Sorceror 17er Game Thread

[Sunbae]

the latter

I would not dare converse with you in anything other than the highest quality Spongebob gifs

LOL get em squiddy

I just know sometimes people don't like to talk to someone about their own alignment so wanted to double check

[hollowkatt]

i think monstr might be in the category of people who approach mafia in a similar enough way to me as wolves in particular that i have a hard time actually figuring him out

i don't know who else is in that category off the top of my head but monstr is that's for sure

Spicy take

I don't think anyone's been villagy

feels like spicy for the sake of spicy

I think this take applies to all their posts tbh

[Zack]

lock town

[Sunbae]

lock town

Yeah, I feel pretty good about a core of like Sleep, Zack, Hollowkatt as a starting point

[Sunbae]

I kinda feel like neb coming in while newcomb/ladd/zack have expressed concerns on me and initiating a discussion on it while calling me town is pretty towny but i'm trying really hard to cut out "reads based solely on how the player handles talking about me" cause it's the type of thing I can get turned around on pretty easily. Feels right still

[nebjiamn]

I kinda feel like neb coming in while newcomb/ladd/zack have expressed concerns on me and initiating a discussion on it while calling me town is pretty towny but i'm trying really hard to cut out "reads based solely on how the player handles talking about me" cause it's the type of thing I can get turned around on pretty easily. Feels right still

i'm just better than them

[ladd]

(hopefully this isnt strike 2)

[Newcomb]

I kinda feel like neb coming in while newcomb/ladd/zack have expressed concerns on me and initiating a discussion on it while calling me town is pretty towny but i'm trying really hard to cut out "reads based solely on how the player handles talking about me" cause it's the type of thing I can get turned around on pretty easily. Feels right still

have I really expressed concerns on you? like don't get me wrong I've felt them internally but I was trying to not pile on :v

[Cuthillius]

explain?

it's barely meaningful at best

i was repeating to zack what katze said to newc for effect

and any humor existing in the parenthetical is purely due to the range of ways it could be read by whoever's reading it

[Newcomb]

I don't.... *think" zack is buddying me? I can't really come up with a mental map of what I think is the counterexample of how he'd play it as a wolf beyond "different than this" and that bothers me a little but not enough to really do anything about it.

Semi-mostly unrelated I think right now ladd has about the closest game perspective to mine.

[nebjiamn]

(hopefully this isnt strike 2)

understandable. he's funnier and cuter and his gif-game is strong

[Cape90]

okay, so, a lot of cape's early posting can be summed up as "doesn't get jokes". now, not getting jokes isn't inherently wolfy. but take note of the verbiage here - "a little odd". not only is it hedgy it stops short of actually making a call on my alignment - "odd" does not equate to "wolfy", townies can be "odd". it's a little thing but often wolves tend to avoid directly actually calling anything wolfy.

additionally he says katze's response seems "justified" - what parts of that post seem justified? it's...an obvious joke about voting "sleep" to take a nap. it's messing around, there's

again, not getting a joke is not a crime in and of itself but it doesn't seem to me like he's actually reading what is being said in a critical way

I know I put this section amongst some actual reads that were serious. But this was mostly me messing around, it should have been obvious by the katze part I wrote.

now, running back in time 5 seconds, we have another instance of cape not getting a fairly obvious joke

the problem here is he's only responding to this post with a cookie-cutter, broad brushstroke argument - "busywork". what parts of that post seem like busywork? we don't know, because cape doesn't respond to any of the content within. to me this looks like he's making reads based on form rather than content, which is again wolfy because it's a sign that he's not actually reading the game critically - if he had actually tried to engage with any of the "points" zack made in that post i'd be willing to give credit for being tryhardy even if he missed an obvious joke. but as it is, it doesn't look like he actually tried to meaningfully evaluate the stuff zack was saying, because I think if anyone puts more than two seconds of thought into reading his words they'd say "oh, this is an obvious joke".

as it is, it looks like he saw that it looked like a post by post analysis list and decided to call it busy work and shade it. he didn't stop to actually read it.

Nice assumption nerd.

I thought that some of the takes in the post could have been real like

14: this question isn't solving the game

And trust me, I do feel dumb for not fully getting that it was just a joke, it was just lame enough to where I took the bait for granted. Sue me.

"i don't see it" in response to an early wolfread push. not inherently bad in and of itself, but it is the kind of thing wolves frequently say in the earlygame - being dismissive of early wolfreads is an easy way to fake content, because all they have to do is disagree with people. wolves rarely are the type to lead a charge on someone so they'll often hold back when someone makes a stretchy case in the early game

i can sense some people probably rolling their eyes at this, and that's fine, it's a very minor point but i still wanted to discuss it because it pinged me. like i said, by itself this isn't a strong point at all because it can easily be said by a villager, but within the body of work i find it problematic.

Good job on your nothing read on me, I am proud of you, you graduated to my level of reads!

says nothing, does nothing.

