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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
That was a response to comments made about GCC states. Assad and Gaddaffi aren't bedu. I should have been more clearer, was referring to the relatively progressive sheikhdoms.
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Anyway - in many states in the Middle East even non-Christians are required to cover their heads, so why shouldn't some Western states ban it?
Because some of these western countries make big claims for themselves just like these backwards conservative Arab countries do. If you're on the better side of the spectrum there's no need to parallel their paranoia.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
@Montmorency
Even if one accepts the idea that these refugees would have a high probability of causing the relevant states to disintegrate (which I don't), it is not given that having Europe accept them is the better alternative. If it were the better alternative, then we would have to expect that the countries in the ME over time gradually would become more stable.
Without such a promise, we would risk seeing streams of refugees from the ME arriving in Europe every now and then. Over decades or centuries, Europe could become a place no more stable than the ME itself.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Anyway - in many states in the Middle East even non-Christians are required to cover their heads, so why shouldn't some Western states ban it?
Where is the superiority of our ways if we make our ways just like their ways?
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
Husar
Where is the superiority of our ways if we make our ways just like their ways?
If it's OK for them to be barbarians why isn't it OK for us?
Personally, I would ban covering the face in public places but make it legal on the street - that way you can wear a scarf when it's cold but when you come inside you take it off.
Currently watching a documentary on this and what comes through is that the Muslim women don't appreciate that the face veil specifically is highly offensive to a lot of Britons. That's not to say that the violent attacks and verbal abuse are in any way justified, they're not, but it's clear the gulf of understanding is on both sides.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
If it's OK for them to be barbarians why isn't it OK for us?
Who said it's okay? I want to welcome them to Germany if they are sick and tired of their dictatorships and the oppression. The hijab has little to do with that as long as they want to wear it.
And the more important question is, do you want to be a barbarian and live among them?
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Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Personally, I would ban covering the face in public places but make it legal on the street - that way you can wear a scarf when it's cold but when you come inside you take it off.
Then I would also ban goth clothing, punk haircuts, not having hair at all and other clear symbols of people who obviously despise our mainstream societies and do not want to be part of them. And then we should burn all the books that criticize the mainstream society, jail all computer hackers and people who use encryption or passwords because we are an open society and the internet is a very public place.
And since I don't trust people who do ungodly things behind closed curtains, ban curtains, too.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
If it's OK for them to be barbarians why isn't it OK for us?
Personally, I would ban covering the face in public places but make it legal on the street - that way you can wear a scarf when it's cold but when you come inside you take it off.
Currently watching a documentary on this and what comes through is that the Muslim women don't appreciate that the face veil specifically is highly offensive to a lot of Britons. That's not to say that the violent attacks and verbal abuse are in any way justified, they're not, but it's clear the gulf of understanding is on both sides.
I've worn a balaclava outside when it was really, really cold. As soon as I was inside, I took it off. Same with the scarf raised to cover the nose. Always combined with thick gloves and lots of layers of clothing. All of which tended to be sympathetically laughed at by onlookers, who recognised the cold but were perhaps not quite so extremely affected.
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Originally Posted by
Husar
Who said it's okay? I want to welcome them to Germany if they are sick and tired of their dictatorships and the oppression. The hijab has little to do with that as long as they want to wear it.
And the more important question is, do you want to be a barbarian and live among them?
Then I would also ban goth clothing, punk haircuts, not having hair at all and other clear symbols of people who obviously despise our mainstream societies and do not want to be part of them. And then we should burn all the books that criticize the mainstream society, jail all computer hackers and people who use encryption or passwords because we are an open society and the internet is a very public place.
And since I don't trust people who do ungodly things behind closed curtains, ban curtains, too.
Some things fit the definition of being socially undesirable, but since they grew up here, they get more of a pass (although hoodies are synonymous with juvenile delinquents, to the point of being satirised in Hot Fuzz). If these things are socially undesirable and they've been imported here, why give them this free pass? It's not as though our society makes huge demands of them to fit in.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
Husar
Who said it's okay? I want to welcome them to Germany if they are sick and tired of their dictatorships and the oppression. The hijab has little to do with that as long as they want to wear it.
And the more important question is, do you want to be a barbarian and live among them?
Saudi Arabia - that's all I want to say.
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Then I would also ban goth clothing, punk haircuts, not having hair at all and other clear symbols of people who obviously despise our mainstream societies and do not want to be part of them. And then we should burn all the books that criticize the mainstream society, jail all computer hackers and people who use encryption or passwords because we are an open society and the internet is a very public place.
And since I don't trust people who do ungodly things behind closed curtains, ban curtains, too.
Except I said banning covering the face - you can still see a Goth's face.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
Pannonian
Some things fit the definition of being socially undesirable, but since they grew up here, they get more of a pass (although hoodies are synonymous with juvenile delinquents, to the point of being satirised in Hot Fuzz). If these things are socially undesirable and they've been imported here, why give them this free pass? It's not as though our society makes huge demands of them to fit in.
Why are certain dress codes socially desirable or undesirable in the first place? Beyond not enough clothing or dirty/smelly clothing does it not get a bit superficial? And wasn't the west once proud of letting people develop such tastes individually? Being gay was once not socially desirable, was that okay? Socially desirable can quickly end in group pressure, suppression of individuality etc. It's a slippery slope. Today it's a burka, tomorrow male ear rings and sooner or later everyone wears a black suit.
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Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Saudi Arabia - that's all I want to say.
Why?
Do you think it's okay if they are barbarians and enforce that on some of their citizens or what is your point?
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Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Except I said banning covering the face - you can still see a Goth's face.
I thought it was part of your wider point about people who do not want to fit in, but maybe it wasn't or you and Pannonian have become one in my mind. ;)
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by Viking
Even if one accepts the idea that these refugees would have a high probability of causing the relevant states to disintegrate (which I don't), it is not given that having Europe accept them is the better alternative.
Oh, I wasn't saying so, just pointing out the pitfalls to that alternative.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
If it's OK for them to be barbarians why isn't it OK for us?
First you started out by saying "some European countries" and now it's "us." So which is it? It's not ok for anyone, they can all go to hell.
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Saudi Arabia - that's all I want to say.
But that is a hellhole, do you mean you'd like to be a hole too?
Not a good look to point your finger at the world's anus pit and say "but they're doing it too!"
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
HitWithThe5
First you started out by saying "some European countries" and now it's "us." So which is it? It's not ok for anyone, they can all go to hell.
But that is a hellhole, do you mean you'd like to be a hole too?
Not a good look to point your finger at the world's anus pit and say "but they're doing it too!"
Retort:
Yes, it is a hellhole.
I can agree with you, that it is (among) the worlds anuses.
However, what, OH WHAT, make you think we in the west have a better ability to care for African/Arabic internal strife and religious needs, than Saudi Arabia?
How come Muslim migrants are flocking to Sweden, and not Saudi Arabia?
You don't exactly need a fish under your nose to smell something fishy.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
Husar
Why?
Do you think it's okay if they are barbarians and enforce that on some of their citizens or what is your point?
No, but I think it's worth pointing out that we're happy to traffic with them, despite it being a terrible place for women.
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I thought it was part of your wider point about people who do not want to fit in, but maybe it wasn't or you and Pannonian have become one in my mind. ;)
No, it was about my specific point that Muslims, specifically, do not share our cultural mores. That is a big problem if they want to live in our society. Apparently Americans don't share our cultural mores either - but that's a different question.
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Originally Posted by
HitWithThe5
First you started out by saying "some European countries" and now it's "us." So which is it? It's not ok for anyone, they can all go to hell.
Banning a viel in public makes the country "hell"? Please. Now, I'll happily admit I don't understand modern Islamic culture - it looks universally crap compared to, say, 12th Century Islamic culture - but the point is very simple - that people who live in Europe should conform to a basic level of common courtesy and in my opinion covering the face in public violates that very basic level of courtesy.
This is why Muslim women are attacked on the street when they wear the veil - because a significant number of Europeans, and African Christians, find it highly offensive that they refuse to show their faces in public.
Personally I think it's ostentatious piety, divisive, and arrogant - and I think it poses a real problem from a security point of view. What's interesting is that it has become more popular int he last two decades, in fact as Islamic terrorism has become more of a problem more and more Muslim women have gone from bear-headed to scarf, to Hijab, to Niqab. There was even a girl, in full Niqab, talking about how everyone reacted when her mother came to pick her up from school the first time wearing a Hijab.
The. First. Time. So, for a few decades this woman was apparently fine with having her head uncovered, then suddenly one day she starts to cover it in public, and that then provokes a reaction. Now, is it the right reaction? No, it is not, but it's an understandable one because many of these woman have recently made a choice to start dressing like they live in the Middle East and not Europe and that's a deliberate statement of separation.
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But that is a hellhole, do you mean you'd like to be a hole too?
Not a good look to point your finger at the world's anus pit and say "but they're doing it too!"
See above - you can't have morals and traffic with the Devil, it doesn't wash.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
Husar
Why are certain dress codes socially desirable or undesirable in the first place? Beyond not enough clothing or dirty/smelly clothing does it not get a bit superficial? And wasn't the west once proud of letting people develop such tastes individually? Being gay was once not socially desirable, was that okay? Socially desirable can quickly end in group pressure, suppression of individuality etc. It's a slippery slope. Today it's a burka, tomorrow male ear rings and sooner or later everyone wears a black suit.
The suspicion of people who have their faces covered pre-dates the current issues with Muslims, as the balaclava was a symbol (and cliche) of terrorists long before the burka entered everyday language. Wear one outside socially acceptable conditions (ie. when it's bloody freezing), and you can guarantee dirty looks, and extra attention paid to you to make sure you're not causing trouble. The current most common item of clothing used for that purpose is the hood drawn over the head and as much of the face as possible, and that's synonymous with troublemakers (I've seen shops prohibiting more than x number of youngsters inside at any one time). The burka and other Muslim garments do the same job, and at a minimum is subject to the same suspicion, but in addition is a mark of identifying oneself with a foreign state. One, moreover, that has attacked us on our home soil, and continues to undermine our state, on one hand luring youngsters away with the promise of a foreign state that's supposedly more in tune with them, and on the other hand making demands of us to allow them a say (cf. articles in the Guardian and other mouthpieces claiming their way to be the natural way for humanity).
Given that I'm not too impressed with British citizens who proclaim a preference for the US over the UK, and the Americans are supposed to be our closest friends and closest cultural kin, I have absolutely no sympathy for people who are even more alien to us, who make even more demands of us, who deliberately set out to go against cultural norms that even natives are subject to. Islam claims to be a state in and of itself, and in recent years has proclaimed its own official state. With its effective state of war with us, I see no reason to stretch our societal tolerances to allow for people who identify themselves with that state.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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you can't have morals and traffic with the Devil, it doesn't wash.
Does it ever strike you that you are chopping at the branch on which you stand?
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
HitWithThe5
First you started out by saying "some European countries" and now it's "us." So which is it? It's not ok for anyone, they can all go to hell.
But that is a hellhole, do you mean you'd like to be a hole too?
Not a good look to point your finger at the world's anus pit and say "but they're doing it too!"
I'd rather point to the world's anus pit and say, let them stew in their own hell hole. I want nothing to do with them whatsoever. They can practise cannibalism or anything else they want for all I care. As long as they don't do it over here. Anyone who thinks it's ok to bring these cultural features over here against our objections can bugger off back whence they came.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
No, but I think it's worth pointing out that we're happy to traffic with them, despite it being a terrible place for women.
And what does that say about us? As Monty said, you seem to be chopping at the branch on which you stand.
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Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
No, it was about my specific point that Muslims, specifically, do not share our cultural mores. That is a big problem if they want to live in our society. Apparently Americans don't share our cultural mores either - but that's a different question.
Ok, what mores? The ones that allow us to support the people who make them flee in the first place if it supports "our interests"?
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Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Personally I think it's ostentatious piety, divisive, and arrogant - and I think it poses a real problem from a security point of view. What's interesting is that it has become more popular int he last two decades, in fact as Islamic terrorism has become more of a problem more and more Muslim women have gone from bear-headed to scarf, to Hijab, to Niqab. There was even a girl, in full Niqab, talking about how everyone reacted when her mother came to pick her up from school the first time wearing a Hijab.
The. First. Time. So, for a few decades this woman was apparently fine with having her head uncovered, then suddenly one day she starts to cover it in public, and that then provokes a reaction. Now, is it the right reaction? No, it is not, but it's an understandable one because many of these woman have recently made a choice to start dressing like they live in the Middle East and not Europe and that's a deliberate statement of separation.
What I don't get is how wearing the veil is arrogant, especially if the husbands want it. I've also had a colleague at work who started to dress "more religious" at one point, but pretty much all colleagues agreed that her husband wanted it, it just did not fit her. It was strange because people knew her in a different way, but I don't think anyone found it arrogant. It's not too different from people becoming more christian, just more visible.
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Originally Posted by
Pannonian
The suspicion of people who have their faces covered pre-dates the current issues with Muslims, as the balaclava was a symbol (and cliche) of terrorists long before the burka entered everyday language. Wear one outside socially acceptable conditions (ie. when it's bloody freezing), and you can guarantee dirty looks, and extra attention paid to you to make sure you're not causing trouble. The current most common item of clothing used for that purpose is the hood drawn over the head and as much of the face as possible, and that's synonymous with troublemakers (I've seen shops prohibiting more than x number of youngsters inside at any one time). The burka and other Muslim garments do the same job, and at a minimum is subject to the same suspicion, but in addition is a mark of identifying oneself with a foreign state. One, moreover, that has attacked us on our home soil, and continues to undermine our state, on one hand luring youngsters away with the promise of a foreign state that's supposedly more in tune with them, and on the other hand making demands of us to allow them a say (cf. articles in the Guardian and other mouthpieces claiming their way to be the natural way for humanity).
The balaclava and the hood seem to have gotten their image from the actions of the ones wearing them, what have wearers of burkas done to us to deserve the same scrutiny? I don't think the vague point of covering the face is the only reason, police do that as well and everybody should know that the burka does not make one part of a criminal gang, that's really far-fetched. That's not to say I like to see them, I think it is a sign of religious extremism and oppression, but the link you draw is just weird.
Even weirder is to say that the burka would make one a supporter of some state, does not seem to make any sense whatsoever, especially in the case of the IS since the burka long predates it and to assume that all women wearing them support ISIS seems even more far-fetched.
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Originally Posted by
Pannonian
Given that I'm not too impressed with British citizens who proclaim a preference for the US over the UK, and the Americans are supposed to be our closest friends and closest cultural kin, I have absolutely no sympathy for people who are even more alien to us, who make even more demands of us, who deliberately set out to go against cultural norms that even natives are subject to. Islam claims to be a state in and of itself, and in recent years has proclaimed its own official state. With its effective state of war with us, I see no reason to stretch our societal tolerances to allow for people who identify themselves with that state.
Again, how can you assume that all women wearing burkas identify themselves with the caliphate? Or even that they all demand something?
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
However, what, OH WHAT, make you think we in the west have a better ability to care for African/Arabic internal strife and religious needs, than Saudi Arabia?
Caring for "religious needs" (as far as hijabs go) doesn't take much effort bruh bruh.
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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
How come Muslim migrants are flocking to Sweden, and not Saudi Arabia?
Yes, you guys are getting bamboozled sorry. Not that they'd be happier in Saudi friggin Arabia.
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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
I'll happily admit I don't understand modern Islamic culture
There's no such thing.
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Personally I think it's ostentatious piety, divisive, and arrogant - and I think it poses a real problem from a security point of view.
Although I don't care for the personal part, I only ask (from the start of the thread) how in the world is this a security concern. What has happened so far?
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Originally Posted by Pannonian
Anyone who thinks it's ok to bring these cultural features over here against our objections can bugger off back whence they came.
They're still in your country and they're parading their cultural features so what are you on about exactly? You must be the minority butthurt.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
Montmorency
Does it ever strike you that you are chopping at the branch on which you stand?
That rather depends on the point I'm trying to make, doesn't it?
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Originally Posted by
Husar
And what does that say about us? As Monty said, you seem to be chopping at the branch on which you stand.
Well, me personally, I've never been a fan of the Saudi's - if they were monarchs who enforced a liberal standard of living it would be different (as in Jordan or even Bahrain) but as things stand the country's only saving grace is that it has avoided a civil war.
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Ok, what mores? The ones that allow us to support the people who make them flee in the first place if it supports "our interests"?
I don't support those states - I have repeatedly and consistently argued in favour of supporting popular revolutions in the Middle East for several years now. In particular, I have argued we should actively support them BEFORE they turn violent and if it is not practical to achieve overthrow of the regime in this way then to support the secular opposition militarily.
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What I don't get is how wearing the veil is arrogant, especially if the husbands want it. I've also had a colleague at work who started to dress "more religious" at one point, but pretty much all colleagues agreed that her husband wanted it, it just did not fit her. It was strange because people knew her in a different way, but I don't think anyone found it arrogant. It's not too different from people becoming more christian, just more visible.
Well, in your example the husband sounds like a thug but more generally there IS an element of arrogance to it. It says "look, see, I am a Muslim". I work with several girls who wear the Hijab, and absent that you would not be able to tell they were Muslims - they swear, they sit on chairs with their feet tucked under them, they wear lipstick and blush... So it's just about being SEEN to be Muslim, and in the UK with our history of religious violence ostentatious religious displays are unwelcome bordering on offensive.
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Again, how can you assume that all women wearing burkas identify themselves with the caliphate? Or even that they all demand something?
One might presume that all women wearing the Burkha think all women should wear the Burkha.
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Originally Posted by
HitWithThe5
There's no such thing.
Oh of course there is, the Hijab, the Niqab, the hats the men wear, having the Koran exclusively in Arabic. These are all cultural rather than religious markers. As I recall there's no mention of a woman covering her head in the Koran or the Hadith - you have to go back to the Torah for that. Actually, side point, there's at least one instance where the Prophet basically quotes the Torah in the Hadith - it's the passage relating to rape.
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Although I don't care for the personal part, I only ask (from the start of the thread) how in the world is this a security concern. What has happened so far?
Several women have evaded border security wearing the Burkha, one terrorist escaped the country wearing his sister's Burkha. More generally the face veil prevents identification against photo ID and the Burkha is large and Bulky enough that you can hide a broken down assault rifle or an explosive belt under it.
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They're still in your country and they're parading their cultural features so what are you on about exactly? You must be the minority butthurt.
Easy to dismiss, but the level of violence directed against Muslim women suggests that the population generally is unhappy.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Well, in your example the husband sounds like a thug but more generally there IS an element of arrogance to it. It says "look, see, I am a Muslim". I work with several girls who wear the Hijab, and absent that you would not be able to tell they were Muslims - they swear, they sit on chairs with their feet tucked under them, they wear lipstick and blush... So it's just about being SEEN to be Muslim, and in the UK with our history of religious violence ostentatious religious displays are unwelcome bordering on offensive.
Okay, so the hijab says "I'm a muslim", and you don't have a problem with the hijab. Buka also says "I'm a muslim", but you do have a problem with it. Why?
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One might presume that all women wearing the Burkha think all women should wear the Burkha.
Let them think whatever the hell they want to think, or are we now going to punish people for thought crimes?
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Several women have evaded border security wearing the Burkha, one terrorist escaped the country wearing his sister's Burkha. More generally the face veil prevents identification against photo ID and the Burkha is large and Bulky enough that you can hide a broken down assault rifle or an explosive belt under it.
I would blame the incompetent border guards or customs agents for this.
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Easy to dismiss, but the level of violence directed against Muslim women suggests that the population generally is unhappy.
Yeah, it truly sucks to be a muslim woman. Enslaved by her kin and also piled on by the society at large.
Don't get me wrong, I do not consider hijabs or burkas to be something positive. I also can see how those can be offensive. My point is that the right to offend is a cornerstone of a free society.
I don't think there's anyone at the org who is more anti-islam than I am. I'm not on their side, I'm on the side of freedom.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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That rather depends on the point I'm trying to make, doesn't it?
No. Witness the contradiction:
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I don't support those states - I have repeatedly and consistently argued in favour of supporting popular revolutions in the Middle East for several years now. In particular, I have argued we should actively support them BEFORE they turn violent and if it is not practical to achieve overthrow of the regime in this way then to support the secular opposition militarily.
Not even becoming an anchorite could save you from the inconsistency.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
Pannonian
Anyone who thinks it's ok to bring these cultural features over here against our objections can bugger off back whence they came.
The problem is that they don't bring this or that cultural feature piecemeal. They import culture as a whole. Some of it (like the food) you may like, others dislike, but if you allow people of an alien culture inside your country, don't expect them to bring in only those elements of the culture that may appeal to you.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
Gilrandir
The problem is that they don't bring this or that cultural feature piecemeal. They import culture as a whole. Some of it (like the food) you may like, others dislike, but if you allow people of an alien culture inside your country, don't expect them to bring in only those elements of the culture that may appeal to you.
When the native culture has primacy, this isn't an issue since some bits are adopted (curry after polo on the verranda with a nice G&T, or perhaps a nice BBQ listening to Reggae or Soca music) and others not (defecation in the streets, FGM, suttee).
~:smoking:
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Well, in your example the husband sounds like a thug but more generally there IS an element of arrogance to it. It says "look, see, I am a Muslim". I work with several girls who wear the Hijab, and absent that you would not be able to tell they were Muslims - they swear, they sit on chairs with their feet tucked under them, they wear lipstick and blush... So it's just about being SEEN to be Muslim, and in the UK with our history of religious violence ostentatious religious displays are unwelcome bordering on offensive.
One might presume that all women wearing the Burkha think all women should wear the Burkha.
Oh of course there is, the Hijab, the Niqab, the hats the men wear, having the Koran exclusively in Arabic. These are all cultural rather than religious markers. As I recall there's no mention of a woman covering her head in the Koran or the Hadith - you have to go back to the Torah for that. Actually, side point, there's at least one instance where the Prophet basically quotes the Torah in the Hadith - it's the passage relating to rape.
Several women have evaded border security wearing the Burkha, one terrorist escaped the country wearing his sister's Burkha. More generally the face veil prevents identification against photo ID and the Burkha is large and Bulky enough that you can hide a broken down assault rifle or an explosive belt under it.
Easy to dismiss, but the level of violence directed against Muslim women suggests that the population generally is unhappy.
It's easy enough to identify the female nutters by way of their clothing, of which the burkha is the most extreme form of saying that they have no wish whatsoever of adapting to western sensibilities. I wish there were an equivalent way of identifying the male nutters though, which because of their belief in this intensely patriarchal system, are the real a-holes in all this. For them, it's their attitude and behaviour that marks them out. Unfortunately, it's the victims they leave behind that concretely marks them out, and by that point it's too late. Although I'd venture a guess that anyone wearing a burkha would have a male nutter somewhere in the family.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
rory_20_uk
When the native culture has primacy, this isn't an issue since some bits are adopted (curry after polo on the verranda with a nice G&T, or perhaps a nice BBQ listening to Reggae or Soca music) and others not (defecation in the streets, FGM, suttee).
~:smoking:
Pity those who have to clear up after someone has committed suttee. Suttee and sweep is a grim combination.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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I don't support those states - I have repeatedly and consistently argued in favour of supporting popular revolutions in the Middle East for several years now. In particular, I have argued we should actively support them BEFORE they turn violent and if it is not practical to achieve overthrow of the regime in this way then to support the secular opposition militarily.
And then proceed to complain about barbarity.
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One might presume that all women wearing the Burkha think all women should wear the Burkha.
One might be full of crap then.
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Oh of course there is, the Hijab, the Niqab, the hats the men wear, having the Koran exclusively in Arabic. These are all cultural rather than religious markers. As I recall there's no mention of a woman covering her head in the Koran or the Hadith - you have to go back to the Torah for that. Actually, side point, there's at least one instance where the Prophet basically quotes the Torah in the Hadith - it's the passage relating to rape.
There is no universal Islamic culture. Look at what women in Tehran wear. Do you consider the Torah's Hebrew to be a cultural marker? God chose a people and their land as the spiritual birthplace for them to spread his message, can't get more religious than this. (also it doesn't matter what hats men wear, that's irrelevant)
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More generally the face veil prevents identification against photo ID and the Burkha is large and Bulky enough that you can hide a broken down assault rifle or an explosive belt under it.
Who takes a photo ID with a niqab or burka on? I don't think that's even legal. Rain coats are large and bulky enough to hide explosives under too. LOL @ "broken down assault rifle." Not an argument.
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Easy to dismiss, but the level of violence directed against Muslim women suggests that the population generally is unhappy.
Here it is, the level of violence directed against women by the native population. This is because the population is so incredibly ignorant of a large portion of the inhabitants of their own country.
http://tellmamauk.org/16-year-old-bo...-in-rotherham/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/m...t-of-sikh-man/
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
Montmorency
No. Witness the contradiction:
Not even becoming an anchorite could save you from the inconsistency.
OK, I don't see it - so you're going to have to explain, logically.
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Originally Posted by
rvg
Okay, so the hijab says "I'm a muslim", and you don't have a problem with the hijab. Buka also says "I'm a muslim", but you do have a problem with it. Why?
No, I have a problem with both - but I'm willing to tolerate the Hijab, it's somewhat less anachronistic and I can almost appreciate it because my mother still wears a hat in Church and my Nan used to wear a scarf over her hair up until ten years ago - then she stopped bothering.
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Let them think whatever the hell they want to think, or are we now going to punish people for thought crimes?
Punish people for thought crimes? No, certainly not, but I'm not above offending religious sensibilities if I consider a certain practice harmful to society at large - a few years ago certain shops started selling hoodies that basically zipped up to cover the hole head with holes for the eyes. I can't recall if they were actually banned, or if public pressure simply forced the companies to stop selling them but you don't see the garment at all now.
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I would blame the incompetent border guards or customs agents for this.
Many of them are afraid of cries of "racist" or even "rape" to take a woman aside and have her remove the burkha - even if she's supervised by a female agent.
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Yeah, it truly sucks to be a muslim woman. Enslaved by her kin and also piled on by the society at large.
Don't get me wrong, I do not consider hijabs or burkas to be something positive. I also can see how those can be offensive. My point is that the right to offend is a cornerstone of a free society.
I don't think there's anyone at the org who is more anti-islam than I am. I'm not on their side, I'm on the side of freedom.
As I said, for me personally, I consider the Niqab to be beyond the pale.
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Originally Posted by
HitWithThe5
And then proceed to complain about barbarity.
The idea is to beat the Regime quickly before society falls apart completely and everybody starts eating each other. Granted, it doesn't always work, it may never work, but it's still better than letting the whole thing drag out until the entire country is nothing but rubble
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One might be full of crap then.
These women consider the Burkha et Niqab to be the standard of modesty - are you saying that they don't think women who don't wear it are immodest?
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There is no universal Islamic culture. Look at what women in Tehran wear. Do you consider the Torah's Hebrew to be a cultural marker? God chose a people and their land as the spiritual birthplace for them to spread his message, can't get more religious than this. (also it doesn't matter what hats men wear, that's irrelevant)
Wait, are you saying you don't think the Hebrew Torah is a cultural marker?
Iran is, ironically, quite a liberal Islamic state. On the other hand, compare similarities between Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and IS.
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Who takes a photo ID with a niqab or burka on? I don't think that's even legal. Rain coats are large and bulky enough to hide explosives under too. LOL @ "broken down assault rifle." Not an argument.
Errrrr.
Where to start.
1. The problem is when you ask them to take the Burkha off.
2. Pretty sure you have to take a heavy coat OFF and put it through the X-Ray seperately. It's been a while since I flew but I distinctly recall having to take my cord jacket off.
It's not ignorance, it's dislike of difference.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Many of them are afraid of cries of "racist" or even "rape" to take a woman aside and have her remove the burkha - even if she's supervised by a female agent.
Nobody cares what they're afraid of. The law is the law. If a customs official doesn't have the guts to do his job, he should resign and let someone competent do it instead.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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The idea is to beat the Regime quickly before society falls apart completely and everybody starts eating each other. Granted, it doesn't always work, it may never work, but it's still better than letting the whole thing drag out until the entire country is nothing but rubble
Very idealistic and pretty much impossible. You forcefully change a country's political system, no matter how quickly and in the absence of a culture of peaceful reform, you will fail.
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These women consider the Burkha et Niqab to be the standard of modesty - are you saying that they don't think women who don't wear it are immodest?
Personal preference. I don't sense them looking down on their veilless friends. Maybe it's a symbol of piety, maybe they just want to wear it. Where do you get all this? Bold assumptions.
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Wait, are you saying you don't think the Hebrew Torah is a cultural marker?
Weird way of looking at it but okay, whatever. So in what language is the Bible a cultural marker? Tao Te Ching is cultural no matter what text you put it in for example. This is all bs so here is the point again: there is no universal Islamic culture and the fact you said "liberal Islamic state" proves that.
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Iran is, ironically, quite a liberal Islamic state. On the other hand, compare similarities between Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and IS.
First off what Iran presents isn't a variation of Islam. Second, how do any of these three solely define modern Islamic culture?
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1. The problem is when you ask them to take the Burkha off.
They still take it off though so what's the problem...?
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It's not ignorance, it's dislike of difference.
Which translates to beating up women in the streets and mixing up a Sikh with a Muslim. The Sikh guy got yelled at for being a terrorist before he was hospitalized, that's ignorance. You can twist and turn all you want but the fact is these people are non-Islamist women beaters and oppressors.
omg Islam is a religion of violence, UK is a nation of violence. Value judgements GTFO and take your women beaters with you.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
That's a funky logic: We have people who hunt and beat up Muslim women in the streets -> Obviously there is something wrong with Muslim women...
How about there are people who blow up westerners -> Obviously there is something wrong with westerners...
I also don't see how one can complain about the culture or religion being way to patriarchal and that the burka is a sign of oppression of women and then claim they all want to wear it out of sheer arrogance. I suppose someone will claim that these arguments come from different people, but then maybe it would be nice if people who argue to ban something wouldn't give mutually exclusive answers as for why it is bad because that makes the arguments seem very silly.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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OK, I don't see it - so you're going to have to explain, logically.
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you can't have morals and traffic with the Devil, it doesn't wash.
To gerrymander a new understanding of "evil" for every separate occasion and then ignore the resulting cascades of inconsistency...
Let's be blunt, if you accept a notion like "evil" then you can't escape it with convenient No True Scotsman devices. To conceive evil is to live with it, at all times.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Despite all this talk, the political reality is that European voters are going to reject current "multiculturalism" policies within the next two election cycles (give or take for the country). This seems to be the trend according to the polls. European states/borders will become more militarized in response to the number of refugees/abusers that are flocking to western europe. Schengen will collapse, except for the trade portions as Monty pointed out. The social systems will take a hit as resources are diverted to the growing military forces patrolling the borders. This additional strain will only put more blame on the refugees that are already inside the borders and if the left does not change it's tune soon, the right wing extremists are going to have public support for more radical domestic policies.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by
a completely inoffensive name
Despite all this talk, the political reality is that European voters are going to reject current "multiculturalism" policies within the next two election cycles (give or take for the country). This seems to be the trend according to the polls. European states/borders will become more militarized in response to the number of refugees/abusers that are flocking to western europe. Schengen will collapse, except for the trade portions as Monty pointed out. The social systems will take a hit as resources are diverted to the growing military forces patrolling the borders. This additional strain will only put more blame on the refugees that are already inside the borders and if the left does not change it's tune soon, the right wing extremists are going to have public support for more radical domestic policies.
Is America still looking for qualified people or will I have to hide in a boat and save a fortune for a trafficker?
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
Is America still looking for qualified people or will I have to hide in a boat and save a fortune for a trafficker?
We are a fair people. You and 1500 other Germans can come over.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
Is America still looking for qualified people or will I have to hide in a boat and save a fortune for a trafficker?
You won't like the bit where they tell you to renounce your allegiances to any previous countries and instead pledge yourself to the US. Since it's exactly what you object to wrt Islam and Europe.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
“First off what Iran presents isn't a variation of Islam” Partially agree, as it is as well a “Persia against Arab” problem but really? Hidden Prophet? Battle of Karbala?
https://youtu.be/xwQjO-XmpE0
Well, some might say it was political, and it was certainly, but it made a rift between 2 streams of Islam. The first rift, followed by others, as Islam is not one.
Do note that the link present one side of the story (evil against good), and of course the other side wouldn’t agree with it.
“Which translates to beating up women in the streets and mixing up a Sikh with a Muslim.” Yeap, Muslim men haven’t the monopoly of violence against women and Religion neither. However some religions say it is ok to beat women.
“omg Islam is a religion of violence, UK is a nation of violence.” The Book itself contains the seeds of extremism and violence, as the life of the Prophet itself. I am not a professional in British laws, but I can tell you that English women beaters have not articles of law to present to a jury when in Court. Muslim men can because there is one.
Your point of view is Islam doesn’t need to be defended. It just can’t stand scrutiny. When laws by Secular State are bad, they are changed, but how can you change the words of God without first recognise they are not entirely the word of god?
“Maybe it's a symbol of piety, maybe they just want to wear it. Where do you get all this? Bold assumptions.” You are absolutely right. So, yes, you might see women wearing the Hidjab for fashion reason, but you might see some wearing for political/religious reason. And no state should be able or authorised to decide how faithful follow their religion/fashion within the frame work of the law it is up the law to draw a line when and where, at which condition. Same for nudity: authorised in some beaches, forbidden at work or in public places, even if you are a Druid.
It would be stupid to ban helmet when driving a motorcycle. However, it is not allowed to wear a helmet in a bank (even entering in a bank).
"You won't like the bit where they tell you to renounce your allegiances to any previous countries and instead pledge yourself to the US" Err, I was sure it was for Nationality Oath. So, you are telling that to work in the USA you need to pledge allegiance to the USA?
And some said that Europe is Fascist...:creep:
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
That's a funky logic: We have people who hunt and beat up Muslim women in the streets -> Obviously there is something wrong with Muslim women...
I don't think anyone has advocated beating up anyone who covers their face, muslim or otherwise. There are also people who beat up blacks / gays / cripples.
So getting away from the :strawman1:...
The thing that is wrong is covering one's face in public, be that with a gas mark, a harlequin mask, an "anonymous" mask etc. I know many muslim women who manage to hold their creed without covering up their face - it is not a religious requirement and not something that should be tolerated (in as much in the same way we do not accept someone entering a bank with a bicycle helmet on), no more than we'd tolerate the KKK wearing full face coverings as part of their beliefs.
~:smoking:
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
That's a funky logic: We have people who hunt and beat up Muslim women in the streets -> Obviously there is something wrong with Muslim women...
Don't know if that is true, but if they wear full cover I don't feel sorry for them, I am not going to help, I am not even calling the policeor an ambulance. If you drop the glove it can be picked up, if I behave highly inapropiate I get beat up as well.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
HitWithThe5
Very idealistic and pretty much impossible. You forcefully change a country's political system, no matter how quickly and in the absence of a culture of peaceful reform, you will fail.
Well, we did it in Germany and Japan - we changed Germany so much they're now willing to take in hundreds of thousands of refugees. Even the most charitable view of the traditional German Psyche would not allow for that.
In any case, it's not about being the force for change it's about picking a side - the best side you can find - rather than letting a corrupt and brutal regime destroy a country just so no one else can have it.
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Personal preference. I don't sense them looking down on their veilless friends. Maybe it's a symbol of piety, maybe they just want to wear it. Where do you get all this? Bold assumptions.
Where I come from ostentatious symbols of piety are considered rude because they imply moral superiority. "I wear a Burkha, I am pious, you do not, you are not as pious as me".
It's inescapable. It's like me wearing a wooden cross, putting on an undyed wool robe and leather sandals and putting my Bible and all my worldly possessions into a leather scrip.
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Weird way of looking at it but okay, whatever. So in what language is the Bible a cultural marker? Tao Te Ching is cultural no matter what text you put it in for example. This is all bs so here is the point again: there is no universal Islamic culture and the fact you said "liberal Islamic state" proves that.
Are you saying that Islam is not a defining feature of Pakistani or Saudi culture? I find that hard to believe - they produce the same kind of nutters.
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First off what Iran presents isn't a variation of Islam. Second, how do any of these three solely define modern Islamic culture?
Because they're Shia?
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They still take it off though so what's the problem...?
Sometimes they don't, or you have to take them into a side room - point is they require quite awkward special dispensations. I object to fuss on principle.
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Which translates to beating up women in the streets and mixing up a Sikh with a Muslim. The Sikh guy got yelled at for being a terrorist before he was hospitalized, that's ignorance. You can twist and turn all you want but the fact is these people are non-Islamist women beaters and oppressors.
omg Islam is a religion of violence, UK is a nation of violence. Value judgements GTFO and take your women beaters with you.
Oh no, you misunderstand, they are ignorant - and they're thugs because they attack women - but the point I am making is that, intrinsically, Britons find a covered face provocative - choosing to cover your face in public as a way to show your religion is therefore making a deliberately provocative choice. These women either do it knowing they will offend, or they don't understand - in either case they're setting themselves apart from mainstream society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
That's a funky logic: We have people who hunt and beat up Muslim women in the streets -> Obviously there is something wrong with Muslim women...
How about there are people who blow up westerners -> Obviously there is something wrong with westerners...
Well, there's a lot wrong with what Westerners do in the Middle East, but to answer the thrust of your argument - some people (bad people) beat up Muslim women as a way to cope with the level of discomfort they feel, some people just refuse to look at them and some people internalise discomfort as guilt and become apologists.
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I also don't see how one can complain about the culture or religion being way to patriarchal and that the burka is a sign of oppression of women and then claim they all want to wear it out of sheer arrogance. I suppose someone will claim that these arguments come from different people, but then maybe it would be nice if people who argue to ban something wouldn't give mutually exclusive answers as for why it is bad because that makes the arguments seem very silly.
You are saying that a woman cannot be oppressed and proud of her oppression but European society functioned on exactly that principle for generations. I think the idea of "Service" lasted longest in the UK because of our oh so healthy aristocracy but it was common across Europe at least until WW1 - the idea that the common man should be proud that his "betters" lorded it over him because that meant he was a good man and not a "ruffian" or a "scoundrel".
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Montmorency
To gerrymander a new understanding of "evil" for every separate occasion and then ignore the resulting cascades of inconsistency...
Let's be blunt, if you accept a notion like "evil" then you can't escape it with convenient No True Scotsman devices. To conceive evil is to live with it, at all times.
Yes, I'm evil, you're evil, the Dali Lama is evil (and a tyrannous warlord who sided with the Mongols to oppress Tibet) but that doesn't mean there's no difference between us and Assad.
This is not about choosing a "lesser evil" it's about doing the best you can. We have allowed Syria to burn for years and all we have achieved is an increase in suffering and a refugee crisis that will reverberate across Europe for decades - so "saying out" of the Syrian Civil War was, I think, a bad choice.
Here's a poser for you - I know said I'd personally ban the Niqab because I think it's harmful to society at large but I realise this will isolate some Muslim women who will refuse to leave their houses - yet I'd still ban it. Why do you suppose that is?
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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We have allowed Syria to burn for years and all we have achieved is an increase in suffering and a refugee crisis that will reverberate across Europe for decades - so "saying out" of the Syrian Civil War was, I think, a bad choice.
It's about doing the best you can?
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Here's a poser for you - I know said I'd personally ban the Niqab because I think it's harmful to society at large but I realise this will isolate some Muslim women who will refuse to leave their houses - yet I'd still ban it. Why do you suppose that is?
You suppose it will contribute some salutary effect to the social and political climate of the UK over the longer-term as clear limits are set, immigrants integrate, and violent elements are marginalized and rooted out.
A regular utilitarian.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
You won't like the bit where they tell you to renounce your allegiances to any previous countries and instead pledge yourself to the US. Since it's exactly what you object to wrt Islam and Europe.
That's what I object to? I wasn't aware.
What does banning or not banning clothes have to do with allegiance to a country? Are you not allowed to wear Lederhosen in the US because that would show allegiance to Bavaria?
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Originally Posted by
rory_20_uk
I don't think anyone has advocated beating up anyone who covers their face, muslim or otherwise. There are also people who beat up blacks / gays / cripples.
So getting away from the :strawman1:...
Nice, you made up your own straw man and then put it into my mouth.
I never saw anyone arguing that either, PVC said there is something wrong with women wearing certain headgear if some natives feel the need to beat them up. That was one of the worst examples of victim blaming I've seen. And that was my point, that it was victim blaming and made no sense.
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Originally Posted by
Fragony
Don't know if that is true, but if they wear full cover I don't feel sorry for them, I am not going to help, I am not even calling the policeor an ambulance. If you drop the glove it can be picked up, if I behave highly inapropiate I get beat up as well.
Can you explain how or why a burka is highly inappropriate and warrants beating someone up?
Being gay used to and still is seen this way, e.g. in Russia. Should gays leave Russia because they deserve to get beaten up since being gay is highly offensive there? Now they may not be able to change it, but at least they should not dress or behave gay in public right? Some things should just be hidden in some places apparently.
I actually agree with rvg here that this completely undermines the personal freedom we used to value in the western world.
You don't have to like it, but it does not warrant violence or suspending any rights of these people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Oh no, you misunderstand, they are ignorant - and they're thugs because they attack women - but the point I am making is that, intrinsically, Britons find a covered face provocative - choosing to cover your face in public as a way to show your religion is therefore making a deliberately provocative choice. These women either do it knowing they will offend, or they don't understand - in either case they're setting themselves apart from mainstream society.
How about you phrased it very unclear?
Again, Russians find gays offensive, and looking Chinese.
We used to find jews offensive. I find smoking offensive.
Does that mean smokers should stop smoking or take a beating from me while Fragony would not call an ambulance?
If someone has an irrational fear or a completely unwarranted response to a perceive offense, that's no reason to blame the victim, instead you should correct the guy who can't control himself. The gays also know their parades will offend some people and most people still think they have a right to do them. These women have a right to wear what they want and other people have the right to react to it as long as they do not harm them. Again, I don't like to see women wearing a burka myself, but that's not a reason to beat them up, not save their lives or throw them out of the country.
I don't buy that our justice system or values make us weak either, I think what makes us weak is that we do not apply them rigorously enough because too many people are biased either way and do not like parts of either system. We react to terror attacks by cutting into our own values for a false sense of security. We say it's necessary to have total surveillance but we never ask why the Boston bombing or other terror attacks happened anyway. And then we become xenophobic and throw even more of our values out the window. And then we cry that the immigrants will destroy us and our cultures while we ourselves are constantly throwing our own culture out of the window to react to minuscule threats. Yes there are problems such as parallel societies or gangs that the police cannot control. But how about we just apply existing laws or create proper laws to fight them instead of applying idiotic mass punishments over the threat of improper clothing?
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Montmorency
It's about doing the best you can?
Yes, trying to make the best choice you can - our leaders choose to make no choices. Ukraine is a similar example of the same malaise, we abhor war so we allow others to make it without censure.
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You suppose it will contribute some salutary effect to the social and political climate of the UK over the longer-term as clear limits are set, immigrants integrate, and violent elements are marginalized and rooted out.
A regular utilitarian.
Well, that would be nice but I actually expect it to increase segregation and bad feeling over the short to medium term. However, I think that it might force people to chose, integrate on the terms of the host country or don't. One of the interesting things I have noted over the last decade or so is that Muslims are becoming more ostentatious in their faith - not just more pious but louder about it. I suspect part of that is a larger Muslim population which means people have a viable alternative to integrating with the mainstream - they can just live in all-Muslim communities, something that was far harder to achieve 10 and certainly 20 years ago.
at the end of the day, I simply don't think we should allow an incoming group to change our culture to the extent that we see face covering as acceptable.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Most of Husar's response to my comment was fairly coherent and I have no real objection to most of it, but there is one important point - well two - that I want to make.
