IMMIGRATION thread

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Originally Posted by Husar

Again, do I support the existance of such behavior or the fact that the governments do not always do enough to stop it? Eh, who would?
Should we allow our societies to have areas where noone dares to go? Certainly not... So why do they exist almost anywhere and why do people only complain when they are created by muslims? When did we have the last thread about "Fix the Harlem-no-go-zone already!!!111"? Or does Harlem count as valid cultural diversity?

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People complain more when it gets done by Muslims because Islamist terrorism is an unmatched global problem right now. Or at least so the media reports lead everyone to believe.
Is it always justified? Probably not. But when was the last time an incident took place outside of Israel that could even remotely be termed as 'Jewish terrorism'? Or for that matter an incident outside of India that could be called 'Hindu terrorism' or 'Sikh terrorism'?
I guess it's just that such Muslim ghettos have a higher chance of producing violent extremists than ghettos of any other community. As to why that is, is another issue.

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Originally Posted by rajpoot

People complain more when it gets done by Muslims because Islamist terrorism is an unmatched global problem right now. Or at least so the media reports lead everyone to believe.
Is it always justified? Probably not. But when was the last time an incident took place outside of Israel that could even remotely be termed as 'Jewish terrorism'? Or for that matter an incident outside of India that could be called 'Hindu terrorism' or 'Sikh terrorism'?
I guess it's just that such Muslim ghettos have a higher chance of producing violent extremists than ghettos of any other community. As to why that is, is another issue.

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And such ghettos in Belgium were the breeding ground of at least some of the Paris attackers, while it's a known strategy for returnees to relocate to safe houses to plan and prepare such attacks. Crying discrimination is a bit dumb when you're separately putting in place all the pieces that allow for easy attack by ISIS, whilst refusing to see the whole picture that you're putting together.

I mentioned an anecdote of something that happened to me a few years ago. I was walking home from visiting my wife in hospital, when a car full of 'asian' youths pulled up beside me and started hurling obscenities at me.

"Whites aren't allowed around here" just about sums it up as politely as I can.

Is that good enough for Idaho? Probably not. Then again he doesnt live where I do.

Whats the answer? I hav'nt a clue.

The OP shows the very well reported exploits of a 30-50 strong group of people. Once called Al Majaroun, previously called Hisbutahir, and now called any number of things. They are total nutcases. They are operating in the East end 20 years ago doing the same things. It wasn't so newsworthy then. Over the last 20 years they have done loads of this stuff. More than is reported in the OP. Still doesn't impress me. And the fact that they are tolerated in the area is a sign of how inconsequential they are, not how effective they are.

I reckon I could walk round the east end of London every day for a year and do little more than laugh at them. It's a dramatic and exciting story and is eagerly received by a certain audience.

IA - you are intimidated by some young men in your area. That is unpleasant, and I personally would have picked up a brick and put it through the car window. I wouldn't, however, have come to the conclusion that we are living in end times. Get some perspective.

Most of the news sources in the OP are second hand, anonymous or historical. I fail to see any evidence of no go zones. Except in the febrile imaginings of journalists and right wingers.

We don't have an actual place that's a no go zone still. Just rumours that there is one, and shadowy references to where it might be.

They do seem to exist in Sweden.
I remember Kadagar mentioned it in his 'goodbye' thread.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

IA - you are intimidated by some young men in your area. That is unpleasant, and I personally would have picked up a brick and put it through the car window.

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I was irresistibly reminded of this -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLdIKlXl3ZA

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Is that good enough for Idaho? No. But it'll be interesting to talk about.

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Called it.

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Originally Posted by rajpoot

They do seem to exist in Sweden.
I remember Kadagar mentioned it in his 'goodbye' thread.

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Wow, I knew it was bad but I under the impression they were unofficial;

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Islam expert Andrew C. McCarthy has offered a lucid clarification of what no-go zones are and of what they are not:

"[N]o sensible person is saying that state authorities are prohibited from entering no-go zones as a matter of law. The point is that they are severely discouraged from entering as a matter of fact — and the degree of discouragement varies directly with the density of the Muslim population and its radical component. Ditto for non-Muslim lay people: It is not that they are not permitted to enter these enclaves; it is that they avoid entering because doing so is dangerous if they are flaunting Western modes of dress and conduct.

