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Ae long as there are demands there is no problem. As long as nobody asks anything from me he/she can howl to the moon all they want. But it kinda goes wrong there no. Muslims will always be offended anyway, if there is no reason they will look for one, so you could as well mock them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
A psychosis is not a hobby for people who actually believe in it either, what's your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Why the heck should I respect someone who base his life on writings of a desert living tribe from the iron age? I mean, seriously?
Why the heck should I respect someone who earns money by telling people how to slide down a hill?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
I mean seriously, that's the most pointless exercise, people could already slide down hills in the middle ages.
Why should I respect anyone but myself?
Your attempt of angering me is endearing <3Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Short answer, you shouldn't, if he tries to tell you how to live your life.
If he tries to tell you how to pointlessly slide down a hill you might want to consider his advice though...
Why you should respect anyone but yourself? Because it's the nice things to do, and you would want people to treat you the same way.
However, to respect someones IDEAS is far far far far faaaaaaar away from respecting them as person.
You seem to hold a very weak argument here, mate.
“If you have no clue what's in the quran, maybe that would be hard, but why do other muslims who actually read the book tell us about all the parts of the Quran that the IS violates?” Well, none, if I follow what French Muslims Scholars are writing in magazines and newspapers, and they point out that it is where the problem is, and that what they want to change. Killing Jews and Gays is not only allowed but recommended in the Quran, as having slaves and killing agnostics, atheist and polytheist. Yes, some say that Jihad is the conquest of your inner self, but it is as well to wage war on others lands as mentioned in the Land of Islam (land with no war, abusively translated as the Land of Peace) and the Land of War. Islam divides the human race in the one of the top being the Muslims, the ones who can live as slaves (dhimmi) being from the religion of the book, and the others you can kill. No, sorry, the ones it is your duty to kill.
“The ones who keep saying all their actions are by the book are the IS guys themselves, do you always take the propaganda of your enemy at face value?” I think I answer this remark.
“But that goes both ways, how can you demand respect from muslims when your magazines call them idiots every day?” Here, YOU are “taking the propaganda of your enemy at face value”. Charlie Hebdo never called Muslim idiots. CH attacked the Religion, the System, as idiotic, as they did and do for all Religions. That is why the ones excusing the massacre try to mix Racism with anti-religious articles. Islam is not a Race, but a Religion, so not immune to be called Idiotic. Racism is an offense in France, not an opinion. Each time Religions try to go to the Curt against CH on these grounds they lost the case.
As the rest of your intervention, nothing to had, I fully agree on your remark.
“If you want to do away with freedom of religion and force everyone to live the atheist life, just say so.” Atheist is not a religion, so no rules to follow, no Doctor of the Faith or equivalent and no one try to enforce atheism. What atheists want is the Religions stop to try to impose their views, moral and clothing on others. Religions are opinions. Some have the opinion that Mary is a virgin, some don’t. And because their opinions are de facto blaspheming for others religions, atheists came with the idea of laicism. Keep your religion private, believe what you want in the respect of the common law voted by elected Parliaments, and please stop the strop.
If you want to believe that...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
How many muslims are trying to tell you how to live your life?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Really? I asked a muslim, who doesn't want to kill me by the way, why some Mohammed cartoons insult him. And he said it's because they insult something that is very dear to him, something that is sacred to him. If you say his religion is stupid, you also say that he is stupid for following it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
And I know that Christians have very similar opinions because I happen to have been in several churches in my life.
So Fragony was right all along?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Good to know.
Again, when you say a religion is so stupid that only idiots would take it seriously, what do you expect the people who take it seriously to think?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Yes, the vast majority of believers of all kind do this, the others are prosecuted as criminals, where exactly is the problem apart from the fact that some religious people can also be criminals?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
That you are endearing? Everyday of the week mate <3Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Well, there was this muslim bomber who blew himself up where I lived back in 2010...Quote:
How many muslims are trying to tell you how to live your life?
Admittedly I have only mentioned one, but that was plenty enough for me, thankyouverymuch...
Oh, and my grudge against Islam isn't because of him, but because of how the action was met by other muslims... Or to go on, how all the repulsive things going on within Islam gets a silent "ok" from the muslims around where I live.