If we have principles they should, to an extent, be taken as read. I'm English, I'm so English I'm here drinking Early Grey Tea at almost two in the morning. I don't believe in attacking women, full stop, the end, never justified. Anyone who's interacted with me over the last decade should know that - that's not to say that I don't understand why some people attack these women.
Understanding is not agreement, I also understand why these women cover their faces to an extent. It is not, by and large, because they are afraid they fathers or husbands will beat them. No, most Muslim women wearing the Niqab do it because, as far as I have heard and read, they see it a as a necessary part of their faith. If you look at the way they describe themselves they use words like "demure" and "modest". These women believe that by hiding their faces and bodies they are acting in a morally right and proper way - some see it as intrinsically a moral necessity, some see it as a necessity in a Western culture where women are "immodest" and they need to be firm in their faith.
None of that changes the fact that it's a misogynistic practice rooted in the Biblical virgin/whore dichotomy which we would not find acceptable in any non-Muslim context and a practice we ourselves dispensed with more than a century ago (Victorian upper-class women habitually wore veils in public to be demure and modest).
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
If we have principles they should, to an extent, be taken as read. I'm English, I'm so English I'm here drinking Early Grey Tea at almost two in the morning. I don't believe in attacking women, full stop, the end, never justified. Anyone who's interacted with me over the last decade should know that - that's not to say that I don't understand why some people attack these women.
I also understand why some people want to rob me, but I don't see how that would be a reason to ban having money or valuables with you.
You could say it's very provocative to the poor and the homeless though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Understanding is not agreement, I also understand why these women cover their faces to an extent. It is not, by and large, because they are afraid they fathers or husbands will beat them. No, most Muslim women wearing the Niqab do it because, as far as I have heard and read, they see it a as a necessary part of their faith. If you look at the way they describe themselves they use words like "demure" and "modest". These women believe that by hiding their faces and bodies they are acting in a morally right and proper way - some see it as intrinsically a moral necessity, some see it as a necessity in a Western culture where women are "immodest" and they need to be firm in their faith.
None of that changes the fact that it's a misogynistic practice rooted in the Biblical virgin/whore dichotomy which we would not find acceptable in any non-Muslim context and a practice we ourselves dispensed with more than a century ago (Victorian upper-class women habitually wore veils in public to be demure and modest).
So what? I know a Christian church where the women only wear skirts and no trousers for more or less the same reasons.
I wasn't aware that this sort of behavior was banned. These women can believe what they want as long as they do not harm anyone.
Pretty much all of the Christian churches I've been to teach that the world outside the church is rotten and immoral and so on.
I may not necessarily agree with it anymore but where is the reason for a ban as long as they do not want to destroy or harm that world they perceive as immoral?
Punks also think that, and communists, and buddhists and I would guess quite a few of the homeless do not think it is moral that they have to sleep on cardboard every night. Where are the politicians who want to end that?
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Well, some might say it was political, and it was certainly, but it made a rift between 2 streams of Islam. The first rift, followed by others, as Islam is not one.
Do note that the link present one side of the story (evil against good), and of course the other side wouldn’t agree with it.
To suggest that it is a variation implies that shia departs from Islam. They are different approaches that came at a crossroads as a result of fitna between a “companion” of the prophet and his grandsons. Sunna do not take pride in this event, they just constantly neglect it and both doctrines have a stubborn attitude towards each other. Both of them are stupid might I add. They are both popular and legit Islamic bodies of thought that adopt certain aspects of Islam to fit their agenda and cultural/political aspirations.
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Yeap, Muslim men haven’t the monopoly of violence against women and Religion neither. However some religions say it is ok to beat women.
The point I was trying to make there is that incidents like these result from ignorance. Beating up someone in the street by mistaking their identity or by mere virtue of being brown is inherent in all the stupid people and you don’t need Islam to tell you to commit such things.
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Your point of view is Islam doesn’t need to be defended. It just can’t stand scrutiny. When laws by Secular State are bad, they are changed, but how can you change the words of God without first recognise they are not entirely the word of god?
It can stand scrutiny, scrutiny that makes sense. What in your opinion, in the Qur’an, is in dire need of changing exactly? I am willing to bet anything you bring up has a contradiction on some other chapter. A Muslim who does not admit that this book has contradictions is uneducated and in denial. Even the most bigoted Saudis I know openly admit this. That does not discredit it, people who feel that their faith is threatened by such a thing .. they are the ones to blame not the Qur’an.
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And no state should be able or authorised to decide how faithful follow their religion/fashion within the frame work of the law it is up the law to draw a line when and where, at which condition. Same for nudity: authorised in some beaches, forbidden at work or in public places, even if you are a Druid.
We’ve already been over this but you had to have noticed by now that even you can’t bring up something remotely similar or comparable to the hijab. This is a casual attire that does not threaten the well-being of anyone else nor does it have the potential to. Again, speaking about the hijab. I don’t care about no burkas or niqabs I agree they’re ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by Phillipvs
Where I come from ostentatious symbols of piety are considered rude because they imply moral superiority. "I wear a Burkha, I am pious, you do not, you are not as pious as me”.
I don’t care about the burka, any veil that doesn’t cover the face can just be a fashion statement. What about “look at me I take pride in my Arabness,” don’t tell me you’re against that too …. And it being rude I don't think warrants banning it, I never knew this culture could be so overly-sensitive like many Muslims.
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Are you saying that Islam is not a defining feature of Pakistani or Saudi culture? I find that hard to believe - they produce the same kind of nutters.
Once more, there is no universal islamic culture. These are two countries, and any other country I bring up is somehow a variation or “liberal?”
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Because they're Shia?
Islamic Republic of Iran. You present a Saudi/Wahhabi view by describing it as an offshoot.
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Sometimes they don't, or you have to take them into a side room - point is they require quite awkward special dispensations. I object to fuss on principle.
I don’t think it’s that much of a hassle honestly. Trivial.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HitWithThe5
I don’t care about the burka, any veil that doesn’t cover the face can just be a fashion statement. What about “look at me I take pride in my Arabness,” don’t tell me you’re against that too …. And it being rude I don't think warrants banning it, I never knew this culture could be so overly-sensitive like many Muslims.
Muslims do not have a monopoly on Arab culture. Headscarves and all that assorted crap, that's the legacy of the savages from Nejd. Civilized levantine arabs don't have a thing to do with it.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
"Civilized" Levantine Arabs were the centers of Islamic research for centuries. I understand that completely but whether you like it or not Islam formed the foundation of Arab culture no matter what creed.
I'd take my sand goon forefathers from coast of Oman, Yemen, and the Trucial states over your ilk any day of the week. If yall were so civilized how come you're doing so well? Check that superiority complex, especially considering where it's coming from lmfao.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
HitWithThe5
"Civilized" Levantine Arabs were the centers of Islamic research for centuries. I understand that completely but whether you like it or not Islam formed the foundation of Arab culture no matter what creed.
That's just not true. It formed the culture of muslim Arabs, that is true, but there still are plenty left who never belonged to that religion.
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I'd take my sand goon forefathers from coast of Oman, Yemen, and the Trucial states over your ilk any day of the week. If yall were so civilized how come you're doing so well? Check that superiority complex, especially considering where it's coming from lmfao.
Of course you will, as you said, they're your forefathers. The point is that they aren't mine, neither religiously, nor culturally, nor in any other way. As for how well the Levant is doing, Lebanon for instance is doing well enough. The real question is, what do the Gulf States have to show for all their wealth? Where is their industry, where is their professional workforce, where is their educated scientific elite?
What can the average guy from the gulf do, other than going on a falcon hunt, smoking his nargila until he's blue in the face, and talking about piety? How does that add to the GDP, how does that advance the human race? It doesn't.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by rvg
That's just not true. It formed the culture of muslim Arabs, that is true, but there still are plenty left who never belonged to that religion.
It formed the culture of Arabia. Plain and simple. It doesn't matter if you didn't belong to it you witnessed and contributed to its progress.
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Originally Posted by rvg
Of course you will, as you said, they're your forefathers. The point is that they aren't mine, neither religiously, nor culturally, nor in any other way.
Ethnically and culturally they are. When was the last time you got a good read of your buddy Bashar's Hizb manifesto?
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Originally Posted by rvg
As for how well the Levant is doing, Lebanon for instance is doing well enough.
Lebanon is an absolute disgrace right now and that is why Lebanese are flocking to the Gulf. They have Islamists as a legit party are you okay with that?
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Originally Posted by rvg
where is their professional workforce, where is their educated scientific elite?
Oh that would be the civilized Levantines thank you guys. :)
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Originally Posted by rvg
What can the average guy from the gulf do, other than going on a falcon hunt, smoking his nargila until he's blue in the face, and talking about piety? How does that add to the GDP, how does that advance the human race? It doesn't.
I have no idea what a nargila is. Do you guys actually call it that instead of shisha or are you a coconut Arab? No offense intended.
Iran is not your friend, and the Israelis ironically hate you more than the "pious" Gulf. When we house your non-Muslim minorities you will know whose turn it truly is to champion the middle east with the help of our Egyptian friends, the heart of Arabia.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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I have no idea what a nargila is. Do you guys actually call it that instead of shisha or are you a coconut Arab? No offense intended. Listen unlike you I got mad respect for yall but the burning jealousy is oh so apparent. We've survived for this long and sorry to say we aren't going anywhere even when the oil runs out. You have been raped by the west and now you are carbon copies wearing penguin suits, shouting for reform and secularism and all that bs when it has constantly dragged you into the abyss. You have no desert survival instinct and are gradually becoming unfit for Arabia.
Iran is not your friend, and the Israelis ironically hate you more than the "pious" Gulf. When we house your non-Muslim minorities you will know whose turn it truly is to champion the middle east with the help of our Egyptian friends, the heart of Arabia.
Wow.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Tough love from "savages."
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HitWithThe5
It formed the culture of Arabia. Plain and simple. It doesn't matter if you didn't belong to it you witnessed and contributed to its progress.
Ethnically and culturally they are. When was the last time you got a good read of your buddy Bashar's Hizb manifesto?
You are overstating their influence. If you're looking for an example of people who have no ethnic links to Arabia, folks from around Mt. Lebanon come to mind. Egyptians as well. They might speak Arabic and all, but they still look like they came straight off the frescoes of the Karnak temple. As for Bashar, he can go screw himself. He was given a relatively stable, relatively prosperous multi-ethinc, multi-cultural, multi-religious country, and he pissed it away. Yes, he's better than the current alternative, but only because the alternatives are so horrible.
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Lebanon is an absolute disgrace right now and that is why Lebanese are flocking to the Gulf. They have Islamists as a legit party are you okay with that?
It has seen better days, but oh well, that's what they get for accepting all those Palestinians. It's still the cultural capital of the Middle East though.
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Oh that would be the civilized Levantines thank you guys. :)
Don't you find it alarming that the locals aren't striving to achieve something similar?
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I have no idea what a nargila is. Do you guys actually call it that instead of shisha or are you a coconut Arab? No offense intended. Listen unlike you I got mad respect for yall but the burning jealousy is oh so apparent. We've survived for this long and sorry to say we aren't going anywhere even when the oil runs out.
For my part I also must say that this isn't anything personal. What bothers me is that the region has plenty of resources to advance, it just lacks the desire to do so.
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You have been raped by the west and now you are carbon copies wearing penguin suits, shouting for reform and secularism and all that bs when it has constantly dragged you into the abyss. You have no desert survival instinct and are gradually becoming unfit for Arabia.
The Western way isn't just different. it's better. It's the way of the future.
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Iran is not your friend, and the Israelis ironically hate you more than the "pious" Gulf. When we house your non-Muslim minorities you will know whose turn it truly is to champion the middle east with the help of our Egyptian friends, the heart of Arabia.
Israel is not a threat to me at all. They just want to be left alone, that's all. As for Iran, it's nobody's friend. Oh and speaking of "pious" Gulf, I still remember my time in Basra back in the late 70s: every Thursday night there was this long stream of cars pouring through from Kuwait. They were coming over to drink themselves under the table.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by rvg
You are overstating their influence. If you're looking for an example of people who have no ethnic links to Arabia, folks from around Mt. Lebanon come to mind. Egyptians as well. They might speak Arabic and all, but they still look like they came straight off the frescoes of the Karnak temple.
But these are fringes. This is the first I hear of it, and frankly I don't think it's a popular view unless you can prove me wrong. It seems that the way you view Muslim Arabs caused you to look for things that set the identity apart? Because saying that Christian Arabs, karnak temple Arabs, or even Berbers have no relation to Arab-Islamic civilization or shared ancestry is simply not true. From Saba' to Damascus to pharaoh Egypt, they are one and the same.
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It has seen better days, but oh well, that's what they get for accepting all those Palestinians. It's still the cultural capital of the Middle East though.
Egypt is the cultural capital of the middle east. It's the motherland as far as I know.
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Don't you find it alarming that the locals aren't striving to achieve something similar?
But the Idea that they're not striving for it is a myth. They are marginalized as a result of regime priorities yes but Omanis for example are blue-collar, they have a good workforce. Bahrain and Kuwait, despite their political shortcomings, have the most progressive/liberal thinkers in the Gulf. It's definitely alarming, however, statistically each generation has proven to be better than the last. It's alarming but it is bound to happen considering even Saudi Arabia has quite a few of its own elite workforce, which are constantly offered US citizenship and residency. I don't blame them for taking them up on that.
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For my part I also must say that this isn't anything personal. What bothers me is that the region has plenty of resources to advance, it just lacks the desire to do so.
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The Western way isn't just different. it's better. It's the way of the future.
Boils down to the political system. Sheikhs will make compromises with an educated population, these countries are only forty years old after all. When patronage systems are put aside the distribution of wealth will be questioned. Oman is practically secular relative to the Gulf, Kuwait and the UAE are clearly departing from traditional Islam.
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Israel is not a threat to me at all. They just want to be left alone, that's all. As for Iran, it's nobody's friend. Oh and speaking of "pious" Gulf, I still remember my time in Basra back in the late 70s: every Thursday night there was this long stream of cars pouring through from Kuwait. They were coming over to drink themselves under the table.
So why did they invade an independent Arab state?
That's what I'm saying, there's nothing "pious" about the Gulf. I'll be the first to admit we are full of crap.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
HitWithThe5
But these are fringes. This is the first I hear of it, and frankly I don't think it's a popular view unless you can prove me wrong.
Fringes or not, they exist and have stayed in their ancestral regions up until the arrival of ISIS.
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It seems that the way you view Muslim Arabs caused you to look for things that set the identity apart? Because saying that Christian Arabs, karnak temple Arabs, or even Berbers have no relation to Arab-Islamic civilization or shared ancestry is simply not true. From Saba' to Damascus to pharaoh Egypt, they are one and the same.
I disagree completely. Arab civilization long predates islam as good old Philip the Arab would attest. Also, there is a cultural abyss between a Lebanese, a Yemeni, and a Moroccan. Not to mention that they would barely understand one another.
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Egypt is the cultural capital of the middle east. It's the motherland as far as I know.
Let's just agree to disagree on this one.
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But the Idea that they're not striving for it is a myth. They are marginalized as a result of regime priorities yes but Omanis for example are blue-collar, they have a good workforce. Bahrain and Kuwait, despite their political shortcomings, have the most progressive/liberal thinkers in the Gulf. It's definitely alarming, however, statistically each generation has proven to be better than the last. It's alarming but it is bound to happen considering even Saudi Arabia has quite a few of its own elite workforce, which are constantly offered US citizenship and residency. I don't blame them for taking them up on that.
Exactly, so the industrious ones leave. The ones who are sure to stay are the guys who take pride in being useless. The world needs a very limted number of calligraphers, koranic scholars, and experts in medieval arabic poetry. Most actually need to learn to do something useful instead.
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Boils down to the political system. Sheikhs will make compromises with an educated population, these countries are only forty years old after all. When patronage systems are put aside the distribution of wealth will be questioned. Oman is practically secular relative to the Gulf, Kuwait and the UAE are clearly departing from traditional Islam.
Do you see things making a serious change? Because I do not. As for Oman, that Kaboos fellow is a brilliant man, but he's in his seventies now. What mechanism would prevent thing from going to business as usual once he dies? There is no such mechanism.
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So why did they invade an independent Arab state?
That's what I'm saying, there's nothing "pious" about the Gulf. I'll be the first to admit we are full of crap.
Hell if I know. Saddam already had more money than a man can spend. Maybe he got bored.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
“Again, speaking about the hijab. I don’t care about no burkas or niqabs I agree they’re ridiculous.” It is not about ridiculous or not. It is, for me, the necessary neutrality in some workplaces i.e. Civil Servants are bound to be. A Jewish can argue that a Muslim Judge will be discriminatory (we had the case where the Defendant refused some juries because they were allegedly Jews).
The fact is there is confusion between fashion and religion I agree.
However, as it is impossible to decide what is what, the ban of all ostentatious religious symbols where neutrality (which is an active principle, not a default one) has to be enforced.
“and you don’t need Islam to tell you to commit such things.” I agree. But you can’t avoid the problem that if a Holly (or even a common law) book tells it is right to do so you have a problem with the text.
“A Muslim who does not admit that this book has contradictions is uneducated and in denial.” Agree. But in the texts I read, or debate I listen, a lot of them just ignore that the Koran (final? Version) took some editing and time. And these are the majority. I have the debate in French of one Muslim scholar who just say what you say, but he is in a minority.
I grant you that Media prefer to invite the others, it makes more audience.
If you speak French, a really good debate:
https://youtu.be/1r7LGzkulEg
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by rvg
Fringes or not, they exist and have stayed in their ancestral regions up until the arrival of ISIS.
So real druze for example are not blood-related to non-druze, does that set them apart from the collective Arab civilization? I don’t see it. There is one Arab civ body and Islam happens to dominate most of that as a result of its forceful nature towards the region. This is unfortunate but to not acknowledge that is utter denial.
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Originally Posted by rvg
I disagree completely. Arab civilization long predates islam as good old Philip the Arab would attest. Also, there is a cultural abyss between a Lebanese, a Yemeni, and a Moroccan. Not to mention that they would barely understand one another.
Yes it does, so what makes you think your ancestors are different from mine? I wasn’t around then so please enlighten me. There are countless dialects in the Arab world, but that difference does not instantly cut off any blood ties they have. I don’t even know how many dialects there are in Saudi Arabia but there are quite a few of them. Also why would you bring up a white Roman into a discussion about what is Arab and what is not, this is for Arabs to decide...
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Exactly, so the industrious ones leave. The ones who are sure to stay are the guys who take pride in being useless. The world needs a very limted number of calligraphers, koranic scholars, and experts in medieval arabic poetry. Most actually need to learn to do something useful instead.
I think you may have an outdated perception of what’s actually going on. There are little to no local calligraphers and experts in medieval arabic poetry. Koranic scholars are dying out in fact besides in the kingdom. These guys may be useless in many things but they occupy white-collar jobs and most of them are middle class business men who take advantage of the benefits the govt showers on them.
What’s ironic is that these useless jobs and fields of study are mostly occupied by Levantine Arabs, Muslim or not.
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Do you see things making a serious change? Because I do not. As for Oman, that Kaboos fellow is a brilliant man, but he's in his seventies now. What mechanism would prevent thing from going to business as usual once he dies? There is no such mechanism.
There is little indication that business will not go as usual. Qaboos might be the world’s greatest administrator, iirc that country has zero debt. He has already established a culture of job diversity and the population is accustomed to it. Oman is unlike any other country, especially in the Gulf, and will probably be around for a long time. This is a country that established its own religious Islamic freedom and outright rejected the prophet and his following caliphs’ commands.
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Originally Posted by Brenus
However, as it is impossible to decide what is what, the ban of all ostentatious religious symbols where neutrality (which is an active principle, not a default one) has to be enforced.
Well then that's that I guess. I suppose if they don't like it they should not work as civil servants, especially in France where it might oppose your history and culture of secularism.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
HitWithThe5
So real druze for example are not blood-related to non-druze, does that set them apart from the collective Arab civilization? I don’t see it. There is one Arab civ body and Islam happens to dominate most of that as a result of its forceful nature towards the region. This is unfortunate but to not acknowledge that is utter denial.
Don't know much about the Druze to be honest. What I do know is that if you walk up to an Egyptian and refer to him as an Arab, he will not be happy to hear it and will likely correct you, stressing that he's an Egyptian.
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Yes it does, so what makes you think your ancestors are different from mine? I wasn’t around then so please enlighten me. There are countless dialects in the Arab world, but that difference does not instantly cut off any blood ties they have. I don’t even know how many dialects there are in Saudi Arabia but there are quite a few of them. Also why would you bring up a white Roman into a discussion about what is Arab and what is not, this is for Arabs to decide...
I think you're confusing making the assumption that Arabs = Bedouins. That's an oversimplification. As far as why I know that my ancestors are different from yours, it's precisely that: you're a bedouin, and I'm not. Nor did I ever have any ancestors from Arabia.
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I think you may have an outdated perception of what’s actually going on. There are little to no local calligraphers and experts in medieval arabic poetry. Koranic scholars are dying out in fact besides in the kingdom. These guys may be useless in many things but they occupy white-collar jobs and most of them are middle class business men who take advantage of the benefits the govt showers on them.
Of course, it's understandable that they would take what is offered to them. I'm just wondering what's going to happen when the gravy train stops. There will be lots of pissed off people who used to be rich, and those people will surely begin to rock the boat. More instability in the Gulf: that is the absolute last thing anybody needs.
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What’s ironic is that these useless jobs and fields of study are mostly occupied by Levantine Arabs, Muslim or not.
Well, shame on them for wasting their lives.
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There is little indication that business will not go as usual. Qaboos might be the world’s greatest administrator, iirc that country has zero debt. He has already established a culture of job diversity and the population is accustomed to it. Oman is unlike any other country, especially in the Gulf, and will probably be around for a long time. This is a country that established its own religious Islamic freedom and outright rejected the prophet and his following caliphs’ commands.
