some of them weapons directly, instead of funds to acquire them.
Right, but Russia has a higher profile in its efforts. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27030365
Regardless of who started what Russia is making good use of the disturbances for their own ends.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQnXo2HMriQ Nice excuse no. Russia couldn't possibly not react.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
Does that Flemish idiot even know who his audience is.
Who said I don't care about the Russian speakers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Yes, there is a legitimate concern - it's broadly the same legitimate concern as the Ukrainian speakers feel. The Russians have exploited the anger at corruption in Ukraine, made the ethnic Russians feel it is a Kievan problem, which can be fixed by becoming Russian.
It can't.
So, you want the Ethnic Russians to be able to build an exclusive Civil Contract? Separate from the Ethnic Ukrainians?Quote:
A nation shouldn’t be ethnic or a pseudo identity, but build on a civic contract. And you are denying to the Russian component the right to have it.
That sounds like an ethnically based society to me, and France only has a "Civil Contract" because after the Revolution you forcibly suppressed ethnic difference in favour of a society modelled on the culture of the Ille de France.
Comparing Russia and the US is apples and oranges.
What the EU and the US were funding in Ukraine were Civil Rights groups, which is what they (at least the EU) do quite openly everywhere. Some of that money probably did trickle down to the militias, but that's was very clearly NOT the intention.
Russia, by contrast, is now openly importing "Cossacks".
I think it's more like two sides of the same coin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
In other news, a majority of the whole country wants Ukraine to take a middle course between Europe and Russia, and one third of Eastern Ukrainians want to secede.
So you're saying OWG already exists, controlling both Russia and the US, and all this controversy and conflict is a show to distract the sheeple?Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
The third biggest shale-gas supply has been recently discovered in the western part, don't think uncle Putin is short on ambition when it comes to that. Let him have it I say. There are some really dubious characters in western-ukraine you shouldn't even consider calling an ambulance for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
No, not really, I thought of it in a more abstract way but I'm not good at thinking or communicating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
“That sounds like an ethnically based society to me, and France only has a "Civil Contract" because after the Revolution you forcibly suppressed ethnic difference in favour of a society modelled on the culture of the Ille de France.”
Well I understand now. If you have the same level of understanding of the French Revolution that you have of the Ukrainian situation I understand you are missing something…
Well yeah, you never saw the greater pictcure of what was pretty obvious. But quality media provided me just fine, thx. At least admit it when you have been terribly terribly wrong. Insert here [here].Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Kiev started a military operation against protesters in the east. Several killed and injured.
Tanks have been noticed around Slavyansk and army took control of an airfield between Kramatorsk and Slavyansk.
Ok, I admit that I was wrong about the OWG and it does indeed exist and is in full control of both the USA and Russia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I just love that according to the White House, batons used against protesters were enough to impose sanctions on Ukraine, while now, tanks, armoured vehicles and gunships are "measured" response...
Who's crazy in this situation, I don't know anymore...
Early on in this thread, prior to the Crimean vote, I opined that the Russians might be moving to annex Crimea and everything East of the Dnieper. Bedamned if it isn't trending that way.
Russian agitation or western agitation, these are still Ukrainian citizens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
I'm just amazed how both sides change their tunes depending on whether they favour the protesters or those in power, and not over a long period of time but over several weeks...
It just illustrates my point how it was never really about Ukrainians. They're caught in a tug of war and no one gives a :daisy: about them.
Governments are always willing to hold the other guy to a higher standard of civil treatment of citizens and upholding the rights of citizens than they do themselves.
I don’t think there is a shortage of examples of this in either the US or Russia, or just about anywhere else.
Besides, the US may be wanting to use armored vehicles and attack helicopters in Nevada in a week or so.
You really are clueless, aren't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Let me tell you a little story. Back in 2000, I was a part of student association called Student Union of Serbia, or SUS for short. SUS was created as a student organization to counter Student's Alliance which was seen as a remnant of communist times, generally corrupt and disinterested in politics. They preferred status quo. SUS, together with Otpor, which was the militant arm, was instrumental in organizing mass protests against Milosevic. Both were financed and organized from Washington. I was high enough to know where's the money coming from, but I wasn't high enough to know how much, sadly.
We were never directly financed by the US government. Instead, we were financed through several other organizations, including various NGO's and other student's organizations, but it was clear SUS was getting much more money than a student organization was supposed to. Additionally, Otpor was receiving even more money and also organizational support. For example, this was the pamphlet that was giving the guidelines on how to dress properly.
This one for protests against Milosevic in 2000.
Attachment 12777
And these are the pamphlets used in Egypt in 2011 and in Kiev in 2014
Attachment 12778
Notice the similarities. You will also notice that's exactly how those on the forefront of protests during Maidan were dressed, if you watch the video.
It was a well rehearsed and properly funded and organized action. The basic idea is to have a relatively small group, that is highly motivated, properly trained and instructed, and given generous funding, which will then "channel" the public dissent and steer it in the way it's supposed to go, working together with opposition politicians.
The scenario was actually perfected during 2000 protests against Milosevic and is now used as a blueprint. The only difference is that there were less violence in Serbia, probably because far-right organizations weren't involved. Football hooligans were used instead to form shock troops, but only at the very end.
Now, Kiev is again recruiting those far-right extremists and putting them in uniform to combat anti-government protesters in the east. It will get ugly.
So, save your preaching for someone who's more gullible.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
After the Revolution, the new government standardised everything, including language - in much the same way that Ukraine only allows the use of Ukrainian to conduct official business, France only allowed French. This put you at a disadvantage if you spoke Provence or Gascon, or Breton.
You've got some mileage there - but until Poland sweeps into Ukraine and annexes the Oblasts that were once Polish, I'm still not buying into the comparison. We're talking about channelling, or even stirring up, unrest to affect a change WITHIN a country, and it's a momentary thing - the change comes and protests subside. Sometimes, the change doesn't stick because either the locals don't want it, or the politicians in question lack the acumen to see it through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Putin is trying to exert direct[ control. That's fundamentally different.
“After the Revolution, the new government standardised everything, including language - in much the same way that Ukraine only allows the use of Ukrainian to conduct official business, France only allowed French. This put you at a disadvantage if you spoke Provence or Gascon, or Breton.”
Well done, you just prove my point.
So, can you explain why the languages you mention still exist? And by the way, the French as language of the Republic was voted by the parliament, in all the 5 constitutions, not imposed.
For your improvement, I suggest checking when and who created the Academie Française. All right I give it: 1635 by a King Louis XIII and the Cardinal de Richelieu (yes, the bad guy of the 3 musketeers, probably your source of French History, one of) in order to unite the Kingdom after the Religious Wars.
Now, because it is late, I suggest you read about the Fete de la Federation 1790)… and comparing events from 1789 and 2014 is the high in disinformation.
You can as well refer to the Traité de Verdun between Louis le Germanique and Charles le Chauve (843)…
Really hoping your knowledge and analyse of the Ukrainian situation is based on strongest bases.:rolleyes:
And so it begins. Now Putin will have no choice but to intervene militarily - just as he planned...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
To say he has "no choice" seems overblown to me.
He is merely choosing the stabby option because he is a raving fascist autocrat.
He was fabricating his callus belli.
"Suppression of Breton Language" into Google, produced this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VergonhaQuote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Congrats, we don't have a word for what we did to the Welsh.
My point, people in France speak French because there was a sustained campaign, most especially under the Republic, to eliminate alternative languages and thence alternative cultures. If you cannot read Breton, you cannot read Breton romances or poems, you do not have access to the culture. Likewise Occitan dialects.
Now, this was a national project to create a national "French" character in order that all the people would be part of the same "Civil Contract."
This was not a natural process, as you implied, it was enforced top-down just as it was in Britain or Germany.
See - I just declared Holy War on the local Pagan Tartars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
What kind of proportion? How many government changes have the USA supported by now, how many people have been enslaved by US-supported dictators? How many people have been killed directly and indirectly through US meddling in other countries' affairs and how does that compare to Putin annexing a small peninsula without any real blood shed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Even if we agree that it wasn't nice, it was still somehow genius in terms of execution. Just like all these "popular revolts" that are heavily funded and fueled by the West, don't necessarily lead to anything good but usually make sure that a lot of people die in the process.
If only your government would adopt that view more often.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Great argument. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
FREEEEDDDDOOOOOMMMMMM. Funny this is exactly oppisite of what the Russian ambassador said on BBC this morning
Fascist apes.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukra...ow-343644.html
I don't understand why we can't just talk about Putin and Ukraine without bringing the West into it. Whenever this board discusses US politics or compares the US to Europe the US is seen as a corrupt oligarchy that barely represents the interest of its citizens. Now in this thread all of a sudden the US is a direct democracy and every American on this forum agrees with everything the US has ever done, so therefore no one is allowed to say anything bad about Putin because that would be hypocritical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Obviously, if the Putin apologists here had to defend Putin's causing a civil war in his neighboring state without bringing up every bad thing America has done as some sort of Chewbacca defense they'd have absolutely no arguments. They pout out an avalanche of logical fallacies in Putin's defense, and they would, it seems, continue to do so even if Russian tanks roll into Kiev.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuuvi
CR
Europeans in here are just trying to stick to their time honored tradition of refusing to believe that two wrongs do not make a right.
“Suppression of Breton Language” Except of course there is not 1 Breton language but at least 2. So, which one do we speak of?
Was it natural but imposed: both. My grand-father spoke a local dialect (probably base on Occitan) but my mother didn’t so I don’t, because we were not taught at home. Did we lose culture? No, as the traditions were passed to as, but modern life was more efficient in destroying the local social aspect of the old tribes living where I born (the village has traces of settlement before Roman Invasion). In this matter, Christianity was more efficient.
It was seen as bad manners to speak local languages, and as my Grand-Father (and grand-mother) were communists, it was probably part of the ideology (against nationalism source of conflict sort of and united –so understanding each other’s - workers will not be fool by international capitalism, capitalism bearing war like black clouds carry storms, etc). But I admit it is a interpretation from me.
The imposition of compulsory school, but much more efficient military service did the job. The following regimes didn’t need to impose things. They just to put in place the structures and it went the way. The pre-revolution parliaments were taking notes in French.
So, no, it was not the French Revolution that imposed French, and in this matter, the victory of the King of France on the Count of Toulouse was probably much more efficient.
In fact, the most spoken local language spoken in France is probably Alsatian. They have a newspaper, learn it and keep it alive. But the Bretons were not interested, nor the Catalans, the Basques, the Cannois, and others.
You fall in the trap believing that there is one unique French identity and the Breton were not part of it. Nope. As I said, France is a social or political contract. France can’t be based on languages as there is/was more than one. Not on territory as borders always changed (Savoie and Nice became French in the 1860’), The Parliament of Trevoux ( La Bombes- my birthplace) was annexed by Louis XV. Certainly not on ethnicities as northern populations have more links with England and Belgium than with the Provenciaux. Not on religion grounds, we had enough civil wars to prove it.
“Likewise Occitan dialects”: So I never heard of Tritan and Isseult. Ooops, but I did. I even study the book at school, alongside Du Bellay, Ronsard, Racine, Ruteboeuf , Rabelais, and Guillaume de Poitiers.
The season removed his coat
Of wind, cold an drain,
And put on embroidery,
Gleaming sunshine, bright and beautiful.
There is neither animal nor bird
That doesn’t tell in it’s own tongue:
The season removed his coat.
Rivers, fountains and brooks
Wear, as handsome garments,
Silver drops of goldsmith’s work;
Everyone puts on new clothing:
The season removed his coat.
Charles de Poitiers 1394-1465.
This is why French as language, won.
"Obviously, if the Putin apologists here had to defend Putin's causing a civil war": Well, in my view, if the Ukrainian would have follow a democratic process, Putin wouldn't have the opportunity to move in Crimea.
Because, perhaps I am wrong, but if I remember well, it was not the Ethnic Russian who storm the Parliament (and this I can understand) and then started to threaten the Ukrainian populations. It is not within the Russian Ukrainian Populations that leaders are openly Nazi and openly promote the killing of the Ukrainians.
However, you can carry on to pretend it is a Putin manipulation (and the Russian minorities in Ukraine are just stupid and brainless who don't know what is good for them so let's kill them) if it makes you feel better.
So, now, when saying that the West actions (and not only in Ukraine) are part of the problem, and underlining the West hypocrisy in this matter is becoming to be "Putin apologists", we can see propaganda in action.
Well, I am not a Putin Apologist. I am not a West blindly apologist as well. I am just fed-up of Western propaganda and "we kill people for good reasons" and "they killed people for bad reasons".
That's true. Americans are much more subtle when they're trying to achieve the same goal. Unification of Germany was a Godsend for that. Huge amount of weapons in East Germany and all of it Soviet made. They used it to arm Croatian separatists. After they trained them and organized them, provided intelligence, logistical support and even air strikes just before the attack. Never directly, mind you, it was done through a "consulting company" owned by several retired American generals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
During Kosovo, Americans trained KLA fighters in camps in Albania.
So, similar stuff has happened and will happen in the future. US never directly annexed territory in the last several decades and instead just installed puppet regimes dependent on US for everything, I agree with that, but Crimea was unique in that regard as it was a part of Russia for several centuries and population really did want re-unification, regardless of sham referendum.
Which is the eternal excuse for US foreign policy blunders and military invasions.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
We made a mistake, but don't question us or oppose us - two wrongs don't make a right.
Maybe US should stop making mistakes instead asking everyone no to oppose them on the grounds that two wrongs don't make a right.
How do you know they were not interested? Did you ask them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
We must admit that there are stronger and weaker languages. The task of the governments is to make sure weaker languages are getting more support from them. It is the easiest way to say: "They are not interested in keeping their language" than to provide conditions for people to keep whatever small interest they may have.
As for Ukraine, Russian is definitely the stronger language (there are several reasons why, but I don't expect you are interested in them) and I gave proofs on how it was promoted in the times of the Soviet Union. Now it is under no theat of extinction in Ukraine. So supporting it now more than (or at least equally with) Ukrainian will ensure its further domination and eventual ousting of Ukrainian from many social spheres. It is Ukrainian that needs support now.
In all the attempts to equate Maidan and Donetsk region protesters there is one thing no one mentioned: Maidan and its followers in different regions NEVER proclaimed any quasi-states and NEVER declared their wish to separate from Ukraine and become a part of any other country. This is the crucial difference which allows toQuote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
brand protesters in the East as separatists and treat them correspondingly.
Didn't Lviv proclaim self-rule before Yanukovuch was toppled?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
Also, the protesters are asking for a greater autonomy and instead of negotiations, they got tanks...
Self-rule is not a new independent state state with its flag, its own armed forces and claims for an independent foreign policy and appeal to the UNO and other international bodies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
The central government is ready to negotiate more rights delegated locally, only the protesters are not. They are set on issuing demands and ultimatums. Indeed, Yatsenyuk spoke of an administrative reform and changes in the constitution it would neccessitate. The constitutional committee is already drawing some drafts for it - but the protesters seem to think that it can be done overnight. Many analysts in Ukraine (and those from the East most of all) believe that the instigators of the protests (alongside with the Kremlin and the esapees of the previous regime) are local elites who are thus bargaining for the preservation of their status in the region.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
As for tanks, they were sent against the GRU force in Slavyansk not against the protesters in other towns of Donetsk region. At least, not yet.
Send me the 20$ they want and I will read it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
After all you Americans are more rich, clever and prosperous than us so I cannot afford that.
Are drone strikes on weddings part of that "great game"? Sounds "great" indeed. No wait, actually it sounds brainwashed when you say the country that invaded countless other countries in recent history is just playing the "great game", that's pure whitewashing that reminds me of WW1 rhetoric...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
You're a very special flower, aren't you? How many topics about European politics ended up as discussions about US politics? But when it's about bringing America's faults into a topic then we should rather not bring America into the topic, eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuuvi
It's all correct regarding the American posters until "so therefore", which should read "so therefore America has the moral highground and all the right in the world to advocate and push for a war against the Russian Federation on European soil.". If you had written that, you'd have represented the stance of some Americans very well. The attempt to wash yourselves clean by saying America is not a direct democracy is really lame by the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuuvi
"Putin apologists" is just loaded propaganda that doesn't reflect what people have said, but thanks for trying. You may want to try again when you have actually read peoples' arguments through something other than a pro-Muricah-lens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Then stop talking about Crimea, that was in the past. So basically the Ukrainian Nazi usurper government is trying to violently oppress protesters in the East, what should anyone do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
This would have more value if you had said it after 9/11, but back then you were far more fond of the time-honored American tradition of wanting revenge, which only ended with the murder of bin Laden. Crimea river dude.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
That is true, but they basically declared themselves independent from Kiev until they get the government they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
They didn't get a serious proposal or a serious delegation. Only vague talk that there might be decentralization, but no guarantees or mentions of what and when.Quote:
The central government is ready to negotiate more rights delegated locally, only the protesters are not. They are set on issuing demands and ultimatums. Indeed, Yatsenyuk spoke of an administrative reform and changes in the constitution it would neccessitate. The constitutional committee is already drawing some drafts for it - but the protesters seem to think that it can be done overnight. Many analysts in Ukraine (and those from the East most of all) believe that the instigators of the protests (alongside with the Kremlin and the esapees of the previous regime) are local elites who are thus bargaining for the preservation of their status in the region.
As for tanks, they were sent against the GRU force in Slavyansk not against the protesters in other towns of Donetsk region. At least, not yet.
No EU ministers flew to Kiev to force the government to negotiate with protesters or create a binding document like they did when Yanukovich was in power.
Haha I don't buy into that line of thinkingQuote:
Originally Posted by Husar
I think most of you are 6 years old screaming "WELL YOU KIND OF DID IT ONCE TOO"
Which is fine, I realize the lot of you are malcontents with no hope, and no idea of how people actually interact
My only solace is that many of you will never have an effect on policy besides bitching to the people at your job who think youre strange
All of them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
That's a daft question to be asking.
*Very deep calming breath.*Quote:
“Likewise Occitan dialects”: So I never heard of Tritan and Isseult. Ooops, but I did. I even study the book at school, alongside Du Bellay, Ronsard, Racine, Ruteboeuf , Rabelais, and Guillaume de Poitiers.
It is not a "Book" it is a Breton Lay, a sung poem, like a ballard - it survives in Norman, not Occitan, fragments and was later translated into French, prosified etc.
Tristan has an S in.
I give up, I'm going to go away and have a cry.
Can't you read? It's not about you kind of did it once (it's should be you did worse many times but that's beside the point), but you're doing it now. Disregarding western influence in Maidan protest and their eventual effect is stupid or ignorant, I'm not really sure which one is it always. It doesn't of course ezcuse Russian actions but it must be taken into account when talking about a solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Drop the ideology. This is not good vs. bad. It is two thugs who want the kid in their gang. One wants him whole the other will take whatever body parts he can get.
Spooks are like the guys on Madison Ave. They want to beat the competition.
They are promoting a product at the expense of the other company. Market share.
Which side is ultimately the worst is just a matter of opinion.
Personally I am for the people of Ukraine. The best thing that could happen is they keep their borders and get money to help out from both sides.
Interests in the west and Russia have gotten what they want, more defense spending and at least a mini cold war that will prove profitable.
Putin however, is a patriot and true believer who wants to return to the glory days with more people under his thumb. That is the problem now.
Ad hominem is always the best kind of argument when you run out of actual arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Yeah, just ignore my last post and repeat what you said before. How about quoting what people actually say instead of blanket statements that do not contain any arguments and only show you misunderstood what others are posting?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
There are two problems, both sides want Ukraine for themselves and the people of Ukraine have chosen such extremes that their unity as Ukrainians broke apart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
Maybe, but then NATO is playing into his hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
Two representatives of the law-enforcement part of the government - Parubiy and Yarema - were there. Parubiy stated that it was hard to parley with the protesters: in the evening they agree on some decision, in the morning they forward new claims. It is evident that protesters are not the decision makers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
“How do you know they were not interested?” This is easy to answer as local languages are taught in schools on voluntary basis. Not too many attendants.
“Maidan and its followers in different regions NEVER proclaimed any quasi-states and NEVER declared their wish to separate from Ukraine and become a part of any other country.” True. They just claimed to speak for the entire Ukraine.
“Tristan has an S in.” Yeap, typing mistake. But I can understand it is a great and constructive critic of what I am saying… But read Blaise Pascal on the “divertissement” (basically, if a preacher is half shaved, nobody cares of what he says).
“ballard” Ballad. About typing mistake and distraction… It is still in a book. After the Romans slaughtered all the Druids who were transmitting knowledge by learning by heart, we went for printing form, even songs…
“I'm going to go away and have a cry.” Hopefully you will feel better. And you have a lot of reading to catch-up.
Unbelievable how much this thread has deteriorated during this last week. Does anyone actually anymore care what is happening in Ukraine or is the blame game and mud slinging too important to be disturbed by anything else?
I just see Ukraine trying to do what ever it can to stop the unrest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
NATO and the EU can hardly agree on the day of the week. I don’t see them doing anything, helpful or otherwise.
All this is just Vlad’s game ATM.
You're again misinterpreting what's been said but after 10 times, I don't have an inclination to try to explain it once again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
That's what I said will happen, on these boards four or five years ago, if Ukraine is pushed into NATO.Quote:
Ukraine will be two countries at best a month from now.
Claiming moral high ground is useless. Nevertheless the situation is worrisome. Take a look at this video filmed during Pro Russian "activist" takeover of the police HQ of Kramatorsk and make up your own mind if there are or are not Russian regular troops at Eastern Ukraine already:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/new...police-HQ.html
More than just moral support. You know as well as I, that even though protests originally started as few hundred people were protesting against Yanukovich's decision to abandon a deal with EU but the majority of people later were involved in because they were tired of corruption and poverty. Those protest were hijacked and turned into an anti-Russian/pro-western issue, bringing a different batch of corrupt politicians with a sprinkle of nazis in power. And those militant protesters were responsible for provoking the police, trying to take over government buildings violently and quite likely shot other protesters to incite them to more violence. After a deal was made, the most militant protesters broke it and performed a coup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Instead of indirect support the west offered, Russia is supporting anti-government protesters directly, either by equipping them or throwing some of their experts in there. It's not just Russian agents, a few dozen armed men can not take control of ten towns and cities without support from local population.
That's not important because of "you did it, too", but to understand that western actions are part of the problem and must also be a part of the solution. The west feels it has got Ukraine now and that's why they've changed their tune from "no one must touch the protesters" from a few months ago to "send tanks against them" now. Even though a more federalized and politically neutral Ukraine would end the conflict, the west is encouraging the Maidan government to crush protesters in the east.
Just like how they put pressure on Yanukovich to deal with protesters through diplomacy instead of violence, they now should put pressure on Maidan government to do the same, instead of applauding armoured vehicles and gunships being sent.
Because, just like you said, Ukrainian military can't do anything. The army is very pro-Russian and also, naturally, quite disinclined to fire on their own people. They can shuffle defense ministers through eternity, there's no chance the army will do it. That's why they're talking about creating a national guard type of thing, which will mostly be made up of western nationalists and fascists who will have no qualms about killing Russians or Ukrainian traitors. If those guys are sent in, all hell will break loose and civil war will be inevitable. The cart blanche Kiev got from the west needs to be withdrawn.
That's the only solution that may stop the conflict before it passes the point of no return and Ukraine really ends up in a bloody civil war and totally dismembered.
What if Latin was taught on voluntary basis? Still low attendance? A good excuse to stop any attempts of helping the weaker languages. People were not interested because they can't see any prospects of a language being used some time in future. Will you be interested in learning driving if you knew that you will never see a car after you finish your study (except on the screen)? It has to be something else than asking people: "Which of you don't want to bother yourselves with learning that useless stuff?" Any newspapers, TV channels, University courses, books translated, dictionaries published, popularization campaigns or any other activities in those languages to report?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
And past experience shows that, once we intervene, we'll be there years from now being hated by both sides for intervening. I'd rather we weren't part of that. If we're going to be hated, at least let us be hated for not doing something and saving ourselves money in the process. Ukraine has no special claim on us that we need to do something for them, and if we do "help" them, a significant chunk of the country who see themselves as Russians will hate us for being there, and I'd wager a significant chunk of those who see themselves as not-Russians will hate us as well, either for not doing as they want us to do, or for simply being there. Why throw ourselves into that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
To prevent 50 million people from losing their freedom, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
The biggest takeaway is that, in all likelihood, a European power will dismember a fellow European state and annex some of its core constituent territories in what is no less than the name of ethnic irredentism. Aside from the Godwin, this is a return to form that nevertheless carries huge implications for the international system. Increasingly over the past couple of decades, the post-war order of stiff and stable borders has been deteriorating. This might prove a death-knell. And just because most of Europe has dropped whatever territorial claims they once held doesn't mean they can't invent new ones. In the medium-term, if the EU collapses, if the far-rightists take over, if Germany falters - we will see a continental war within our lifetimes.
And the second, more immediate, concern is Putin annexing the East and/or turning it into a client state or independent region is possibly the only thing mitigating against a Ukrainian civil war.
“What if Latin was taught on voluntary basis?” Err, Latin is taught on voluntary basis.
“Still low attendance?” Better than Breton, for sure.
“A good excuse to stop any attempts of helping the weaker languages” To stop any attempts? Err, when and where?
“Any newspapers, TV channels, University courses, books translated, dictionaries published, popularization campaigns or any other activities in those languages to report?” Yeah, universities, newspapers and all the lot. Not really picking-up and without massive subsidies from government, they would have cease to breath. Something else? Well, we can oblige unwilling pupils to learn useless languages, for sure, but you can’t force adults to use them.
It's just an argument I repeat when US-boys ride into the room on their exceptionally large moral horses again and again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
The only reason Russia dismantles that neighbor is because a bunch of people teamed up with Nazis to topple the democratically elected president and didn't take into consideration what their neighbors both inside and outside the country thought of it. Instead they announced to change the country's course 180° and celebrated that with their western buddies while their ignored neighbors who had their elected president expelled obviously got angrier and angrier. The result is a huge mess and I refuse to run around on a high horse and shift all blame to the other side, which is what most pro-Western posters here did. And just because I refuse to celebrate our way of life as the nonplusultra of ways of living and see that we made a big mistake there by blatantly supporting only half of the country and celebrating that the other half lost, I'm not a Putin apologist. Is that so hard to understand? And is it so hard to understand that "making up" for our mistake by starting WW3 now is a bloody idiotic idea?
Yes, just like Afghanistan, we went in cheering for ourselves and then found out that we have neither a clue nor a plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
Would those 50 million include those who see themselves as Russians? Or do they not count, and freedom only applies to those who appeal to us, and those who aren't included get our version of freedom imposed on them? We Brits have lots of experience in sending troops to places where there are multiple groups of people who disagree with each other on how things should go, and we sent them in to enforce some kind of peace and order. And we've got loads of crap for it, including on many occasions from Americans who see this as yet more British imperialism.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Just to name a couple of instances, we got kicked for it in Palestine until we turned tail and ran, and there are probably still Americans who blame us for being there in the first place, and we're still hated by both Jews and Arabs for being there, not completely backing their side, and whatever else is related to the fact that it was us who were there. And more recently, there's Northern Ireland, and that phenomenon called the plastic paddy, Americans who've never been near Ireland or the British Isles but who find it glamorous to pretend to be Irish and define their "Irishness" as a hatred of the British. Who were, once again, only over there to keep two sides from killing each other.
At least in Northern Ireland there's a status quo of Britishness and the basic principle of self-determination to justify us being there. There's scant Britishness in Ukraine, and we'd be there to prevent self-determination. Why go there and pour money and blood down the drain for the end result of being hated by both sides?
Of course they count. Won't those Russians be free as well? Russian or not, if they're absorbed by Putin's blob they can bid farewell to freedom. Russia is rapidly crossing from your run of the mill authoritarian state into full scale totalitarianism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
But if they choose that, what right do we have to stop them? Britain's position on Northern Ireland, Gibraltar, Falklands and all those other places where we're the primary occupying power is based on the principle of self-determination. They're British because they choose to be. If they choose to not be British, that's their right too, and we'll respect that too. The Scots are getting a referendum on that as they wanted, and we'll respect the result of that too. Do you know any Americans who want the Scots to choose "freedom", as one in the eye for the English?Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Most of the time, I do, indeed, and in this case in particular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
I'd understand if you didn't agree with the point I made but I can't really accept that you don't understand that point and call it apologism
It's the internet so there's bound to be a couple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
1. I include EU foreign policy in thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
2. All I see is whining about how America cannot do what it wants and have everyone cheer for it. Did you think Putin/Russia would applaud your efforts to get yet another NATO member right on his borders? Your argument boils down to America being the lesser evil and that's why we should be happy to be allied to America. My argument is that it's no reason to be happy but maybe to be a little bit less sad. It's almost like some Americans refuse to believe that someone could actually not love their nation and not be an enemy of it. :dizzy2: