Bomb attacks on Brussels airport

There have been more of these incidents (cheering, applauding) but most kids didn't know how serious it was at the time, bit of a nothing

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Originally Posted by Fragony

There have been more of these incidents (cheering, applauding) but most kids didn't know how serious it was at the time, bit of a nothing

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But are people such delicate flowers that reading about it on Facebook causes them to hallucinate it happening in their class? I do not think that people are so afraid of confrontation that they will not tell them off to their face but go crying on Twitter instead.

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Originally Posted by Snowhobbit

But are people such delicate flowers that reading about it on Facebook causes them to hallucinate it happening in their class? I do not think that people are so afraid of confrontation that they will not tell them off to their face but go crying on Twitter instead.

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Police was right to ask him not to post these things, at least for a while. Many wounded will still die, after amazement comes anger

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Police was right to ask him not to post these things, at least for a while. Many wounded will still die, after amazement comes anger

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Yep, it is never a good time to call for hate and anger against minority groups. When a sub-group of that minority group commits horrific crimes is an especially bad time. If anyone gets injured because of these tweets I hope the guy gets charged for incitement to *insert whatever happened*.

"What excuse? Who said poverty is an excuse for murder? Stop making things up." Where did you mentioned poverty? Stop putting words in my mouth.
Poverty, feelings of exclusion/humiliation, lack of future, alienation are reasons for "radicalisation". I went through this as a late teenager/young adult. But I didn't choose to go for a pro-slavery, racist, xenophobe, discriminatory ideology. I went political then I joined the army, where all this anger and streams of violence were used, channelled and finally rested. I am still political, leftist, as I still remember these years and the absolute injustice of the social determination.
But, these criminals never went political. They went petty criminals, most of them (the ones we speak about, not the Bourgeois ones) choosing always the easiest way. Even their final choice was to rely not on the effort of an ascesis, a study of the Holly texts and their interpretation, but a short cut: Killings and suicide to reach a God and the rewards...

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Originally Posted by Brenus

"What excuse? Who said poverty is an excuse for murder? Stop making things up." Where did you mentioned poverty? Stop putting words in my mouth.
Poverty, feelings of exclusion/humiliation, lack of future, alienation are reasons for "radicalisation". I went through this as a late teenager/young adult. But I didn't choose to go for a pro-slavery, racist, xenophobe, discriminatory ideology. I went political then I joined the army, where all this anger and streams of violence were used, channelled and finally rested. I am still political, leftist, as I still remember these years and the absolute injustice of the social determination.
But, these criminals never went political. They went petty criminals, most of them (the ones we speak about, not the Bourgeois ones) choosing always the easiest way. Even their final choice was to rely not on the effort of an ascesis, a study of the Holly texts and their interpretation, but a short cut: Killings and suicide to reach a God and the rewards...

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Trying to find out why someone does something is not the same as trying to excuse that behaviour. A key factor in preventing these things in the future is to stop the radicalization that happens, and to do that we have to figure out why it happens. For example why it did not happen with you or your family but it happened with these men who have mostly blown themselves up.

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Originally Posted by Snowhobbit

Trying to find out why someone does something is not the same as trying to excuse that behaviour. A key factor in preventing these things in the future is to stop the radicalization that happens, and to do that we have to figure out why it happens. For example why it did not happen with you or your family but it happened with these men who have mostly blown themselves up.

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You seem to assume that we are not dealling with a fully-fledged ideoligy, and of course social-economic are also a factor but wouldn't be what I would be looking. People have the tendency to think that everybody thinks like they do themselves, follow the same reasonings. You don't have to disregard social-economic factors to acknowledge an ideoligy.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

You seem to assume that we are not dealling with a fully-fledged ideoligy, and of course social-economic are also a factor but wouldn't be what I would be looking. People have the tendency to think that everybody thinks like they do themselves, follow the same reasonings. You don't have to disregard social-economic factors to acknowledge an ideoligy.

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I'm fully aware that these people are driven by a violent ideology, but the question is why they sign on to that. They are not born murders etc, and it is key that we figure out how to stop the recruitment. Like I posted before, stop Saudi-funded mosques is one thing, but we also have to look at the individuals. I know that in UK there are programs where youth leaders and Imams work together to stop these kids and lead them to better thoughts before it goes too far. Likely a much cheaper and effective way than highly expensive security measures (which might be needed and justified also).

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Originally Posted by Snowhobbit

I'm fully aware that these people are driven by a violent ideology, but the question is why they sign on to that. They are not born murders etc, and it is key that we figure out how to stop the recruitment. Like I posted before, stop Saudi-funded mosques is one thing, but we also have to look at the individuals. I know that in UK there are programs where youth leaders and Imams work together to stop these kids and lead them to better thoughts before it goes too far. Likely a much cheaper and effective way than highly expensive security measures (which might be needed and justified also).

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Works for some. But I am ok with things like this happening from time to time. We should learn from the Mossad and take out dangerous people imho

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Works for some. But I am ok with things like this happening from time to time. We should learn from the Mossad and take out dangerous people imho

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Drone strikes in our cities?

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Originally Posted by Husar

Drone strikes in our cities?

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We are training eagles to take out drones, not kidding. But that apart, I think that high-profile should be seen as agents of something that's hostile. Why should assymatrical warfare exist only in hotspots, seems old-fashioned to me. And I already agree with every objection you have against it in advance so don't bother

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Why should assymatrical warfare exist only in hotspots, seems old-fashioned to me.

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Why should we turn our countries into war zones if there is no need to do so? Seems silly to me.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Why should we turn our countries into war zones if there is no need to do so? Seems silly to me.

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Not warzones, just assasinating key figures

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Originally Posted by Snowhobbit

Trying to find out why someone does something is not the same as trying to excuse that behaviour. A key factor in preventing these things in the future is to stop the radicalization that happens, and to do that we have to figure out why it happens. For example why it did not happen with you or your family but it happened with these men who have mostly blown themselves up.

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You're right of course, cause =/= justification.

Since Charlie Hebdo it's been commonly known that many islamist terrorists have had criminal careers before they became religious thugs. I'd be interested in knowing more about the psychology behind such "conversions". Maybe at some level these people are aware that their violent behaviour is bad. And they're receptive to an ideology that says violence isn't bad at all, at least not when directed against the "other". That they don't need to feel guilty about whatever they did in the past, because the only people who matter are "true muslims".

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

You're right of course, cause =/= justification.

Since Charlie Hebdo it's been commonly known that many islamist terrorists have had criminal careers before they became religious thugs. I'd be interested in knowing more about the psychology behind such "conversions". Maybe at some level these people are aware that their violent behaviour is bad. And they're receptive to an ideology that says violence isn't bad at all, at least not when directed against the "other". That they don't need to feel guilty about whatever they did in the past, because the only people who matter are "true muslims".

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I think in the case of criminals it is more about seeing redemption and salvation, an easy way out of hell and into heaven, with the love and respect of their peers and idols. They are of course also excellent targets, already having shown willingness to use violence to get what they want.

Add to that feeling even more outside of society than most of their neighbours, and the forgiving of past sins and promise of heaven might be very appealing to the right person.

Once read the term atonement by proxy, was not in this context though. What everybody says about anyone probably applies for some. But it's a much easier licence to kill

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Not warzones, just assasinating key figures

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How would one go about that?
Make a law that says the government can assassinate citizens if the government thinks they are a threat to society?
And how do we assassinate the key figures we don't even know about?
And if we already know about them, why don't we just arrest them as that would not require any changes whatsoever?
And doesn't that already happen all the time?

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Originally Posted by Husar

How would one go about that?
Make a law that says the government can assassinate citizens if the government thinks they are a threat to society?
And how do we assassinate the key figures we don't even know about?
And if we already know about them, why don't we just arrest them as that would not require any changes whatsoever?
And doesn't that already happen all the time?

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Told you I would agree with your objections, you are right on all

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Originally Posted by Snowhobbit

Was my estimation of what Zhirinovsky said correct? And who are they?

Scoring cheap domestic points on a foreign tragedy is sadly all too common, and can especially be expected of a Russia which has decided to try to reclaim its former super-power status. Fortunately there are more sane and level-headed politicians, such as the Moscow Mayor and Mr Putin himself.

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If you are really interested in Zhirinovsky you can avail yourself of the opportunities internet provides. He is like a revved up version of Trump. But to completely disregard his looney ideas and statements would be wrong. Putin tolerates him to have him as a contrast to himself as if saying: "See what nutjobs may come to power if I step down?" Plus Zhirinovsky's statements and escapades serve as a kind of probing action - to see how the public would react and whether it is worth to proceed in this direction.

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Originally Posted by Snowhobbit

Taking a broader view, more international cooperation against terrorism is needed to stop the mindless violence which strikes all over the world. Russia, Asian countries and not the least the Arab world which is the main financier of this madness.

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You are deeply mistaken if you believe that Europe can put a halter on terrorism WIHTHIN the EU if it enlists the help of any outsiders, still less of Russia. No one can deal with terrorism in Europe except Europe itself.

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

If you are really interested in Zhirinovsky you can avail yourself of the opportunities internet provides. He is like a revved up version of Trump. But to completely disregard his looney ideas and statements would be wrong. Putin tolerates him to have him as a contrast to himself as if saying: "See what nutjobs may come to power if I step down?" Plus Zhirinovsky's statements and escapades serve as a kind of probing action - to see how the public would react and whether it is worth to proceed in this direction.



You are deeply mistaken if you believe that Europe can put a halter on terrorism WIHTHIN the EU if it enlists the help of any outsiders, still less of Russia. No one can deal with terrorism in Europe except Europe itself.

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No thanks all the same, I read about enough crazies just keeping up with politics which actually impacts my life, don't follow Trump nonsense either.

Oh? And here I thought terror networks were international things which different intelligence agencies can all gather Intel on, that occasionally Russia bombed them a couple of weeks ago, and that with the loss of a passenger jet Russia might be motivated to hate ISIS on a personal level. But you are of course right, terrorism is exclusively a European issue and will forever only be a European issue.

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

If you are really interested in Zhirinovsky you can avail yourself of the opportunities internet provides. He is like a revved up version of Trump. But to completely disregard his looney ideas and statements would be wrong. Putin tolerates him to have him as a contrast to himself as if saying: "See what nutjobs may come to power if I step down?" Plus Zhirinovsky's statements and escapades serve as a kind of probing action - to see how the public would react and whether it is worth to proceed in this direction.

You are deeply mistaken if you believe that Europe can put a halter on terrorism WIHTHIN the EU if it enlists the help of any outsiders, still less of Russia. No one can deal with terrorism in Europe except Europe itself.

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The main problem is that the problematic culture vigorously maintains a link with the outside version, and holds the outside version as the purer form to be aspired to. While the outside version progressively becomes crazier and crazier. It has a somewhat naive view of how things may be resolved, but Pratchett's Thud! is an accurate portrayal of the problem as it exists in the UK, and is probably recognisable to other European countries as well.

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Originally Posted by Snowhobbit

Oh? And here I thought terror networks were international things which different intelligence agencies can all gather Intel on, that occasionally Russia bombed them a couple of weeks ago, and that with the loss of a passenger jet Russia might be motivated to hate ISIS on a personal level. But you are of course right, terrorism is exclusively a European issue and will forever only be a European issue.

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I never claimed terrorism was exclusively a European issue. I said that those terroristic attacks that happened in Europe are performed by the EU citizens, so dealing with them is what European countries should learn to do. If you think that Russia can help to sort things out in Muslim suburbs of European capitals then :shrug: Or do you mean that Russia can order its tame European terrorists to stop bombings in exchange for concessions in Ukraine or elsewhere? :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

I never claimed terrorism was exclusively a European issue. I said that those terroristic attacks that happened in Europe are performed by the EU citizens, so dealing with them is what European countries should learn to do. If you think that Russia can help to sort things out in Muslim suburbs of European capitals then :shrug: Or do you mean that Russia can order its tame European terrorists to stop bombings in exchange for concessions in Ukraine or elsewhere? :inquisitive:

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It is my understanding the the FSB (or whatever it is they are called now, formerly KGB) is a somewhat large and well-funded organization with experience on dealing with terrorism. There might be both lessons to learn (such as don't gas a hostage scene and not tell the medical respondents what you use), information gathered on targets or terror cells, etc, etc. Not to mention that I believe they were in Syria recently dropping bombs? I presume Russian bombs can also kill terrorists. I do not believe that Europe should engage in concessions for Crimea in turn for our own needs. But I do believe that terrorism is a global problem and that it requires global cooperation to be stamped out as the threat it is today, worldwide.

Just for musing, you find the terrorist who was involved. In his safehouse you find explosives, weapons and detonaters.

You A, understand that safehouses are used by multiple persons.
You B, don't understand that and think questioning for an hour is sufficient.

Guess what option the Belgium police picked

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Just for musing, you find the terrorist who was involved. In his safehouse you find explosives, weapons and detonaters.

You A, understand that safehouses are used by multiple persons.
You B, don't understand that and think questioning for an hour is sufficient.

Guess what option the Belgium police picked

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Just for musing, Fragony finds a story on a bungled up government action.

Will he A, provide a source for the screw-up.
Will he B, not provide a source, if called on it claim that since it is from unreliable blogs nobody will believe it anyway, and then proceed to discuss the story as the gospel of truth it is.

You add a lot of interesting things to thread, it would be cool if you could source them. Still waiting on info about those 6 billion Euros to Turkey being used to fund their arms industry.

http://www.politico.eu/article/belgi...error-attacks/

There are more screwups, one big clusterfuck

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Originally Posted by Fragony

http://www.politico.eu/article/belgi...error-attacks/

There are more screwups, one big clusterfuck

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Yeah, Belgium makes everyone else look like professionals. Thanks for the article, it was a good read mostly confirming things read elsewhere about their lack of coordination.

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Originally Posted by Snowhobbit

Just for musing, Fragony finds a story on a bungled up government action.

Will he A, provide a source for the screw-up.
Will he B, not provide a source, if called on it claim that since it is from unreliable blogs nobody will believe it anyway, and then proceed to discuss the story as the gospel of truth it is.

You add a lot of interesting things to thread, it would be cool if you could source them. Still waiting on info about those 6 billion Euros to Turkey being used to fund their arms industry.

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What's bad if Turkey uses the money for it's arms industry?

I am Turkish, that's how it caught my attention that you talk like Turkey doesn't have weapons now, and may use the money to buy some Kalashnikov's and Uzi's.

(Not trying do defend something because it's m country, just found it kind of hillarious :D)

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Originally Posted by Yesugey

What's bad if Turkey uses the money for it's arms industry?

I am Turkish, that's how it caught my attention that you talk like Turkey doesn't have weapons now, and may use the money to buy some Kalashnikov's and Uzi's.

(Not trying do defend something because it's m country, just found it kind of hillarious :D)

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Well, since you are from Turkey I'm sure this has escaped your notice. Your country is run by a would be dictator madman who likes to kill and blow up his own people. In Europe we generally view this as "bad" and thus it would not be good if our money funded murder sprees. I've read your posts before, you pretty much only defend something if your country does it.

Money which is supposed to be used to improve life in the refugee camps is best used there, not murdering your own citizens.

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Originally Posted by Snowhobbit

Well, since you are from Turkey I'm sure this has escaped your notice. Your country is run by a would be dictator madman who likes to kill and blow up his own people. In Europe we generally view this as "bad" and thus it would not be good if our money funded murder sprees. I've read your posts before, you pretty much only defend something if your country does it.

Money which is supposed to be used to improve life in the refugee camps is best used there, not murdering your own citizens.

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You didn't answered my question at all.

Turkey is ruled by a mad idiot but he doesn't blow up people. (Actually he is incapable of it)
In Europe you only view blowing up European people as "bad", and support terrorism directly if it blows up others. (Poor Belgium was chosen as the heart of it, which made it vulnerable.)

And as you can read from my posts, I would defend anything "when" my country does it. I am so evil, don't bother deny anything.

But again, these all are not related with my question. I already know what you think. "Turkey is ISIS, oh my God terrorists at Belgium killed Europeans this time, how evil is this!!" bla bla bla...

So forget all about it. My question is:

Turkey already has hundreds of aircraft and tanks, about to produce it's national tank and helicopter. Turkey might even have several atomic bombs left from cold war. How do you think few million more Euros makes a difference?.. It's kind of hillarious :D