https://affes.wordpress.com/tag/mordforsok/Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I guess you are right.
No. Wait. You are absolutely lunatic. :dizzy2:
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https://affes.wordpress.com/tag/mordforsok/Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I guess you are right.
No. Wait. You are absolutely lunatic. :dizzy2:
HT takes a logical but detached position on this. I favour Kad's hands on experience. Not necessarily because he would not have been mugged back in the 1980s, but because he remembers a time when people did not lock their doors and they had no beggars, much less pickpockets and thieves roaming around.
I've lived in Cyprus for a year, the Greek part of it. I don't know about murder statistics - they will probably be skewed because Limassol is the centre of operations for the Russian mafia there. I do know that people don't lock their cars and rarely lock their gates and doors, and that the only ones who steal citrus fruit from the gardens of their neighbors are dirty immigrants (like myself. We were poor students, life was hard). Granted, we only took a few lemons for the tequila shots, but it was theft nevertheless.
If someone tells me now that people in Cyprus are afraid to go out after dark and that they started locking their cars and putting chains on their scooters, I'd say the crime rate has gone way up, even if relatively the same number of people got killed per year.
So you both need to look into each other's arguments a bit IMO.
Something funny. A Roma kid is being offered 5 euro if he can name capitals of countries. It's in bulgarian/turkish/roma languages but it's worth a watch. Kid knows his geography! TBH I would have failed at Switzerland, i'd have said Neuchatel probably instead of Bern. Shows how much I know.
I would have thought the biggest mistake would be Geneva, perhaps maybe Zurich. I would have never even suggested Neuchatel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
Hahahahaha. Oh dear, oh dear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
First of all, I thought we agreed to only link to BRÅ and not to some "extremist blogger"? My blog at least linked back to BRÅ to show what they based their article on. Your blog? Nothing.
Secondly, the supposed "master statistician"(you) show a fatal misconception when it comes to statistics. Graphs are only interesting when they are accompanied by text. on its own, a graph is worthless. The text is what matters, the graphs are only included to visualize the text.
So, here's what an actual link from BRÅ says about the supposed increase in violence:
(my bolding)Quote:
Årligen drabbas omkring 2–3 procent av Sveriges befolkning
av någon form av misshandel, enligt de större offerundersökningarna. Totalt sett har det under 2000-talet vare sig skett någon minskning eller ökning av andelen utsatta för misshandel.
Mellan 2000 och 3000 personer skrivs varje år in på sjukhusens
slutenvårdsavdelningar för skador orsakade av misshandel eller
ännu grövre våldsbrott. Trots stabila nivåer av misshandel enligt offerundersökningar och sjukhusdata de senaste 15–20 åren,
har antalet anmälningar om misshandel ökat kraftigt. Viktiga
förklaringar till det är enligt forskningen nya arbetssätt och rutiner inom polisen, samt en allmänt ökad uppmärksamhet på,
och en minskad tolerans mot, våldsbrott. Trots att alltfler misshandelsbrott anmäls är dock mörkertalet för brotten fortfarande högt.
So, BRÅ states clearly that there has been no increase in the type of crime you were exposed to. Have fun.
I've got some anecdotes as well, if you prefer that. Some years ago, I worked for Securitas, a security guard company. Now, before Kad goes all "Norway is different to Sweden!!111": this was at Holmlia, a suburb to the east of Oslo with a very high share of immigrants. It's routinely referred to as a ghetto, and with all the doom&gloom cries of increasing crime, you would expect it to be sky-high. And indeed, crime rates there are among the highest in the country.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
Now, securitas classifies the businesses(like gas stations) they protect according to the frequency of robberies. The highest level of this classification are the "very high risk" spots, and there are quite few of those.
Now, what does it take to be classified as a high risk business? With all the cries of doom&gloom, you would expect it to be at least a robbery every year to get to the highest level....
But no, 2 robberies in a decade, and you get that classification.
What you're talking about is a change in the perception of the level of crime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
I see no reason to care about peoples perceptions.
Look at the clear numbers HT. stop with political articles.
Your own source there just said that reported assault have gone massively UP. Do you read it being the same or better than before?
My source use raw data. He also clearly states where the numbers are from. That blog is absolutely not extremist, it's just an avid statician presenting data.
But I guess you hate reality. No?
Ahahahahahahaha.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
No, those are not the "raw numbers" of assaults taking places. Those are the raw numbers of assaults being reported to the cops. Which, by the way, is a distinction your disingenuous source doesn't mention.
If the increase in reported assaults equal an actual increase in assaults taking place, we would see an increase of assaults being reported on questionnaires and, even more so, in the number of people sent to the hospital.
BRÅ has checked both, and observed that the numbers there are stable. Thus, there is nothing else to do than conclude that the the increase in the number of reported assaults means that society has started to report these crimes to the police more often.
If you want to challenge this, you would have to look for evidence like people treating their broken bones at home. I do not expect you to find much.
Bad science and a lack of reasoning skills remains a hallmark of right-wing ideologies.
EDIT: By the way, your blog says this on its about-page:
"Avid statistician", indeed.Quote:
Jag är ingen statistiker
Kadagar, have you moved since your childhood?
I'm asking, because it's not hard to find areas that fits your childhood memories today and it's not hard to find areas that would beat it to a bloody pulp in 1980.
Some changes are certainly general though, like outright street begging isn't that old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Fixed that for you.
If you think there is less skewing of facts on one side of the political spectrum than on the other it is only your personal bias.
It is only that the dominant viewpoint prefers to report on the dirty laundry of the other side than look at their own fallacies and misconceptions.
Native Americans were on the short end of a whole bunch of techno/cultural value issues that set them up for a fall. Throw in a virgin field epidemic starting in the early 1500s and they never stood a chance. Different era, different mores.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
On the whole though, aside from those who were sent here as property, ethnic groups of various creeds and colors manage pretty well in the USA. Far from perfect, of course, and we have our nativist naysayers along with our "embrace newcomers" inclusives. So far, the overall result has been pretty good and a little mutt like.
I have just remembered.
Papa said that during his childhood the done thing was to see Laps as scum. Has Sweden progressed in hating black people like everyone else - or looking askance at them, at least?
You'll always have an out-group and that out-group will always prey on the weak or unwarry of the in-group.
Papa also said that in the US, 30 years ago, Indians appeared to be viewed the way Gypsies are in Europe.
His conclusion was that this is because people in the US met bad Indians and Swedes met bad Laps, now everyone meets bad Gypsies.
As always, Papa's wisdom is boundless - if a little blinkered.
My thoughts are with you Kad and I hope you make a full and speedy recovery. The regulars here can attest that I have not been kind with hearing Kad's arguments on race, but to dismiss his assault and call names is absolutely tactless regardless of his opinions derived from the matter. I am not the best person to be condemning angry name calling, but unacceptable behavior is unacceptable.
That being said, nostalgia for the past prays strongly on anyone dissatisfied with the present. For the US and other Western countries, crime rates peaked in the 1990s and have been declining ever since. At least in the case for the US, the ramp up of the War on Drugs and the start of incarceration on a truly massive scale makes the suggestion that lower numbers = everything is better now that we have more immigrants than ever, a very simple and ill thought out talking point and nothing more.
Race has nothing to do with it. It comes down to class and culture. Both of which are managed and cultivated through proper immigration control. By only accepting those who bring value (i.e, they posses skills, education) to the country, you reduce the risk of immigrants forming ghettos or otherwise lower socioeconomic blocks within urban areas. Through interviews and tight quotas you can limit those coming in to be the individuals who are more susceptible to assimilation then an individual who is only migrating to seek jobs that are nowhere to be found in his home country.
In order for multiculturalism to work you either go about it the US way, or the proper way. In the US, there was a long tradition of disrespect towards the Catholics and the Eastern Europeans and the Southern Europeans that assimilation was necessary if you wanted to survive. Learn English or we spit on you as you walk out the door. These conditions not surprisingly caused much violence between different ethnicities among urban areas where the ratio of available jobs to workers was smaller and highly sought after. The proper way is to be open and welcoming and respectful of all who come into the country, but making sure that those who do enter pass the test, which must be rigorous and to a high standard. The current European method of promoting openness while enforcing small standards on who enters is a recipe for disaster and only serves to generate a resentment to be exploited by right wing radicals.
One more thing: Kadagar, what you said about the inflation of the terms slut and whore, don't you think there's an other trend at work here? The fact that (hardcore) pornography has become so much more accepted over the last 20 or so years, due to which the perception of women (in general) has become so much more negative?
Far less accepted I'd say. Even mainstream movies used to have obligitary sex-scenes, porn used to be on the shelves at the supermarket, even kiddie-porn in the seventies if I must believe someone on Geenstijl who insists it was just for sale, I don't know if that's true, before my time. Soft-porn also used to be very normal on tv after nine. I see quite the opposite trend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Watched any HBO lately...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I don't have tv here, but it was (here at least) very normal to have soft-porn on tv. Funnily enough most on FOX, that should amuse you. In the series of HBO that I have seen there is sex in at least yeah. But if you look at the films from the nineties and the eighties there is almost always a sex-scene, seems to be completily absent in Hollywood productions nowadays. In general I would disagree with Haxie that there is a trend towards more erotism, hardcore or softcore. Quite the opposite really.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Post made in context of looking differently at women.
I think we can say that there is less sex in action movies...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
But I wouldn't agree that the terms "slut" and "whore" have changed to more conservative terms. I would say they have turned into everyday terms now, like the terms "stupid" or "dumbass". Ie. terms frequently said between friends as signs of affection as opposed to ill will. The scenario where one girl will jokingly call another girl "whore" without any ill intent is very common, starting around age 13.
Quote:
Far less accepted I'd say. Even mainstream movies used to have obligitary sex-scenes, porn used to be on the shelves at the supermarket, even kiddie-porn in the seventies if I must believe someone on Geenstijl who insists it was just for sale, I don't know if that's true, before my time. Soft-porn also used to be very normal on tv after nine. I see quite the opposite trend.
Note: I'm not talking about whether or not (softcore) pornography has become more accepted on the TV, I'm talking exclusively about the internet here.Quote:
In general I would disagree with Haxie that there is a trend towards more erotism, hardcore or softcore. Quite the opposite really.
Just because there might be a taboo on discussing (hardcore) pornography in public doesn't mean that -- in the last twenty or so years -- the availability of such kind of pornography has rapidly become much more available. I don't think there's any 16-year old boy that hasn't browsed online pornography, and the depiction of women is far from positive. I think that if you want to look towards an answer on why it's become more socially acceptable to call girls "sluts" and "whores", I would sooner look at the depiction of women in media, rather than blaming Arab, African, or Islamic cultures.
I have pet names for all my friends male and females, for my female friends (sorry non-dutchies) Lellebel, madammeke, my gay friends ouwe natte of rugridder, whatever seems funny at the time. But I don't call them sluts or whores, of kankerflikker. That's what is they hear on the street though, guess by who.
hurr durr arabs are to blame for everything gone wrong the last 30 years
EDIT: Somewhat less outright agressive but equally ironic in tone:
hurr duur white people don't use the term "slut"
Watch 'la femme de rue' and tell me again that it isn't culturally related.
I have seen it. You don't have to tell me that it isn't culturally related, my (blonde-haired) girlfriend stayed with me for a week in Paris and she was harassed several times. I live near Clichy, and she couldn't even go down the street to pick me up from the metro station without being harassed, by (you guessed it) Arabs. I know fully well that there are a lot of things wrong with the way women are treated in Arab culture. So get off it.
What you don't really seem to get is that the way women are perceived and objectified runs much, much deeper than that. Remember when that girl was raped by those teen football or baseball heroes or whatever in the U.S.? They weren't Arab, or Mexican, or whatever. The denigration of women in society -- and I think it's in a large part due to the way women are treated in porn -- goes much deeper than whatever is wrong with whatever foreign culture you dislike.
Consider the fact that a girl can't even put a photograph of herself on some websites without being called a whore. Think about it for a second. Think about what it implies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
As Whore Sven stated, whore might not mean what you think it means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Whore means exactly what it says, I worked with 'whores', I just had to make sure nobody harmed them. They didn't like it to be called one because they worked in the sex-industry, it's really insulting to call someone a whore. It's a really degenerating thing to say. I get kinda infuriated if a women gets called a whore, even if they actually are a whore it isn't very classy.
Edit, I have been a whore by the way, I sometimes did the female clients when I wasn't there for just protecting. Yep, I have an interesting life.
Well, you call me a whore every time you write my nick...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
("Hore" is "whore" in Norwegian)
More than my nick, actually been one. Only females. It's one of the reasons that I don't look down on the profession.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
To English speakers, "whore" carries a negative connotation, but not heavily so. It is used more as a pejorative reference for non-sex workers. When applied to a sex-worker, the term takes on a more descriptive connotation. I have no idea as to the connotations applied in Dutch or Norwegian.
You would be called a gigolo, not a whore. Yet another victory for sexual double standards!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
We just called them girls or ladies, but certainly not whores. It was all really nice really, no harm at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by drone
Edit, I will have a photo gigelo Fragony soon, it just needs to be scanned. We hired a cruise, phots coming.
Frags used to sell teh love?!?!?!?
Wait a second, I have to get popcorns...
.
..
...
....
... Okay, go!
Well yeah, guilty. But I was mainly protection for the girls. Friend of mind is scanning some pics out of the old days, I am on one in full force, you will laugh your ass of if you see it, not a bit wrong but very wrong. We hired a (small) cruise, got a few pics of that one as well. I organised itso I am on some pictures, promise that you won't hold it against me if you see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
I want to be recording. :clown:
You are welcome to ask. It's very cozy really, the harm is not in sexclubs et etc. where things get really cynical is where it isn't really allowed but merely tolerated, nobody takes care of them as it's an accepted grey area. Fix that. I am no longer into this but I can tell you how things work.
As much as I like the rabbid atmosphere of the BR at large, I must admit I met my (very personal) limit here.
I honestly quite like the thing we have going here though, so I obviously don't want any rules changed.
However, I have come to terms with this being the wrong forum for more personal issues.
HT has lost my respect... In a way that I don't see as repairable.
I hope I have, and I sure think I will, treat every member showing a personal side of things with some respect. I might (by all means) flame their position hard, sure. But then I usually follow it up with a PM being more elaborate, to make sure they don't see it as personal. Quite a lot of you have got those over the years.
Thank you all for caring, but I will bow out of this thread, mods please close, would you so mind.
Let's leave it behind us, as it feels like a stain on these otherwise nice boards.