Sorceror 17er Game Thread

[Dobby]

anyway i'm gonna try to explain my mindset rn because i think the misunderstandings are coming from me being lazy more than anything and being misunderstood is a bit of a peeve of mine so i should stop not doing myself any favors:

i think this game is still easy; i don't really feel obligated to... try that hard to win it? like, i feel pretty good about it just being in monty or cape. if it's not there, i expect to get executed, and i might fight that a bit if it comes to it because i'm a stubborn bastard but i've already basically accepted it.


Alive: (9/17)
2. nebjiamn
3. cuthillius
6. Raskolnikov
11. Montmorency
12. roro__b
14. katze
15. Sleep
16. Cape90
17. hollowkatt

five clears still wins the game. i've been kinda solving as if i'd be one of them because i'm a villager but i get it. i'll be grumpy about it but i get it. five clears outside of myself should still be pretty easy anyway

my first clear is still raskol. i mean the lazy raeson is "lol if they're w/w with monstr" but also like, i still think they're way townier than the time i've seen them wolf (yes the situations are different, i still think the difference is quite massive), they're pretty unassociated with ladd as well... it's still lazy but i'm still confident it's correct

scond clear would still be benneh - this one is a lot less concrete in terms of "well they're obviously not w/w with the flipped wolves" - although i do think ladd treated benneh/zack p much identically and given zack flipped V he was prob just trying to pocket them both - i think benneh is just really villagery this game lmao. i was a bit paranoid towards EoD1 cause it felt like we were a bit too on the same page at times so when he just stoppd posting and kinda just sheeped me i thought it might just be deliberate, but ehhh. i've talked myself out of that and think from my experience with him he's kinda just a villager. yes this is mostly turbo/mash experience, shut up. newcomb flipping V only really reinforces this because in my experience it's way fucking harder to mindmeld with a villager about another villager than a villager about a wolf. also newcomb felt really strongly about it too :wowee:

third is cuth, and i really do not understand why people are trying to throw that name back out? i was tempted to put him above benneh simply because i think they're both villagers anyway and if they're both villagers then the order doesn't matter so me putting him higher would make people feel dumber if they went against the word of everybody, but i mean. i am technically more confident in the above two

anyway uh. again, the easy answer is "cuths EoD1 is just flat out terrible play if he's mafia ngl" but also like... there's a level of. i don't know the right word. i kinda just... feel like they're the same as they were in SF2 on like d3 onwards? the slightly-deflated-because-wrong cuth? idk. i just get about the same vibes. if the above two reads are a 10/10 in confidence this one is like a 9.5/10 still

number four... it gets a bit harder, i can't really pick one or the other so i'll just say both sleep and hollowkatt --

sleep because i'm pretty sure every player on D1 who asked about "who is sleep" has since then flipped mafia which probably just spews him V right there and now that i type this out why is this below cuth? i guess he did try to clear ender off of ladds flip? sure we'll go with that. anyway sleep is the player in this game that i read their posts and i kinda just naturally feel inclined to townread them. most games have one of these players, in my experience they're almost always villagers that i talk myself out of townreading out of paranoia at some point. i think the early cape case was still a genuine attempt to solve (note for the future: if the game is hard go double check who was under pressure around the time it got posted, i don't remember) and one of those posts that a wolf just doesn't write in most worlds

i guess there's still a little bit of paranoia here, because i feel like both of their EoDs weren't especially clearing off of memory, but i still think they're really fucking villagery and criticizing someone for being wrong on newcomb after *glances in a mirror* is kinda joycat of me

and then HK is. well, okay, i'll fully admit the fact he was basically shielding me earlier was a part of it, so the fact that changed saddens me and may have lowered him a bit subconsciously, but i think the dude's still just a villager off of posting alone. pretty sure he has some D1 posts that have aged like wine wrt "interactions with wolves" but i'm not opening an iso for a thoughtdump post that ruins the point of it

---

so like, i'm pretty happy with those 5

my thoughts beyond those 5 are like

well, i'm me, i'm town. hi me.

dobby has been pretty hard shielded by people i think are town and i'm not 100% sold on it personally but it kinda feels right, so i think you're probably town

and it leaves monty and cape, both people who like

i thought monty was villagery late D1. i recognize the reasons as not being great. but they existed. i recognize that the dead villagers have been significantly more anti-monty than they have been anti-cape. they haven't really been favorable towards either, tho

...i mean tbh if majority was enabled id have exactly zero problem killing either one first and then the other if it that doesn't end it but i want this game to be over or for me to die so i can do what i truly want to do and stop actually putting effort into this game. because i think it's solved. i don't think more effort is necessary. but i feel obligated to exist in thread because i agreed to play it, so here i am.

i'm not particularly happy with my play this game, and me slam dunking on the last wolf wouldn't change that either, so. i'd feel worse off if i were misclearing a wolf, i don't think i'd feel worse off if i got MLed because i frankly deserve it and have deservd it in multiple of my past towngames anyway

so... yeah. i deviated a lot from why i originally wrote this post but i'm pretty sure the intent is in there somewhere and if not then joycat

okay so if im going to make an attempt to get out of my tunnel, im gonna do it based ont his post to an extent because its the collected kat thoughts and easier to process and its just, a list, lists are good, usually.

