Being assaulted and robbed isn't very much fun at all

[Myth]

Yeap. To put it in perspective, something shady is happening with Syrian refugees on our territory. We were supposed to allow 5000 tops, only to stay for a while. Now we have about 10 times that nubmer and Brussels is already telling us how to integrate them in our society. Why should we? Greece closed off their borders for Syrian refugees. Bulgaria can't. It has to integrate them.

Why does Sweden have to turn into a melting pot and why is your police completely neutered? Same deal.

We have a saying here - "The one eating pie for free isn't crazy. The one giving it for free is." Your government wants the Sweden you live in now.

[HoreTore]

The Sweden I grew up in isn't the Sweden I live in now. And it hasn't changed for the better.

Bollox.

The "Sweden you grew up in" was Sweden at its most violent. Nowadays, it's as peaceful as the 50's.

[Kadagar_AV]

Bollox.

The "Sweden you grew up in" was Sweden at its most violent. Nowadays, it's as peaceful as the 50's.

YOU. MUST. BE. ON. DRUGS.

Nice leftist extremist blog, now go to BRÅ (the stately organ working with crime), violence statistics are shown there.

Heck, even a monkey would get it in a few minutes, so I expect an apology from you in, say, a few hours?

[HoreTore]

YOU. MUST. BE. ON. DRUGS.

Nice leftist extremist blog, now go to BRÅ (the stately organ working with crime)

Here ya go.

A linkie from BRÅ stating the exact same thing.

But have fun with your blind fanaticism.

[Myth]

Can someone translate the jist of it for those of us who don't speak Viking?

[HoreTore]

Can someone translate the jist of it for those of us who don't speak Viking?

Basically:

The number of murders have been relatively stable since the 50's. There was a spike in the early 90's, which has now gone down to "normal" levels again. The largest groups of foreigners committing murders in Sweden are the feared roving gangs of Norwegians and Finns.

While you could blame the 90's spike on immigration, it was over very quickly and now things are back to normal. It would also change the immigrant group in question from Somalis and Afghans(they weren't here back then) to Vietnamese, Pakistanis, Syrians and Kurds.

However, the 90's spike also coincides with the end of the 80's economic boom and the financial crashes afterwards. Hmmm.......

[Kadagar_AV]

Can someone translate the jist of it for those of us who don't speak Viking?

I'll translate.

HT, states that violence has decreased, because less people are murdered these days.

I state that overall violence statistically have increased, but yes, criminals know that murder is one of those crimes where the police really still bother.


Take what happened to me as we're in this thread, they were not out to MURDER me. They were out to physically and mentally harm.

HT believes murder is the only manner to look at violence in a society.

I however note that other violence have gone up, and ascribe the lower murder percentage to everyone now watching CSI, and know they won't easily get away with it. Also modern medicine can save more people that would previously have died.

HT, will not touch any sort of violence statistics as he then get sad in the eye.

I however look at statistics and also have a "hands on" experience.

*OK, so I can jest about it, I think it was Gregoshi-worthy*



EDIT: CSI effect aside, HT also choose to forget that modern medicine can save a lot of lives that would before have been not-so-saved. Also edited it in where it belonged.

Seriously pathetic argument, HT.

[HoreTore]

Nonsense.

Murder is the sole definite crime statistic. We know about all of them. Every other statistic have huge dark figures, and so its usefulness is limited. We know that we only know about a fraction of them.

You can use it for arguing tendencies and such, but you must always be aware that there will be a ton of other explanations for your numbers than the one you choose to go with.

Murder is different. Murder is final.

The only assumption you need to make when it comes to murder, is the assumption that the number of murders in a society is a decent reflection of the level of crime in a country. Since we do not have a tradition of honour killings and such here, this is a reasonable assumption.

For other crimes, you need to make a ton of other assumption for your conclusion, which makes it a lot more uncertain.

[Kadagar_AV]

Nonsense.

Murder is the sole definite crime statistic. We know about all of them. Every other statistic have huge dark figures, and so its usefulness is limited. We know that we only know about a fraction of them.

You can use it for arguing tendencies and such, but you must always be aware that there will be a ton of other explanations for your numbers than the one you choose to go with.

Murder is different. Murder is final.

The only assumption you need to make when it comes to murder, is the assumption that the number of murders in a society is a decent reflection of the level of crime in a country. Since we do not have a tradition of honour killings and such here, this is a reasonable assumption.

For other crimes, you need to make a ton of other assumption for your conclusion, which makes it a lot more uncertain.

So you mean CSI have had no effect?

You mean modern medicine being able to save lives (thus no longer making it a murder) have had no effect?

You SERIOUSLY argue that society is better now, all other violence aside?

ARE. YOU. ON. DRUGS.

[HoreTore]

So you mean CSI have had no effect?

You mean modern medicine being able to save lives have had no effect, thus no longer making it a murder?

The number of solved vs unsolved murders are irrelevant. What matters is the absolute number of murders, solved or unsolved. Attempted murders have also remained the same.

So, no.

This is simply a case of fear-induced xenophobia.

[Kadagar_AV]

Attempted murders have also remained the same.

So, no.

https://affes.wordpress.com/tag/mordforsok/

I guess you are right.

No. Wait. You are absolutely lunatic.

[Myth]

HT takes a logical but detached position on this. I favour Kad's hands on experience. Not necessarily because he would not have been mugged back in the 1980s, but because he remembers a time when people did not lock their doors and they had no beggars, much less pickpockets and thieves roaming around.

I've lived in Cyprus for a year, the Greek part of it. I don't know about murder statistics - they will probably be skewed because Limassol is the centre of operations for the Russian mafia there. I do know that people don't lock their cars and rarely lock their gates and doors, and that the only ones who steal citrus fruit from the gardens of their neighbors are dirty immigrants (like myself. We were poor students, life was hard). Granted, we only took a few lemons for the tequila shots, but it was theft nevertheless.

If someone tells me now that people in Cyprus are afraid to go out after dark and that they started locking their cars and putting chains on their scooters, I'd say the crime rate has gone way up, even if relatively the same number of people got killed per year.

So you both need to look into each other's arguments a bit IMO.

Something funny. A Roma kid is being offered 5 euro if he can name capitals of countries. It's in bulgarian/turkish/roma languages but it's worth a watch. Kid knows his geography! TBH I would have failed at Switzerland, i'd have said Neuchatel probably instead of Bern. Shows how much I know.

[Beskar]

TBH I would have failed at Switzerland, i'd have said Neuchatel probably instead of Bern. Shows how much I know.

I would have thought the biggest mistake would be Geneva, perhaps maybe Zurich. I would have never even suggested Neuchatel.

[HoreTore]

https://affes.wordpress.com/tag/mordforsok/

I guess you are right.

No. Wait. You are absolutely lunatic.

Hahahahaha. Oh dear, oh dear.

First of all, I thought we agreed to only link to BRÅ and not to some "extremist blogger"? My blog at least linked back to BRÅ to show what they based their article on. Your blog? Nothing.

Secondly, the supposed "master statistician"(you) show a fatal misconception when it comes to statistics. Graphs are only interesting when they are accompanied by text. on its own, a graph is worthless. The text is what matters, the graphs are only included to visualize the text.

So, here's what an actual link from BRÅ says about the supposed increase in violence:

Årligen drabbas omkring 2–3 procent av Sveriges befolkning
av någon form av misshandel, enligt de större offerundersökningarna. Totalt sett har det under 2000-talet vare sig skett någon minskning eller ökning av andelen utsatta för misshandel.
Mellan 2000 och 3000 personer skrivs varje år in på sjukhusens
slutenvårdsavdelningar för skador orsakade av misshandel eller
ännu grövre våldsbrott. Trots stabila nivåer av misshandel enligt offerundersökningar och sjukhusdata de senaste 15–20 åren,
har antalet anmälningar om misshandel ökat kraftigt. Viktiga
förklaringar till det är enligt forskningen nya arbetssätt och rutiner inom polisen, samt en allmänt ökad uppmärksamhet på,
och en minskad tolerans mot, våldsbrott. Trots att alltfler misshandelsbrott anmäls är dock mörkertalet för brotten fortfarande högt.

(my bolding)

So, BRÅ states clearly that there has been no increase in the type of crime you were exposed to. Have fun.

HT takes a logical but detached position on this.

I've got some anecdotes as well, if you prefer that. Some years ago, I worked for Securitas, a security guard company. Now, before Kad goes all "Norway is different to Sweden!!111": this was at Holmlia, a suburb to the east of Oslo with a very high share of immigrants. It's routinely referred to as a ghetto, and with all the doom&gloom cries of increasing crime, you would expect it to be sky-high. And indeed, crime rates there are among the highest in the country.

Now, securitas classifies the businesses(like gas stations) they protect according to the frequency of robberies. The highest level of this classification are the "very high risk" spots, and there are quite few of those.

Now, what does it take to be classified as a high risk business? With all the cries of doom&gloom, you would expect it to be at least a robbery every year to get to the highest level....

But no, 2 robberies in a decade, and you get that classification.

a time when people did not lock their doors

What you're talking about is a change in the perception of the level of crime.

I see no reason to care about peoples perceptions.