If muslims want to show they hate things like this... They should do more about it.
The Jihad clique in the sururbs where I lived before are "the cool guys", Jihadism is actually alluring, and we have countless of "Swedes" (read Arab immigrants) fighting for ISIS...
Until the general muslim community see these terrorists as an absolute pariah, I have no sympathy for them. And at least here in Sweden, the muslim community does not. Heck, our biggest muslim organization even invites Jihadi speakers...
So, well, **** them.
Sure, christians have done, and do, a lot of ****. They are also religious, and thus held by belief not fact.Quote:
Really? I asked a muslim, who doesn't want to kill me by the way, why some Mohammed cartoons insult him. And he said it's because they insult something that is very dear to him, something that is sacred to him. If you say his religion is stupid, you also say that he is stupid for following it.
And I know that Christians have very similar opinions because I happen to have been in several churches in my life.
However, in Christianitys defense... Islam is now where Christianity was somewhere before the enlightenment... Christianity has improved a LOT since... Islam on the other hand? Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.
“where exactly is the problem apart from the fact that some religious people can also be criminals?” In the fact the Religion is telling them they can, may be? And that is in fact recommended?
“So Fragony was right all along? Good to know.” You avoid answering: So what in IS’ actions, is against Islam? And I don’t speak of Muslims; I speak of Islam as an Ideology. Because, com’on, if any political organisations would have followers killing left, right and center in its name, giving references from the political platform telling to do so, having a totalitarian ideology, how long it would take to ban it? Are Religions immune to common laws and social basic laws?
“And he said it's because they insult something that is very dear to him, something that is sacred to him.” Well, tough. The idea that there are people believing there is a god is insult to intelligence for me, and I don’t start to shoot at followers of religion(s). That is what we call tolerance.
“If you say his religion is stupid, you also say that he is stupid for following it.” Brainwashed, delusional, or just in need of a big daddy: Depends on how aggressive the guy or woman is. And again, what is the problem? Your German Muslim didn’t even know of a French Satirical Magazine, but he/she is still hurt in his/her feelings because someone told him/her that it was insult: His/her choice. So, leave with it.
“How many muslims are trying to tell you how to live your life?” The ones willing to kill for it: At least 3 in Paris last month, 1 in Denmark, several thousands (hundreds of thousands?) in Iraq apparently.
Plus the ones demanding respect for their “hurt feeling” when someone's opinion is their belief system is medieval, racist and fascist, against modern idea of human rights. That hurts their feelings, well, change the bits of Islam that just do that. Might not leave much of the book mind you. Don't worry I think the same for the Bible and others "holly" texts.
Muslims just have to do like their brothers (not sisters, as religions don’t have a great deal of admiration for females) in monotheistic religions: don’t tell the bad parts, push them under the carpet, and forget them. With time, we forget Christianity and Judaism are pro-slavery, against gender equality and sciences, and were aggressively lands grabbers. Then job done, you can pretend that Religions are for peace and understanding.
Yes, the proper response to someone demanding that you change your way of life is to throw your previous morals away and ask people who had nothing to do with it but are loosely associated with the other guy to change their lives...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
That way you, eh, win and show your moral superiority...
So I assume that you voted for a party that is loosely associated with Breivik's ideology, that's even more than a silent "ok" from you for murdering children...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
I also didn't see you protesting against white supremacists in the streets, so since you're white that has to be a silent "ok" from you. :dizzy2:
I wouldn't say christianity has improved, most of it has just become semi-atheism and the rest returned to the roots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
I already said I didn't read the quran, it's just that people who did read it and live according to it say their actions are against the quran. Where is the improvement in alienating these people further by banning their religion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
He does tolerate it, the point was that it's an insult by proxy, I never said he can't live with it, don't make things up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
You obviously have a problem with religious people, too, so you're just a version of him on the other side of the fence.
Well, given how you talk about and belittle other people who disagree with you, I'm not sure I want to share your modern idea of human rights. And you don't seem to understand the point of a religion at all: http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/4-2.htmQuote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Uuuuh... Did you just take what I wrote, and decided to personally edit it, or what?
You just know that a quote falls short when it starts with "However".
Christianity at large is still evil and rotten, sure.
However, compared to Islam... Nah, I wont go into that. It feels insulting comparing Islam to modern Christianity.
Please note the word "modern".
Heck, the pope even went out PUBLIC to say that the earth, might in fact, turn around the sun...
Geez, WOW, if that isn't religious progression I dont know what is!!!
The joke turns bitter when you indulge the thought that Islam hasn't even reached this very basic level of normal modern, well, intelligence.
“You obviously have a problem with religious people, too, so you're just a version of him on the other side of the fence.” :laugh4: my step-daughter is heavily involved in a new-born Christian movement, so your assertion is completely out of reality. My opposition to religion is intellectual. It is still religious people who killed atheist on Paris, and tried in Denmark
“it's just that people who did read it and live according to it say their actions are against the quran.” Well, they are lying, or they didn’t read the Quran (2nd hypothesis most realistic). Doctors of Muslim Faith didn’t issued any fatwa against IS because all actions of IS are not against Quran’s writing. Killing gay (and you can find the quote in your favourite research engine) is commanded as killing Jews, agnostics, atheists and other sub-Muslims. The Quran tells you when you can beat you wife and when to stop. I invent nothing, all can be checked. So, can you ask “people who did read it and live according to it” what is against Quran in IS’ actions? And I don’t want a sentence that can be interpreted as against the killing, as all religions contradict themselves. No. I want form them a clear message from the Quran showing that it does not teach that killing Jews and others. Well, they won’t be able to do so, because it does.
They pick and choose and it is good they do so. But they can't claim that IS is doing against Quran's writtings.
“He does tolerate it, the point was that it's an insult by proxy” Good for him, and it is not an insult, the fact is there is no god, no holly texts, all these are men made. If reality is insulting, well, nothing I can do. And rainbows are just the colours of light even if some wish they are not.
“And you don't seem to understand the point of a religion at all” oh, I do. Oppression, murders, racism, crusades and Jihads, useless debates about non-existent deities and I can carry on.
“I'm not sure I want to share your modern idea of human rights” I sure of this as yours seem a little bit from Bronze Ages tribes orientated, slavery, inequality, etc… By the way, having as reference a book agreeing with slavery, genocide and aggression is not a good move. Well, for me at least.
Now they are also pissing of Egypt..
No, the rest just wasn't relevant to my reply, I didn't even criticize you in my reply, just offered my view on the improvement part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
See, I want to give you honest replies and then I see hints of your crazy IQ theories again and I just despair. Sometimes I just quote the parts I want to give honest replies to but then you complain that I use your stuff out of context. So here you have a quote with full context and my reply that I just don't feel like going over this stupid argument of yours again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Okay, point taken, I just haven't read a whole lot of intellectual articles yet where the people they disagree with are described with words like brainwashed and delusional, but maybe that's because I don't study a social science. ~:shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Even if that is so, what are we going to achieve by banning islam? At this point I always wonder what we argue about because even if we ban the entire religion because we think that the correct interpretation is evil, by doing so we will just:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
a) alienate those with the "wrong" interpretation who are/were perfectly harmless but are now turned into criminals who also hate us.
b) we basically tell the friendly ones that they do not follow their religion correctly if they do not try to kill us and btw., we also hate them now and make their core beliefs illegal, that can't possibly end badly.
As for fatwas, a quick search seems to turn up a few:
http://www.dw.de/support-for-the-bri...-is/a-17898912
http://www.icna.org/u-s-muslim-relig...nst-terrorism/
http://www.npr.org/2014/09/25/351277...-isis-violence
http://news.sky.com/story/1327540/mu...nst-is-britons
If you are completely unwilling to even consider someone else's view or feelings on a subject, there is really no point in arguing about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
It is however a stance that leads to conflict IMO, because any kind of compromise usually becomes impossible.
But luckily for you, you seem to have the immovable opinion that all conflict only comes from the other side of the argument.