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gah, double post.

You found a range of disparate and unclear examples on a topic of great media attention, all spread across many years. Damn right it's not good enough. Maxim of the scientific method: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Your evidence isn't even ordinary.

Andrew C. Mccarthy is a right wing nutjob. A self serving, book toting reactionary ball bag whose opinions I trust as much as Anjem Choudary's.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

I wasnt actually expecting someone to deflect that hard. It is rather sad really.

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I was expecting a more detailed answer so I could explain what part you misread, but it seems that we will just have to agree that you misread.

Also define "deflect" in this context, as I'm not entirely sure what it refers to.

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Originally Posted by rajpoot

People complain more when it gets done by Muslims because Islamist terrorism is an unmatched global problem right now. Or at least so the media reports lead everyone to believe.
Is it always justified? Probably not. But when was the last time an incident took place outside of Israel that could even remotely be termed as 'Jewish terrorism'? Or for that matter an incident outside of India that could be called 'Hindu terrorism' or 'Sikh terrorism'?
I guess it's just that such Muslim ghettos have a higher chance of producing violent extremists than ghettos of any other community. As to why that is, is another issue.

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Unmatched how? Does it kill more people per day than cancer?
As for the comparison to other communities, did you adjust for socioneconomic factors?
It is true that at the moment the muslims seem to spawn lots of terrorism, but as Fragony says, nothing we can do.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

You found a range of disparate and unclear examples on a topic of great media attention, all spread across many years. Damn right it's not good enough. Maxim of the scientific method: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

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Even Husar admits the existance of quote 'neighborhoods where the immigrant-inhabitants are not very nice to the police or even the "locals"' yet you find this Extraordinary?

Testimony from experts, quotes from sufferers, news reports of events and situations, all good enough for most but it's something you dont want to hear, so you dismiss it. What would be sufficient evidence for you? Video?

The article which I doubt you gave a glance outside what I quoted has an entire section full of them:

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A video showing a group of Muslim men attacking a white couple in Walsall, situated just eight miles from Birmingham, can be viewed here. A video showing Muslim youth attacking white girls in Ashton-under-Lyne in Greater Manchester can be viewed here.

A video showing Muslim youth attacking police in East London with rocket fireworks can be viewed here. A video showing Muslim youth interrupting a television interview in Burnley in Lancashire can be viewed here. A video showing a Muslim threatening to kill a man filming street preaching in England can be viewed here.

A video showing Muslims attempting to enforce Sharia law on the streets of London can be viewed here. A video showing Muslims attacking an American student after walking around East London drinking a bottle of beer can be viewed here.

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Or perhaps you would like a documentary from our very own BBC?:

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A BBC documentary about "white flight" in the East London Borough of Barking and Dagenham can be viewed here. A BBC Panorama documentary about separation and segregation between Muslim Asians and white Britons in Blackburn in Lancashire can be viewed here, here and here. BBC reports on "white flight" in Luton can be viewed here and here.

A one-hour BBC documentary about extremism in Luton can be viewed here. A 20-minute documentary, entitled "London's Holy Turf War" can be viewed here. A 25-minute documentary about rising tensions between Asians and West Indians can be viewed here.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

Andrew C. Mccarthy is a right wing nutjob. A self serving, book toting reactionary ball bag whose opinions I trust as much as Anjem Choudary's.

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That is a matter of belief not supported by the data. Rather ad hominem attack which renders your argument invalid.

Use a bit of reason and logic for a change. Particularly if you try to cloak your self in maximums.

And now for something completely different: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlSknRlQSqs

You've linked to lots of videos of young men acting like a***h*les, but still not heard the name of an area that is "no go for non Muslims". Still waiting.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Also define "deflect" in this context, as I'm not entirely sure what it refers to.

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Ignoring the article's contents to bash the author, going into a thread about one topic and whining that it isnt talking about another. Admitting you didnt even read the evidence being proffered yet expecting to be taken seriously when you dismiss them. These are frequent devices used to do what we call: derailing the conversation.

I was verbally bollocked for doing it several times over the last half decade in this very forum, I am very dissapointed that you would be stooping to them just because you dislike the subject.

