Sorceror 17er Game Thread

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Originally Posted by Monstrdude

Feels off to me

Caveat I don't think I know you that well

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does this post spew Sleep as town? Kinda maybe thinking it does.

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Originally Posted by hollowkatt

does this post spew Sleep as town? Kinda maybe thinking it does.

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mostly b/c if they were w/w together this post doesn't need to exist at all as there are better ways to distance than this.

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Originally Posted by ladd

i applied it more to turbos/mashes than normal games (and I also noticed it first in my own wolf games iirc)

sometimes as a wolf you see a post where you feel like you either 1) have to answer to or 2) have a smart answer to but to look like you didnt just pop in to answer that post you then also latch onto a random other post that happened before



i do think ender reaction to zack/mine (but especially zack really) push is the wolfiest thing in an overall p villagery thread


newcomb seems an obvious villager imo

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immediately before this post cape drops a post town reading ender, then ladd comes in with "no ender bad" but no vote and no oomph. Obvs ladd doesn't want ender to go over here, but is cape trying to defend and ladd trying to attack so that ender goes deeper as "not quite townie but high (less sus) in the poe" position?

I dunno. Something about how cape being contrarian on ender rubs me wrong.

might just be doing that thing where I confbias though

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Originally Posted by nebjiamn

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Originally Posted by Cape90

I really don't like that HK post, EXCEPT for the No Chop thing, like that felt towny to me, but the whole forced content thing, I think the read is a little weak sauce. I kinda been treating this game like a light game so that I don't spam the thread with posts, especially since there is only 30 posts per page, I feel like that just encourages more words/things said per post versus spam posting. :shrug:

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maybe i'm a sucker, but that didn't feel forced at all to me. i asked for a live lookin on his process and he answered, like, absurdly quickly, and to get such a detailed insight into how HK was reading the game/ender felt very very transparent. part of this is a timing read that I don't think you can catch on re-read, but it really wasl ike a 2-4 minute turnaround from me posting (inb4 its 30 irl minutes) and HK responding there

i think the underlying part here is that HK has/had a process in evaluating ender and even if it wasn't something i found convincing or truly AI for ender, it toold me more about HK which is what i wanted anyway

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So this was a thing that happened as well.

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

Uh lemme parse my thoughts into lists.

I dislike Ladd's treatment of me particularly. The read on me (The whole "Backwards quoting" thing) feels entirely forced and also liiiike, unrealistic.

Raskol is obvious scum because of his lack of posts.

Sunbae I was leaning townish but the whole Monstr/Cuth read feels like he realised he fucked up and backed up. Pending explanation that makes my brain do the good wobly jelly I'm going to stare at him.

Monstr feels weaksauce.

I was townreading Cape but the whole Sleep thing is making me wonder.

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ladd flipped wolf

Raskol I think has been town but I really want him to show up so we can talk.

Sunbae flipped town
Monstr flipped wolf

cuth hasn't flipped

cape read here is weird b/c there's no explanation for it yeah? Like he explains Ladd, Rask, Monstr/Cuth, but Cape just gets "the sleep thing makes me wonder" and that's markedly different to the way he's addressed the rest of them.

Monstr had some sus at the time. Ladd otoh was fairly not talked about right about now fwiw.

meh

one thing I have noticed (I'm re-reading the entire game from D1 beginning btw) is that most of Enders interactions are with the dead, Cape, myself, and Cuth. Very few thus far with Sleep, Katze, Dobby, or Raskol.

not at all sure what that means.

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Originally Posted by katze

👍

currently thinking it's best for both of you (@EnderWiggin primarily) to focus on other avenues than eachother

ender: i think HK is p villagery and think your read on him is... it kinda feels like you feel obligated to have A Read there in a similar vein to how i feel when i play with 1-2 FoLers in a playerlist? i dunno. i think you're wrong, and it's souring my view on you

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I feel like I have to have a feeling about this post.

Sometimes town says "hey you two stop sniping at each other and see if you can find common ground".
Sometimes it's a wolf playing peacemaker.

I think though katze is town and my interpretation of this post is that katze is trying to do the whole "find common ground thing" because the back and forth between ender and myself wasn't acrimonious per se.

Also katze I think is the type of wolf to hard defend if they can get away with it whereas here katze is using it to express some amount of suspicion on ender where it really didn't need to exist. Ender for the most part was under the radar except for me so katze wading in here doesn't really make sense from wolf?katze perspective. There's no need to do so, I'm not a threat to enders position even as people were widely town reading me.

anyways I'm going to bed now. Tag me if there's anything you wanna talk about.

oof dead thread is dead.

I'm out for most of the day today, will check back in maybe 7ish hours

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Originally Posted by Dobby

Like what kind of sentence is that even "if you're gonna grief and kill my clears" lmao, how is that griefing when... cuth hasn't really been considered cleared by anyone but you and its for like, gut reasons? I cleared cuth as well because of tone and interaction with monstr iirc so it's kinda not fair writing that lol

It's a game of mafia, saying don't touch my clear and then vote parking and implying you don't have much interest in trying to skew stuff towards your preference is... idk you might feel demotivated but that's not how to play the game tbh. It's unlikely anyone else will vote cape, are you just gonna park and afk?

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Look Dobby, I really think that Cuth's interactions with wolves look like Cuth doesn't have TMI on who the wolves are. I have really tried looking at katze posts but there is just about nothing all that clearing early on in the game for them so I think they are doing this because they are just mafia who want to go for the easy push

Vote: katze

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Originally Posted by hollowkatt

I feel like I have to have a feeling about this post.

Sometimes town says "hey you two stop sniping at each other and see if you can find common ground".
Sometimes it's a wolf playing peacemaker.

I think though katze is town and my interpretation of this post is that katze is trying to do the whole "find common ground thing" because the back and forth between ender and myself wasn't acrimonious per se.

Also katze I think is the type of wolf to hard defend if they can get away with it whereas here katze is using it to express some amount of suspicion on ender where it really didn't need to exist. Ender for the most part was under the radar except for me so katze wading in here doesn't really make sense from wolf?katze perspective. There's no need to do so, I'm not a threat to enders position even as people were widely town reading me.

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Hm. This might be a goodish point though but I should look at the fuller context there

I look at what katze said to ender and I think it's still like, possible that's a w/w interactions though as I have seen wolves try to distance themselves like that. I was trying to look at early posts earlier from katze, but man is it super inconvenient

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Originally Posted by hollowkatt

cape read here is weird b/c there's no explanation for it yeah? Like he explains Ladd, Rask, Monstr/Cuth, but Cape just gets "the sleep thing makes me wonder" and that's markedly different to the way he's addressed the rest of them.

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This is literally town points to me. Like majorly so. Wolves love to make weird and hedgy reads on town, it's because they know that I am town and that their mafias are mafias. This really doesn't incriminate me like you think it does

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Originally Posted by hollowkatt

immediately before this post cape drops a post town reading ender, then ladd comes in with "no ender bad" but no vote and no oomph. Obvs ladd doesn't want ender to go over here, but is cape trying to defend and ladd trying to attack so that ender goes deeper as "not quite townie but high (less sus) in the poe" position?

I dunno. Something about how cape being contrarian on ender rubs me wrong.

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I thought they were playing like the other Sorc game I was in with them. But they were also notably less jokey, but I still thought they were town based on content

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Originally Posted by hollowkatt

would cape fake not knowing ender = blade if they're paired?

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Okay just gonna say, I think this is really NAI

Rundown: it's katze or Cuth but Cuth has better interactions with mafia methinks

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Originally Posted by Cape90

Look Dobby, I really think that Cuth's interactions with wolves look like Cuth doesn't have TMI on who the wolves are. I have really tried looking at katze posts but there is just about nothing all that clearing early on in the game for them so I think they are doing this because they are just mafia who want to go for the easy push

Vote: katze

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/90...ality=lossless

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Originally Posted by Dobby

It's unlikely anyone else will vote cape, are you just gonna park and afk?

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everybody in the world is trying to kill someone i have cleared if i were mafia i'd be very happy bout that

instead im choosing to continue defending them in favor of killing you, who i think is way wolfier by play and by meta

im ignoring the negative gut feelings to this omgus post because tbh i expected it

anyway i don't really want to defend myself because frankly i don't care that much if i go over

with that said im just going to drop a selfmeta "if i look bad earlygame i'm probably town, lmao" and go back to playing video games without backing up that statement at all

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Originally Posted by katze

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/90...ality=lossless



everybody in the world is trying to kill someone i have cleared if i were mafia i'd be very happy bout that

instead im choosing to continue defending them in favor of killing you, who i think is way wolfier by play and by meta

im ignoring the negative gut feelings to this omgus post because tbh i expected it

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I don't think meta is ever going to be a way to clear me and I really mean it. I genuinely can't tel you what would be clearing for me in any game in isolation except for that I just fight it with my everything and sometimes get there sometimes not.


And i think the issue this game atp is that the last wolf is in katze/cape/cuth and we can kill 2 but the third is in f3 which is an issue

And the way you're approach this point of the game as well as some bits honestly makes me consider you over the others. Youre like slowly planting seeds to include more ppl in the poe and the way you're approaching a cuth yeet and saying you have tinfoil or whatever to like stall until th point where you're in a probable f3 is just, good wolfplay and enables you to win at that stage. It's kinda how one would have to play it as wolf at this stage and you're doing exactly that so if I go with gut i 100% vote you. I don't think I'll vote cape today at all. Might go cuth but I want rask to post some as well but idk how much that'd affect my vote tbqh

And like, whenever I try to present a read or thoughts recently you've kinda shut it down pretty resolutely which makes it tougher to just actively share stuff and make cases and that's just also not towny at all.