I hope you're right. I just know that his father was the exact opposite of him. Now, considering that afaik he has no children and no heir, you're looking at a possible full blown succession crisis. In a country where one man pretty much decides everything, the possibility of a wrong man getting on the throne is quite real.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
HitWithThe5
I don’t care about the burka, any veil that doesn’t cover the face can just be a fashion statement. What about “look at me I take pride in my Arabness,” don’t tell me you’re against that too …. And it being rude I don't think warrants banning it, I never knew this culture could be so overly-sensitive like many Muslims.
Well, I'm not allowed to take pride in my Englishness...
I don't see your point here, as I'm arguing primarily against the Niqab, although I have seen the stupidity of a Burkha first hand working down a mountain behind a woman who couldn't see her own feet.
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Once more, there is no universal islamic culture. These are two countries, and any other country I bring up is somehow a variation or “liberal?”
Oh of course there is, just as there is a universal post-Roman European culture so there is a universal Arab-Islamic culture, one that has been imported to other non-Arab Islamic countries.
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Republic of Iran. You present a Saudi/Wahhabi view by describing it as an offshoot.
You were the one who said Iran doesn't present a "variation" of Islam, so I questioned whether you thought Iran was Islamic at all because they're Shia (and not Arabs) and you appear to be a Sunni Arab.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood but that was my reading of your comments.
Speaking technically the Shia are a heretical offshoot/minor heretical sect of Islam, the schism between Sunni and Shia is very much like the Catholic/Orthodox schism in that it's about the inheritance of power and divine rights.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by rvg
Don't know much about the Druze to be honest. What I do know is that if you walk up to an Egyptian and refer to him as an Arab, he will not be happy to hear it and will likely correct you, stressing that he's an Egyptian.
That is not true. We're talking Egyptians in Egypt right? Egyptians that know Arabic too? Egyptian Coptic Christians and Jews identify themselves as Arabs also.
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I think you're confusing making the assumption that Arabs = Bedouins. That's an oversimplification. As far as why I know that my ancestors are different from yours, it's precisely that: you're a bedouin, and I'm not. Nor did I ever have any ancestors from Arabia.
See, this is an oversimplification. The Gulf isn’t some homogenous bedouin country. I know families that originated from Yemen, Persia, Oman, and even India. My ancestors were seafarers, not bedouins. I just said sand goons because you know damn well that’s what all Arabs were, even the Levantines who try to elevate from these origins thinking they’re shameful for some reason. I don't know how you don't realize this when you keep mentioning pre-Islamic middle east to prove your point. They all have a shared history, heritage, culture, language, they are all on the same boat.
So you are not an Arab? Ah, my bad.
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Of course, it's understandable that they would take what is offered to them. I'm just wondering what's going to happen when the gravy train stops. There will be lots of pissed off people who used to be rich, and those people will surely begin to rock the boat. More instability in the Gulf: that is the absolute last thing anybody needs.
This is painfully obvious and many can see that. I don’t think it’s serious enough to the level of disintegration. You see even though middle eastern civilization is getting razed by ISIS the plastic buildings in Dubai will bring in the money for decades to come. Everyone has a stake in Dubai, even AQ wouldn't dare attack it.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
HitWithThe5
That is not true. We're talking Egyptians in Egypt right? Egyptians that know Arabic too? Egyptian Coptic Christians and Jews identify themselves as Arabs also
Have you spoken to many? I have to quite a few on many occasions, and I don't remember a single one identifying as Arab. Don't get me wrong, the irony of the people of the Arab Republic of Egypt refusing to identify as such does not escape me, but that's what I have seen. This was back in the 90's, but I can't imagine things changing a whole lot since then.
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See, this is an oversimplification. The Gulf isn’t some homogenous bedouin country. I know families that originated from Yemen, Persia, Oman, and even India. My ancestors were seafarers, not bedouins. I just said sand goons because you know damn well that’s what all Arabs were, even the Levantines who try to elevate from these origins thinking they’re shameful for some reason. I don't know how you don't realize this when you keep mentioning pre-Islamic middle east to prove your point. They all have a shared history, heritage, culture, language, they are all on the same boat.
So you are not an Arab? Ah, my bad.
I'm not. My roots go to pre-Arab Middle East.
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This is painfully obvious and many can see that. I don’t think it’s serious enough to the level of disintegration. You see even though middle eastern civilization is getting razed by ISIS the plastic buildings in Dubai will bring in the money for decades to come. Everyone has a stake in Dubai, even AQ wouldn't dare attack it.
Like I said, I hope you're right. I'm just looking at how Russia's economy is crumbling from low oil prices and hope not to see the same thing happening in the Gulf.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
I'm not. My roots go to pre-Arab Middle East.
Than surely you understand how Islam has undoubtedly characterized the culture of the middle east for better or worse. There is a monopoly, the timeline’s been shaped by centuries of Islam. Headscarves and all that "assorted crap" of Arab-Islamic tradition are the enduring legacy of the entire middle east, the strongest social unifying force of all its inhabitants. There is the ancient, and then there is the beginning - the da’wa and the people who stood up to a system of aristocracy. The most drastic change in the history of the region.
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Have you spoken to many? I have to quite a few on many occasions, and I don't remember a single one identifying as Arab. Don't get me wrong, the irony of the people of the Arab Republic of Egypt refusing to identify as such does not escape me, but that's what I have seen. This was back in the 90's, but I can't imagine things changing a whole lot since then.
Yes, way too many. I am baffled by this. Never seen or heard anything like that. I guess it could be a Persian and Irani sort of thing.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HitWithThe5
See, this is an oversimplification. The Gulf isn’t some homogenous bedouin country. I know families that originated from Yemen, Persia, Oman, and even India. My ancestors were seafarers, not bedouins. I just said sand goons because you know damn well that’s what all Arabs were, even the Levantines who try to elevate from these origins thinking they’re shameful for some reason. I don't know how you don't realize this when you keep mentioning pre-Islamic middle east to prove your point. They all have a shared history, heritage, culture, language, they are all on the same boat.
Eh?
Arabs come from Arabia - Arabia was a backwater until the Caliph sent an army to conquer the Roman and Persian Empires. Long ago people went to Arabia but the Levantines are the descendants of the Hellanised Phoneticians, Semetics who didn't go. They were building military and trade Empires, and colonising the coast of Arabia, whilst the Bedoin were... well we don't know because irrc the Bedoin were pre-literate during this period - they learned writing from the descendent of the Phoneticians.
It's also worth noting that the whole area was a lot less sandy in the pre-Islamic age.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HitWithThe5
Than surely you understand how Islam has undoubtedly characterized the culture of the middle east for better or worse. There is a monopoly, the timeline’s been shaped by centuries of Islam. Headscarves and all that "assorted crap" of Arab-Islamic tradition are the enduring legacy of the entire middle east, the strongest social unifying force of all its inhabitants. There is the ancient, and then there is the beginning - the da’wa and the people who stood up to a system of aristocracy. The most drastic change in the history of the region.
Not sure about the monopoly. As for the headscarves, in the 1970s Baghdad there were plenty of mini-skirts, but hardly any headscarves.
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Yes, way too many. I am baffled by this. Never seen or heard anything like that. I guess it could be a Persian and Irani sort of thing.
Decided to take a quick look at the web just to see if things have changed from what I remember. They did not.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Eh?
Arabs come from Arabia - Arabia was a backwater until the Caliph sent an army to conquer the Roman and Persian Empires. Long ago people went to Arabia but the Levantines are the descendants of the Hellanised Phoneticians, Semetics who didn't go. They were building military and trade Empires, and colonising the coast of Arabia, whilst the Bedoin were... well we don't know because irrc the Bedoin were pre-literate during this period - they learned writing from the descendent of the Phoneticians.
It's also worth noting that the whole area was a lot less sandy in the pre-Islamic age.
I want to know how you know.
Bedu and desert dwellers predate all in the middle east. There were bedu in Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Israel, Sinai, and Sudan.
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Originally Posted by rvg
Not sure about the monopoly. As for the headscarves, in the 1970s Baghdad there were plenty of mini-skirts, but hardly any headscarves.
Sorry I meant Islam as the most enduring legacy, not just specifically headscarves but the atmosphere overall. There's no denying Islam is engraved in the region even with non-Muslims who pass by and say "salaam alaikum," it's not religious any more it's just being Arab.
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Decided to take a quick look at the web just to see if things have changed from what I remember. They did not.
Thats just weird to me. How can Coptics for example claim to be descendents of pharaonic Egyptians? It reeks of self-serving bs. Arabia itself is inhabited by Persians, Africans, khanates (baluchistan, pakistan, others), and yemenis (sabaeans). The truth is you cannot possibly know in a situation like the middle east, its not set in stone. Somehow tracing your ancestry that far back in the ME is farfetched, and fishy. But I hope they succeed in doing this, it's what Egypt should place more emphasis on. I hear Sisi is a strong supporter of it.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HitWithThe5
Thats just weird to me. How can Coptics for example claim to be descendents of pharaonic Egyptians? It reeks of self-serving bs. Arabia itself is inhabited by Persians, Africans, khanates (baluchistan, pakistan, others), and yemenis (sabaeans). The truth is you cannot possibly know in a situation like the middle east, its not set in stone. Somehow tracing your ancestry that far back in the ME is farfetched, and fishy. But I hope they succeed in doing this, it's what Egypt should place more emphasis on. I hear Sisi is a strong supporter of it.
The DNA doesn't lie.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
HitWithThe5
I want to know how you know.
Bedu and desert dwellers predate all in the middle east. There were bedu in Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Israel, Sinai, and Sudan.
Aside from looking at a map?
Genetic studies and archaeology can tell you a lot - for example they tell you that people came out of Africa and up the Levantine coast, they then spread East and North into Asia and Europe, the civilisation of Ancient Mesopotamia are the oldest on this side of the planet and their roots go back to Sumer, whose language is attested in writing as early as 2500 BC, and they were a non Semitic people. Now, there were Semitics living in the area too and they gradually subsumed the Sumer but these were not "sand goons" they were people who had lived in on the Alluvial Plain for millennia, spreading into the surrounding arid regions when the overall climate was more temperate.
We're talking more that 7,000-8000 years ago here - this is a settled arable culture that pre-dates the Bible.
So, what you're saying is Bedouin culture is older that Sumer? I find that hard to swallow, especially given that the general migratory root out of Africa would mean that humans would have settled on the Alluvial Plain and then groups would have gradually spread down into Arabia.
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Thats just weird to me. How can Coptics for example claim to be descendents of pharaonic Egyptians? It reeks of self-serving bs. Arabia itself is inhabited by Persians, Africans, khanates (baluchistan, pakistan, others), and yemenis (sabaeans). The truth is you cannot possibly know in a situation like the middle east, its not set in stone. Somehow tracing your ancestry that far back in the ME is farfetched, and fishy. But I hope they succeed in doing this, it's what Egypt should place more emphasis on. I hear Sisi is a strong supporter of it.