Five clears wins the game - yes, that's my issue, based on the poes and reads of the players in the games we dont have those clears :p

the rask read makes sense, its a TRUE read (whether katze is town or not, and they cant be teamed so i think like, either way on two more fronts we can say rask is town, dont think you need to tinfoil even @hollowkatt, although id liek to see more rasktivity (teehee i made up a word im funny 12/10 on a scale tbh)

benneh is dead

the cuth read is still there based on eod1 and "similar to a previosu towngame (btw theres at least one game ive hosted where cuth was wolf and just shat on everyone so like, he is very very capable as wolf i just feel like i dont even know what cuth has posted recently (as a contributing issue for me probabbly now that i think of it)

the HK/Sleep cases are followable tbh

the dobby tinfoil exists but sure

and yeah i guess, having cape and monty in the bottom two without cases but more like, tehyre not in the clears so therefore they can go, makes sense

[Dobby]

that probably wasnt useful at all eh

[Sleep]

trying to bring my brain back into the game without context at that katze post feels tonally scummy which is a dumb way to analyze a wallpost but w/e

[Sleep]

revisiting day 1. i know theres recent content i havent processed but i kind of want to mind wipe and draw my own conclusions

[Sleep]

(i am not considering any of the ladd voters anymore though)

[hollowkatt]

ur face is


hk


are you town, did i misclear you because you were nice in our exchange


dont lie to me

I am town. You did misclear me because I'm nice. You should have miscleared me b/c of how many wolves were town reading me. Especially the ones that know they can push me across the line.

Really though the best reason I can say that I'm town is that I have too narrow of a POE to actually get the chops I need to win the game.
For me to really succeed here I need to keep as many options open as I can so that I can easily fall in line with "whatever the town pushes" instead of trying to clear people like katze and raskol.

[Dobby]

2 more dumb thoughts on why benneh died over raskolnikov


rask pushed cuth super hard, benneh pushed cuth pretty hard

there wasa little tinfoil on benneh expressed (or maybe just from me) in thread so that couldve potentially been taken advantage of by wolf


rask not dying could be because the woof wants cuth to keep being hard pushed by someone (although benneh did it too he wasnt as passionate about it as rask was)

and theres also the viewpoint where, if rask does die, reading into "why did rask die over benneh" would be 500 red fat arrows pointing at cuth


but that could also be done to get a free kill on cuth


but having cuth in f3 is a cool thing for wolves if cuth is town because ending the game without cuth dying is like... kinda lol








and yes to clarify my issue with today because i dont think i have worded it out (im bolding because i think reading this post will be awful if anyone even tries it and this might improve readability but i think i have actually good thoughts here)



READ THIS PART IF UR GONNA READ ANYTHING pls


I was very set on Cuth or Katze yoink for today, and Katze is hard shielding Cuth now. Meaning if I'm going to trust Katze as town or potential town, I need to find someone outside of those two. That'd probably be Cape. But katze and Cuth feel way higher on my priority list. And it's a perfect scenario for wolf katze to try and get to endstages of the game with. It's not as beneficial for anyone else.

So if Katze is actually town, the Cuth read is real. If Cuth is town, Katzes read on Cuth could be fake, but Katze can also go back to saying "I was wrong sorry" and it won't get us any closer to solving Katze, and then we either yoink katze or we go someone else and BAM f3 where anything can happen.

So like, any logical thoughts i might have just tell me Katze is the best yeet, but looking at the above, another yoink chain that doesn't make the game impossible COULD be Cape -> Katze and then f3 with Cuth +2 (probably HK and me or Sleep unless someone wants to keep the rask tinfoil alive)


That would mean we leave Cuth til f3. But if Cape is town, we HAVE to kill katze after for any of it to make sense according to the above, and uh, sure that is fine but awful to drag the game out


that was more than 2 thoughts

[Dobby]

I am town. You did misclear me because I'm nice. You should have miscleared me b/c of how many wolves were town reading me. Especially the ones that know they can push me across the line.

Really though the best reason I can say that I'm town is that I have too narrow of a POE to actually get the chops I need to win the game.
For me to really succeed here I need to keep as many options open as I can so that I can easily fall in line with "whatever the town pushes" instead of trying to clear people like katze and raskol.

clearing becuse of wolves townreading you is bad lol

i like the narrow poe thing, ur good

if we are in f3 ill care but yeah, i think i had a chain of posts linked that id love to see answered but thats just for ease of mind smth and seeing if i can find out what others find is good abotu katze


(also youre describing what i think katze is doing - speaking of your asking me what made me sus katze, keeping the poe open, focusing on poe adjacent slots and trying to make actual poe slots live til later, perfect example of how to efficiently keep the poe widened without being obvious about it)

[katze]

weh

[katze]

this game is annoying because if i were mafia my path to victory would be shutting up and letting you kill cuth today and im being scumread for it and i kind of want to say "fuck it just kill cuth" but if i do that then i feel like i'd get scumread even more for it

yes this is a self conscious post

[hollowkatt]

if you dont want broken quotes the linked post is the one im quoting below










@hollowkatt i just clicked through a few pages afte rthis but can you explain these flips from kat lock to kat vote to some reasoning not leading anywhere to now saying kat town

i mightve missed a few flops and stuff in between but its easier to ask you than to iso on this godforgotten site (i just wanted to use that word no offense)

Sure, I can talk about that for a while.

I've been town reading katze for most of the game and do think the meta read that I dropped is still pretty valid. But in the interest of doing my due diligence I went back through the votes in the run-up to EOD1.

D1 is the only day when a wolf really got wagoned, pressured, and then eliminated. The D2 wolf was a bomb and the D3 wolf was from a bomb as well. So D1 is really the best associatives day that we have available to us. It's also the day when the most groundwork is being laid and people have, generally speaking, the flimsiest reasons for reads just because there's less to work with.

That being said the large post you quoted (fuck this site for multiquotes btw) clearly starts out with a "what if" situation. I wrote that post assuming everyone on the Ladd wagon was pure, and worked the game from that angle, which lead me to Cape/Katze as the last people where the wolf could be hiding.

I cleared Monte and Cuth by virtue of how they arrived at the Ladd wagon, where they were before hand, and thinking about why/how a partner would bus their valuable PR (yes I think even N3 sorcerer has value) compared to any of the goons (monstr tbh would have been a great bus target there).

Then when I was doing my re-read of D1 looking at what Ladd had posted I came across the post where Ladd tells Katze to run EOD and wondered how that spewed Katze. I concluded that it could be a bad look.

After removing the Ladd wagon from possible wolf-pack members it was down to me, you, neb, katze, cape. Obvs I remove myself. Neb was obvs town. I got to a town read on you when we were talking during D2 when you were pushing me. You weren't posting like you knew my alignment so I went with the assumption that you were legit solving me, not pushing me to get a mischop.

That would literally leave Katze and Cape and that I could find reasons to town read both of them.

Katze via meta in terms of their wolf game being holistically different than what I've seen here, and Cape b/c he does have some good thoughts and good posts.

I decided to try voting Katze to see what anyone else would say or think about that, whether or not it would start a wagon or if I would get push back. Unfortunately that post was largely ignored until you brought it up now.

When I didn't get any traction on Katze I decided that maybe I was seeing things that aren't there, and that maybe clearing the entire ladd wagon wasn't a smart idea, so I went back eventually to monte for the chop. Do regret that chop.

Anyways, I want to believe in my meta read on katze and I want to believe they're playing in a way that makes it very hard for katze wolf to win.
I want to believe in my read on Cape where he functionally vanishes when he's not being pressured or suspected and only pops back up to really get involved when he's carrying a few votes.

[Sleep]

i guess i f i could explain my feelings on reading that katze post in more tangible terms, it feels like she's willing herself toward conclusions rather than letting them form. this is possibly dumb! i know it's more or less her writing style

[Sleep]

this game is annoying because if i were mafia my path to victory would be shutting up and letting you kill cuth today and im being scumread for it and i kind of want to say "fuck it just kill cuth" but if i do that then i feel like i'd get scumread even more for it

yes this is a self conscious post

ok

i mean im gstill gonna reread cape having finally played a game with him where i just locktowned him and never looked back

[katze]

ok

i mean im gstill gonna reread cape having finally played a game with him where i just locktowned him and never looked back

i thought he was way townier from my following of that game but i didn't read it super closely so im not going to force that conclusion on you

[Dobby]

im hrete at 4:15am after a night out playing mafia with big brain thoughts, and this isnt even my final form pls kill me before f3




Vote: Cape90


I'm going to read everything by and about Cape tomorrow during what little time i have and see if i'm being too nice to him tbqpph. If i wake up before 5pm ill have a couple of hours to do it, hopefully i will.


I think ((or im fairly confident in it) we dont vote cuth here. See my last post. I think instead of taking this one step at a time we need to optimize for f3. Who do we want in f3, and who do we NOT want there. And, on the way to f3, what gives us the most to work with. Pls see my last post :wowee: . I think the correct yeet is either Katze or Cape. I have a ton of stuff in my brain yellin at me to vote kat and stuff but i want to get this right but any order of cape/katze is fine.

If i vote katze, its because i vote the one that makes most sense for me to be scum

If i vote cape its because that'd lead to katze, if her strat is the one im talking about, having to change strategy to get to f3.

If i vote cuth itd be because its also a vote that makes sense to make, but not getting as strong w vibes like i do with kat. So mh


Unless rask comes in and tries to bruteforce a cuth yoink to try and end the game i might focus on cape mainly, with a side of katze



but ill leave my vote for now to pressure myself into spending time that i shouldnt have on this

[Dobby]

this game is annoying because if i were mafia my path to victory would be shutting up and letting you kill cuth today and im being scumread for it and i kind of want to say "fuck it just kill cuth" but if i do that then i feel like i'd get scumread even more for it

yes this is a self conscious post

idk if i can make it make sense but

being mafia and especially good at mafia (i havent wanted to say it til now because im sure it sucks to hear but, ur champ after a wolf win tbh and not without reason) means you dont do what youre expected to do as mafia, right? i literally just talked about what your approach to a cuth yoink could be and how youd proceed from there in one of my rants

and it makes more sense for me that you play like you do right now as wolf, than if youd be on a cuth wagon or let cuth die. because this way of playing takes w!katze to f3 without it looking weird. if cuth dies, you will have more eyes on you.

(also reread your sentence it doesnt make sense lol. if i were mafia id let cuth die but i cant let cuth die because id get more scumread for it"

unless im smolbraining here

[Dobby]

Sure, I can talk about that for a while.

I've been town reading katze for most of the game and do think the meta read that I dropped is still pretty valid. But in the interest of doing my due diligence I went back through the votes in the run-up to EOD1.

D1 is the only day when a wolf really got wagoned, pressured, and then eliminated. The D2 wolf was a bomb and the D3 wolf was from a bomb as well. So D1 is really the best associatives day that we have available to us. It's also the day when the most groundwork is being laid and people have, generally speaking, the flimsiest reasons for reads just because there's less to work with.

That being said the large post you quoted (fuck this site for multiquotes btw) clearly starts out with a "what if" situation. I wrote that post assuming everyone on the Ladd wagon was pure, and worked the game from that angle, which lead me to Cape/Katze as the last people where the wolf could be hiding.

I cleared Monte and Cuth by virtue of how they arrived at the Ladd wagon, where they were before hand, and thinking about why/how a partner would bus their valuable PR (yes I think even N3 sorcerer has value) compared to any of the goons (monstr tbh would have been a great bus target there).

Then when I was doing my re-read of D1 looking at what Ladd had posted I came across the post where Ladd tells Katze to run EOD and wondered how that spewed Katze. I concluded that it could be a bad look.

After removing the Ladd wagon from possible wolf-pack members it was down to me, you, neb, katze, cape. Obvs I remove myself. Neb was obvs town. I got to a town read on you when we were talking during D2 when you were pushing me. You weren't posting like you knew my alignment so I went with the assumption that you were legit solving me, not pushing me to get a mischop.

That would literally leave Katze and Cape and that I could find reasons to town read both of them.

Katze via meta in terms of their wolf game being holistically different than what I've seen here, and Cape b/c he does have some good thoughts and good posts.

I decided to try voting Katze to see what anyone else would say or think about that, whether or not it would start a wagon or if I would get push back. Unfortunately that post was largely ignored until you brought it up now.

When I didn't get any traction on Katze I decided that maybe I was seeing things that aren't there, and that maybe clearing the entire ladd wagon wasn't a smart idea, so I went back eventually to monte for the chop. Do regret that chop.

Anyways, I want to believe in my meta read on katze and I want to believe they're playing in a way that makes it very hard for katze wolf to win.
I want to believe in my read on Cape where he functionally vanishes when he's not being pressured or suspected and only pops back up to really get involved when he's carrying a few votes.

alright, checks out tbh.

can i just ask about the bolded tbh. I have stated a few times why i think this is exactly how katze wolf needs to play to win and i hope you read it and understood my viewpoint and if not let me know and ill try to rewrite it til you get how it could make sense for me because i feel like its vital to get that specific thing before deciding where you land

the cape read you're describing there - is that a thing he does as town or as wolf? I think its a kinda weak thing in meta terms ish but alrgugt.

And if it's a read on how cape plays as town, you are voting him now y tho

[katze]

idk if i can make it make sense but

being mafia and especially good at mafia (i havent wanted to say it til now because im sure it sucks to hear but, ur champ after a wolf win tbh and not without reason) means you dont do what youre expected to do as mafia, right? i literally just talked about what your approach to a cuth yoink could be and how youd proceed from there in one of my rants

and it makes more sense for me that you play like you do right now as wolf, than if youd be on a cuth wagon or let cuth die. because this way of playing takes w!katze to f3 without it looking weird. if cuth dies, you will have more eyes on you.

(also reread your sentence it doesnt make sense lol. if i were mafia id let cuth die but i cant let cuth die because id get more scumread for it"

unless im smolbraining here

uh it kinda doesnt make sense when i write it out but in my head its like

i feel like my play today is really suboptimal for w!me and if i were a wolf then me taking cuth out of the "consensus" PoE while my proposed PoE doesn't have him in it (effectively meaning that my previously planned path to victory did not require a cuth ML) is kinda silly

and right now im in a position where i feel like my genuine opinions are getting me scumread more than me just taking the easy way out and letting you kill cuth which w!me would absolutely want to do

but yes, i've joked a ton this game that im being scumread because of #TheFear, and it's part of why i'm explicitly not trying to towncase myself or like, say that i think i'm obvious town. like... i think i am, i think hollowkatt has pointed out multiple reasons i am a villager this game, and i could point out more if i really wanted to.

but ultimately i'm just tired of it. if it's not cape i want to be voted out because being alive in a potential F3 in this game would just suck. and while i think i can make a good towncase on myself, it's probably just going to be met with #TheFear and not be worth my time. so im just accepting the fact that i'm getting executed this game and i'd likely shoot future w!katze games in the foot by explaining why i'm not a wolf here.

uhh that was probably a tangent but meh. i think cuth is town i think cape is mafia i want to kill cape today but if you kill me instead then my legacy is kill cape tomorrow and if that's not it then you're free to laugh at me in dvc/f3

[Dobby]

i guess i f i could explain my feelings on reading that katze post in more tangible terms, it feels like she's willing herself toward conclusions rather than letting them form. this is possibly dumb! i know it's more or less her writing style

trying to bring my brain back into the game without context at that katze post feels tonally scummy which is a dumb way to analyze a wallpost but w/e

its definitely part of the tonal part of my motivation fr why i think it could be kat so i get and share it :P

[katze]

being called tonally wolfy is actually p new to me, in usually i get toneread V regardless of alignment

[hollowkatt]

clearing becuse of wolves townreading you is bad lol

i like the narrow poe thing, ur good

if we are in f3 ill care but yeah, i think i had a chain of posts linked that id love to see answered but thats just for ease of mind smth and seeing if i can find out what others find is good abotu katze


(also youre describing what i think katze is doing - speaking of your asking me what made me sus katze, keeping the poe open, focusing on poe adjacent slots and trying to make actual poe slots live til later, perfect example of how to efficiently keep the poe widened without being obvious about it)

I yam yeah.

ok, I want to believe you, and this ties into a post I haven't written yet responding with my thoughts on your post before the one I'm responding to.

If Katze = wolf great, game is over.
If Katze = town and dies today do we get any closer to understanding who the last wolf is? Town Katze town reading Cuth I think is a good look for Cuth because Katze is a smart cookie and when town generally has really good insights into what other people are doing.

Katze town doesn't really give us more information on Cape as Katze is shielding Cape far less than they are shielding Cuth.

Wolf Katze probably doesn't care about shielding Cape, town Katze probably cares more about shielding Cuth just in terms of raw potential for the rest of the game should town katze be killed.

The longer we go sans Raskol the more I want to wolf read him. Partially because in this situation/game state inactivity is very wolfy.

If town is eating itself, and it appears as if we are, not getting involved is highly profitable for the last wolf. This is veering into random tinfoil territory and please slap me out of it if I'm being dumb, but it feels like the last wolf here wants us to continue being wrong more than they want to do anything of substance.

This could also point to Cuth and Sleep today. At least the three of us (me, you, katze) are showing up and making posts. Meh and weh I guess?