Main issue is that it's still a super busy weekend for me, good thing nobody is posting I guess, but not really.

I'm just gonna do what I believe in for now vote: katze

If it's 2 out of 3 it's prolly katze cuth in some order for me

that post was replying to cape

i was quoting you because "kat is going for the easy way out" when you're telling me that nobody else is going to vote cape was a :really: moment

the fact you're (or anyone) clearing cape over cuth is legitimately baffling to me and the fact that he's my top wolfread and your trajectory is "take cape to f3" is imo awful

...man that post is living in my head rent free because i've been the most ironclad about my PoE out of anyone alive and you're accusing me of trying to expand it when you are giving me a free invitation to expand it by wanting to kill cuth while my true PoE has been 2 people for the last day and my "this is my PoE for lock" has been fairly stable

sorry in advance for being annoying about this but man if cape is alive in f3 i will be angy

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Originally Posted by katze

the fact you're (or anyone) clearing cape over cuth is legitimately baffling to me and the fact that he's my top wolfread and your trajectory is "take cape to f3" is imo awful

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Idk if I wrote the easy way out but rhe way you're playing it is literally how you need to play to get to f3 and have a chance tbh


Idk where you get that I'm clearing cape but I dotn know if I'll find where cape goes before you/cuth. I man if we get to tomorrow I will not just lock someone in and leave, I'll have time by then (tomorrow gameday) and I'm not just gonna lock smth in and hope for the best tbh

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Originally Posted by katze

...man that post is living in my head rent free because i've been the most ironclad about my PoE out of anyone alive and you're accusing me of trying to expand it when you are giving me a free invitation to expand it by wanting to kill cuth while my true PoE has been 2 people for the last day and my "this is my PoE for lock" has been fairly stable

sorry in advance for being annoying about this but man if cape is alive in f3 i will be angy

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I was down to go cape for a long time but uh it's still a pretty unique poe you had and thats going to be hard to just be convinced by "I believe in this i want this to happen" or smth

I'm also sounding like very harsh/mean but no hard feeling it's just I'm having a hard time being convinced by the stuff you've written. I had my own case on cape for a fairly long bit and it kinda just, fwll behind other things that made more sense

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Originally Posted by Dobby

Idk if I wrote the easy way out but rhe way you're playing it is literally how you need to play to get to f3 and have a chance tbh

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by refusing to let cuth die?

by barely defending myself at all?

like... i could explain how i usually play situations like this as a wolf but instead i'll ask you this: if you kill me today, will you vote cape out tomorrow over cuth?

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Originally Posted by katze

by refusing to let cuth die?

by barely defending myself at all?

like... i could explain how i usually play situations like this as a wolf but instead i'll ask you this: if you kill me today, will you vote cape out tomorrow over cuth?

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Self defense hasn't been really needed tbh, and what you"usually do" doesn't really skew me in any direction - I mean, would it do it for you re someone else? Prolly not. So yeah, I can't really say your legacy would make me blindly listen to your reads. If so, cuth would be the clear vote today cuz of benneh/rask. So yeah, if you don't make a clear case that makes a lot more sense I'm gonna have to go eith what I have on cape

I'll prolly start blank slate with whoever is alive tomorrow, its f5 and I'm planning to just wim it up insanely tbqpph (pp stands for peepee poopoo), I'll see if I have time but irl tomorrow is packed as well so I'm gonna have to do with what I have

I know you've talked about cuth and cape but the stuff you wrote yesterday, my general memory of it is just "cape doesn't feel towny, cuth feels towny" and notch more grounds for your reads, and it's not enough to make me go yea I trust kitty ze

I'm also at a graduation party and not much of what I write prolly makes sense so sorry about that I shouldn't post at all tbh

Love u kat

alrighty then

so basically unless i make a massive body of work explaining why i think cape is a wolf then you're just going to sleepwalk me -> cuth and let cape into f3 despite nobody reallllllly doing anything to convince me cuth is a hit while i have several reasons to think he's not one

im not going to make a body of work because i'm lazy and that's not how i play

shrug, i think you're town so i'm not going to get angry at this, i think the PoE is still winning as long as people don't second guess themselves in F3

but deep down there's a part of me that feels entitled enough to towncase themselves and im sad i can't just ping benneh to godread me tbh

have fun at your party! <3

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Originally Posted by katze

alrighty then

so basically unless i make a massive body of work explaining why i think cape is a wolf then you're just going to sleepwalk me -> cuth and let cape into f3 despite nobody reallllllly doing anything to convince me cuth is a hit while i have several reasons to think he's not one

im not going to make a body of work because i'm lazy and that's not how i play

shrug, i think you're town so i'm not going to get angry at this, i think the PoE is still winning as long as people don't second guess themselves in F3

but deep down there's a part of me that feels entitled enough to towncase themselves and im sad i can't just ping benneh to godread me tbh

have fun at your party! <3

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No not massove body of work but something past "he's just wolfy"? I don't think that's too much to ask if you think it's the gamewinning solve, because whatever you're talking about I don't think it weighs that hard and your motivation for it hasn't really bee clear?

I think I townread cuth for most of the reasons you've talked qbout but I think keeping a townread at this point based on that (unless you've reevaluate and stuff) is a bit of a unwarranted freebie for him tbqpph

If all you have is feels to go on then that's fine too


Idk if I explained it but I think the way you're playing now is exactly how a wolf needs to play to get to f3 and have a chance. If you don't follow the same path as a lot of others (ie not have "unique reads you deep down know you won't make happen) then you can keep saying nobody listens to me and it won't look weird. If you agree on cuth for example, changing target tomorrow and then the day after without looking sus yourself and getting yeeted will be really hard if not impossible

I don't think that trail of thought is hard to get but I do get that it doesn't feel worth trying to towncase yourself or scything but idk like there should be a way for us (all of us) to try and solve this past saying this is my splve do what you want bai

ugh

okay im just going to tell a story

in dragonvale mafia (i was mafia, you've probably heard of this game) a very similar situation to this one happened, where a player i was hard shielding was getting tinfoiled and i was in a situation where i knew it was a ML i kind of needed to win given my position in thread and, well, numerically

so i spent that entire day phase kinda twiddling my fingers trying to figure out how to get him killed without shooting myself in the foot by either outting myself to him or outting myself to everyone else

and like, i feel like if you read that day phase it's really obvious i was struggling to do so there, because my wolf style of "look good" and my wolf agenda of "you need this kill" were in direct conflict and my alive wolf partner at that point was negative utility for both of these reasons

ironically im 99% sure illario (a villager in DV) has pushed v!me after that game for treating people weirdly in this situation too but thats not important

my point is that i think cuth is clear in a vast majority of worlds and i think that the last wolf really, really wants him to get MLed this game. i've explicitly fought to keep cape alive because i know he's a villagery villager as time progresses and is prone to being wrongly read in the early game (as i was hosting a game where this literally happened that ended some point during this game)

and... he has not been villagery. when my only reason for not wanting him dead sooner was because i knew he could clear himself if V and he is not doing that then... well, i feel like that speaks for itself?

i guess i'm just prone to being scumread whenever i have any opinion when it comes to "a player i townread is no longer being townread" because i think my read still holds

so i'll just throw this at you and check the thread later cause i'll prob be out for a while

why is cuth a wolf

why is his EoD1 not clearing

why is he a higher priority than cape

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Originally Posted by katze

ugh

okay im just going to tell a story

in dragonvale mafia (i was mafia, you've probably heard of this game) a very similar situation to this one happened, where a player i was hard shielding was getting tinfoiled and i was in a situation where i knew it was a ML i kind of needed to win given my position in thread and, well, numerically

so i spent that entire day phase kinda twiddling my fingers trying to figure out how to get him killed without shooting myself in the foot by either outting myself to him or outting myself to everyone else

and like, i feel like if you read that day phase it's really obvious i was struggling to do so there, because my wolf style of "look good" and my wolf agenda of "you need this kill" were in direct conflict and my alive wolf partner at that point was negative utility for both of these reasons

ironically im 99% sure illario (a villager in DV) has pushed v!me after that game for treating people weirdly in this situation too but thats not important

my point is that i think cuth is clear in a vast majority of worlds and i think that the last wolf really, really wants him to get MLed this game. i've explicitly fought to keep cape alive because i know he's a villagery villager as time progresses and is prone to being wrongly read in the early game (as i was hosting a game where this literally happened that ended some point during this game)

and... he has not been villagery. when my only reason for not wanting him dead sooner was because i knew he could clear himself if V and he is not doing that then... well, i feel like that speaks for itself?

i guess i'm just prone to being scumread whenever i have any opinion when it comes to "a player i townread is no longer being townread" because i think my read still holds

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I think it's still.. uh.

I think we are moving past eachotehre a bit in this convo but

1) my doubts/"svumread" on you is pretty independent from your cuth read. The little that can be related to it is the stuff I've said about how you need to play to get far in this as wolf and I really bieve it'd the only way you can play it if you want to win as wolf. You need to have a plan and it kinda needs to be this plan if you don't want it to end up a lottery thingie

I think with what you're saying, and we kill cape today. What then? Would you reconsider cuth?

I literally was inthe same position as you the other day. I had the same arguments, monstr interactions, eod 1, etc. Despite the monty unvite, you just.... preferred Cape. A lot of things has made me go wait kat has tmi or is just really cool and good at mafia, but prolly both tbh

Idk if you saw the cases on cugh but they explain it a lot better than me. Its also tough because cuth activity has gone from fairly high to basically nothing. I know this isn't supposed to be a high effort game but it makes it tougher. I have no idea where uths mind is and I haven't for a good portion of the later half of this game.


So also, you position where you say that I scumread you because of your cape read, is just... not true and I'd feel a lot better if that got acknowledged in some way lol

okay i got distracted by the pokemon mash ending so hi sooner than expected

i don't really think this is how i'd play this game as a wolf, personally... i don't want to address that too much cause i don't want to turn this into a game where i stubbornly defend myself all day

i wanted cape over monty because, and i explained this at some point (apparently ISOs on this site are only the last 100 posts which is silly but at a glance its not in my last 100 posts) that i thought cape was liklier a wolf than monty because, throughout this entire game, i have had approximately zero concrete reasons to find cape as town, while i (at EoD1) had found monty to have a very villagery tinfoil and he also had the EoD1 ladd vote in his favor

if cape dies today and flips V then id legitimately be pretty shocked. i don't know if i'd go cuth next, i'd consider it for the #deadvillagers but idk. i feel pretty strongly rn that cuth is "the misyeet that the last wolf needs" and im "the misyeet that the last wolf doesnt have to fight for"

i've seen the cases on cuth and i don't recall any of it moving me, if you or someone else would dig up those posts for me i'd reread them but aorn i have little interest in finding them

also i do think your scumread on me is mostly due to my positioning on this, so... i'm not going to take that back? if you'd like to explain why you think i'm mafia then feel free, but if you do then i'll address that instead ig.

If i fewl up for it slash have time I will

I qlso don't think monty should get any cred for his close on ladd considering when it came and the unvote - sure he was town but I still think its in isolation extremely wolfy eod tbh


Regarding cuth being the misyeet the last woolf needs, I just don't u derstand it. It makes more sense to push someone that's not in the immediate poe, the immediate poe gets cleared out and then you can say I told you so now in f3 let's ypink cape because I've been pushing him for three days

Idk if I can convey it in any other way but yeah

Ye I can pull out some posts I wrote when I tried to deep dive into wolf interactions and eod and stuff and also the relevant benneh slash dead villagers stuff but it'd be as much work for me as for others

And i want rask to join soon and write about where he's qt, and not q 50 post by post catchup slash push of cuth, but like, more concentrated this is what and why

And no my scumread on you isn't mostly based on your positioning on this. It's part of it but not everything. Don't take it back tbh


I just anticipate that if activity level increases it'll end up with all 7 of us butting heads and not leading anywhere based on yesterday as well, it's why I made the post compiling everyone's poes and stuff but idk

I just want to solve this tbh

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Originally Posted by Dobby

I think it's still.. uh.

I think we are moving past eachotehre a bit in this convo but

1) my doubts/"svumread" on you is pretty independent from your cuth read. The little that can be related to it is the stuff I've said about how you need to play to get far in this as wolf and I really bieve it'd the only way you can play it if you want to win as wolf. You need to have a plan and it kinda needs to be this plan if you don't want it to end up a lottery thingie

I think with what you're saying, and we kill cape today. What then? Would you reconsider cuth?

I literally was inthe same position as you the other day. I had the same arguments, monstr interactions, eod 1, etc. Despite the monty unvite, you just.... preferred Cape. A lot of things has made me go wait kat has tmi or is just really cool and good at mafia, but prolly both tbh

Idk if you saw the cases on cugh but they explain it a lot better than me. Its also tough because cuth activity has gone from fairly high to basically nothing. I know this isn't supposed to be a high effort game but it makes it tougher. I have no idea where uths mind is and I haven't for a good portion of the later half of this game.


So also, you position where you say that I scumread you because of your cape read, is just... not true and I'd feel a lot better if that got acknowledged in some way lol

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I think wolf katze doesn't try to steer the thread towards cape when everyone and their brother wanted monte. My POE is basically cape/cuth and frankly don't care which goes first.

I think katze has been town, I think dobby has been town.
I'm deathly afraid of Raskol wolf here and desperately want him to show up and start posting. I know he sometimes has IRL things that happen that keep him away from the thread. I do not wolf read Rask not being here.

I don't think it's Sleep either.

Players Votes

Cape90 2 (katze, hollowkatt)
katze 2 (Cape90, Dobby)

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Originally Posted by hollowkatt

I think wolf katze doesn't try to steer the thread towards cape when everyone and their brother wanted monte. My POE is basically cape/cuth and frankly don't care which goes first.

I think katze has been town, I think dobby has been town.
I'm deathly afraid of Raskol wolf here and desperately want him to show up and start posting. I know he sometimes has IRL things that happen that keep him away from the thread. I do not wolf read Rask not being here.

I don't think it's Sleep either.

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I think it's just Saturday and people not me have lives lol

I mean independently of who it is, from the situation they've been in, upper poe qll game basically, i think as wolf kat needs to do exactly that to get to f3 without looking sus but I've also said this in several posts now so I'll chill with that

I'm in my way home and like, not sober but I'm feeling a good vibe rn so I might do stuff unless I fall asleep or something worse.

Honestly we should vote visorslash for being nerdy

@Dobby what's the case on katze? I'm trying to understand your perspective there and I'm struggling a little bit.

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Originally Posted by Dobby

I think it's just Saturday and people not me have lives lol

I mean independently of who it is, from the situation they've been in, upper poe qll game basically, i think as wolf kat needs to do exactly that to get to f3 without looking sus but I've also said this in several posts now so I'll chill with that

I'm in my way home and like, not sober but I'm feeling a good vibe rn so I might do stuff unless I fall asleep or something worse.

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cool nbd.

I'm here in and out this evening/tonight, then tomorrow until about 2ish hours before EOD I'll be driving to and from a funeral visitation so most of my work is gonna be today and I'll be live vibing for eod

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Originally Posted by hollowkatt

@Dobby what's the case on katze? I'm trying to understand your perspective there and I'm struggling a little bit.

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The thing ive written over and over tonight or from before that? :P

because i feel like the thing ive written shoudl be pretty clear even though ive described it like shit (as in the idea should still be graspable)


im home now and by the pc, but also uh not super somer but i have some energy and i genuinely have no idea for how long ill be here tomorrow and i feel like my thread presence has been close to constant despite not being able to participate (as in i was on my phone every two minutes during the party because i cant stop updating shit) so idk how much more i want to do atm but

here we go tbh

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dobby

The thing ive written over and over tonight or from before that? :P

because i feel like the thing ive written shoudl be pretty clear even though ive described it like shit (as in the idea should still be graspable)


im home now and by the pc, but also uh not super somer but i have some energy and i genuinely have no idea for how long ill be here tomorrow and i feel like my thread presence has been close to constant despite not being able to participate (as in i was on my phone every two minutes during the party because i cant stop updating shit) so idk how much more i want to do atm but

here we go tbh

---

yeah I'm sorry I was trying to dodge just re-reading all your posts. tbh it's fine, go enjoy your evening, I'll read your stuff and we can chat some time tomorrow before EOD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dobby

No not massove body of work but something past "he's just wolfy"? I don't think that's too much to ask if you think it's the gamewinning solve, because whatever you're talking about I don't think it weighs that hard and your motivation for it hasn't really bee clear?

I think I townread cuth for most of the reasons you've talked qbout but I think keeping a townread at this point based on that (unless you've reevaluate and stuff) is a bit of a unwarranted freebie for him tbqpph

If all you have is feels to go on then that's fine too


Idk if I explained it but I think the way you're playing now is exactly how a wolf needs to play to get to f3 and have a chance. If you don't follow the same path as a lot of others (ie not have "unique reads you deep down know you won't make happen) then you can keep saying nobody listens to me and it won't look weird. If you agree on cuth for example, changing target tomorrow and then the day after without looking sus yourself and getting yeeted will be really hard if not impossible

I don't think that trail of thought is hard to get but I do get that it doesn't feel worth trying to towncase yourself or scything but idk like there should be a way for us (all of us) to try and solve this past saying this is my splve do what you want bai

---

@hollowkatt i think this one explains my view of it best but i can rephrase it now that im not on phone if needed ( tried to reowrd it in a few posts but idk if any of them made sense)


im at home now and by the PC with a cup fo tea. its 3am so idk for how long ill be around but im vibin so ill be around for a bit.


idk if ill be here for eod, i have friends over for dinner and movienight (ive got some awesome wagyu beef and stuff so its gon be awesome)

aft erthat i might have a walrus reveal so i uh, ill prolly sxtill try to be here for eod if i know myself but the hours leading up to it dont count on it





ill prolly be on phone playing mafia during the movie though not gonna lie to myself

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dobby

@hollowkatt i think this one explains my view of it best but i can rephrase it now that im not on phone if needed ( tried to reowrd it in a few posts but idk if any of them made sense)


im at home now and by the PC with a cup fo tea. its 3am so idk for how long ill be around but im vibin so ill be around for a bit.


idk if ill be here for eod, i have friends over for dinner and movienight (ive got some awesome wagyu beef and stuff so its gon be awesome)

aft erthat i might have a walrus reveal so i uh, ill prolly sxtill try to be here for eod if i know myself but the hours leading up to it dont count on it





ill prolly be on phone playing mafia during the movie though not gonna lie to myself