Well, one notes that those who remain Copts are unlikely to have interbred with their Arab overlords a great deal and in any case such invasions tend not to contribute as much to genetics as they do to language. A genetic study of the English, for example, suggests we're basically the same people as the Neolithics, but we've gone through Celtic, Roman and Germanic "cultural invasions".
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
a few years ago certain shops started selling hoodies that basically zipped up to cover the hole head with holes for the eyes. I can't recall if they were actually banned, or if public pressure simply forced the companies to stop selling them but you don't see the garment at all now.
Perhaps it has nothing to do with any ban - the fashion might have changed and wearing such outfit became out of trend.
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Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
2. Pretty sure you have to take a heavy coat OFF and put it through the X-Ray seperately. It's been a while since I flew but I distinctly recall having to take my cord jacket off.
Are you sure the customs officers weren't in for some fun of seeing striptease in the workplace?
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Originally Posted by
Husar
How about there are people who blow up westerners -> Obviously there is something wrong with westerners...
If you read this thread you will have to admit the latter:laugh4:
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Originally Posted by
Brenus
“omg Islam is a religion of violence, UK is a nation of violence.” The Book itself contains the seeds of extremism and violence, as the life of the Prophet itself. I am not a professional in British laws, but I can tell you that English women beaters have not articles of law to present to a jury when in Court. Muslim men can because there is one.
The Bible has such seeds as well, and some episodes of the life of Jesus Christ were let us say not unimpeachable. So if one tried one can find in the Bibile justification for any illegal action of his and present it to the court.
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Originally Posted by
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Oh no, you misunderstand, they are ignorant - and they're thugs because they attack women - but the point I am making is that, intrinsically, Britons find a covered face provocative - choosing to cover your face in public as a way to show your religion is therefore making a deliberately provocative choice. These women either do it knowing they will offend, or they don't understand - in either case they're setting themselves apart from mainstream society.
In the last sentence replace "these women" with "Charlie Hebdo" and you will get the explanation of why the massacre happened.
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Originally Posted by
Husar
The gays also know their parades will offend some people and most people still think they have a right to do them.
Burka-wearers at least don't parade through the city as if saying : "It is fun to wear a burka, join us".
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Originally Posted by
rory_20_uk
When the native culture has primacy, this isn't an issue since some bits are adopted (curry after polo on the verranda with a nice G&T, or perhaps a nice BBQ listening to Reggae or Soca music) and others not (defecation in the streets, FGM, suttee).
~:smoking:
Once again, the native culture may chose which bit(s) to adopt, but it has to learn how to deal with the ones it chooses to discard, since those who brought them in may wish to keep all of them.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
"The Bible has such seeds as well, and some episodes of the life of Jesus Christ were let us say not unimpeachable. So if one tried one can find in the Bibile justification for any illegal action of his and present it to the court. " Indeed.
Christianity was tamed by the Enlightenment, but as you mentioned, the seeds are still there. You just have to listen to some US preachers to know that their ideas are not far from ISIL or Saudis' ones. Christians have a problem they try to resolve in "hate the sin, love the sinners" stance, but their extremists rightly argue that the killing bits are in the Bible, and Jesus was indeed sometimes violent (use of the whip) therefore violence and killing are justified by the Holly Book(s).
However, at this moment on Earth history, there is no Christian Republic of "Insert Name of Country", so no country enforced a law where justice is applied by the Inquisition (not the Dragon Age one).
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Re: To Hijab or not to Hijab
"In the last sentence replace "these women" with "Charlie Hebdo" and you will get the explanation of why the massacre happened." Really? Charlie Hebdo put itself out side of the French Main Stream? France is about 59 % atheist. My step-daughter, heavily involved in Baptist Church, is telling me that France is not a Christian country, (best compliment EVER), and Charlie was out?
Your analyse of cause and effect is a little bit surprising...
Now, yes, the Muslim religious fanatic murderers who did attack Charlie and (do not forget this point) a kosher shop (in order to kill Jews) were offended by the cartoons, and wanted to imposed their religious laws on a secular country and kill atheists as written in the book. Does it make their action lawful or even right. No.
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Re: To Hijab or not to Hijab
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Originally Posted by
Brenus
"In the last sentence replace "these women" with "Charlie Hebdo" and you will get the explanation of why the massacre happened." Really? Charlie Hebdo put itself out side of the French Main Stream? France is about 59 % atheist. My step-daughter, heavily involved in Baptist Church, is telling me that France is not a Christian country, (best compliment EVER), and Charlie was out?
Your analyse of cause and effect is a little bit surprising...
What I love most about the Church of England is its ineffectiveness. Just like the British monarchy. I like having them around in positions of authority. Because they do nothing, and their occupying these places means no one else will occupy them and do something.
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Re: To Hijab or not to Hijab
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Originally Posted by
Brenus
However, at this moment on Earth history, there is no Christian Republic of "Insert Name of Country", so no country enforced a law where justice is applied by the Inquisition (not the Dragon Age one).
That is true. But I spoke not of the implementation of any religious tenets, but of the applicability of holy books being used as a justification for violence. In this respect both of the mentioned are on par.
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Originally Posted by
Brenus
"In the last sentence replace "these women" with "Charlie Hebdo" and you will get the explanation of why the massacre happened." Really? Charlie Hebdo put itself out side of the French Main Stream?
I would venture to say "yes". Having no deep awareness of the spiritual values reigning in contemporary French society but seeing the general European trend I would name tolerance as a mainstrean French value. What CH did and does is anything but tolerance.
Yet I never said anything which advocated the violence directed at them.
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Re: To Hijab or not to Hijab
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Originally Posted by
Gilrandir
What CH did and does is anything but tolerance.
Yet I never said anything which advocated the violence directed at them.
Strongly disagree, Why am I defending a notoriously leftwing magazine in the first place, THAT is tolerance; you don't agree but agree to disagree, without running in with assault-rifles because your arguments are even smaller than your dick.
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Re: To Hijab or not to Hijab
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Originally Posted by
Fragony
Strongly disagree, Why am I defending a notoriously leftwing magazine in the first place, THAT is tolerance;
I will venture to remark that in other aspects your tolerance is, err, inconspicuous.
As for CH, instead of fostering unity within confessionally and ethnically diverse society (which is ultimately done through propagating tolerance) they chose to mock the feelings of a vulnerable and prone to knee-jerk reaction community.
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Originally Posted by
Fragony
without running in with assault-rifles because your arguments are even smaller than your dick.
If one knows it and still pushes on with his line of behavior he shouldn't wonder the rifle fires at some moment.
Like I said, it is prudence or politeness.
But I thought we are done with this argument. Or are we not?
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Re: To Hijab or not to Hijab
Ukrainians should know better than to provoke Russia by seeking closer relations with the West.
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Re: To Hijab or not to Hijab
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Originally Posted by
Gilrandir
I will venture to remark that in other aspects your tolerance is, err, inconspicuous
Please do, I don't care, I am still the guy that shelters and feeds a Somali refugee anyway, are you doing the same
No you aren't are you, I do that though. But I don't have room for two or three more
I can, so I do. Not because anyone demands me to.
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Re: To Hijab or not to Hijab
"As for CH, instead of fostering unity within confessionally and ethnically diverse society (which is ultimately done through propagating tolerance) they chose to mock the feelings of a vulnerable and prone to knee-jerk reaction community." Tolerance is not to accept all values or way of life. Tolerance is to accept someone to have different opinion/religion/culture than you, if in the frame of the Constitution/law/Universal Human Rights.
CH was perfectly in its right to challenge/mock the Islamist superstition and story telling. As each main superstitions is in fact an blaspheme to each others (e.i. Islam doesn't recognised the Crucifixion of Christ which is a blaspheme to Christians).
I recognise and accept the right to the Religious population to believe in a Big Man (Woman/Spaghetti) In The Sky as they respect and accept my right not to, and to openly say it is really but really a stupid idea.
And I as well demand not to be obliged to follow/obey their religious demands/requests/habits/clothing under the flimsy pretext they are offended by it if I don't.
So, CH did mock all political & religious movements. Christian extremists did fire-bombed their office before, the only ones actually murdering members of the publication were the Muslims fanatics.
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Re: To Hijab or not to Hijab
I think it's morally perfectly justifiable and right to take a stroll in the streets at four in the morning, but in some areas I still wouldn't do it because I'm not ready to buy a new cellphone for my right to take a stroll at four in the morning. Although I assume I put less value on that right than CH did on their right to mock anyone. Some people made decisions and we saw the outcome, you both have a point, now let's put on our hijabs and move on.
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Re: To Hijab or not to Hijab
On the other hand, there are otherwise neither petty miscreants nor criminal organizations that would see you dead or subjugated regardless of what you think of walking at night, and who only now that you've gone on record are preparing to bust into your apartment at 4 AM and gun you down for the sake of the example
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
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Originally Posted by
rvg
The DNA doesn't lie.
No it doesn't go that far back.
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Originally Posted by Philipvs
So, what you're saying is Bedouin culture is older that Sumer? I find that hard to swallow, especially given that the general migratory root out of Africa would mean that humans would have settled on the Alluvial Plain and then groups would have gradually spread down into Arabia.
There are just so many examples here that suggest they are older. The earliest sign of modern humans outside Africa was found in Jebel Faya, Arabian peninsula I believe. Um al Nar culture was a bronze age civilization, 2700-2000 BC. Desert dwellers and nomads were first across the region. It’s common sense actually. What do you think they did when the land was less arable? Move north obviously. That cycle has repeated itself throughout middle eastern history so there is no chance of homogeneity especially ancient civilization remnants. It's intermixed.
Overcomplicating things. The majority of the Levant see themselves as Arabs. Different Arabs but Arabs. I don't where all this is coming from and it's a waste of time to entertain that thought when little to nobody in the region sees it the same way.
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Aside from looking at a map?
I think this is where your idea came from in the first place. It makes little sense.
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Re: To Hijab or not to Hijab
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Originally Posted by
Montmorency
On the other hand, there are otherwise neither petty miscreants nor criminal organizations that would see you dead or subjugated regardless of what you think of walking at night, and who only now that you've gone on record are preparing to bust into your apartment at 4 AM and gun you down for the sake of the example
And isn't that a good thing? What about this is "on the other hand"? Yous suggest that what you say contradicts what I said, but it doesn't.
My point was that the realities of the world do not always correspond to what the law says. It's the job of thee police and government to make it so to a degree and the argument here is completely useless unless Gilrandir is actually saying that the terrorists had a right to kill the journalists, which would be ludicrous.
To me it looks like Gilrandir is saying that CH had to shut up or die and Brenus is saying that shouldn't be so and they're repeating it back and forth as though the two statements were contradictory, which they are not. It's the most boring "debate" that I haven't entirely read in a while.
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Re: ISIS on the offensive in Iraq
No, that wasn't the point. The threat from muggers is limited, local, and opportunistic. The threat from Islamist terrorist/jihadis is basically unlimited in scope. Their attacks demand careful ideological analysis and planning on the part of the perpetrators.
To say that Charlie Hebdo invited attack by mocking radical Islam is not really any more meaningful than to say that the Jewish supermarket or museum invited attack.
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Originally Posted by
HitWithThe5
No it doesn't go that far back.
What? No. The rest is basically wrong too.