You might as well keep your mouth shut, it would add the same amount to the conversation.

I enjoyed being the lone voice against the afghan and Iraq invasions for reasons that are now obvious.

I enjoy being the lone voice against the current surge of ignorance and bubbling xenophobia.

I don't enjoy being right really, but this was all predictable, and predicted

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Originally Posted by Husar

Unmatched how? Does it kill more people per day than cancer?
As for the comparison to other communities, did you adjust for socioneconomic factors?
It is true that at the moment the muslims seem to spawn lots of terrorism, but as Fragony says, nothing we can do.

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Actually according to stats from 2002 the thing that kills most people is one or the other form of cardiovascular disease (I would've put my money on road accidents but hey...)
But that would only be a reasonable comparison the day a cardiovascular disease totes an AK47 and a suicide vest and kills hundreds of people according to a well planned attack.

As for socioeconomic factors, like I said the 'whys' are a completely different discussion. I'm sure there are many many reasons which would indirectly point towards how these people were wronged and mishandled in some way or another by someone or maybe were a result of unavoidable circumstances. But none of that excuses the current state of affairs.
And I agree, nothing can probably be done about it at this point of time. But nonetheless acknowledging that there is a problem is necessary.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

I enjoy being the lone voice against the current surge of ignorance and bubbling xenophobia.

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If you're talking about this thread in particular I'd say you're being a little harsh....is it xenophobic to discuss a problem supported by facts?
I've always been for tolerance and I'd be the first person to speak up if someone paints the whole religion with a single brush, but you cannot deny facts point to something being amiss.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

You've linked to lots of videos of young men acting like a***h*les, but still not heard the name of an area that is "no go for non Muslims". Still waiting.

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No, I only linked to one video of a guy crossdressing to prove a point.

British Police seem to think there are no-go areas or areas where one need heightened awareness, so I suggest asking an officer on the street. Pretending they don’t exist will not make them go away.

I wouldn’t call it xenophobia. That is a fear of all foreigners. Most people I have run across are more specific than that. They are mistrustful of Muslim immigrants. It wasn’t the case until the immigrants themselves began to call for Sharia Law to override their national or local laws. Something they rather brought upon themselves.

Of course there is some reason for concern in that if you believe in any form of civil liberties. Oh, and the concepts of Jihad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERou_Q5l9Gw

Still no non-Muslim no go areas.

I want a postcode even. Somewhere that I can speak to people I know nearby. Our places I can review census records.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

Still no non-Muslim no go areas.

I want a postcode even. Somewhere that I can speak to people I know nearby. Our places I can review census records.

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So far as I can tell, it is the belief of police forces in several European Nations. It can neither be proven or disproven with available data. Police say there are and politicians say there aren’t. If you weigh the argument on likely truthfulness it leaves politicians at a distinct disadvantage.

If you are insistent on real firsthand research to prove or disprove it, as I said, contact a police officer in a likely area. Cities operating Sharia Courts might be a good starting place.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

The OP shows the very well reported exploits of a 30-50 strong group of people. Once called Al Majaroun, previously called Hisbutahir, and now called any number of things. They are total nutcases. They are operating in the East end 20 years ago doing the same things. It wasn't so newsworthy then. Over the last 20 years they have done loads of this stuff. More than is reported in the OP. Still doesn't impress me. And the fact that they are tolerated in the area is a sign of how inconsequential they are, not how effective they are.

I reckon I could walk round the east end of London every day for a year and do little more than laugh at them. It's a dramatic and exciting story and is eagerly received by a certain audience.

IA - you are intimidated by some young men in your area. That is unpleasant, and I personally would have picked up a brick and put it through the car window. I wouldn't, however, have come to the conclusion that we are living in end times. Get some perspective.

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I'm probably unlike you, in that I've actually walked around the east end of London. I didn't fear for my life the last time I did so, nor would I fear for my life if I do so today. However, in combination with the known radicalisation of Muslim youths around Europe, and the known ISIS strategy of forming bases away from the host state's eyes from which to plan terrorist attacks (and indeed, had already carried out one such successful attack), then it would be negligent and idiotic in the extreme to pooh pooh such concerns, in concert with all the other stuff going on.