---

Thanks Dobby, ur the best!
Enjoy the friends and food :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hollowkatt

Thanks Dobby, ur the best!
Enjoy the friends and food :)

---

ur face is


hk


are you town, did i misclear you because you were nice in our exchange


dont lie to me

okay so

my game activity fell off because i was endgaming a mash and it sucked away all my time and energy

i sincerely apologize for multitabling but i vastly underestimate how long i would be playing the game and how involved i would be given that i was playing on a gimmick


anyway now that that cognitive load is removed i can devote my full time and energy to this game (although, um, i am bad in these endgame spots)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hollowkatt

who's not a wolf:
neb
katze
dobby
hk

who is unlikely a wolf:
raskol
sleep
cape

who could be a wolf:
cuth
monte

this is where I'm currently at. I think neb, katze, dobby are obvs town. I think there are very good reasons to town read raskol, cape, and sleep. I think we're on cruise control to chop monte and I have very little reason to town read them. I think managing to vote all three dead wolves on D1 is either god tier luck, god tier reads, or TMI.
Cuth is in the bottom tier instead of the middle tier b/c frankly I think they've dropped off pretty damn hard. But probably it's just monte

vote: monte

---

if you dont want broken quotes the linked post is the one im quoting below

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hollowkatt

what if:



I guess the big question of the day is this: was there a wolf on Ladd and given their role and given the way the wagon flashed out of nowhere I'm inclined to think wolves were trying to save Ladd more so than gain credit from being on his wagon. Obvs they could not be flashy about saving him b/c it would out them.

But here's a thing:
This is the vote count from 18 minutes before EOD:


Notice a complete and utter lack of Ladd wagon other than the lone Winston vote.
Here we have one wolf on newcomb, one wolf on sleep, and one wolf on raskol. I think none of those are buses.

Then we have the next count:


It's 12 minutes later and the Cuth wagon has vanished. Ladd still at 1 vote, Cuth has moved to Winston, the Raskol wagon has also dropped a voter.

One minute to go:


6 wagons with 2 votes each. At this point there is no telling who is going to go over. Nobody can claim any kind of credit from Ladd at this point as there's no real push other than from winston to get people voting for Ladd. He's the only one stumping for the chop here.

Contrast with the final vote count:


I think this shows Raskol and Sleep are town. If they are goons they are both bused to save Ladd here. I say this because again there was not a huge impetus to save Ladd. His wagon grew organically and votes were flying pretty quickly in the last minute or so of the game day.

I think it also shows that there was not a coordinated bus effort on Ladd. Kinda want to clear his whole wagon which is why I posted the first "what if" at the top.
I want to add Cuth to the "can't be a wolf here" bucket b/c why does he vote his PR on the back of Winston asking for Ladd votes when Cuth was voting Winston moments before he votes Ladd? It doesn't add up to me. I know Cuth is an insanely good player as both alignments but still, there's literally zero reasons to move to Ladd here as wolf goon when you can just stay on Raskol, not to mention moving off of Raskol puts the Cuth wagon clearly in the lead by 2 votes which is quite a bit to overcome in the last couple minutes of a game day. It did happen so it's not impossible but still, unlikely to me that Cuth is a wolf.

Then there is the monte question. I said earlier he had votes on each of the dead wolves on D1 and ended his day on the Ladd wagon.
Before that though he is pretty much parked on Raskol in the run up to the end of the day. Like Cuth what is the impetus to move to Ladd, what does wolf?Monte gain from doing that. I argue it's the same thing with Cuth. Monte wasn't highly suspected during D1, there was no gamestate reason for Monte to reach for credit like this. He also doesn't make much noise in terms of trying to capitalize on said credit.

I would argue Monte is town for the same reasons here.

So Rask, Sleep, Cuth, Monte town

Leaving
HK
Dobby
Neb
Katze
Cape

Remove myself, remove Dobby, remove Neb. Leaves Katze and Cape.

This is where I get stuck tbh. I can find reasonable reasons to town read both of them.

vote: katze

gonna try this on for a while and see how it feels.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hollowkatt

which direction does this spew katze

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hollowkatt

Like on the one hand I can see wolfLadd telling wolf?Katze "go ahead and do whatever you want to do I'm pretty sure I'm not going over"
otoh I can see wolfLadd putting "bad reads town Katze" "in charge" of leading EOD b/c Ladd knows Katze isn't pushing on any of his team mates.

---

@hollowkatt i just clicked through a few pages afte rthis but can you explain these flips from kat lock to kat vote to some reasoning not leading anywhere to now saying kat town

i mightve missed a few flops and stuff in between but its easier to ask you than to iso on this godforgotten site (i just wanted to use that word no offense)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by katze

anyway i'm gonna try to explain my mindset rn because i think the misunderstandings are coming from me being lazy more than anything and being misunderstood is a bit of a peeve of mine so i should stop not doing myself any favors:

i think this game is still easy; i don't really feel obligated to... try that hard to win it? like, i feel pretty good about it just being in monty or cape. if it's not there, i expect to get executed, and i might fight that a bit if it comes to it because i'm a stubborn bastard but i've already basically accepted it.


Alive: (9/17)
2. nebjiamn
3. cuthillius
6. Raskolnikov
11. Montmorency
12. roro__b
14. katze
15. Sleep
16. Cape90
17. hollowkatt

five clears still wins the game. i've been kinda solving as if i'd be one of them because i'm a villager but i get it. i'll be grumpy about it but i get it. five clears outside of myself should still be pretty easy anyway

my first clear is still raskol. i mean the lazy raeson is "lol if they're w/w with monstr" but also like, i still think they're way townier than the time i've seen them wolf (yes the situations are different, i still think the difference is quite massive), they're pretty unassociated with ladd as well... it's still lazy but i'm still confident it's correct

scond clear would still be benneh - this one is a lot less concrete in terms of "well they're obviously not w/w with the flipped wolves" - although i do think ladd treated benneh/zack p much identically and given zack flipped V he was prob just trying to pocket them both - i think benneh is just really villagery this game lmao. i was a bit paranoid towards EoD1 cause it felt like we were a bit too on the same page at times so when he just stoppd posting and kinda just sheeped me i thought it might just be deliberate, but ehhh. i've talked myself out of that and think from my experience with him he's kinda just a villager. yes this is mostly turbo/mash experience, shut up. newcomb flipping V only really reinforces this because in my experience it's way fucking harder to mindmeld with a villager about another villager than a villager about a wolf. also newcomb felt really strongly about it too :wowee:

third is cuth, and i really do not understand why people are trying to throw that name back out? i was tempted to put him above benneh simply because i think they're both villagers anyway and if they're both villagers then the order doesn't matter so me putting him higher would make people feel dumber if they went against the word of everybody, but i mean. i am technically more confident in the above two

anyway uh. again, the easy answer is "cuths EoD1 is just flat out terrible play if he's mafia ngl" but also like... there's a level of. i don't know the right word. i kinda just... feel like they're the same as they were in SF2 on like d3 onwards? the slightly-deflated-because-wrong cuth? idk. i just get about the same vibes. if the above two reads are a 10/10 in confidence this one is like a 9.5/10 still

number four... it gets a bit harder, i can't really pick one or the other so i'll just say both sleep and hollowkatt --

sleep because i'm pretty sure every player on D1 who asked about "who is sleep" has since then flipped mafia which probably just spews him V right there and now that i type this out why is this below cuth? i guess he did try to clear ender off of ladds flip? sure we'll go with that. anyway sleep is the player in this game that i read their posts and i kinda just naturally feel inclined to townread them. most games have one of these players, in my experience they're almost always villagers that i talk myself out of townreading out of paranoia at some point. i think the early cape case was still a genuine attempt to solve (note for the future: if the game is hard go double check who was under pressure around the time it got posted, i don't remember) and one of those posts that a wolf just doesn't write in most worlds

i guess there's still a little bit of paranoia here, because i feel like both of their EoDs weren't especially clearing off of memory, but i still think they're really fucking villagery and criticizing someone for being wrong on newcomb after *glances in a mirror* is kinda joycat of me

and then HK is. well, okay, i'll fully admit the fact he was basically shielding me earlier was a part of it, so the fact that changed saddens me and may have lowered him a bit subconsciously, but i think the dude's still just a villager off of posting alone. pretty sure he has some D1 posts that have aged like wine wrt "interactions with wolves" but i'm not opening an iso for a thoughtdump post that ruins the point of it

---

so like, i'm pretty happy with those 5

my thoughts beyond those 5 are like

well, i'm me, i'm town. hi me.

dobby has been pretty hard shielded by people i think are town and i'm not 100% sold on it personally but it kinda feels right, so i think you're probably town

and it leaves monty and cape, both people who like

i thought monty was villagery late D1. i recognize the reasons as not being great. but they existed. i recognize that the dead villagers have been significantly more anti-monty than they have been anti-cape. they haven't really been favorable towards either, tho

...i mean tbh if majority was enabled id have exactly zero problem killing either one first and then the other if it that doesn't end it but i want this game to be over or for me to die so i can do what i truly want to do and stop actually putting effort into this game. because i think it's solved. i don't think more effort is necessary. but i feel obligated to exist in thread because i agreed to play it, so here i am.

i'm not particularly happy with my play this game, and me slam dunking on the last wolf wouldn't change that either, so. i'd feel worse off if i were misclearing a wolf, i don't think i'd feel worse off if i got MLed because i frankly deserve it and have deservd it in multiple of my past towngames anyway

so... yeah. i deviated a lot from why i originally wrote this post but i'm pretty sure the intent is in there somewhere and if not then joycat

---

I mentioned this yesterday but

following this post i asked katze basically "okay so i'm in your poe" because i specificially wanted to include the word poe related to me to see how theyd react and what answer i would get, because, indirectly having someone in poe or even poe adjacent is a whole different thing than saying it straight out. And I got this answer which

Quote:

---

i don't really think you're mafia i just personally have more concrete reasons to townread 6 people over you and probably would have/literally wanted you dead d2/early d3 if not for sunbaes shield

if i were going off of just last day phase and this one you'd probably be in the top 5 over... cuth or sleep?

idk. my point is more "i think it's in the bottom 2" than anything else and if it's not i'd be more willing to Put In Effort ig

---

The "OVER CUTH OR SLEEP" is the part i cant digest. I did ask about it specifically and got this answer
reading this from a perspective where i dont try to solve katzes alignment but like, put myself in their mindset in a t!kat situation and

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by katze

wait did i do that

wtf past me LMAO

okay i dont have an answer to that ill assume it was more "hollowkatt should be higher" but

something something grumble grumble "it won't matter because they're all town anyway kill monty"

---

and it can just be a loltown thing but WEH why does it exist and it just adds to every other thing that makes me sus of kat.

And it feels tough as fuck to push kat because the indirect resistance from her makes me like, do it half-assed but. The things add onto eachother and i feel like there's an obvious reason for it.

i know it'd be really annoying if you were town and got me pointing out all these things that i mightve pulled out of my butt trying to find explanations in things that dont exist, but i gues its mafia and im bad at it so idk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by katze

anyway i'm gonna try to explain my mindset rn because i think the misunderstandings are coming from me being lazy more than anything and being misunderstood is a bit of a peeve of mine so i should stop not doing myself any favors:

i think this game is still easy; i don't really feel obligated to... try that hard to win it? like, i feel pretty good about it just being in monty or cape. if it's not there, i expect to get executed, and i might fight that a bit if it comes to it because i'm a stubborn bastard but i've already basically accepted it.


Alive: (9/17)
2. nebjiamn
3. cuthillius
6. Raskolnikov
11. Montmorency
12. roro__b
14. katze
15. Sleep
16. Cape90
17. hollowkatt

five clears still wins the game. i've been kinda solving as if i'd be one of them because i'm a villager but i get it. i'll be grumpy about it but i get it. five clears outside of myself should still be pretty easy anyway

my first clear is still raskol. i mean the lazy raeson is "lol if they're w/w with monstr" but also like, i still think they're way townier than the time i've seen them wolf (yes the situations are different, i still think the difference is quite massive), they're pretty unassociated with ladd as well... it's still lazy but i'm still confident it's correct

scond clear would still be benneh - this one is a lot less concrete in terms of "well they're obviously not w/w with the flipped wolves" - although i do think ladd treated benneh/zack p much identically and given zack flipped V he was prob just trying to pocket them both - i think benneh is just really villagery this game lmao. i was a bit paranoid towards EoD1 cause it felt like we were a bit too on the same page at times so when he just stoppd posting and kinda just sheeped me i thought it might just be deliberate, but ehhh. i've talked myself out of that and think from my experience with him he's kinda just a villager. yes this is mostly turbo/mash experience, shut up. newcomb flipping V only really reinforces this because in my experience it's way fucking harder to mindmeld with a villager about another villager than a villager about a wolf. also newcomb felt really strongly about it too :wowee:

third is cuth, and i really do not understand why people are trying to throw that name back out? i was tempted to put him above benneh simply because i think they're both villagers anyway and if they're both villagers then the order doesn't matter so me putting him higher would make people feel dumber if they went against the word of everybody, but i mean. i am technically more confident in the above two

anyway uh. again, the easy answer is "cuths EoD1 is just flat out terrible play if he's mafia ngl" but also like... there's a level of. i don't know the right word. i kinda just... feel like they're the same as they were in SF2 on like d3 onwards? the slightly-deflated-because-wrong cuth? idk. i just get about the same vibes. if the above two reads are a 10/10 in confidence this one is like a 9.5/10 still

number four... it gets a bit harder, i can't really pick one or the other so i'll just say both sleep and hollowkatt --

sleep because i'm pretty sure every player on D1 who asked about "who is sleep" has since then flipped mafia which probably just spews him V right there and now that i type this out why is this below cuth? i guess he did try to clear ender off of ladds flip? sure we'll go with that. anyway sleep is the player in this game that i read their posts and i kinda just naturally feel inclined to townread them. most games have one of these players, in my experience they're almost always villagers that i talk myself out of townreading out of paranoia at some point. i think the early cape case was still a genuine attempt to solve (note for the future: if the game is hard go double check who was under pressure around the time it got posted, i don't remember) and one of those posts that a wolf just doesn't write in most worlds

i guess there's still a little bit of paranoia here, because i feel like both of their EoDs weren't especially clearing off of memory, but i still think they're really fucking villagery and criticizing someone for being wrong on newcomb after *glances in a mirror* is kinda joycat of me

and then HK is. well, okay, i'll fully admit the fact he was basically shielding me earlier was a part of it, so the fact that changed saddens me and may have lowered him a bit subconsciously, but i think the dude's still just a villager off of posting alone. pretty sure he has some D1 posts that have aged like wine wrt "interactions with wolves" but i'm not opening an iso for a thoughtdump post that ruins the point of it

---

so like, i'm pretty happy with those 5

my thoughts beyond those 5 are like

well, i'm me, i'm town. hi me.

dobby has been pretty hard shielded by people i think are town and i'm not 100% sold on it personally but it kinda feels right, so i think you're probably town

and it leaves monty and cape, both people who like

i thought monty was villagery late D1. i recognize the reasons as not being great. but they existed. i recognize that the dead villagers have been significantly more anti-monty than they have been anti-cape. they haven't really been favorable towards either, tho

...i mean tbh if majority was enabled id have exactly zero problem killing either one first and then the other if it that doesn't end it but i want this game to be over or for me to die so i can do what i truly want to do and stop actually putting effort into this game. because i think it's solved. i don't think more effort is necessary. but i feel obligated to exist in thread because i agreed to play it, so here i am.

i'm not particularly happy with my play this game, and me slam dunking on the last wolf wouldn't change that either, so. i'd feel worse off if i were misclearing a wolf, i don't think i'd feel worse off if i got MLed because i frankly deserve it and have deservd it in multiple of my past towngames anyway

so... yeah. i deviated a lot from why i originally wrote this post but i'm pretty sure the intent is in there somewhere and if not then joycat

---

okay so if im going to make an attempt to get out of my tunnel, im gonna do it based ont his post to an extent because its the collected kat thoughts and easier to process and its just, a list, lists are good, usually.

Five clears wins the game - yes, that's my issue, based on the poes and reads of the players in the games we dont have those clears :p

the rask read makes sense, its a TRUE read (whether katze is town or not, and they cant be teamed so i think like, either way on two more fronts we can say rask is town, dont think you need to tinfoil even @hollowkatt, although id liek to see more rasktivity (teehee i made up a word im funny 12/10 on a scale tbh)

benneh is dead

the cuth read is still there based on eod1 and "similar to a previosu towngame (btw theres at least one game ive hosted where cuth was wolf and just shat on everyone so like, he is very very capable as wolf i just feel like i dont even know what cuth has posted recently (as a contributing issue for me probabbly now that i think of it)

the HK/Sleep cases are followable tbh

the dobby tinfoil exists but sure

and yeah i guess, having cape and monty in the bottom two without cases but more like, tehyre not in the clears so therefore they can go, makes sense

that probably wasnt useful at all eh

trying to bring my brain back into the game without context at that katze post feels tonally scummy which is a dumb way to analyze a wallpost but w/e

revisiting day 1. i know theres recent content i havent processed but i kind of want to mind wipe and draw my own conclusions

(i am not considering any of the ladd voters anymore though)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dobby

ur face is


hk


are you town, did i misclear you because you were nice in our exchange


dont lie to me

---

I am town. You did misclear me because I'm nice. You should have miscleared me b/c of how many wolves were town reading me. Especially the ones that know they can push me across the line.

Really though the best reason I can say that I'm town is that I have too narrow of a POE to actually get the chops I need to win the game.
For me to really succeed here I need to keep as many options open as I can so that I can easily fall in line with "whatever the town pushes" instead of trying to clear people like katze and raskol.

2 more dumb thoughts on why benneh died over raskolnikov


rask pushed cuth super hard, benneh pushed cuth pretty hard

there wasa little tinfoil on benneh expressed (or maybe just from me) in thread so that couldve potentially been taken advantage of by wolf


rask not dying could be because the woof wants cuth to keep being hard pushed by someone (although benneh did it too he wasnt as passionate about it as rask was)

and theres also the viewpoint where, if rask does die, reading into "why did rask die over benneh" would be 500 red fat arrows pointing at cuth


but that could also be done to get a free kill on cuth


but having cuth in f3 is a cool thing for wolves if cuth is town because ending the game without cuth dying is like... kinda lol








and yes to clarify my issue with today because i dont think i have worded it out (im bolding because i think reading this post will be awful if anyone even tries it and this might improve readability but i think i have actually good thoughts here)



READ THIS PART IF UR GONNA READ ANYTHING pls


I was very set on Cuth or Katze yoink for today, and Katze is hard shielding Cuth now. Meaning if I'm going to trust Katze as town or potential town, I need to find someone outside of those two. That'd probably be Cape. But katze and Cuth feel way higher on my priority list. And it's a perfect scenario for wolf katze to try and get to endstages of the game with. It's not as beneficial for anyone else.