Okay so I was going page by page, and I was kinda struggling to do that on page 2 of the game :p. The evidence for that was the post I made saying

I have no idea what to think about EnderWiggin's whole take on the nebjiamn content thing.

which only establishes that I just found the post weird.

what, exactly, is there to like about this post? it's kind of generically agreeable in that it makes a point about how to play the game, and I agree that some forward momentum is preferable to a tepid, stagnant game, but it doesn't actually give me feelings on newcomb's alignment one way or the other. and again the verbiage of "in a sort of random way" is another statement that doesn't really do anything except to soften the read that follows.

I'm down to meme as much as the next guy but 48 hour phases are pretty quick especially when a game's this frontloaded.

Like don't get me wrong I'm down for a casual non wallposty game but... there's a thin line between that and tepid, I guess is my feeling.

1. Top line felt towny in the portion of the post that I just quoted in terms of Newcomb felt towny

2. The ending words of the post I bolded submitted my feelings on the post feeling like it came from town versus otherwise.

---

first point, he "doesn't like" a read. but does it mean anything for ladds alignment? he doesn't bother to say. it's easy to agree or disagree with things other people say, but what is harder is to generate your own analysis and thoughts. and what we have is that he is "sort of villagery" (again, more soft language) for "actually the same reasons", which...doesn't make sense at all? it doesn't actually meaningfully address the points ladd is making. why is he villagery for mostly responding to things or "posting just to post"? it's a totally half-baked response, there's nothing in cape's posts that gives a real indicator of why he thinks ender is villagery.

It really just is as simple as I was thinking that Ender is town for the same reasons that ladd has been suspecting Ender. You act like my read HAS to be deeper then that when it really is not. There is nothing to really indicate since there wasn't a specific moment or post that struck me as towny from Ender, just general play.

Gotta love semantics reads, those always work out. For the record, I type out how I normally talk and that is with what you would consider "hedgy" language. Sue me, I am literally socially awkward.

This is a very pedantic sort of dismissal to ender that doesn't really engage with the substance of the argument being made at all. "you said he was putting it forward as if it was a deep read, but it was on one post so it can't be deep at all". which, okay, but he very clearly meant it as a serious read, and cape selectively cuts off the latter parts of his post where ender gets into the more elaborate parts of his thinking about how wolves sometimes try to get too serious too early and hard switch. it doesnt look like hes meaningfully evaluating or considering enders words, just blandly dismissing a point he feels is eay to shoot down. this looks like cape isnt actually trying to read neb or ender. it kind of feeds back into what i said earlier about wolves tending to spend a lot of time in the early game shooting down reads rather than trying to solve.

(fwiw, i did like nebjiamn trying to make a serious accusation early there, and i think the antsiness to move the game forward and disappointment at being engaged with is towny. i didnt really want to respond to the read at the time though because th read itself felt stretchy and it would be more useful to see how the person being accused responds to it rather than saying anything myself. i think dobbys response to it is fine for now. i dont agree with enders take that it could be a wolf play although i understand the reasoning)

Funny how in the bolded, Benneh literally denied this read as deep. I know the read had purpose and was the closest thing to a real read in that portion of the game, but that's different.

Oh no I left out parts of a post that I found irrelevant? Oh no! I find the rest of the post to be both NAI and looking a little too deep into the motives of Benneh there.

this is maybe the most egregious instance of cape's hedgy verbiage - why qualify the read in this way? how can something almost look really wolfy?i can find it understandable only finding something slightly suspicious in the early game, but this just comes across like he's afraid to throw a punch. reads very unnatural. either it's really wolfy or it isn't.

that is to say nothing of how again this is an egregious misreading of katze's post - if he was actually paying attention he'd have noticed the second line talks about a "pasta" and i assume cape is at least familiar enough with the concept of "copypasta" to know what that means.

and again not getting smeone's inside joke is not a crime, but what this again demonstrates is that cape is not really reading posts critically, but selectively, picking and choosing things to comment on. he picks out the first and last lines to attack while missing the part that tells him the bottom part of the post is fake and therefore irrelevant.

1. I used the word "almost" very deliberately as it felt like it could have maybe come from an aggressive townie, however, it really did not feel like katze at all, like if anyone else said this, I might have not batted too much of an eye, but I am not sure.

2. It makes sense it was a copypasta. And I was dumb and missed the part where katze even said "pasta", that flew right over my eyes, probably because it was fking midnight.

---

again with the verbiage heavy on qualifiers, cape can hardly make a read without distancing himself from it

I have no idea what you are saying here with qualifiers.

[ladd]

I'll definitely grant you "posting just to post" although I can't say Ender's posts really gave me that vibe strongly, but what in your experience makes the post timing thing - answering the last post then going back to answer something from before- a wolf thing?

Doing a mental parse of my own games it kind of feels more like something I'd tend to do more as a villager - like, if you're actually in the moment and invested in a conversation you get a bit disorganized and out of order. Not that that's what happened here since it's not like there was a riveting conversation going on. More interested in the theory I guess, tangential.

i applied it more to turbos/mashes than normal games (and I also noticed it first in my own wolf games iirc)

sometimes as a wolf you see a post where you feel like you either 1) have to answer to or 2) have a smart answer to but to look like you didnt just pop in to answer that post you then also latch onto a random other post that happened before



i do think ender reaction to zack/mine (but especially zack really) push is the wolfiest thing in an overall p villagery thread


newcomb seems an obvious villager imo

[Cape90]

with all of that said

welcome to towncore sleep

[Cape90]

I've skimmed ahead enough to know that people jump on this so I probably don't need to do anything here I'd imagine? I'll just hold all cape thoughts until I fully catch up.