Not relevant to my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
If you think that is what I'm about, I guess there is nothing I can do to change that, it's quite funny though, given that PVC called me an atheist recently and now you call me a bronze age age slavery supporter which I assume is your way of calling me too religious. I'm also waiting for Kadagar to point out that this quote there is just part of a sentence that you quoted out of context. You two seem to agree a lot on this topic, so maybe you'll believe him when he says that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Not too much of a threat. The over-sized archers are annoying, but the chariot generals die like flies so you can route them pretty easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Nice, over 40 burned alive in public execution. Why do I get the feeling they are more desperate then confident. So what is next, top this, kinda hard. Fatigue kicks in when it comes to being shocked by such atrocities. Surprise me, going to burn babies, or use them at a soccer-match. Goal them into a cage and then burn them. Just an idea.
what are we going to achieve by banning islam?” I don’t want to ban Islam or any religions. I want people to realise that religions have it quite easy in term of the law under the pretext there are Faith.
“we basically tell the friendly ones that they do not follow their religion correctly if they do not try to kill us” That is a valid point, but it is not my point, nor the French Muslim Scholars from whom I picked my points. First is to recognise that the killings are in grain in Islam, not alien to Islam. Then, create steps in order to extract from Islam these seeds in making them against Islam. But you can’t achieve this if you keep pretending these words of hate are the words of God. I know the process is difficult, but it is necessary to do so. And according to this scholars, it is possible, as it was done in the past (annulment). The trouble is it will shake the dogma that the Quran was dictated by God and wrote immediately, which is not true as all Muslim scholars know already. But due to the fact that most of the Muslims don’t read/understand Arabic, the actual Muslim Faith is more kind of magic, a little bit like Latin was for the Christians.
“you seem to have the immovable opinion that all conflict only comes from the other side of the argument.” For the moment being, as I notice the facts, the atheists are killed by the faithful. And even if a mad atheist decides to do the same in whatever religious buildings, he/she will not be able to claim legitimacy in a holly book, as atheists by definition have none. He/she will have to claim from another spectrum, probably political, where racism is heavily involved.
And no, I will not compromise with the unacceptable. I will not compromise on the ones who want to shut me up because their feelings are hurt. Or because they feel insulted when they are not. It is my right to tell others that I think their idea are bad, wrong or plainly stupid, as it their right to answer in the same way. I was told I will burn in Hell, so what?
I spoke with a lot of Religious persons, and some of them where Priest in all monotheistic religions, and they accepted my opinion and me their beliefs, and that it. No one felt insulted. Good laughs, sometimes… And many points of agreement...
“If you think that is what I'm about, I guess there is nothing I can do to change that” Well, you decided to go for the Bible, and the bible was/is a book from the Bronze Age, historically speaking.
“now you call me a bronze age age slavery supporter” Nope, I pointed out that the book you link is supporting slavery, so, as such, not really a good reference. So, put back my remark in context and you will see that it was not what I said. I should have been clearer, I concede.
“Not relevant to my point” Yes, but very in mine.
I afraid that your Fatwas are not excepted, if we are kind, the second one. It is better than what we had before (especially if you think of Rushdie) but these are not religious orders to be followed by the faithful, but guidelines based on other texts (for the second one) from the Quran or not.
U on drugs mate? What of what I wrote had anything to do with IQ theories? You read to much into stuff, it seems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Regardless, it is quite charming how you wont acknowledge that IQ isn't spread equally in every part of the globe. For me it would be an absolute shocker if it WAS equal, as that would go against evolution completely...
I am happy knowing East Asians and Jews generally have a higher IQ than people of my own breed... It doesn't trouble me, and I don't see it as problematic.
The problems only come in when you dare to say that black people are on the lower end of the scale... Yeah, THAT is not ok.
But know what, some subgroup MUST be... That's just how the world works :)
The top guys are having doomsday cult vibes. They're doing a lot of quoting the Quran equivalent of the book of relevation. They want to have some kind of retaliation so they can beat it and then create heaven on earth. That's why they don't care about pissing everyone off, because long term stability comes through magic, not reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Could be, but I suspect they are just sadistic maniacs who's shock-value wears off, I wonder what they will come up next. Thd nevitable next shooting in a European town isn't going to have the same effect either anymore as everybody already knows it is comming, and mentally prepared. They are nerfing their only weapon, fear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironside
edit, this guy thinks you are spot on http://www.theatlantic.com/features/...-wants/384980/
Apparently they also amputated hands from people in Iraq for using cellphones. I think best thing would be to send every last one of these IS fellows to afterlife, which they so sorely miss already.