So if Katze is actually town, the Cuth read is real. If Cuth is town, Katzes read on Cuth could be fake, but Katze can also go back to saying "I was wrong sorry" and it won't get us any closer to solving Katze, and then we either yoink katze or we go someone else and BAM f3 where anything can happen.

So like, any logical thoughts i might have just tell me Katze is the best yeet, but looking at the above, another yoink chain that doesn't make the game impossible COULD be Cape -> Katze and then f3 with Cuth +2 (probably HK and me or Sleep unless someone wants to keep the rask tinfoil alive)


That would mean we leave Cuth til f3. But if Cape is town, we HAVE to kill katze after for any of it to make sense according to the above, and uh, sure that is fine but awful to drag the game out


that was more than 2 thoughts

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hollowkatt

I am town. You did misclear me because I'm nice. You should have miscleared me b/c of how many wolves were town reading me. Especially the ones that know they can push me across the line.

Really though the best reason I can say that I'm town is that I have too narrow of a POE to actually get the chops I need to win the game.
For me to really succeed here I need to keep as many options open as I can so that I can easily fall in line with "whatever the town pushes" instead of trying to clear people like katze and raskol.

---

clearing becuse of wolves townreading you is bad lol

i like the narrow poe thing, ur good

if we are in f3 ill care but yeah, i think i had a chain of posts linked that id love to see answered but thats just for ease of mind smth and seeing if i can find out what others find is good abotu katze


(also youre describing what i think katze is doing - speaking of your asking me what made me sus katze, keeping the poe open, focusing on poe adjacent slots and trying to make actual poe slots live til later, perfect example of how to efficiently keep the poe widened without being obvious about it)

weh

this game is annoying because if i were mafia my path to victory would be shutting up and letting you kill cuth today and im being scumread for it and i kind of want to say "fuck it just kill cuth" but if i do that then i feel like i'd get scumread even more for it

yes this is a self conscious post

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dobby

if you dont want broken quotes the linked post is the one im quoting below










@hollowkatt i just clicked through a few pages afte rthis but can you explain these flips from kat lock to kat vote to some reasoning not leading anywhere to now saying kat town

i mightve missed a few flops and stuff in between but its easier to ask you than to iso on this godforgotten site (i just wanted to use that word no offense)

---

Sure, I can talk about that for a while.

I've been town reading katze for most of the game and do think the meta read that I dropped is still pretty valid. But in the interest of doing my due diligence I went back through the votes in the run-up to EOD1.

D1 is the only day when a wolf really got wagoned, pressured, and then eliminated. The D2 wolf was a bomb and the D3 wolf was from a bomb as well. So D1 is really the best associatives day that we have available to us. It's also the day when the most groundwork is being laid and people have, generally speaking, the flimsiest reasons for reads just because there's less to work with.

That being said the large post you quoted (fuck this site for multiquotes btw) clearly starts out with a "what if" situation. I wrote that post assuming everyone on the Ladd wagon was pure, and worked the game from that angle, which lead me to Cape/Katze as the last people where the wolf could be hiding.

I cleared Monte and Cuth by virtue of how they arrived at the Ladd wagon, where they were before hand, and thinking about why/how a partner would bus their valuable PR (yes I think even N3 sorcerer has value) compared to any of the goons (monstr tbh would have been a great bus target there).

Then when I was doing my re-read of D1 looking at what Ladd had posted I came across the post where Ladd tells Katze to run EOD and wondered how that spewed Katze. I concluded that it could be a bad look.

After removing the Ladd wagon from possible wolf-pack members it was down to me, you, neb, katze, cape. Obvs I remove myself. Neb was obvs town. I got to a town read on you when we were talking during D2 when you were pushing me. You weren't posting like you knew my alignment so I went with the assumption that you were legit solving me, not pushing me to get a mischop.

That would literally leave Katze and Cape and that I could find reasons to town read both of them.

Katze via meta in terms of their wolf game being holistically different than what I've seen here, and Cape b/c he does have some good thoughts and good posts.

I decided to try voting Katze to see what anyone else would say or think about that, whether or not it would start a wagon or if I would get push back. Unfortunately that post was largely ignored until you brought it up now.

When I didn't get any traction on Katze I decided that maybe I was seeing things that aren't there, and that maybe clearing the entire ladd wagon wasn't a smart idea, so I went back eventually to monte for the chop. Do regret that chop.

Anyways, I want to believe in my meta read on katze and I want to believe they're playing in a way that makes it very hard for katze wolf to win.
I want to believe in my read on Cape where he functionally vanishes when he's not being pressured or suspected and only pops back up to really get involved when he's carrying a few votes.

i guess i f i could explain my feelings on reading that katze post in more tangible terms, it feels like she's willing herself toward conclusions rather than letting them form. this is possibly dumb! i know it's more or less her writing style

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by katze

this game is annoying because if i were mafia my path to victory would be shutting up and letting you kill cuth today and im being scumread for it and i kind of want to say "fuck it just kill cuth" but if i do that then i feel like i'd get scumread even more for it

yes this is a self conscious post

---

ok

i mean im gstill gonna reread cape having finally played a game with him where i just locktowned him and never looked back

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sleep

ok

i mean im gstill gonna reread cape having finally played a game with him where i just locktowned him and never looked back

---

i thought he was way townier from my following of that game but i didn't read it super closely so im not going to force that conclusion on you

im hrete at 4:15am after a night out playing mafia with big brain thoughts, and this isnt even my final form pls kill me before f3




Vote: Cape90


I'm going to read everything by and about Cape tomorrow during what little time i have and see if i'm being too nice to him tbqpph. If i wake up before 5pm ill have a couple of hours to do it, hopefully i will.


I think ((or im fairly confident in it) we dont vote cuth here. See my last post. I think instead of taking this one step at a time we need to optimize for f3. Who do we want in f3, and who do we NOT want there. And, on the way to f3, what gives us the most to work with. Pls see my last post :wowee: . I think the correct yeet is either Katze or Cape. I have a ton of stuff in my brain yellin at me to vote kat and stuff but i want to get this right but any order of cape/katze is fine.

If i vote katze, its because i vote the one that makes most sense for me to be scum

If i vote cape its because that'd lead to katze, if her strat is the one im talking about, having to change strategy to get to f3.

If i vote cuth itd be because its also a vote that makes sense to make, but not getting as strong w vibes like i do with kat. So mh


Unless rask comes in and tries to bruteforce a cuth yoink to try and end the game i might focus on cape mainly, with a side of katze



but ill leave my vote for now to pressure myself into spending time that i shouldnt have on this

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by katze

this game is annoying because if i were mafia my path to victory would be shutting up and letting you kill cuth today and im being scumread for it and i kind of want to say "fuck it just kill cuth" but if i do that then i feel like i'd get scumread even more for it

yes this is a self conscious post

---

idk if i can make it make sense but

being mafia and especially good at mafia (i havent wanted to say it til now because im sure it sucks to hear but, ur champ after a wolf win tbh and not without reason) means you dont do what youre expected to do as mafia, right? i literally just talked about what your approach to a cuth yoink could be and how youd proceed from there in one of my rants

and it makes more sense for me that you play like you do right now as wolf, than if youd be on a cuth wagon or let cuth die. because this way of playing takes w!katze to f3 without it looking weird. if cuth dies, you will have more eyes on you.

(also reread your sentence it doesnt make sense lol. if i were mafia id let cuth die but i cant let cuth die because id get more scumread for it"

unless im smolbraining here

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hollowkatt

Sure, I can talk about that for a while.

I've been town reading katze for most of the game and do think the meta read that I dropped is still pretty valid. But in the interest of doing my due diligence I went back through the votes in the run-up to EOD1.

D1 is the only day when a wolf really got wagoned, pressured, and then eliminated. The D2 wolf was a bomb and the D3 wolf was from a bomb as well. So D1 is really the best associatives day that we have available to us. It's also the day when the most groundwork is being laid and people have, generally speaking, the flimsiest reasons for reads just because there's less to work with.

That being said the large post you quoted (fuck this site for multiquotes btw) clearly starts out with a "what if" situation. I wrote that post assuming everyone on the Ladd wagon was pure, and worked the game from that angle, which lead me to Cape/Katze as the last people where the wolf could be hiding.

I cleared Monte and Cuth by virtue of how they arrived at the Ladd wagon, where they were before hand, and thinking about why/how a partner would bus their valuable PR (yes I think even N3 sorcerer has value) compared to any of the goons (monstr tbh would have been a great bus target there).

Then when I was doing my re-read of D1 looking at what Ladd had posted I came across the post where Ladd tells Katze to run EOD and wondered how that spewed Katze. I concluded that it could be a bad look.

After removing the Ladd wagon from possible wolf-pack members it was down to me, you, neb, katze, cape. Obvs I remove myself. Neb was obvs town. I got to a town read on you when we were talking during D2 when you were pushing me. You weren't posting like you knew my alignment so I went with the assumption that you were legit solving me, not pushing me to get a mischop.

That would literally leave Katze and Cape and that I could find reasons to town read both of them.