What's cape's overall experience level?

Almost a year

But I am literally a mad scientist when it comes to mafia. People think I am good because I made it to semis, oh how foolish

[ladd]

Semi-mostly unrelated I think right now ladd has about the closest game perspective to mine.

[Cape90]

yeah no problem.

My OG vote on Katze was 100% a shitpost vote.
People started piling onto katze tho and that felt weird to me. Like if they're a wolf then it's great, but if they're town a runaway wagon on them to start the game seems like a good opportunity for a wolf or two to get on and try to hang there for a chop today.
That's the basis for the v read there, basically that too many people were like "hmm yes katze is a good vote at this stage of the game".
I subscribe to the theory that early game wagons have lasting impact on the rest of the game through a kind of communal thread memory and that an early game wagon like that on a villager is one way to put a potential strong village player into the POE to make them either post out of it or allow for "bad votes" later in the game by calling back to it.

People say they like this post?

[nebjiamn]

People say they like this post?

i like the post before it a bit more

this one is OK

[Cape90]

ehh, how often do you see a wolf who notices their teammate made a wolfy post, notices no one calling it out, and then makes it a point to draw attention to the post but also not push on it? it's really written in a way where he's positioned to get credit off a motnmorency w flip. not saying its impossible, but i dont really see it

but im also just not going to get deep into worldbuiding on day 1, too many conditionals and the whole thing falls apart if ur wrong on one person

If I was trying to get cred off a Motnmorency w flip, why would I literally contradict myself in saying the mech talk wasn't wolfy but I expected other people to point it out and call it wolfy?

You clearly misunderstood what I wrote there.

[Sleep]

it's barely meaningful at best

i was repeating to zack what katze said to newc for effect

and any humor existing in the parenthetical is purely due to the range of ways it could be read by whoever's reading it

oh i thought you'd have something spicy

[Cape90]

i think monstr might be in the category of people who approach mafia in a similar enough way to me as wolves in particular that i have a hard time actually figuring him out

i don't know who else is in that category off the top of my head but monstr is that's for sure

that explains the bubbling scumread I had on both of you. Thanks for telling me you two aren't w/w

[Sleep]

If I was trying to get cred off a Motnmorency w flip, why would I literally contradict myself in saying the mech talk wasn't wolfy but I expected other people to point it out and call it wolfy?

You clearly misunderstood what I wrote there.

that is the exact point of what i am saying there

[Csargo]

Wanted to say on the subject of that post #90, it's probably NAI for me and I would make the post as either alignment

carry on

It's probably true, but it's locked in my brain as a wolfy behavior for various reasons. I'm just grasping at straws at this point, because D1's are hard.

[Zack]

i applied it more to turbos/mashes than normal games (and I also noticed it first in my own wolf games iirc)

sometimes as a wolf you see a post where you feel like you either 1) have to answer to or 2) have a smart answer to but to look like you didnt just pop in to answer that post you then also latch onto a random other post that happened before



i do think ender reaction to zack/mine (but especially zack really) push is the wolfiest thing in an overall p villagery thread


newcomb seems an obvious villager imo

what's your read on cape?

[Cuthillius]

that explains the bubbling scumread I had on both of you. Thanks for telling me you two aren't w/w

i do agree that monstr/i have a lot of partner equity e t c

[Cape90]

i like the post before it a bit more

this one is OK

I really don't like that HK post, EXCEPT for the No Chop thing, like that felt towny to me, but the whole forced content thing, I think the read is a little weak sauce. I kinda been treating this game like a light game so that I don't spam the thread with posts, especially since there is only 30 posts per page, I feel like that just encourages more words/things said per post versus spam posting.

[Sunbae]

vote: katze

[ladd]

to pile onto sunbae:

- I too didnt buy the first post (in fact i was the first to call it out!)

- i think his second string of posting was pretty flat, the focus on cape was wolfy imo

- i get being openminded/not having strong opinions but i think he is taking it too far where it circles back to being done just to look villagery (and i am 99% sure its a strategy i have seen him use as a wolf in either s3 sf or the wildcard), esp when I feel like there is plenty to talk about (in his defense he seems to be picking it up now)

- he gave me a strike

what's your read on cape?

his explanation for the joke thing makes perfect sens eimo - he clearly thought it was a serious post at first and then when he realized it was a joke he backed off

for the rest of his posting, i am inclined to agree with you. he seems more like a villager who is posting whatever is on his mind and getting in trouble for it than a wolf

expect i dont really villa read him as strongly as you (seem to)

[Sunbae]

Unvote: Katze

eh that didnt feel right

[Sunbae]

You are all making it very difficult to refrain from talking about myself