If we're wrong and it's not Katze I want to think about who dies next. Probs within you, me, maybe sleep. Probs not cape, cuth, or raskol.

There's 7 of us alive, one is a wolf.

6 - 1
be wrong
5 - 1
nk
4 - 1
be wrong
3 - 1
nk
2 - 1

if we can be wrong twice tbh does it really matter?

I decided I'm not responding to the post you made above this post, I'm just gonna quote it here:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

2 more dumb thoughts on why benneh died over raskolnikov


rask pushed cuth super hard, benneh pushed cuth pretty hard

there wasa little tinfoil on benneh expressed (or maybe just from me) in thread so that couldve potentially been taken advantage of by wolf


rask not dying could be because the woof wants cuth to keep being hard pushed by someone (although benneh did it too he wasnt as passionate about it as rask was)

and theres also the viewpoint where, if rask does die, reading into "why did rask die over benneh" would be 500 red fat arrows pointing at cuth


but that could also be done to get a free kill on cuth


but having cuth in f3 is a cool thing for wolves if cuth is town because ending the game without cuth dying is like... kinda lol








and yes to clarify my issue with today because i dont think i have worded it out (im bolding because i think reading this post will be awful if anyone even tries it and this might improve readability but i think i have actually good thoughts here)



READ THIS PART IF UR GONNA READ ANYTHING pls


I was very set on Cuth or Katze yoink for today, and Katze is hard shielding Cuth now. Meaning if I'm going to trust Katze as town or potential town, I need to find someone outside of those two. That'd probably be Cape. But katze and Cuth feel way higher on my priority list. And it's a perfect scenario for wolf katze to try and get to endstages of the game with. It's not as beneficial for anyone else.

So if Katze is actually town, the Cuth read is real. If Cuth is town, Katzes read on Cuth could be fake, but Katze can also go back to saying "I was wrong sorry" and it won't get us any closer to solving Katze, and then we either yoink katze or we go someone else and BAM f3 where anything can happen.

So like, any logical thoughts i might have just tell me Katze is the best yeet, but looking at the above, another yoink chain that doesn't make the game impossible COULD be Cape -> Katze and then f3 with Cuth +2 (probably HK and me or Sleep unless someone wants to keep the rask tinfoil alive)


That would mean we leave Cuth til f3. But if Cape is town, we HAVE to kill katze after for any of it to make sense according to the above, and uh, sure that is fine but awful to drag the game out

On a completely unrelated note, is there value in understanding the growth of the monte wagon and what reasons people gave for joining it? Obvs the wolf is on there, but positioning, reasons, etc might be a clue.
that was more than 2 thoughts

If Katze town flip Cape next, F3 is some combination of me, you, cuth, sleep, rask; probs rask, sleep, cuth tbh

If Cape town flip Katze next, F3 again same combination.

should we get to f3 that is

flipping cape first and they are town basically means you have to flip katze next anyways. Flipping Katze town does not necessarily mean you have to flip cape next, but likely it does.

[Dobby]

uh it kinda doesnt make sense when i write it out but in my head its like

i feel like my play today is really suboptimal for w!me and if i were a wolf then me taking cuth out of the "consensus" PoE while my proposed PoE doesn't have him in it (effectively meaning that my previously planned path to victory did not require a cuth ML) is kinda silly

and right now im in a position where i feel like my genuine opinions are getting me scumread more than me just taking the easy way out and letting you kill cuth which w!me would absolutely want to do

but yes, i've joked a ton this game that im being scumread because of #TheFear, and it's part of why i'm explicitly not trying to towncase myself or like, say that i think i'm obvious town. like... i think i am, i think hollowkatt has pointed out multiple reasons i am a villager this game, and i could point out more if i really wanted to.

but ultimately i'm just tired of it. if it's not cape i want to be voted out because being alive in a potential F3 in this game would just suck. and while i think i can make a good towncase on myself, it's probably just going to be met with #TheFear and not be worth my time. so im just accepting the fact that i'm getting executed this game and i'd likely shoot future w!katze games in the foot by explaining why i'm not a wolf here.

uhh that was probably a tangent but meh. i think cuth is town i think cape is mafia i want to kill cape today but if you kill me instead then my legacy is kill cape tomorrow and if that's not it then you're free to laugh at me in dvc/f3

i think ive talked about the order of the three of you that makes sense to do so i wont reiterate that.


i dont get why i keep trying to make you understand why i disagree so hard on why i think it mkaes sense for you as a wolf to play this way, because like, im not gonna make you scumread yourself right


but let me try one last time then im leaving this discussion behidn.

i feel like my play today is really suboptimal for w!me and if i were a wolf then me taking cuth out of the "consensus" PoE while my proposed PoE doesn't have him in it (effectively meaning that my previously planned path to victory did not require a cuth ML) is kinda silly

You are wolf in f7/f9. There are 2 clears who wants to kill cuth. You know cuth is a misyeet, and strong voices want him dead. You shield cuth because if you can keep him alive as long as possible in the game - preferably to f3 - you will win with him being misyeeted the right moment. Having cuth die now is bad for you, in that it puts you as a higher priority target or maybe next in line even.




and im not going to have it as a main point here because its just an added-on thing rather than something that got me to this read on you - but the fac that you didnt seem certain enough to keep cuth in your clears when i asked if i was poe (you said id maybe swap cuth out, i just requoted it in one of my last posts) makes me feel like, you dont feel that strongly about cuth town really, you just want to keep doors open to adapt your play based on how game progresses



i really feel like im talking like someone deep in a tunnel now but thats why im going to go into tomorrow pretending to my brain that cape is my top wolfread and im already voting him to see if i can approach it froma diferent mindset than "i think its cuth or kazte."

[hollowkatt]

this game is annoying because if i were mafia my path to victory would be shutting up and letting you kill cuth today and im being scumread for it and i kind of want to say "fuck it just kill cuth" but if i do that then i feel like i'd get scumread even more for it

yes this is a self conscious post

what's the basis for the town read on cuth AND, what do you think the last wolf was doing during EOD1?

Remember, here were the wagons:

Players Votes

ladd 4 (Winston Hughes, Cuthillius, Montmorency, Raskolnikov)
Newcomb 3 (Enderwiggin, katze, Sleep)
Raskolnikov 3 (Monstrdude, nebjiamn, Dobby)
Sleep 2 (ladd, Newcomb)
Csargo 2 (Cape90, hollowkatt)
Enderwiggin 1 (zack)
Montmorency 1 (Sunbae)
hollowkatt 1 (Csargo)


This is the final tally I have.

Pm me or dm me on discord if there are any corrections.

If Cape90 is the last wolf why not tie newcomb or rask with Ladd? if I'm the last wolf again, same thing. If it's Dobby (and I don't think you think it is) he could have joined ender on newcomb as well. same with sleep in terms of get Raskol, same with you in terms of get Raskol.

Basically I don't understand why Ladd died is what it all comes down to. anyways, ur thoughts would be appreciated.

[katze]

If town is eating itself, and it appears as if we are, not getting involved is highly profitable for the last wolf. This is veering into random tinfoil territory and please slap me out of it if I'm being dumb, but it feels like the last wolf here wants us to continue being wrong more than they want to do anything of substance.

ive considered worlds where me/cuth/cape are all town and the last wolf is kinda just sitting to the side and letting the game play out because they don't need to do anything, and yeah in those worlds its basically always sleep/raskol

sleep i guess is tinfoilable but i don't really see myself considering raskol w any time soon? unless im flat out underestimating him i still think he's waaaaaay townier this game than he was in swag city and he still has eod1 going for him

i dont have the wim to do a metadive on him or anything so

wait nvm im never considering rask hes not w/w with monstr lol

so in that world i can rly only see it being sleep

shrug, i'll let it marinate in my head for a bit but i still think its just cape :p

[Sleep]

i feel so incredibly uncomfy not having a good iso feature to get myself back up to speed

[hollowkatt]

Anyways, I want to believe in my meta read on katze and I want to believe they're playing in a way that makes it very hard for katze wolf to win.
I want to believe in my read on Cape where he functionally vanishes when he's not being pressured or suspected and only pops back up to really get involved when he's carrying a few votes.

alright, checks out tbh.

can i just ask about the bolded tbh. I have stated a few times why i think this is exactly how katze wolf needs to play to win and i hope you read it and understood my viewpoint and if not let me know and ill try to rewrite it til you get how it could make sense for me because i feel like its vital to get that specific thing before deciding where you land

the cape read you're describing there - is that a thing he does as town or as wolf? I think its a kinda weak thing in meta terms ish but alrgugt.

And if it's a read on how cape plays as town, you are voting him now y tho

I put the bold back in for easy of reference.

Yes, I agree with you that w?Katze would have to play things out the way they have to win. I have walked that part backwards. I do still think there's a functional difference between how I've seen Katze wolf (champs/hydra) vs what I have seen here, but I will not rely purely on meta to make a read, that's just not something I can do.

I have no idea if that's how Cape wolfs or towns, it's just an observation on his play this game. He feels like he slips away when nobody is paying attention to him and only really makes bursts of posts when there's some amount of suspicion on him OR there's a push that needs input, which is why I generally prefer a Cape chop over a Katze chop, but I am coming around to the idea that neither of them can make F3.

[katze]

i think ive talked about the order of the three of you that makes sense to do so i wont reiterate that.


i dont get why i keep trying to make you understand why i disagree so hard on why i think it mkaes sense for you as a wolf to play this way, because like, im not gonna make you scumread yourself right


but let me try one last time then im leaving this discussion behidn.



You are wolf in f7/f9. There are 2 clears who wants to kill cuth. You know cuth is a misyeet, and strong voices want him dead. You shield cuth because if you can keep him alive as long as possible in the game - preferably to f3 - you will win with him being misyeeted the right moment. Having cuth die now is bad for you, in that it puts you as a higher priority target or maybe next in line even.




and im not going to have it as a main point here because its just an added-on thing rather than something that got me to this read on you - but the fac that you didnt seem certain enough to keep cuth in your clears when i asked if i was poe (you said id maybe swap cuth out, i just requoted it in one of my last posts) makes me feel like, you dont feel that strongly about cuth town really, you just want to keep doors open to adapt your play based on how game progresses



i really feel like im talking like someone deep in a tunnel now but thats why im going to go into tomorrow pretending to my brain that cape is my top wolfread and im already voting him to see if i can approach it froma diferent mindset than "i think its cuth or kazte."

to bolded specifically: i felt strongly that the wolf was in cape/monte and said as such, i emphasized that i thought your play around then was very villagery to me

and yeah i GET that w!me would be happy to bring a tinfoiled v!cuth to f3 but i think (thought? probably doesnt even apply that much anymore due to the sheer amount of tinfoil there, in my eyes w!me would always kill him before f3 tho) he'd prob just get NKed before F3 anyway

what's the basis for the town read on cuth AND, what do you think the last wolf was doing during EOD1?

Remember, here were the wagons:



If Cape90 is the last wolf why not tie newcomb or rask with Ladd? if I'm the last wolf again, same thing. If it's Dobby (and I don't think you think it is) he could have joined ender on newcomb as well. same with sleep in terms of get Raskol, same with you in terms of get Raskol.

Basically I don't understand why Ladd died is what it all comes down to. anyways, ur thoughts would be appreciated.

im p sure cape wasnt around during EoD?

[katze]

weh

whatever im not shielding cuth anymore

this isn't worth my sanity

go fucking wild i still think he's a villager

[hollowkatt]

ive considered worlds where me/cuth/cape are all town and the last wolf is kinda just sitting to the side and letting the game play out because they don't need to do anything, and yeah in those worlds its basically always sleep/raskol

sleep i guess is tinfoilable but i don't really see myself considering raskol w any time soon? unless im flat out underestimating him i still think he's waaaaaay townier this game than he was in swag city and he still has eod1 going for him

i dont have the wim to do a metadive on him or anything so

wait nvm im never considering rask hes not w/w with monstr lol

so in that world i can rly only see it being sleep

shrug, i'll let it marinate in my head for a bit but i still think its just cape :p

flat out agree with you that if you, cape, and cuth are all clear the last wolf 100% of the time is within sleep/raskol.

if dobby and myself both make F3 I will tinfoil him as the wolf b/c I think he's been townie enough to die soon, probably tonight.

[Dobby]

BTW before i forget


This is one of the most impressive wolf performances on MU imo and it's cuth's

It's a 15er

Cuth, Master Radishes and Macdougall are the wolves, SUPER stacked playerlist.

D1 MR gets eliminated

D3 Macdougall gets eliminated. Cuth plays solo until D7 (!!!!!!!!) and gets to F3, and just wins. Just read bits of that game, look at cuth's tone. He plays so fuckin well (sorry cuth i know you dont like it when i give you compliments) and i feel like it's that kind of wolf performance that everyone should have in mind always


Macdougall
nutella
Dp101
Lissa
Cuthalion
Logic
Mantichora
Boquise
Ephemeral
Waluigi (atpg)
Frog
Hally
Master Radishes
Chemist1422
Marcher Jovian




Look at this EoD1.

Just the votes

This is the votecount at :57



Cuth makes a vote to make it



and then MR gets a few quick votes and gets yeeted.


Idk just skim through his posts there and tell me you dont think he could be wolf based on tone and eod. comparing him to sf and saying "his tone is similar to his towngame" instead of saying "his tone is different from his wolfgame" is... one carries a lot more weight than the other imo.