Katze via meta in terms of their wolf game being holistically different than what I've seen here, and Cape b/c he does have some good thoughts and good posts.

I decided to try voting Katze to see what anyone else would say or think about that, whether or not it would start a wagon or if I would get push back. Unfortunately that post was largely ignored until you brought it up now.

When I didn't get any traction on Katze I decided that maybe I was seeing things that aren't there, and that maybe clearing the entire ladd wagon wasn't a smart idea, so I went back eventually to monte for the chop. Do regret that chop.

Anyways, I want to believe in my meta read on katze and I want to believe they're playing in a way that makes it very hard for katze wolf to win.
I want to believe in my read on Cape where he functionally vanishes when he's not being pressured or suspected and only pops back up to really get involved when he's carrying a few votes.

---

alright, checks out tbh.

can i just ask about the bolded tbh. I have stated a few times why i think this is exactly how katze wolf needs to play to win and i hope you read it and understood my viewpoint and if not let me know and ill try to rewrite it til you get how it could make sense for me because i feel like its vital to get that specific thing before deciding where you land

the cape read you're describing there - is that a thing he does as town or as wolf? I think its a kinda weak thing in meta terms ish but alrgugt.

And if it's a read on how cape plays as town, you are voting him now y tho

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dobby

idk if i can make it make sense but

being mafia and especially good at mafia (i havent wanted to say it til now because im sure it sucks to hear but, ur champ after a wolf win tbh and not without reason) means you dont do what youre expected to do as mafia, right? i literally just talked about what your approach to a cuth yoink could be and how youd proceed from there in one of my rants

and it makes more sense for me that you play like you do right now as wolf, than if youd be on a cuth wagon or let cuth die. because this way of playing takes w!katze to f3 without it looking weird. if cuth dies, you will have more eyes on you.

(also reread your sentence it doesnt make sense lol. if i were mafia id let cuth die but i cant let cuth die because id get more scumread for it"

unless im smolbraining here

---

uh it kinda doesnt make sense when i write it out but in my head its like

i feel like my play today is really suboptimal for w!me and if i were a wolf then me taking cuth out of the "consensus" PoE while my proposed PoE doesn't have him in it (effectively meaning that my previously planned path to victory did not require a cuth ML) is kinda silly

and right now im in a position where i feel like my genuine opinions are getting me scumread more than me just taking the easy way out and letting you kill cuth which w!me would absolutely want to do

but yes, i've joked a ton this game that im being scumread because of #TheFear, and it's part of why i'm explicitly not trying to towncase myself or like, say that i think i'm obvious town. like... i think i am, i think hollowkatt has pointed out multiple reasons i am a villager this game, and i could point out more if i really wanted to.

but ultimately i'm just tired of it. if it's not cape i want to be voted out because being alive in a potential F3 in this game would just suck. and while i think i can make a good towncase on myself, it's probably just going to be met with #TheFear and not be worth my time. so im just accepting the fact that i'm getting executed this game and i'd likely shoot future w!katze games in the foot by explaining why i'm not a wolf here.

uhh that was probably a tangent but meh. i think cuth is town i think cape is mafia i want to kill cape today but if you kill me instead then my legacy is kill cape tomorrow and if that's not it then you're free to laugh at me in dvc/f3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sleep

i guess i f i could explain my feelings on reading that katze post in more tangible terms, it feels like she's willing herself toward conclusions rather than letting them form. this is possibly dumb! i know it's more or less her writing style

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sleep

trying to bring my brain back into the game without context at that katze post feels tonally scummy which is a dumb way to analyze a wallpost but w/e

---

its definitely part of the tonal part of my motivation fr why i think it could be kat so i get and share it :P

being called tonally wolfy is actually p new to me, in usually i get toneread V regardless of alignment ~:cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dobby

clearing becuse of wolves townreading you is bad lol

i like the narrow poe thing, ur good

if we are in f3 ill care but yeah, i think i had a chain of posts linked that id love to see answered but thats just for ease of mind smth and seeing if i can find out what others find is good abotu katze


(also youre describing what i think katze is doing - speaking of your asking me what made me sus katze, keeping the poe open, focusing on poe adjacent slots and trying to make actual poe slots live til later, perfect example of how to efficiently keep the poe widened without being obvious about it)

---

I yam yeah.

ok, I want to believe you, and this ties into a post I haven't written yet responding with my thoughts on your post before the one I'm responding to.

If Katze = wolf great, game is over.
If Katze = town and dies today do we get any closer to understanding who the last wolf is? Town Katze town reading Cuth I think is a good look for Cuth because Katze is a smart cookie and when town generally has really good insights into what other people are doing.

Katze town doesn't really give us more information on Cape as Katze is shielding Cape far less than they are shielding Cuth.

Wolf Katze probably doesn't care about shielding Cape, town Katze probably cares more about shielding Cuth just in terms of raw potential for the rest of the game should town katze be killed.

The longer we go sans Raskol the more I want to wolf read him. Partially because in this situation/game state inactivity is very wolfy.

If town is eating itself, and it appears as if we are, not getting involved is highly profitable for the last wolf. This is veering into random tinfoil territory and please slap me out of it if I'm being dumb, but it feels like the last wolf here wants us to continue being wrong more than they want to do anything of substance.

This could also point to Cuth and Sleep today. At least the three of us (me, you, katze) are showing up and making posts. Meh and weh I guess?

If we're wrong and it's not Katze I want to think about who dies next. Probs within you, me, maybe sleep. Probs not cape, cuth, or raskol.

There's 7 of us alive, one is a wolf.

6 - 1
be wrong
5 - 1
nk
4 - 1
be wrong
3 - 1
nk
2 - 1

if we can be wrong twice tbh does it really matter?

I decided I'm not responding to the post you made above this post, I'm just gonna quote it here:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dobby

2 more dumb thoughts on why benneh died over raskolnikov


rask pushed cuth super hard, benneh pushed cuth pretty hard

there wasa little tinfoil on benneh expressed (or maybe just from me) in thread so that couldve potentially been taken advantage of by wolf


rask not dying could be because the woof wants cuth to keep being hard pushed by someone (although benneh did it too he wasnt as passionate about it as rask was)

and theres also the viewpoint where, if rask does die, reading into "why did rask die over benneh" would be 500 red fat arrows pointing at cuth


but that could also be done to get a free kill on cuth


but having cuth in f3 is a cool thing for wolves if cuth is town because ending the game without cuth dying is like... kinda lol








and yes to clarify my issue with today because i dont think i have worded it out (im bolding because i think reading this post will be awful if anyone even tries it and this might improve readability but i think i have actually good thoughts here)



READ THIS PART IF UR GONNA READ ANYTHING pls


I was very set on Cuth or Katze yoink for today, and Katze is hard shielding Cuth now. Meaning if I'm going to trust Katze as town or potential town, I need to find someone outside of those two. That'd probably be Cape. But katze and Cuth feel way higher on my priority list. And it's a perfect scenario for wolf katze to try and get to endstages of the game with. It's not as beneficial for anyone else.

So if Katze is actually town, the Cuth read is real. If Cuth is town, Katzes read on Cuth could be fake, but Katze can also go back to saying "I was wrong sorry" and it won't get us any closer to solving Katze, and then we either yoink katze or we go someone else and BAM f3 where anything can happen.

So like, any logical thoughts i might have just tell me Katze is the best yeet, but looking at the above, another yoink chain that doesn't make the game impossible COULD be Cape -> Katze and then f3 with Cuth +2 (probably HK and me or Sleep unless someone wants to keep the rask tinfoil alive)


That would mean we leave Cuth til f3. But if Cape is town, we HAVE to kill katze after for any of it to make sense according to the above, and uh, sure that is fine but awful to drag the game out

On a completely unrelated note, is there value in understanding the growth of the monte wagon and what reasons people gave for joining it? Obvs the wolf is on there, but positioning, reasons, etc might be a clue.
that was more than 2 thoughts

---

If Katze town flip Cape next, F3 is some combination of me, you, cuth, sleep, rask; probs rask, sleep, cuth tbh

If Cape town flip Katze next, F3 again same combination.

should we get to f3 that is

flipping cape first and they are town basically means you have to flip katze next anyways. Flipping Katze town does not necessarily mean you have to flip cape next, but likely it does.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by katze

uh it kinda doesnt make sense when i write it out but in my head its like

i feel like my play today is really suboptimal for w!me and if i were a wolf then me taking cuth out of the "consensus" PoE while my proposed PoE doesn't have him in it (effectively meaning that my previously planned path to victory did not require a cuth ML) is kinda silly

and right now im in a position where i feel like my genuine opinions are getting me scumread more than me just taking the easy way out and letting you kill cuth which w!me would absolutely want to do

but yes, i've joked a ton this game that im being scumread because of #TheFear, and it's part of why i'm explicitly not trying to towncase myself or like, say that i think i'm obvious town. like... i think i am, i think hollowkatt has pointed out multiple reasons i am a villager this game, and i could point out more if i really wanted to.

but ultimately i'm just tired of it. if it's not cape i want to be voted out because being alive in a potential F3 in this game would just suck. and while i think i can make a good towncase on myself, it's probably just going to be met with #TheFear and not be worth my time. so im just accepting the fact that i'm getting executed this game and i'd likely shoot future w!katze games in the foot by explaining why i'm not a wolf here.

uhh that was probably a tangent but meh. i think cuth is town i think cape is mafia i want to kill cape today but if you kill me instead then my legacy is kill cape tomorrow and if that's not it then you're free to laugh at me in dvc/f3

---

i think ive talked about the order of the three of you that makes sense to do so i wont reiterate that.


i dont get why i keep trying to make you understand why i disagree so hard on why i think it mkaes sense for you as a wolf to play this way, because like, im not gonna make you scumread yourself right


but let me try one last time then im leaving this discussion behidn.

Quote:

---

i feel like my play today is really suboptimal for w!me and if i were a wolf then me taking cuth out of the "consensus" PoE while my proposed PoE doesn't have him in it (effectively meaning that my previously planned path to victory did not require a cuth ML) is kinda silly

---

You are wolf in f7/f9. There are 2 clears who wants to kill cuth. You know cuth is a misyeet, and strong voices want him dead. You shield cuth because if you can keep him alive as long as possible in the game - preferably to f3 - you will win with him being misyeeted the right moment. Having cuth die now is bad for you, in that it puts you as a higher priority target or maybe next in line even.




and im not going to have it as a main point here because its just an added-on thing rather than something that got me to this read on you - but the fac that you didnt seem certain enough to keep cuth in your clears when i asked if i was poe (you said id maybe swap cuth out, i just requoted it in one of my last posts) makes me feel like, you dont feel that strongly about cuth town really, you just want to keep doors open to adapt your play based on how game progresses



i really feel like im talking like someone deep in a tunnel now but thats why im going to go into tomorrow pretending to my brain that cape is my top wolfread and im already voting him to see if i can approach it froma diferent mindset than "i think its cuth or kazte."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by katze

this game is annoying because if i were mafia my path to victory would be shutting up and letting you kill cuth today and im being scumread for it and i kind of want to say "fuck it just kill cuth" but if i do that then i feel like i'd get scumread even more for it

yes this is a self conscious post

---

what's the basis for the town read on cuth AND, what do you think the last wolf was doing during EOD1?

Remember, here were the wagons:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Visor

Players Votes

ladd 4 (Winston Hughes, Cuthillius, Montmorency, Raskolnikov)
Newcomb 3 (Enderwiggin, katze, Sleep)
Raskolnikov 3 (Monstrdude, nebjiamn, Dobby)
Sleep 2 (ladd, Newcomb)
Csargo 2 (Cape90, hollowkatt)
Enderwiggin 1 (zack)
Montmorency 1 (Sunbae)
hollowkatt 1 (Csargo)


This is the final tally I have.

Pm me or dm me on discord if there are any corrections.

---

If Cape90 is the last wolf why not tie newcomb or rask with Ladd? if I'm the last wolf again, same thing. If it's Dobby (and I don't think you think it is) he could have joined ender on newcomb as well. same with sleep in terms of get Raskol, same with you in terms of get Raskol.

Basically I don't understand why Ladd died is what it all comes down to. anyways, ur thoughts would be appreciated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hollowkatt

If town is eating itself, and it appears as if we are, not getting involved is highly profitable for the last wolf. This is veering into random tinfoil territory and please slap me out of it if I'm being dumb, but it feels like the last wolf here wants us to continue being wrong more than they want to do anything of substance.

---

ive considered worlds where me/cuth/cape are all town and the last wolf is kinda just sitting to the side and letting the game play out because they don't need to do anything, and yeah in those worlds its basically always sleep/raskol

sleep i guess is tinfoilable but i don't really see myself considering raskol w any time soon? unless im flat out underestimating him i still think he's waaaaaay townier this game than he was in swag city and he still has eod1 going for him

i dont have the wim to do a metadive on him or anything so

wait nvm im never considering rask hes not w/w with monstr lol

so in that world i can rly only see it being sleep

shrug, i'll let it marinate in my head for a bit but i still think its just cape :p

i feel so incredibly uncomfy not having a good iso feature to get myself back up to speed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dobby

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hollowkatt

Anyways, I want to believe in my meta read on katze and I want to believe they're playing in a way that makes it very hard for katze wolf to win.
I want to believe in my read on Cape where he functionally vanishes when he's not being pressured or suspected and only pops back up to really get involved when he's carrying a few votes.

---

alright, checks out tbh.

can i just ask about the bolded tbh. I have stated a few times why i think this is exactly how katze wolf needs to play to win and i hope you read it and understood my viewpoint and if not let me know and ill try to rewrite it til you get how it could make sense for me because i feel like its vital to get that specific thing before deciding where you land

the cape read you're describing there - is that a thing he does as town or as wolf? I think its a kinda weak thing in meta terms ish but alrgugt.

And if it's a read on how cape plays as town, you are voting him now y tho

---

I put the bold back in for easy of reference.

Yes, I agree with you that w?Katze would have to play things out the way they have to win. I have walked that part backwards. I do still think there's a functional difference between how I've seen Katze wolf (champs/hydra) vs what I have seen here, but I will not rely purely on meta to make a read, that's just not something I can do.

I have no idea if that's how Cape wolfs or towns, it's just an observation on his play this game. He feels like he slips away when nobody is paying attention to him and only really makes bursts of posts when there's some amount of suspicion on him OR there's a push that needs input, which is why I generally prefer a Cape chop over a Katze chop, but I am coming around to the idea that neither of them can make F3.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dobby

i think ive talked about the order of the three of you that makes sense to do so i wont reiterate that.


i dont get why i keep trying to make you understand why i disagree so hard on why i think it mkaes sense for you as a wolf to play this way, because like, im not gonna make you scumread yourself right


but let me try one last time then im leaving this discussion behidn.



You are wolf in f7/f9. There are 2 clears who wants to kill cuth. You know cuth is a misyeet, and strong voices want him dead. You shield cuth because if you can keep him alive as long as possible in the game - preferably to f3 - you will win with him being misyeeted the right moment. Having cuth die now is bad for you, in that it puts you as a higher priority target or maybe next in line even.




and im not going to have it as a main point here because its just an added-on thing rather than something that got me to this read on you - but the fac that you didnt seem certain enough to keep cuth in your clears when i asked if i was poe (you said id maybe swap cuth out, i just requoted it in one of my last posts) makes me feel like, you dont feel that strongly about cuth town really, you just want to keep doors open to adapt your play based on how game progresses



i really feel like im talking like someone deep in a tunnel now but thats why im going to go into tomorrow pretending to my brain that cape is my top wolfread and im already voting him to see if i can approach it froma diferent mindset than "i think its cuth or kazte."

---

to bolded specifically: i felt strongly that the wolf was in cape/monte and said as such, i emphasized that i thought your play around then was very villagery to me

and yeah i GET that w!me would be happy to bring a tinfoiled v!cuth to f3 but i think (thought? probably doesnt even apply that much anymore due to the sheer amount of tinfoil there, in my eyes w!me would always kill him before f3 tho) he'd prob just get NKed before F3 anyway

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hollowkatt

what's the basis for the town read on cuth AND, what do you think the last wolf was doing during EOD1?

Remember, here were the wagons:



If Cape90 is the last wolf why not tie newcomb or rask with Ladd? if I'm the last wolf again, same thing. If it's Dobby (and I don't think you think it is) he could have joined ender on newcomb as well. same with sleep in terms of get Raskol, same with you in terms of get Raskol.

Basically I don't understand why Ladd died is what it all comes down to. anyways, ur thoughts would be appreciated.

---

im p sure cape wasnt around during EoD?

weh

whatever im not shielding cuth anymore

this isn't worth my sanity

go fucking wild i still think he's a villager

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by katze

ive considered worlds where me/cuth/cape are all town and the last wolf is kinda just sitting to the side and letting the game play out because they don't need to do anything, and yeah in those worlds its basically always sleep/raskol

sleep i guess is tinfoilable but i don't really see myself considering raskol w any time soon? unless im flat out underestimating him i still think he's waaaaaay townier this game than he was in swag city and he still has eod1 going for him

i dont have the wim to do a metadive on him or anything so

wait nvm im never considering rask hes not w/w with monstr lol

so in that world i can rly only see it being sleep

shrug, i'll let it marinate in my head for a bit but i still think its just cape :p

---

flat out agree with you that if you, cape, and cuth are all clear the last wolf 100% of the time is within sleep/raskol.

if dobby and myself both make F3 I will tinfoil him as the wolf b/c I think he's been townie enough to die soon, probably tonight.

BTW before i forget


This is one of the most impressive wolf performances on MU imo and it's cuth's

It's a 15er

Cuth, Master Radishes and Macdougall are the wolves, SUPER stacked playerlist.

D1 MR gets eliminated

D3 Macdougall gets eliminated. Cuth plays solo until D7 (!!!!!!!!) and gets to F3, and just wins. Just read bits of that game, look at cuth's tone. He plays so fuckin well (sorry cuth i know you dont like it when i give you compliments) and i feel like it's that kind of wolf performance that everyone should have in mind always


Macdougall
nutella
Dp101
Lissa
Cuthalion
Logic
Mantichora
Boquise
Ephemeral
Waluigi (atpg)
Frog
Hally
Master Radishes
Chemist1422
Marcher Jovian




Look at this EoD1.

Just the votes

This is the votecount at :57

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...66/unknown.png

Cuth makes a vote to make it

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...10/unknown.png

and then MR gets a few quick votes and gets yeeted.


Idk just skim through his posts there and tell me you dont think he could be wolf based on tone and eod. comparing him to sf and saying "his tone is similar to his towngame" instead of saying "his tone is different from his wolfgame" is... one carries a lot more weight than the other imo.