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

That is a matter of belief not supported by the data. Rather ad hominem attack which renders your argument invalid.

Use a bit of reason and logic for a change. Particularly if you try to cloak your self in maximums.

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Idaho enjoys ad hominems when it doesn't affect his capacity to preach on what's going in east London from his home in Exeter. It's especially biting when he preaches thus to someone who actually lives in east London, unlike him.

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

So far as I can tell, it is the belief of police forces in several European Nations. It can neither be proven or disproven with available data. Police say there are and politicians say there aren’t. If you weigh the argument on likely truthfulness it leaves politicians at a distinct disadvantage.

If you are insistent on real firsthand research to prove or disprove it, as I said, contact a police officer in a likely area. Cities operating Sharia Courts might be a good starting place.

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It's something reported second hand by media keen to inflame and dramatise. I'm sure they have no problem finding someone with rightist leanings in the British police force to oblige them.

Shariah "courts" are common enough in this country. But are usually just places for religious advice. Orthodox jews have similar.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Idaho enjoys ad hominems when it doesn't affect his capacity to preach on what's going in east London from his home in Exeter. It's especially biting when he preaches thus to someone who actually lives in east London, unlike him.

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Oh go on then. I tried to resist, but you've baited me into it. I lived in East London (Hackney) for 7 years. I visit London about once a month. I know it pretty well.

There are a few 'best avoid' areas I know of, but it has nothing to do with ethnic diversity or Muslims. They are generally cripplingly deprived areas where industry has collapsed, stricken with poverty, experience high-crime rates, high rates of physical and mental health issues, and lost of prospects. It is also home to a transient population who move around, usually coming in from big cities like Manchester.

Unfortunately, it is not that the people are 'bad' or 'evil', it is a sorry state where they try to survive and make something of their lives by trying to find meaning or desire to live by desperate measures such as psychoactive substances.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

There are a few 'best avoid' areas I know of, but it has nothing to do with ethnic diversity or Muslims. They are generally cripplingly deprived areas where industry has collapsed, stricken with poverty, experience high-crime rates, high rates of physical and mental health issues, and lost of prospects. It is also home to a transient population who move around, usually coming in from big cities like Manchester.

Unfortunately, it is not that the people are 'bad' or 'evil', it is a sorry state where they try to survive and make something of their lives by trying to find meaning or desire to live by desperate measures such as psychoactive substances.

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Social deprivation should be addressed. But we shouldn't ignore the more immediate problem of the known strategy of ISIS to exploit such conditions to plan and execute terrorist attacks. It's happened already, and there is every indication that they're planning more, and no indication that they're stopping. To say that it's the general fault of society is to foster inertia and do nothing, which is to maintain the environment that these enemies (and they're deserving of that description) rely on. Social deprivation is a threat to society, but to deny the specific threat of Islamists in these conditions is to allow them free rein in the immediate term, which is what they want and what we don't want.

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

Reduce the number of police cars and increase the number of foot patrols.

Police Foot patrols reduce crime whereas cars merely catch criminals.

The most important thing in these areas is to ensure the law is enforced. If you can force the immigrant groups to accept that the law is present you can make them fear it and encourage them to appeal to it rather than mob justice.

And yes - everyone should fear the Law.

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That is literally a cop out. You’re shifting responsibility to neglected sectors of the community. Thugs live on fear and fear mongering, especially ones that are an existential threat to the country. I’ve said this before all this does is result in a tweeked out Muslim version of NWA that will follow the ol European strategy of harboring hatred until that pent up aggression blows up in your face. It’s easy to say “more foot patrols” but that is unlikely to prevent a social movement with grievance narratives based on fact. You can accuse Muslims all you want of viewing everyone else as “sub-human” but there is a great impact on these communities after they see the UK assisting in the disintegration of Iraq, Libya, Syria, and now in Yemen supporting the coalition forces. Whether it's your ancestral homeland or just seeing people sharing your beliefs dying, there are big reasons for the state of victimhood since they are marginalized communities.

This is exactly what orgs like IS want, whose transnational strategy is nothing but deliberately making life harder for Muslims abroad.

People should be protected by the law.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

Your evidence isn't even ordinary.

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His evidence isn't even evidence.