[Kadagar_AV]

Look at the clear numbers HT. stop with political articles.

Your own source there just said that reported assault have gone massively UP. Do you read it being the same or better than before?

My source use raw data. He also clearly states where the numbers are from. That blog is absolutely not extremist, it's just an avid statician presenting data.

But I guess you hate reality. No?

[HoreTore]

Look at the clear numbers HT. stop with political articles.

Your own source there just said that reported assault have gone massively UP. Do you read it being the same or better than before?

My source use raw data. He also clearly states where the numbers are from. That blog is absolutely not extremist, it's just an avid statician presenting data.

But I guess you hate reality. No?

Ahahahahahahaha.

No, those are not the "raw numbers" of assaults taking places. Those are the raw numbers of assaults being reported to the cops. Which, by the way, is a distinction your disingenuous source doesn't mention.

If the increase in reported assaults equal an actual increase in assaults taking place, we would see an increase of assaults being reported on questionnaires and, even more so, in the number of people sent to the hospital.

BRÅ has checked both, and observed that the numbers there are stable. Thus, there is nothing else to do than conclude that the the increase in the number of reported assaults means that society has started to report these crimes to the police more often.

If you want to challenge this, you would have to look for evidence like people treating their broken bones at home. I do not expect you to find much.



Bad science and a lack of reasoning skills remains a hallmark of right-wing ideologies.

EDIT: By the way, your blog says this on its about-page:

Jag är ingen statistiker

"Avid statistician", indeed.

[Ironside]

Kadagar, have you moved since your childhood?

I'm asking, because it's not hard to find areas that fits your childhood memories today and it's not hard to find areas that would beat it to a bloody pulp in 1980.

Some changes are certainly general though, like outright street begging isn't that old.

[Fisherking]

Ahahahahahahaha...

Bad science and a lack of reasoning skills remains a hallmark of ideologs.

Fixed that for you.

If you think there is less skewing of facts on one side of the political spectrum than on the other it is only your personal bias.

It is only that the dominant viewpoint prefers to report on the dirty laundry of the other side than look at their own fallacies and misconceptions.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

However, it feels weird being agreed by an USAnian... I mean, it's not like the Native Indians have a very positive view of what your immigration did for them.

If anything, your nation should serve as a warning example for other ethnic groups.

Native Americans were on the short end of a whole bunch of techno/cultural value issues that set them up for a fall. Throw in a virgin field epidemic starting in the early 1500s and they never stood a chance. Different era, different mores.

On the whole though, aside from those who were sent here as property, ethnic groups of various creeds and colors manage pretty well in the USA. Far from perfect, of course, and we have our nativist naysayers along with our "embrace newcomers" inclusives. So far, the overall result has been pretty good and a little mutt like.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I have just remembered.

Papa said that during his childhood the done thing was to see Laps as scum. Has Sweden progressed in hating black people like everyone else - or looking askance at them, at least?

You'll always have an out-group and that out-group will always prey on the weak or unwarry of the in-group.

Papa also said that in the US, 30 years ago, Indians appeared to be viewed the way Gypsies are in Europe.

His conclusion was that this is because people in the US met bad Indians and Swedes met bad Laps, now everyone meets bad Gypsies.

As always, Papa's wisdom is boundless - if a little blinkered.

[a completely inoffensive name]

My thoughts are with you Kad and I hope you make a full and speedy recovery. The regulars here can attest that I have not been kind with hearing Kad's arguments on race, but to dismiss his assault and call names is absolutely tactless regardless of his opinions derived from the matter. I am not the best person to be condemning angry name calling, but unacceptable behavior is unacceptable.

That being said, nostalgia for the past prays strongly on anyone dissatisfied with the present. For the US and other Western countries, crime rates peaked in the 1990s and have been declining ever since. At least in the case for the US, the ramp up of the War on Drugs and the start of incarceration on a truly massive scale makes the suggestion that lower numbers = everything is better now that we have more immigrants than ever, a very simple and ill thought out talking point and nothing more.

Race has nothing to do with it. It comes down to class and culture. Both of which are managed and cultivated through proper immigration control. By only accepting those who bring value (i.e, they posses skills, education) to the country, you reduce the risk of immigrants forming ghettos or otherwise lower socioeconomic blocks within urban areas. Through interviews and tight quotas you can limit those coming in to be the individuals who are more susceptible to assimilation then an individual who is only migrating to seek jobs that are nowhere to be found in his home country.

In order for multiculturalism to work you either go about it the US way, or the proper way. In the US, there was a long tradition of disrespect towards the Catholics and the Eastern Europeans and the Southern Europeans that assimilation was necessary if you wanted to survive. Learn English or we spit on you as you walk out the door. These conditions not surprisingly caused much violence between different ethnicities among urban areas where the ratio of available jobs to workers was smaller and highly sought after. The proper way is to be open and welcoming and respectful of all who come into the country, but making sure that those who do enter pass the test, which must be rigorous and to a high standard. The current European method of promoting openness while enforcing small standards on who enters is a recipe for disaster and only serves to generate a resentment to be exploited by right wing radicals.

[Hax]

One more thing: Kadagar, what you said about the inflation of the terms slut and whore, don't you think there's an other trend at work here? The fact that (hardcore) pornography has become so much more accepted over the last 20 or so years, due to which the perception of women (in general) has become so much more negative?

[Fragony]

One more thing: Kadagar, what you said about the inflation of the terms slut and whore, don't you think there's an other trend at work here? The fact that (hardcore) pornography has become so much more accepted over the last 20 or so years, due to which the perception of women (in general) has become so much more negative?

Far less accepted I'd say. Even mainstream movies used to have obligitary sex-scenes, porn used to be on the shelves at the supermarket, even kiddie-porn in the seventies if I must believe someone on Geenstijl who insists it was just for sale, I don't know if that's true, before my time. Soft-porn also used to be very normal on tv after nine. I see quite the opposite trend.

[HoreTore]

Far less accepted I'd say. Even mainstream movies used to have obligitary sex-scenes, porn used to be on the shelves at the supermarket, even kiddie-porn in the seventies if I must believe someone on Geenstijl who insists it was just for sale, I don't know if that's true, before my time. Soft-porn also used to be very normal on tv after nine. I see quite the opposite trend.

Watched any HBO lately...?

[Fragony]

Watched any HBO lately...?

I don't have tv here, but it was (here at least) very normal to have soft-porn on tv. Funnily enough most on FOX, that should amuse you. In the series of HBO that I have seen there is sex in at least yeah. But if you look at the films from the nineties and the eighties there is almost always a sex-scene, seems to be completily absent in Hollywood productions nowadays. In general I would disagree with Haxie that there is a trend towards more erotism, hardcore or softcore. Quite the opposite really.

Post made in context of looking differently at women.

[HoreTore]

I don't have tv here, but it was (here at least) very normal to have soft-porn on tv. Funnily enough most on FOX, that should amuse you. In the series of HBO that I have seen there is sex in at least yeah. But if you look at the films from the nineties and the eighties there is almost always a sex-scene, seems to be completily absent in Hollywood productions nowadays. In general I would disagree with Haxie that there is a trend towards more erotism, hardcore or softcore. Quite the opposite really.

Post made in context of looking differently at women.

I think we can say that there is less sex in action movies...

But I wouldn't agree that the terms "slut" and "whore" have changed to more conservative terms. I would say they have turned into everyday terms now, like the terms "stupid" or "dumbass". Ie. terms frequently said between friends as signs of affection as opposed to ill will. The scenario where one girl will jokingly call another girl "whore" without any ill intent is very common, starting around age 13.

[Hax]

Far less accepted I'd say. Even mainstream movies used to have obligitary sex-scenes, porn used to be on the shelves at the supermarket, even kiddie-porn in the seventies if I must believe someone on Geenstijl who insists it was just for sale, I don't know if that's true, before my time. Soft-porn also used to be very normal on tv after nine. I see quite the opposite trend.

In general I would disagree with Haxie that there is a trend towards more erotism, hardcore or softcore. Quite the opposite really.

Note: I'm not talking about whether or not (softcore) pornography has become more accepted on the TV, I'm talking exclusively about the internet here.

Just because there might be a taboo on discussing (hardcore) pornography in public doesn't mean that -- in the last twenty or so years -- the availability of such kind of pornography has rapidly become much more available. I don't think there's any 16-year old boy that hasn't browsed online pornography, and the depiction of women is far from positive. I think that if you want to look towards an answer on why it's become more socially acceptable to call girls "sluts" and "whores", I would sooner look at the depiction of women in media, rather than blaming Arab, African, or Islamic cultures.

[Fragony]

I have pet names for all my friends male and females, for my female friends (sorry non-dutchies) Lellebel, madammeke, my gay friends ouwe natte of rugridder, whatever seems funny at the time. But I don't call them sluts or whores, of kankerflikker. That's what is they hear on the street though, guess by who.

[Hax]

hurr durr arabs are to blame for everything gone wrong the last 30 years


EDIT: Somewhat less outright agressive but equally ironic in tone:

hurr duur white people don't use the term "slut"

[Fragony]

Watch 'la femme de rue' and tell me again that it isn't culturally related.