That was a very interesting read, thanks Frags :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I can only recommend others to read it... It's well crafted :)
Indeed, a good article.
Asymmetric warfare at its finest.
They have little to nothing in the way of high tech weaponry and their logistic train could not sustain such tools for long if they did possess them. Their numbers are comparatively few compared to either the local populations or the populations of the various nation-states who oppose ISIS. In any conventional conflict in the style of Iraq 2003 they will lose.
So why the hyper violent acts?
A demonstration of will. If they demonstrate that there is no level to which they would be unwilling to resort, it forces any and all potential opposition to recognize that ISIS can make their soldiers and civilians bleed and die. Some will look at the whole thing and say "____ it, the whole area is just not worth it."
That is how asymmetric warfare works. You hit the soft, doable target and create a sense of unease or terror on the part of the opposing forces. If you can keep it up long enough, the opposition force quits the field in disgust or war weariness. At which point you have won, regardless of the resources you started with.
Into the balance, such televised atrocities appeal to the radicalized or near radicalized persons who are ripe for induction into ISIS service. So it also functions as a "The Few, The Proud, The Marines" recruiting advertisement at the same time. One action generating payoffs in two categories for a little film time focused on gore.
We will see more of this. After ISIS it will be the next group of fringers. This is the contrapuntal harmony to the music of human history. Oh brave new world....
They don't need to do these acts to prove that their land isn't worth it. The fact that they live in it is proof that their land isn't worth it. My only wish is to make it possible to dump our nuts there as well so we don't have to live with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Yeah, as the mayor of Rotterdam said (muslim himself):If you don't like it here just go, but never come backQuote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNcOEOXH9cU
Had a chat with him once he's a really nice guy. More of these please. Or should I say PLEASE!
I admit that having whackoids self-identify and initiate separation from the rest of us carries a certain appeal....Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
I don't know man, it doesn't really seem fair to me to let millions of people live under a theocratic version of North Korea just so Europe can have a place to send its angsty muslim youths...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
I'm not sure whether they will keep millions alive given how they kill people every day for the smallest of reasons. I'm also not sure whether this comparison is fair towards North Korea, so far they don't seem to go out of their way to make people suffer and they haven't revealed expansion plans for the entire planet either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuuvi
It's entirely fair for us to let anything happen. It's not us actively making these things happen, so why should we be held accountable for things that other people do? If we do go out of our way to make the world a better place, then we should be praised for it, but we shouldn't be expected to do it. And if those people are hating us for doing that, then I see no point in doing so, and they can have their own dump of a place to rule. No skin off my nose if they decide to have their own hellhole on earth, as long as they don't interfere with my life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuuvi
And after our wonderful efforts to topple the brutal dictator in Libya, that place is now awash with Islamists chopping the heads of Christians. I wish Saddam and Qaddafi were still in power to keep these nutters down, and thank goodness Assad managed to hang on despite the best efforts of our wonderful Liberal Democratic evangelists.
If Islamic State manages to survive the civil war and establish itself as a fully fledged nation than it will resemble North Korea in a lot of ways. Both IS and North Korea are ruled by ideologically based regimes which allow very little human rights and punish dissent with death.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
IS is interested in governance as well as jihad. It's establishing courts and civil institutions, coining money, and it even gives welfare to the poor. According to its propaganda housing and healthcare in the caliphate are free. If you are Sunni and you follow their laws ISIS will not kill you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUjH...6pcHZ&index=10
https://ia802704.us.archive.org/17/i...5FullEbook.pdf
I'm sorry it was late and that post wasn't written very well. I didn't mean to suggest we need to intervene in Iraq and Syria to stop ISIS, I just strongly disagree with the notion that most Iraqis and Syrians want or deserve to live under ISIS rule, which your post seemed to imply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian