Ukraine-in-a-thread

[HopAlongBunny]

Not revolution yet, but both sides are laying bets on the answer to that classic question of legitimacy:

When they knock on your front door
How ya gonna come?
With yer hands on your head
Or on the trigger of your gun?

(the Clash: Guns of Brixton)

[Fisherking]

I bow to your superior knowledge of firearms. I barely know a pistol from a rifle so AK74 and AK74M look the same to me.

So, what you're saying is that Russian professionals are mixed with local militia groups?



Of course they were funded by the west, but there were no foreign troops among them, to the best of our knowledge.

The main difference visually is that the AK-74M has black polymer parts rather than wooden on the stock, grip, and fore arm. The weapons seen in the video are also equipped with what looks like the Picatinny rail system, which is a newer improvement for easier mounting of accessories and attachments.

today
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27017707

[Myth]

Well the Russian consuls did say they ain't stopping with Crimea. And with the rest of the world being so tip-toey, I can't say I blame them. Crimea was the demo version. It worked well enough. Now East Ukraine is the real deal, and that's where the money's at anyway.

[GenosseGeneral]

What I am saying is that local radicals with military exlerience have been recruited by Russian intelligence (most likely the GRU) into these strike groups. They were trained, equipped and armed to carry out attacks.
Last weekend their commanders decided that time is riped and launched the campaign we are currently observing.
After taking these police stations, they quickly distribituded the looted guns to pro-Russian protestors, who then also build the Maidan-like barricades.

So unlike in Crimea, they are not necessarily Russian troops on Ukrainian soil, but at least those strike commandos were raised by Russia and receive their orders from there.

[Sarmatian]

Well the Russian consuls did say they ain't stopping with Crimea. And with the rest of the world being so tip-toey, I can't say I blame them. Crimea was the demo version. It worked well enough. Now East Ukraine is the real deal, and that's where the money's at anyway.

I wouldn't trust Russian consuls from Malawi and Zimbabwe to have insight into Kremlin politics.

Crimea was different. They already had 10000-20000 troops on the ground and more than just implicit support from the local population.

Eastern Ukraine is different. While they may be pro-Russian enough to demand greater autonomy from Kiev and closer ties with Russia, I doubt Russia could pull of what it did in Crimea, that is, taking control of the territory without firing a shot.

[Brenus]

“the problem is they don't have a mandate to do any of this until the elections”: Well they did sign agreement with EU. So, they can do better than threatening to go to war against their own citizens. Calling them “terrorists” doesn’t help and resolves nothing.

It is a mess.
The Western Policy of containment as in the good time of the Cold War without any restrain is now showing the bill, and unfortunately Ukraine will pay the bill. Of course the Russian are sending specialists, I have no doubts, like the US were sending specialists to the Kosovars and the Croats (or how can you explain that in 2/3 years, under arms embargo, the Croats succeeded to have an army able to launch 2 major offensive combining all forces, equipped with material they were familiar with)?

Who want a war in Ukraine (I think 6 nuclear plants and one of them is Chernobyl)? Are you ready for the nuclear dust going freely in the atmosphere?

Time to think politic, and stop playing with Ukraine populations, start talking.

[Sarmatian]

merely offering moral support to certain elements of a popular movement that was already underway. Not the same thing at all.

The west has been funding and organizing opposition for a long time and basically hijacked a popular protest that was about corruption and poverty and turned it to a anti-Russian/pro-western thingy.

It's about influence in Ukraine, let's not pretend it was ever about Ukrainians.

While I agree that Russia is more hands-on with their approach, the basic idea is the same.

[Sarmatian]

It is not the same. It just isn't. In principle maybe, but absolutely not in proportion.

You mean, the original protests were about control of the entire country, and the current are only about the eastern part?

C'mon, you're intelligent enough to discern the truth from bull - just go and read news articles from January, February and March...

[Brenus]

“What Russia is doing is actually fomenting revolution with men, arms, and command and control.” What Russia is doing is exploiting the Western weakness, as the west did exploit the Eltsine’s times to grab what it could. I went in Russia at these times, when the name of the prostitutes in Istanbul was Natasha and when Russia had to swallow adder after adder (not sure, translated from French).

The political mistake of Ukrainian Nazis opened the gates for pay-back, and until now, as for the West few years ago, no blood (from the aggressors, US/EU or Russian) is spilled. Do you notice that Russia use the same vocabulary than John Kerry or, before him, Madeleine Albright? Same pretexts for interventions, same manners and like years ago, same victims, the populations.

The fact is I don’t like what Putin is doing. I didn’t like it when we were doing it. I didn’t like NATO bombers dropping bombs on various countries, and NATO supporting some Ethnic Cleansing when pretending to stop others. And I don’t like shocks of Civilisations and others Bushism that become Putinism.

But it is highly hypocritical to blame Putin and to paint him as a dictator as he is doing exactly what we did, against international laws, against UN resolutions.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Eh, not Russia, Putin.

There is no Russia right now, just Putin's Empire.

Brenus is correct that the West is weak and unprepared, but that is because we have spent twenty years operating a policy of assimilation rather than containment - after the collapse of the Soviet Union the EU and NATO expanded eastwards not to CONTAIN Russia but TOWARD Russia - I remember the 90's, and the prevailing feeling then was that eventually we would make the Russians "like us" just as we have with the Czechs, Slovaks, and Poles, and as we are with Romania and Bulgaria. More to the point - these countries have actively sought inclusion in the Western Sphere, the aspire to closer integration, no provocateurs or manipulation was required.

Ukraine has been a somewhat different story, but there is a sharp difference between the EU offering moral and financial support to "pro-Western" (read: anti-corruption/reform) movements in Ukraine and actively arming Right Sector, isn't there?

Russia is not fomenting civil disobedience, or mass-protests. It is funding and equipping para-military units who are capturing arsenals and police stations.

[rvg]

This thread is starting to remind me of Baghdad Bob. Back in the 2003 campaign even after the American troops entered Baghdad, he kept on raving about "heroes of Umm Qasr" still holding the border. It seems that no matter what Putin does, to the local Bobs he's just a swell guy, no worse than the West and in some ways even better. Heck, let him take all of Ukraine, Umm Qasr will still stand.

[Montmorency]

I hear East Ukraine's about to be annexed...

[Sarmatian]

Ukraine has been a somewhat different story, but there is a sharp difference between the EU offering moral and financial support to "pro-Western" (read: anti-corruption/reform) movements in Ukraine and actively arming Right Sector, isn't there?

Russia is not fomenting civil disobedience, or mass-protests. It is funding and equipping para-military units who are capturing arsenals and police stations.

I'm gonna go full Tribesman on this

When protesters in Kiev were attacking police stations and taking over government building they were peaceful protesters, who are to be given financial, organizational and moral support, plus political pressure would be applied to the government.
When the western part of the country declared "self-rule", they were still peaceful protesters. When they stormed and took control of police stations and other government building in Lviv they were still peaceful protesters. When they set Ministry of the Interior buidling on fire they were still peaceful protesters. When they've gone full medieval in Lutsk and tied regional governor in the central city square they were still peaceful protesters.

Everyone was going on about snipers until it became clear it wasn't Yanukovich who ordered it. After that, it was swept under the rug and no one talks about it anymore.

When Kerry and Fuelle (and scores of other western politicians) were talking about constitutional changes that Ukraine needs while Yanukovich was still in power, that was perfectly acceptable and normal. When Lavrov says the same things, it's meddling in internal affairs of Ukraine. It was also perfectly acceptable to send foreign ministers to put pressure on Ukraine to accept protesters' demands. Sanctions are also perfectly acceptable. None of it is meddling in internal affairs of a country.

Before anyone mentioned the army, western politicians preemptively warned against it, threatening sanctions and consequences for Ukraine and Yanukovich if that happens. When Maidan government actually threatens to use the army or sends police units to combat protesters in the east, everyone's silent.

While they were still opposition, they had the mandate to talk about constitutional changes. After they've seized power, they had the mandate to immediately pledge themselves to EU and NATO. They've had the mandate ban Russian language and to start procedures to ban Communist Party and the Party of Regions. They had the mandate to try to violently expel governors and regional administrations they didn't like. But, now they don't have the mandate to talk about constitutional changes. Anyone mentioning it is meddling in internal affairs.

It's ironic how they're getting a taste of their own medicine and how they're proving to be worse thugs than Yanukovich. They've gambled and they lost, but no one has to cojones to admit that, so they're plunging the country deeper into the chaos of civil war and inevitable bankruptcy.

[Brenus]

“but there is a sharp difference between the EU offering moral and financial support to "pro-Western" (read: anti-corruption/reform) movements in Ukraine and actively arming Right Sector, isn't there?” Can you explain the “sharp” difference in carving others borders, toppling leaders and invading others in both cases? As much as I know, the actual leaderships in Bosnia and Kosovo are more related to mafia than democratic governance. And the “anti-corruption/reform” movement in Ukraine just put the corrupted from the previous administration in power.

The West just took from the Ukrainian movement its meaning, its reason. During the movement itself, there was no move from the Russian Parts as they were probably (that before to be brain-washed by RT. Of course) agree with the demonstrators. Then the Nazi came out of the woods, and stupid decision were made. It was not a pro-western or anti-Russian demonstration, it was a social movement against poverty and thanks to the Nazi it is now an “ethnic” struggle with very big chance to become a civil war.
So the Russian population in Ukraine saw a still corrupted government but with an addition of leaders who openly want to kill them and glorify the ones who did it in the past. What are they supposed to do? To wait until it happens?
No need of “agents”, no need of RT brain-washing, just memory will do the job.

“Russia is not fomenting civil disobedience or mass-protests”: No, because the Ukrainian and the EU/US are not treating the problem as internal. Read what the anti-Putin wrote and write in this forum: It is Russia. They don’t consider the Russian Ukrainians as Ukrainian Citizens. They are Russians. And they complain that the Russians considered themselves as Russians. Well, they are at least in agreement with themselves. They considered Russia as an enemy and are surprised when finally Russia is reacting as an enemy.
I still don’t understand why you are denying the fact that the Russian populations in Ukraine have a real subject of concern. Why are you seeing them as tools or brainless zombies? Why can’t you give them a little bit of consideration, and treat then as human beings with fear and feelings? You can put as much as you want of agents provocateurs in France or other more democratic countries, you won’t have an ethnic division.
A nation shouldn’t be ethnic or a pseudo identity, but build on a civic contract. And you are denying to the Russian component the right to have it.

[Fragony]

This looks bad, stay safe Gilrandir

[Pannonian]

This thread is starting to remind me of Baghdad Bob. Back in the 2003 campaign even after the American troops entered Baghdad, he kept on raving about "heroes of Umm Qasr" still holding the border. It seems that no matter what Putin does, to the local Bobs he's just a swell guy, no worse than the West and in some ways even better. Heck, let him take all of Ukraine, Umm Qasr will still stand.

I didn't care that much about Iraq, and I don't care that much about Ukraine either. Except that in both cases, I want(ed) us to stay the hell out of it. It's hard to argue that I was wrong over Iraq.

[Sarmatian]

You've drunk the Kool Aid man, if you think the West was behind the Snipers or that we had paramilitary units inserted amongst the agitators.

I'm not saying west was behind sniper attacks, I believe far-right extremists are most likely culprits.

From all the reports, you can't tell me the official version sounds right.

I do agree west didn't send paramilitary units in Ukraine. They just funded local ones, and provided them with political and organizational support, which is what Russia is doing, the only difference being Russia is supplying some of them weapons directly, instead of funds to acquire them.

[Fisherking]

Right, but Russia has a higher profile in its efforts. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27030365

Regardless of who started what Russia is making good use of the disturbances for their own ends.

[Fragony]

Right, but Russia has a higher profile in its efforts. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27030365

Regardless of who started what Russia is making good use of the disturbances for their own ends.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQnXo2HMriQ Nice excuse no. Russia couldn't possibly not react.

Does that Flemish idiot even know who his audience is.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I still don’t understand why you are denying the fact that the Russian populations in Ukraine have a real subject of concern. Why are you seeing them as tools or brainless zombies? Why can’t you give them a little bit of consideration, and treat then as human beings with fear and feelings? You can put as much as you want of agents provocateurs in France or other more democratic countries, you won’t have an ethnic division.

Who said I don't care about the Russian speakers?

Yes, there is a legitimate concern - it's broadly the same legitimate concern as the Ukrainian speakers feel. The Russians have exploited the anger at corruption in Ukraine, made the ethnic Russians feel it is a Kievan problem, which can be fixed by becoming Russian.

It can't.

A nation shouldn’t be ethnic or a pseudo identity, but build on a civic contract. And you are denying to the Russian component the right to have it.

So, you want the Ethnic Russians to be able to build an exclusive Civil Contract? Separate from the Ethnic Ukrainians?

That sounds like an ethnically based society to me, and France only has a "Civil Contract" because after the Revolution you forcibly suppressed ethnic difference in favour of a society modelled on the culture of the Ille de France.

Comparing Russia and the US is apples and oranges.

What the EU and the US were funding in Ukraine were Civil Rights groups, which is what they (at least the EU) do quite openly everywhere. Some of that money probably did trickle down to the militias, but that's was very clearly NOT the intention.

Russia, by contrast, is now openly importing "Cossacks".

[Husar]

Comparing Russia and the US is apples and oranges.

I think it's more like two sides of the same coin.

[Montmorency]

In other news, a majority of the whole country wants Ukraine to take a middle course between Europe and Russia, and one third of Eastern Ukrainians want to secede.

[Montmorency]

I think it's more like two sides of the same coin.

So you're saying OWG already exists, controlling both Russia and the US, and all this controversy and conflict is a show to distract the sheeple?

[Fragony]

In other news, a majority of the whole country wants Ukraine to take a middle course between Europe and Russia, and one third of Eastern Ukrainians want to secede.

The third biggest shale-gas supply has been recently discovered in the western part, don't think uncle Putin is short on ambition when it comes to that. Let him have it I say. There are some really dubious characters in western-ukraine you shouldn't even consider calling an ambulance for.

[Husar]

So you're saying OWG already exists, controlling both Russia and the US, and all this controversy and conflict is a show to distract the sheeple?

No, not really, I thought of it in a more abstract way but I'm not good at thinking or communicating.

[Brenus]

“That sounds like an ethnically based society to me, and France only has a "Civil Contract" because after the Revolution you forcibly suppressed ethnic difference in favour of a society modelled on the culture of the Ille de France.”
Well I understand now. If you have the same level of understanding of the French Revolution that you have of the Ukrainian situation I understand you are missing something…

[Fragony]

No, not really, I thought of it in a more abstract way but I'm not good at thinking or communicating.

Well yeah, you never saw the greater pictcure of what was pretty obvious. But quality media provided me just fine, thx. At least admit it when you have been terribly terribly wrong. Insert here [here].

[Sarmatian]

Kiev started a military operation against protesters in the east. Several killed and injured.

Tanks have been noticed around Slavyansk and army took control of an airfield between Kramatorsk and Slavyansk.

[Husar]

Well yeah, you never saw the greater pictcure of what was pretty obvious. But quality media provided me just fine, thx. At least admit it when you have been terribly terribly wrong. Insert here [here].

Ok, I admit that I was wrong about the OWG and it does indeed exist and is in full control of both the USA and Russia.

[Sarmatian]

I just love that according to the White House, batons used against protesters were enough to impose sanctions on Ukraine, while now, tanks, armoured vehicles and gunships are "measured" response...

Who's crazy in this situation, I don't know anymore...