Late Term Abortion

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

If the child can survive outside of the womb, even with help, it is a human. Just because it needs a bit of help does not mean its life is worth less, just like many of us outside of the womb need medical attention to survive.




Child: Hi, I'm Jenny. I'm only 5 months along in the womb.

Doctor grabs feet.

Jenny: Oh, I guess they want me out now. Yay! I can't wait to see the exciting world outside after hearing all the funny noises!

Doctor pulls Jennifer halfway out of the vagina, so the head remains inside.

Jenny: Hi! I'm ready! Why are you waiting? I'm hungry and I want to meet my mommy.

Doctor sticks scissors into the back of Jenny's head, spreads them open to widen the hole, and then sticks a vacuum inside to suck her brains out.



Jenny could have felt the warm sun on her face and enjoyed the rich fragrance of flowers in her yard. Jenny could have watched ants crawling on the ground and she could have loved swimming in the local lake with her friends. She could have fallen in love. Jenny could have been a loving mother and pursued a successful career. She may have been a proud grandmother and she may have died after a long and fulfilling life, watching her own children and grandchildren enjoy the things she so enjoyed.

Or Jenny might have had down syndrom, in which case despite her disability she still would have had much to be excited about as she began each new day.

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Holy Christ man.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

We moan over the few thousand who have been killed in Iraq, while countless more are taken from us every year via late -term abortion. And all for convience.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

I would expect a bit of understanding towards my statement, given my background. No one can make a reasonable argument that I discount the sacrifice of my country's greatest citizens.


I will admit to a poor choice of words on my part. Allow me to clarify.

Comparing the tragedy of troop deaths in Iraq against the number of late term abortions provides a picture of just how severe the abortion problem is. 3,000 lives have been lost in this war and a near number of viable human lives are murdered annually via late term abortion. These numbers are lost on an apathetic population who is almost entirely fed the information they rely upon for political perspective.


I believe that better articulates my intent.

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Thank you for the clarification, DA, and allow me to apologise for my unwarranted condemnation.

I read your original statement as if you were considering the many thousands of civilian deaths in Iraq as somehow less important than the aborted foetuses.

It was a crass misunderstanding on my part, more telling of my own prejudices. I should have considered the quality of the man posting, and I apologise again.

:bow:

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Holy Christ man.

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Do you refute his post or see his point? Why not talk about what happens in these procedures. How about when these abortion don't work and they throw away the still living fetus NOT ATTAChED TO THE MOTHER in trash cans to die slowly. You should hear some of the testomony given by nurses at the "clinics". It makes you understand why mankind is doomed. This world is so screwed when people can compare the fetus of a cow to that of a human being and not see the difference. Oh well, lets get back to disagreeing for the sake of posturing our moral superiorities... for or against, it doesn't matter. My wife won't ever have one and I'm thankful my mom didn't make the "choice". Thats as far as I care about the issue anymore. Its a pointless subject and one that will NEVER find compremise. Sorry DA, the cat's out of the bag, the abortion things just peachy and soooo liberating for these irresponsible chicks (here comes the 50.000 posts about rape, incest, etc) that you won't be able to capture in their minds what you're trying to show them. Hmmm, let me see...

Here we go, abortion causes global warming.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Here we go, abortion causes global warming.

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Thats nonsense, as we all know that global warming is caused by piracy.

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Originally Posted by Wakizashi

Thats nonsense, as we all know that global warming is caused by piracy.

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I'm almost certain it's lack of piracy that causes global warming, not the other way round.
:pirate2:

Ajax

Life begins at conception. I find it odd how people try to put forth the arguement that the baby cant live on its own. The old the sick the dying all cant take care of themselves yet we do it for them. I guarntee you that if you stopped feeding a 6 month and Gam Gam tommrow they would die. People to often take the most basic things and complicate them to seven shades of gray. What happens a sperm and an egg combine? A baby simple as that. A child is the end result.

You made the decison to have sex and all thart it entalis just like drugs or alcohol or skydiving there are risks involved even if the pill and rubbers are part of the equation. Then of course the arguement comes up that its such a hard decison and one I could never understand. Im sure allot of murderes thevies pedophilies and AAA members regeret there decsions to however that doesnt excuse there actions. To me a woman who gets an abortion is the same as a man who runs out on his young kids. They are nothing but spineless cowards who hide behind our "enlightened pricples" I dont care if you're ready or not you made the choice and you must now live with it you must have the baby. You can put it up for adoption but you must give it life. Personal responsibilty and dececy are hard things to come by in this day and age. No one seems to take any responsibilty and no one ever seems to lend a hand.

Of course I will be labled as someone who simply doesnt "get it" but I dont care anymore. People want to make themselves feel smart and important so they feel as if every issue they take aside must be this facet of paradoxes and exceptions when the truth is staring them right in the face and thats just not with abortion thats with everything even life itself. :thumbsdown:

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Life begins at conception. I find it odd how people try to put forth the arguement that the baby cant live on its own. The old the sick the dying all cant take care of themselves yet we do it for them. I guarntee you that if you stopped feeding a 6 month and Gam Gam tommrow they would die. People to often take the most basic things and complicate them to seven shades of gray. What happens a sperm and an egg combine? A baby simple as that. A child is the end result.

You made the decison to have sex and all thart it entalis just like drugs or alcohol or skydiving there are risks involved even if the pill and rubbers are part of the equation. Then of course the arguement comes up that its such a hard decison and one I could never understand. Im sure allot of murderes thevies pedophilies and AAA members regeret there decsions to however that doesnt excuse there actions. To me a woman who gets an abortion is the same as a man who runs out on his young kids. They are nothing but spineless cowards who hide behind our "enlightened pricples" I dont care if you're ready or not you made the choice and you must now live with it you must have the baby. You can put it up for adoption but you must give it life. Personal responsibilty and dececy are hard things to come by in this day and age. No one seems to take any responsibilty and no one ever seems to lend a hand.

Of course I will be labled as someone who simply doesnt "get it" but I dont care anymore. People want to make themselves feel smart and important so they feel as if every issue they take aside must be this facet of paradoxes and exceptions when the truth is staring them right in the face and thats just not with abortion thats with everything even life itself. :thumbsdown:

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Yet again, out of such raw language comes the complete and utter truth. :bow:

Oh joy a Redneck convention...

Sperm = Egg = Baby... Hmmmm. Here states 1 in 4 ends in miscarriage all by itself. Isn't that in fact greater than the number of intentional abortions?

And just to reiterate: a 10 week pregnancy has a 100% chance of dying out of the uterus, as does a 15 week. By 20 weeks we're getting close to getting a living creature some of the time.

I know that nothing will alter these views - especially with the "interesting" examples that are lumped together in the post. Luckily in developed societies these are in the minority.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

[...]I find it odd how people try to put forth the argument that the baby cant live on its own. [...]

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I can only speak for my immediate surrounding, but this is an important part of the very definition of abortion. It is clearly stated here that a termination of a pregnancy can be called an abortion only if the fetus is not capable of living outside the womb. It is also stated that fetus is the definition as long as it is inside the womb, from its conceivment until its birth.

In most nations of Europe, the woman can choose to take an abortion up until 12 weeks of her pregnancy. Some of the more liberal nations, up until 24 weeks. But there is no nation that allows a voluntary termination of a pregnancy after 24 weeks in Europe.
In Spain, abortion is only allowed up until 12 weeks if the woman was raped.
There is also a consensus that the point where a fetus can live outside the womb is somewhere between 22 - 28 weeks, but that it vary from pregnancy to pregnancy.

In Norway if a fetus is born but dead, it will enter the census as child, dead upon birth if it was 28 weeks or more. The mother can receive child support from the state if the fetus was 26 weeks.

When it comes to methods of abortion, the gruesome picture given by DA is not legal. In the law it states that abortions after 12 weeks will be by the mother going into forced labor.
Abortions between 12 and 18 weeks is only allowed if a board consisting of medical personnel agrees.
Abortions after 18 weeks if it can be determined that the child will survive outside the womb will never be allowed.

Back to my first statement... what to call it when the fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb when you can't call it an abortion?
I can't find a definition for it. :shame:

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

Back to my first statement... what to call it when the fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb when you can't call it an abortion?
I can't find a definition for it. :shame:

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mur·der

–noun 1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

I like this one, but this leaves the opening for "when is it a human" argument, but the bit about definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation :idea2:

2. Slang. something extremely difficult or perilous: That final exam was murder!
3. a group or flock of crows.
–verb (used with object) 4. Law. to kill by an act constituting murder.
5. to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.

I like this one too, but I'm one of those silly idealists that think once it has a heartbeat its alive :thumbsup:

6. to spoil or mar by bad performance, representation, pronunciation, etc.: The tenor murdered the aria.
–verb (used without object) 7. to commit murder.

So dont be bashful Sigurd, most of us have thick skin from being through the manusha here at the org over the years, if you think its murder its okay, you arent alone. :flowers:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Oh joy a Redneck convention...

Sperm = Egg = Baby... Hmmmm. Here states 1 in 4 ends in miscarriage all by itself. Isn't that in fact greater than the number of intentional abortions?
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A miscarraige is a bit more natural than using a surgeon to scrape out a baby from its mother's womb. How is this a "redneck convention"? Would you like to call your opinion the "baby-murderer" position?:no:

oh, you're referring to a surgical abortion?
A Medical abortion is almost identical to a miscarriage as it causes the cell sac to die and hence is expelled. A morning after pill merely prevents implantation.

I suppose a "redneck" would call if a "baby murderer" position, but given their poor understanding of the medicine behind the event it would not be something I'd loose sleep over.

~:smoking:

Hey guys, let's not get another thread locked because of, um, bad manners. A 'redneck' versus 'baby-killer' debate will not convince anyone. And those who think that strong feelings are best served or expressed by strong language or blatant disdain are even less convincing.

And mind you, this is Grumpy speaking. That's gotta count for sumtin.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Hey guys, let's not get another thread locked because of, um, bad manners. A 'redneck' versus 'baby-killer' debate will not convince anyone. And those who think that strong feelings are best served or expressed by strong language or blatant disdain are even less convincing.

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They started it!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

:wink:

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Originally Posted by CountArach

They started it!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

:wink:

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'They' always do. :laugh4:

Let's face it - when can you remember anyone altering position when they start out with the "life is from conception" / "a baby is only from birth"? You might get some altering the weeks they feel it should be allowed, or other extenuating criteria, but apart from that the line is drawn, both sides have dug in and both sides just shell the other for effect.

And considering I've made decisions that have ended lives of pregnancies and the elderly well it's part and parcel of being a Doctor.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Let's face it - when can you remember anyone altering position when they start out with the "life is from conception" / "a baby is only from birth"? You might get some altering the weeks they feel it should be allowed, or other extenuating criteria, but apart from that the line is drawn, both sides have dug in and both sides just shell the other for effect.

And considering I've made decisions that have ended lives of pregnancies and the elderly well it's part and parcel of being a Doctor.

~:smoking:

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You are so right. But staying with the facts like Sigurd does, without innuendo or slurs, is quite effective. I actually learn things from it, and God knows I've been-there-done-this twenty times since I joined the .Org.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

both sides have dug in and both sides just shell the other for effect.

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Agreed; this debate is going nowhere.

In Europe the issue is already resolved and in the US it isn't going to be until both sides admit the need to compromise.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

You are so right. But staying with the facts like Sigurd does, without innuendo or slurs, is quite effective. I actually learn things from it, and God knows I've been-there-done-this twenty times since I joined the .Org.

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Plying Devil's advocate: the majority of us know the basics, and if we wanted to learn how either a surgical or medical TOP is performed we could; facts do not change views on a topic in essence divided by beliefs - as all the other threads have proved.

So since strategic lines are drawn the whole topic generally becomes a chance to blow off some steam at others :thumbsup:

Gun thread anyone? :soapbox:

~:smoking:

Divinus Arma, do you have a similar statistic(reasons for late term abortion) from more recently? Some of those percentages just don't sit well with me.:no:

At 16 weeks a fetus has eyelids, a heartbeat, blood cells, liver, lungs, a rough brain, fingers, and a human shape. It is morally messed up in my opinion to say that killing a fetus at this stage is okay.

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Originally Posted by woad&fangs

At 16 weeks a fetus has eyelids, a heartbeat, blood cells, liver, lungs, a rough brain, fingers, and a human shape. It is morally messed up in my opinion to say that killing a fetus at this stage is okay.

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I agree with you, for me it wouldnt be an option but I stop at imposing my belief on someone else. That, in essence is my big gripe with the U.S. current legal fooling around in abortion. Groups percieve their moral position to have been justified or subjegated by the governments meddling in the personal choices of its citizenry. Just because you and I feel a certain way, dosent make us right.

Both extremes in the abortion debate are illogical and unsupportable. "Life begins at conception" has serious holes in it, and in application quickly becomes unworkable. Note that the rhythm method, the only form of birth control approved by the Catholic Church, works by causing fertilized eggs to spontaneously abort. If the "life begins at conception" crowd believe what they say, then the Catholic Church is guilty of encouraging mass murder. Since the "life begins at conception" people are often Catholics, the cognitive dissonance is immediate and obvious.

On the other hand, the people who claim that a fetus is not human until fully born have painted themselves into a corner. "Life" is very hard to define, but a fetus one week from birth clearly meets the criteria.

As Poor Bloody Infantry pointed out, a logical compromise has been modeled by Europe, but due to Roe v. Wade, we are not free to make such an arrangement here. Honestly, I think Roe was the worst possible thing that could happen to both the pro-life and pro-choice camps. By creating a winner-take-all environment it really poisoned the debate.

If Roe Vs Wade was to be repealed what would happen ?

would things just return to how they were previously ?

Im assuming before it was done on a state by state basis within similar limits to those currently in Europe, before Roe Vs Wade occured was this issue so big in US, im guessing they wasn't the huge pro choice pro life groups there are today....... what annoys me so much as well is that this issue is a single vote issue for so many voters!! what a waste!

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Originally Posted by Lemur

As Poor Bloody Infantry pointed out, a logical compromise has been modeled by Europe, but due to Roe v. Wade, we are not free to make such an arrangement here. Honestly, I think Roe was the worst possible thing that could happen to both the pro-life and pro-choice camps. By creating a winner-take-all environment it really poisoned the debate.

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Interesting take. In an earlier thread I already referred to Woodward's The Abortion Papers to show how arbitrary a compromise Roe v. Wade really was, just like abortion law in any other country by the way. But the Supreme Court had to decide something, right? It's the American system that forced the SC to 'legislate by dictum'. So Lemur - could they have reached another solution, or am I just missing the whole point here? Please elaborate if you will. :bow:

Well, I am not a lawyer, as the kids on Slashdot would say, so I'm not qualified to give a nuanced legal opinion. But from a prosimian point of view, Roe v. Wade was no sort of compromise at all, was it? It defined abortion as a right, full stop, without limits or constraints. By Supreme Court standards it was an extremely broad decision.

Personally, I think abortion is a classic case of one person's rights coming into conflict with another's, complicated by the fact that no thoughtful person can give a hard-and-fast rule for where exactly in the zygote->blastocyst->embryo->fetus chain a human being becomes a human being. To say that every fertilized egg is a human being is thoughtless and unconsidered. To deny the humanity of an eight- or nine-month fetus is barbaric, as Divinus Arma so dramatically points out.

Certainly the Supreme Court could have come to a more limited ruling -- they do that all the time. They could have defended Roe's ability to have an abortion without defining it as a universal right, which is where a lot of this trouble originates.

If abortion were not classified as a right, we would be having a much more interesting debate, and compromises would be sorted out state-by-state. And I do not believe that abortion would go away, far from it. As I said earlier in the thread, technology will someday accomplish what all of the protests and arguments cannot.

Well technically Roe V wade decision was made under the premise that restricting abortion ran counter to the 14th amendments diddy on due process (identical to the 5th amendment for the most part). It just made it applicable to the state at that time, and thats the problem with Roe V wade, it strikes right at the heart of states rights. I honestly havent reconciled this one completely because the constitution should supercede the state but the 14th amendement as the justification seems to be out of time (given it was written primarily an amendment dealing with slaves).

However Adrian has a point, the system we have mandated they do something, so they defaulted to due process in the constitution, its about as fair a compramise as our system would allow.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

If the child can survive outside of the womb, even with help, it is a human. Just because it needs a bit of help does not mean its life is worth less, just like many of us outside of the womb need medical attention to survive.




Child: Hi, I'm Jenny. I'm only 5 months along in the womb.

Doctor grabs feet.

Jenny: Oh, I guess they want me out now. Yay! I can't wait to see the exciting world outside after hearing all the funny noises!

Doctor pulls Jennifer halfway out of the vagina, so the head remains inside.

Jenny: Hi! I'm ready! Why are you waiting? I'm hungry and I want to meet my mommy.

Doctor sticks scissors into the back of Jenny's head, spreads them open to widen the hole, and then sticks a vacuum inside to suck her brains out.



Jenny could have felt the warm sun on her face and enjoyed the rich fragrance of flowers in her yard. Jenny could have watched ants crawling on the ground and she could have loved swimming in the local lake with her friends. She could have fallen in love. Jenny could have been a loving mother and pursued a successful career. She may have been a proud grandmother and she may have died after a long and fulfilling life, watching her own children and grandchildren enjoy the things she so enjoyed.

Or Jenny might have had down syndrom, in which case despite her disability she still would have had much to be excited about as she began each new day.

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Jenny could have been a psychopath. What's your point?

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Originally Posted by Craterus

Jenny could have been a psychopath. What's your point?

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Or discovered the cure for cancer. What's yours'?:beam:

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Or discovered the cure for cancer. What's yours'?:beam:

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Or she could have led another mediocre life just like everybody else. But, she might have taken the last spot in a school, forcing the next Einstein to go to a worse school in a bad area and get mixed up in the wrong crowd and die of a drug overdose at the age of 18. Gosh, Jenny's a problematic child.

Why do I have to have a point? The whole 'Look what could've happened if not for abortion, woe is me' argument isn't worth much in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

If Roe Vs Wade was to be repealed what would happen ?

would things just return to how they were previously ?

Im assuming before it was done on a state by state basis within similar limits to those currently in Europe, before Roe Vs Wade occured was this issue so big in US, im guessing they wasn't the huge pro choice pro life groups there are today....... what annoys me so much as well is that this issue is a single vote issue for so many voters!! what a waste!

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If Roe vs Wade was overturned then Illegal Abortions would sky-rocket and there would be no protection for mothers who wish for a clean, safe abortion. That said I don't know how things were before it (Or admittedly much about what happens under it now), so feel free to correct me.