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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
OK, I ran a few tests.
1 match with Eastern Axemen vs AI Spartans: 174 killed - 36 killed
2 matches with Spartans vs AI; default formation used: 20 - 179
37 - 162
2 matches with Spartans vs AI; 8-shields-deep: 33 - 153
13 - 161
1 match with Spartans vs AI; maximum line length: 19 v 125
The AI of course did retarded things like try to throw missiles while I mauled their lines, and run away after having done so only to charge me and repeat the whole process every 30 seconds.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Nobody would send those guys solo against Spartans. There is no point. You send them into the flank. Thus, your information is INVALID!!!! :P
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Eh, no, because I was trying to find out how Spartans would fare against Eastern axemen in a head-on collision. So it is valid. In reality, the Spartans would lose a couple men, while the axemen would lose 50 men, at which point they would rout.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cullhwch
Did these guys get re-skinned in 1.2?? In 1.1 they have a completely different skin. And I am still playing 1.1.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
What do they look like in 1.1? Frankly, I hate their current skin. Maybe its just my slight OCD talking, but it just looks so dirty. One of the reasons why I dislike using Illyrians.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
You dislike using Illyrians because you don't like the way Numidians look like :inquisitive:
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AW: Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mediolanicus
You dislike using Illyrians because you don't like the way Numidians look like :inquisitive:
He dislikes the "dirty" look of them, if i got him right.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ian_pirate.gifhttps://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...javelinmen.gif
Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
I could classify all Hoplite units as Suprisingly bad, they are really underpowered in EB. They were killing machines from the front, as prooven by Thermopylae where even the non Spartans were slaugtering the Persians from the front. In EB Hoplites drop to easilly from the front, guard mode only makes it worse.
Hoplites rely on destroying the enemy from the front, not to rely on cavalry or light infantry to do it from the back. Which is really one of the bad points of EB, Hoplites should be given some sort of formation to better portray their real Phalanx.
Right now they just fight as individual soldiers. :shame:
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
When fighting Epeiros as the Romani in my campaign I had serious trouble with their Hoplitai.
Epeiros moved to Greece in my campaign and were throwing stacks full of Hoplitai and Thorakitai. I found the Thorakitai much easier to kill than the Hoplitai.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Stat wise the Thorakitai are better. The point is that the Hoplites aren't really good enough portrayed in EB :shame:.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Try adding the short_pike attribute or reducing the space between the individual men in the unit in the EDU.
That tends to help.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
I know, yet I'm in that Greek Vs Roman tourney so if they don't have the same changes it wont work.
And I also don't really know why the EB team haven't chosen themselves to go for a more realistic formation.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
You're not using them right, I can vouch for them as being awesome. Its just that they are a pain to setup right and can't attack. The the only way they excel is sitting in defense mode and not dying. Anything else and they end up underwhelming.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
It's not me not using them right, Hoplites weren't a static wall. It was about charging the enemy with the shield wall and then push their line apart with the first two ranks stabbing down. It was a agressive force and extremely lethal from the front. Which isn't really that good portrayed in EB.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHZt...e=channel_page
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2XL...eature=channel
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
My bad, I misunderstood what you said. In that case yes, they do need to be tweaked. ROP had pretty good hoplites. That game did devolve into a ridiculous pushing match.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
People that complain that hoplites die fast with guard mode, learn to use it right. Hoplites need guard mode on when the enemy charges and you keep it on only while the enemy is on the front face of the hoplites. Once they start surrounding the hoplites (or when hoplites are fighting more than 1 unit) then you run into problems if you leave guard mode on. Guard mode means they'll fight in a line and try to keep the line solid at all costs. This means they don't break formation which works against them once the enemy surrounds them, once the enemy kind of gets to their flanks, disable guard mode, they'll survive much longer since they're not a static line anymore.
Just realized this while fighting the Seleukids around Pontos, Levy Hoplites are amazingly good (for their level and price) if you have a unit like the Gaesatae around, anything with a morale boosting and killing effect. I found that with that unit behind the Levies, they held as long as normal hoplites without morale boosting units.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Anti, short_pike from ROP makes it to extreme, changing density would be better.
Heldelance, guard mode makes you units fight worse, even at a solid front(Hoplites are a attacking force, letting them stand still isn't a Hoplite Phalanx, and that is the only use of Guard Mode). I tested all possible ways for Hoplites and I must say that changing the density is the most accurate solution.
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AW: Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phalanx300
I must say that changing the density is the most accurate solution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phalanx300
Also, in EB I really get the feeling that Hoplites are underpowered, maybe doing something with them for this tourney would be better. Like the 0.2 density?
But not to 0.2, that is overkill. I onced use diffrent densities for Hoplites too and all 0.2 units were nearly unstobable on the field. For example, an unit of Thorakitai Hoplitai with 0.2 slaughtered an unit of Pedites Extraordinarii 1 vs. 1 with no problems. Even classical Hoplitai with 0.23 where able to beat them 1 vs. 1.
Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Then again, you shouldn't try to beat them from the front, you can more easilly outflank them and on large battles they still tend to rout when their line is outflanked. Yet from the front it's impossible with loose order infantry to beat Hoplites, except with Phalangites or other Hoplites. Which is historical looking at Hoplite warfare.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Technically the first 3 ranks stab at the enemy.
And sometimes hoplites did in fact just form a static line instead of charging their enemies.
Apparently, if a phalanx poised its shields on the ground and huddled against them while raising their spears at an angle(sort of like in this picture), then they were immovable (:wall::skull:).
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
I can personally vouch for the Hoplitai. In guard mode they're nigh indestructable. They even held out better than my Pezhetairoi units, as Anti can tell you.
But I have to agree, when it comes to attacking they fail miserably. I'd go for the 0.2 density which sounds fairly accurate to me. But I fear it may be overpowering them too. They're good, but it's not an army of Achilles we're taling about here.
Also, not surprisingly, but damn good:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...heraspidai.gif
My new favourite unit.
And... the unit of my Strategos nightmares:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...taphraktoi.gif
These buggers'll cut through infantry like a knife through warm butter... but if a cavarly unit so much as shakes a spear at them they start running like armoured bunnies.
Hate 'em to death...
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Does anyone know why they are really crap in horse to horse?
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AW: Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phalanx300
Yet from the front it's impossible with loose order infantry to beat Hoplites, except with Phalangites or other Hoplites.
But heavy assault infantery should be able to do so. So even Thorakitai Hoplitai should take heavy causalties if attacked by Pedites Extraordinarii (IMO and I say that as a Romani-hater). And with 0.2 it doesn't matter if you flanke them or not, they will just hold their position and kill everything. I think 0.3 - 0.25 - 0.23 (levy/semi* - classicals - elites) is ok, but you have to change some stats or the unitcosts/upkeep to rebalance the game. *With "semi" I mean for example Massaliotai Hoplitai.
Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
The defend mode on hoplites seem to work for both defense and offense from what I've seen when I paid closer attention to it. If you turn guard on and charge, they try to maintain the line and more of the units actually hit the enemy which I would guess would lead to lower casualties on your side and greater on theirs. When defending, guard mode turns them into a solid wall making it hard for the enemy to break your formation. Keep in mind though that when they do break your formation, and the will, guard mode needs to be turned off so that the hoplites are looser. You can tell if they break your formation if the hoplites start changing the facing of their line which usually makes them vulnerable to flank attacks.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Thracian calvary (The mercenaries) are pretty damn good. Against calvary, against infantry, and for chasing down skirmishers. Its surprising that the description is pretty much spot on.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Hoplites on guard mode on the offensive are very bad, their entire unit get decimated with only a few enemy dead.
Quote:
I can personally vouch for the Hoplitai. In guard mode they're nigh indestructable. They even held out better than my Pezhetairoi units, as Anti can tell you.
But I have to agree, when it comes to attacking they fail miserably. I'd go for the 0.2 density which sounds fairly accurate to me. But I fear it may be overpowering them too. They're good, but it's not an army of Achilles we're taling about here.
Well yeah, but holding out wasn't their puspose, it was destroying the enemy, it wasn't about pinning as it is with the Phalangites.
I just think that they should definately perform better, right now it could just make people think why the Greeks even bothered to fight as Hoplites..:whip:
Quote:
But heavy assault infantery should be able to do so. So even Thorakitai Hoplitai should take heavy causalties if attacked by Pedites Extraordinarii (IMO and I say that as a Romani-hater). And with 0.2 it doesn't matter if you flanke them or not, they will just hold their position and kill everything. I think 0.3 - 0.25 - 0.23 (levy/semi* - classicals - elites) is ok, but you have to change some stats or the unitcosts/upkeep to rebalance the game. *With "semi" I mean for example Massaliotai Hoplitai.
Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam
I definately don't think that they should be able to be beaten by the front, I can't think of a case where such a thing ever happened. Except at Marathon but there they made a smaller frontline on purpose. If you look at the Thorakitai Hoplitai unit card you'll see that it were those units who broke the Roman right flank in the battle of Corinth.
And about those semi units, I'm wondering why you put them in the levy group? All Hoplites had swords, these semi ones just were known to put great use to them(which is why they have swords), putting them to classical at the least would be better. For Hypaspitai elite would fit more.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
I wonder if missiles would disrupt thier formation more if we did that.
Also, I believe that a lot of the 'mixed' culture hoplites fought a little looser or atleast that's what the descriptions say.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
The only one I know of are the Syracusians, which also have longer spears(I gues only they should have the way to long spears that many Hoplites have). As far as I know they were the only ones(in EB).
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AW: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
About the "semi", just another prove, that English is not my first language.:oops: I meant 'mixed' culture Hoplites, how antisocialmunky already said. And IMO they should fight in a looser formation. That would be Syrakosioi, Massaliotai, Triarii (even if they are elites), and perhaps the Indogreek Hoplites (even if they are elites too). About the Hypaspistai, it's true that their unitdescription says, that they fought as Hoplitai, but in game, you use them more as a assault infantery and not as a lineholding phalanx. I think that at the moment a Hoplitai decides to switch to sword, he stops fighting in the phalanx, ergo he shoudn't get the low density. (I have no sources to prove it, it's just my opinion.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phalanx300
I just think that they should definately perform better, right now it could just make people think why the Greeks even bothered to fight as Hoplites..:whip:
I agree with you, they should. But giving them a too low density, especially if they have swords, makes them too powerful.
Perhaps we should make a new thread about that topic?
Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam
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Re: AW: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
About the "semi", just another prove, that English is not my first language.:oops: I meant 'mixed' culture Hoplites, how antisocialmunky already said. And IMO they should fight in a looser formation. That would be Syrakosioi, Massaliotai, Triarii (even if they are elites), and perhaps the Indogreek Hoplites (even if they are elites too). About the Hypaspistai, it's true that their unitdescription says, that they fought as Hoplitai, but in game, you use them more as a assault infantery and not as a lineholding phalanx. I think that at the moment a Hoplitai decides to switch to sword, he stops fighting in the phalanx, ergo he shoudn't get the low density. (I have no sources to prove it, it's just my opinion.)
I only support that for the Syrakosioi, there is not really evidence as far as I'm aware that the others fought in a looser formation then the usual Hoplite Phalanx. And for Hypaspistai, I would say to give them 0.23 as well, I care more for the Historical accuracy then how they are usually used ingame. The Macedonian assault infantry should by now be the Peltastai Makedonikoi, there is a reason that they came to be:2thumbsup:.
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Re: AW: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zett
(I have no sources to prove it, it's just my opinion.)
Do you notice where the flaw in your argumentation is?! ~;)
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Could you please make your conversation about the density of hoplite units somewhere else?
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...eutagardaz.gif
The Hellenes of the sweboz. They are actually very strong as line infantery and I once had 2 of them holding back an entire army trying to fall in my back while I was rushing to an Aedui town center.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
The density even regard Sweboz units, but yeah thats in another tread.
The Sweboz is one of my favorite factions, those Pikemen are great. Their spearmen and swordsmen were also able to form a shieldwall. :2thumbsup:
The only bad thing about the Sweboz units is their weakness for missles, they will drop like flies when faced with missles. (or at least my cherusci units did when faced with cretans in multiplayer)
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Re: AW: Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zett
Those Illirian are surprisingly good, specially bacuase of being "levies". Almost like celtic axemen but just level 1 regional MIC, good defence/armor (better than gaeros), available almost to every faction and decent recruitment area.:2thumbsup:
No misile is their only downside.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Well yeah, the sweboz are somehow the developing nation of EB and therefore they have very few armored troops.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ziegenpeter
Could you please make your conversation about the density of hoplite units somewhere else?
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...eutagardaz.gif
The Hellenes of the sweboz. They are actually very strong as line infantery and I once had 2 of them holding back an entire army trying to fall in my back while I was rushing to an Aedui town center.
This guys are really tough... I had a huge battle against the Sweboz as the aedui, i had 2300 men, while they had 3500 with 3 units of these... The battle was long but thanks to my uber faction leader who led the army i won quite convincigly, since none of my units routed... I thought i already won the battle when i routed most of the enemy army, and let my units chase them... Suddenly i saw that 2 units of these pikemen performed a last stadn, an killed many, many of my gaelaiche...
By the time i got reinforcments that were around the map, these pikemen killed almost my entire right flank, and it took a charge of my general plus fresh solduros to make them rout...
I will never underestimate them again:yes:
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
That is odd, I always slaughtered those pikemen with ease. They are slightly tougher, but their armour is nothing special. Average-Good, according to my classifications. Too bad they do not have the pike phalanx formation, as for now they are weaker than they were, or at least not as realistic IMHO, as their pikes do nothing to hold back anyone. My units just passed through them.
The real Sweboz miracle are these chaps:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...oz_slaganz.gif
Before them, I never thought the AP attribute was so strong, save for the slingers. These warriors caused the most casualties among my elite stacks that blitzed Germania in four turns, despite them having the strongest AI army in my campaign. They were VERY surprisingly good, much more effective than any axemen I have encountered, despite having much lower armour. Perhaps higher lethality, although in real battles, clubs were not as effective as a small axe or a gladius. The club requires too much room and strength to swing, while a shortsword and a large shield would be the most effective IMHO.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
A comment on the Maure infantry (see p.3 for their previous mention in this thread). I noticed them tearing a big chunk out of my Polybian Principes one on one, which surprised the heck out of me since in a previous battle a Principe maniple scored a 724 to 30 kill ratio against basically every other North African unit, and I'd figured the Maure would fare no better. They lost, of course, but taking 50-odd Romans with them was unexpected.
Turns out the Maure have Celtic longswords (0.225 lethality). The unit description makes no mention of such a thing, so I wonder if that's correct, or if they're supposed to have normal 0.1-0.13 lethality swords and someone forgot to edit the EDU? If the 0.225 lethality is correct, then Maure are a hidden gem of a flanker unit!
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
https://img15.imageshack.us/img15/57...ruttianinf.gif
Pezoi Brettioi (Bruttian Infantry)
I tried out these in my Romani campaign as a Auxilla unit to supplement my samnites, they look equipped simular to my Hasati and seem would go well with the legions... but every time I gave them a chance they gave less then steller results, its not because they routed easily, on the contrary, they last to about 6 men before routing, but the thing is, they get to that number REALLY EASY, I'm pretty sure a unit of lugoae could best them they suck that much.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
re: Pezoi Brettioi
Are you playing on VH battle setting...?
In my KH campaigns they serve as really good flankers. Don't use them for holding the main line - their formation is too loose for that. Run them around and behind the enemy. They have great stamina and when they attack the enemy from behind, they can be real killing machines. With Lugoae it is simple: one on one and from the front against a unit of L. in def-mode, yes, they might lose. But from behind or in close, chaotic melee with no defend mode, they will slaughter them. Think of them as more melee-oriented Peltastai.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
I only play Medium battle difficulty, VH is for metagamers. :p
Honestly though I used them like expendable manipules, they may be good for flanking but the battles they were used in required soldiers who could take punishment and they just weren't up to the job.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
https://img21.imageshack.us/img21/3452/deutoroi.jpg
Phalangitai Deuteroi. That's the unit I love in my Mac campaign. They can do wonders if used properly, can hold the line against nearly everything but the heaviest cavalry tanks, and even when the formation is disrupted they still can hold their own against most low level units. Of course they die like flies when flanked by infantry killers or elites, but they aren't meant to be used that way. Even when they get into some not so nice position, they usually last long enough to bring reinforcements.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Yeah they are pretty good. Those guys with a couple units of hoplitai haploi to protect their flanks are a cheap but effective anvil for the early Mak army. Add a couple of units of cavalry ( two family members work great) to provide the Hammer and you shouldn't need to upgrade your infantry for a long time. For example in my Mak campaign, VH/M, I have conquered Illyria, Epirus, Koinon Hellenon, and am now waging a war against Pontos. I have already destroyed three stacks of Pontic armies with my veteran Phalangitai Deuteroi based army. These troops, when used properly, are easily as good as Pezhetaroi. I can't see myself replacing them any time soon.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Pantodapoi Phalangites are even better than those guys.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...halangitai.gif
AP axes let them survive REAL long in combat, even when flanked.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
heldelance
I'm playing in normal difficulty right now because I realized that for some reason, my 6 star general with 2 Uirodiosos acting as morale boosters/breakers and the elite Getai Spearmen as my linesmen were breaking and running even when fighting inferior units like the hoplite mercs. Kinda cheesed me off because by all accounts I should have had far more morale.
Anyway, to the units.
As Getai, I find that the elite spearmen are excellent lineholders even against pikemen, they just don't break easy. Bit on the expensive side but I feel they're more than worth their gold, excellent on wall defense too but I've noticed they're not as spectacular on wall offense.
Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai (Dacian Heavy Phalanx)
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...orakitai_s.gif
Another awesome unit is one that I find indispensable are the Boii Cingetos. Decent linesmen but their speed makes them much better as flankers. They're kinda like the kluddolons (another useful unit, easier to acquire than Boii when campaigning east) but better able to withstand missile fire. I usually use them in conjunction with Drapanai, they guard against enemy counter attacks while the drapanai rip into the enemy from behind.
Boii Cingetos (Boii Swordsmen)
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...i_infantry.gif
im sorry call me a nub or w/e but were in the hell is the Boii homeland were this unit is recruitable????
i've employed these troops as mercs but id like to know were i can recruit them as regulars into my army?
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
A Very Super Market
sorry for the double post but i agree with u those Phalangites are my army in my AAR
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husker98
im sorry call me a nub or w/e but were in the hell is the Boii homeland were this unit is recruitable????
i've employed these troops as mercs but id like to know were i can recruit them as regulars into my army?
Check the recruitment viewer - Ak Ink, Singidunum, Vindobona, two further territories in the area north of Illyria.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nachtmeister
Check the recruitment viewer - Ak Ink, Singidunum, Vindobona, two further territories in the area north of Illyria.
thanks im away from my gaming computer so i couldnt check......im at work lol
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
The Dacian archers are not half bad, either!
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
That's funny because in a game today, my Alae Imperitoria walked up to 2 of them and didn't take any casualties.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ed_libypho.gif
Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim
In my Qarthadast campaign, these guys have proven to be extremely useful for flanking and crushing the Ptolemaic phalanxes from behind. The downside is that they can't hold a line and take many casualties, although they are described as phalanx spearmen.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
They take casualties???
In my romani campain one silver chevron units of them killed 2principes and one pedites extraordinari with 1 to 2 chevrons... :help:
But i guess I had bad luck, when I played Karthago they were useless. :juggle2:
Has anyone fought dacian elite skirmisher in forests by now? They rock :whip:
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Husker: They're recruitable from most of the towns immediately west of Sarmigethuza. Need level 3 I think.
Dacian archers, the first ones you get are okay in the beginning, low range and damage make them fall out of use pretty quickly though. The second ones, elite archers are much better but their cost is monstrous. Just use the Scythian foot archers instead. The only difference between the two is that the elites are able to hold their own in C.C. but using ANY archers in c.c is a bad idea. If you can get them, Bosphoran archers are cheaper and are just as good.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...taphraktoi.gif
These guys are awesome, in this multiplayer game I had I just had 20 of em. I was losing everywhere but there charges saved the day and they just wouldn't die(only 5 of them or something died) or rout. I really underestimated them! :2thumbsup:
Also, their unit description says that they never lost in any battle in which they were in, I gues that still holds.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...eek_nobles.gif
These guys also won me that battle, they took extremely heavy losses yet they fought on and protected my few phalangites from the back.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...i_hoplitai.gif
I expected them to be very bad but they holded my flank very well against Roman legionairries.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
I wouldn't call Cataphracts "surprisingly" good, just good. A running slab of metal with a spear sticking out of it is always going to be awesome.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Baktrian Late Bodyguard is the best Kataphract in the game.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Indeed, now if they just had as many man as the Late Parthian catas...
Catas aren't surprisingly good. They are unsurprisingly invincible (if utilized and supported propperly).
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Get on Hamachi Tolg, lets paly a game:).
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WonkoTheSane
In my Qarthadast campaign, these guys have proven to be extremely useful for flanking and crushing the Ptolemaic phalanxes from behind. The downside is that they can't hold a line and take many casualties, although they are described as phalanx spearmen.
I've found them to be just as capable in a line as Carthage's other spears/infantry; even in smaller units, their armour is a great help. Then again, these are the troopers you want on the flanks, as you say, to surprise those blasted phalangites while they attempt to chew on your heavies or Africans.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Onehandstan
I wouldn't call Cataphracts "surprisingly" good, just good. A running slab of metal with a spear sticking out of it is always going to be awesome.
Just one unit of these cataphracts(just 20 men) basicly won me the battle, I never really thought for them to be that good. The best cavalry!:2thumbsup:
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ziegenpeter
Could you please make your conversation about the density of hoplite units somewhere else?
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...eutagardaz.gif
The Hellenes of the sweboz. They are actually very strong as line infantery and I once had 2 of them holding back an entire army trying to fall in my back while I was rushing to an Aedui town center.
Has anyone ever gotten a bug with these units where if you group then line them up they don't "line" up? They form in random directions and don't connect.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
That's an RTW bug (often happening when you fight a "seige" battle on a city with no walls). I had it happen everywhere and with every unit though.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Elite units don't count for surprisingly good. It isn'y surprising to see cataphracts break the enemy through charges. Because they are cataphracts. Their purpose is to do just that. If they didn't do it well, then they would be surprisingly bad.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
A Very Super Market
Elite units don't count for surprisingly good. It isn'y surprising to see cataphracts break the enemy through charges. Because they are cataphracts. Their purpose is to do just that. If they didn't do it well, then they would be surprisingly bad.
Seeing that there are only 20 of em does make that just that for me.:idea2:
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
A Very Super Market
On what size?
That of 20 :clown:.
It was on large by the way.:2thumbsup:
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
That's not too bad. On huge, that is 40 cataphracts, the same as a non-heir/leader family member, and made to win.
I just destoried your argument! :P
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ilan_agema.gif
Taxilan Agema; I tried them in my current Baktria game and if they aren't bad, then I just don't now how to use them. I was expection some hidden gem of heavy cavalry considering their price, but to me they're just medium armoured skirmishers.
I tried using them like heavy cavalry, but they have no charge to speak of and in actual melee they die so fast it is humiliating realising how much money I just threw away (Note; I play medium difficulty battles).
The only way I found I could use them effectively is by using them as skirmishers, throwing javalins and harassing enemy skirmishers. But there are many more cheaper options available for that.
It kinda sad; I really like the way they look.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cullhwch
Yeah, playing on Very Hard is much more difficult when you're playing a melee-based faction. The +7 bonus given to enemy defense is only applied to defensive skill, so your arrows still do full damage on Very Hard mode. Without horse archers you'll just get stomped.
Supposedly, on VH, the +7 bonus is applied only to AI ATTACK, not defense.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Raygereio
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ilan_agema.gif
Taxilan Agema; I tried them in my current Baktria game and if they aren't bad, then I just don't now how to use them. I was expection some hidden gem of heavy cavalry considering their price, but to me they're just medium armoured skirmishers.
I tried using them like heavy cavalry, but they have no charge to speak of and in actual melee they die so fast it is humiliating realising how much money I just threw away (Note; I play medium difficulty battles).
The only way I found I could use them effectively is by using them as skirmishers, throwing javalins and harassing enemy skirmishers. But there are many more
cheaper options available for that.
It kinda sad; I really like the way they look.
100% Agree.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
machinor
100% Agree.
They are good skirmisers, but to expensive and still die like flies...:juggle2:
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
The non-Kataphract level heavy cavalry are underpowered. Their job is to hit into anything (not spearmen) in the front to disrupt their formation which makes it easy for infantry to kill the enemy. Problem is that unless they're Katas, they lose almost 10 men per charge which puts them at a severe disadvantage.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
No, horribly wrong.
Cataphracts are supposed to do that. The only way you could expect to assault the front of a formation is if you were covered in armour. Non cataphract heavy cavalry is to act as the hammer smashing in the back of a formation.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
I thought mediums are supposed to be the hammers?
But I do suppose what you say makes sense, just that I thought they had adequate armor for head ons.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
What do mediums do, exactly? In-game they are grouped with heavy cavalry, as are cataphracts.
Skirmishers- Annoy
Lights- Chase away
Mediums- Half ^^ half vv?
Heavies- Hammer
Cataphracts- INVINCIBLE CHARGE ANYWHERE
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Medium Cavallery are divided in different classes.
Some of them are really tough in close combat, like the Tarantines, the campanians and the makedonian companian skirmishers. They are also skirmishers and better armoured, but slower than light cavallery and have quite weak charges.
Than there are the really fast charge cavallery who are perfect for flanking, routing skirmishers and catching horse archers. The podromoi are probably one of them, but you might argue, that they are light ones. Others would be the lonchoporoi Hippeis. The modern greece cavallery or the liby phoenician ones.
And then there are the quite useless old medium style cavallery like the Hippeis, the roman citizen cavallery and the eastern and median ones. They have weak charges, no javalines and are slow, but they are decent anti cavallery and anti skirmisher fighters and still able to flank the enemy, but rather to fight of or just tie the enemies flanking forces.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
In my carthage campaign i first used these
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ian_nobles.gif
and was rather dissapointed... i still use them, although very rarely (they didn't make it in my 2 iberian armys:yes:)
then went on to using these as my main medium cavalry force...
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...an_curisii.gif
of course they're not the same type of cavalry, but i was much more satisfied with the latter, i mean they really do a good job at charging, and even fighting in mellee for a whlie
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
I also prefer charging cavalery(Even if unhistorical) over the skirmish/close combat ones. The skirmisher ones just suck against most of the enemies, while a good charge in the bakc is always helpfull :2thumbsup:
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
heldelance
The non-Kataphract level heavy cavalry are underpowered. Their job is to hit into anything (not spearmen) in the front to disrupt their formation which makes it easy for infantry to kill the enemy. Problem is that unless they're Katas, they lose almost 10 men per charge which puts them at a severe disadvantage.
There are quite a few threads about the effectiveness of heavy cavalry in EB. At one point an EB member challenged the OP to find historical examples of cavalry breaking formed heavy infantry with a frontal charge (from EB's time-frame, obviously). Since then only one example turned up: Alexander charging the Kardaskes as the battle of Issos, and even that is debatable (personally, I suspect the Kardaskes were thrown into disarray by Alexander's Agranians appearing on the flank: it looks like the Persian did not anticipate an attack on that flank at all). IIRC the Seleucids Cataphracts routed a Roman legion at the battle of Magnesia as well, but there may be something else going on as well. So, unles you know other examples, it looks like heavy cavalry, even cataphracts, breaking formed heavy infantry from the front is exceptional.
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Re: Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition
Heavy Cavalry will not break disciplined heavy infantry in formation in any period. Not even the Middle Ages that are my greatest period of expertise and the socalled "Age of Cavalry". personally I prefer to call it "Age of absence of trained infantry", as the dominance of the Knight was more a question of governmental structure/social organisation ("Feudalism" though revise your opinion of what that was by reading Susan Reynolds). There were no states with enough organisation to train heavy foot like the Legions of Rome (that basically takes a highly organised and hierarchial state), thus ruling depended on the local magnates (Knights = Heavy Cav) as did military. A Knight can train for war alone or with a few companions and be effective, a footsoldier cannot. Add to that the martial ethos of the ruling class that evolved into chivalry and you have an age where the Knight/Heavy cavalry dominated. Except on the few occasions when they did encounter organised and disciplined foot that did not run away to get hacked down, but stood their ground and repelled the charge. Tours and Hastings are the two first example I can think of. But others pop up throughout the age to culminate in English longbow and Swiss Pike slaughtering the chivalry of France and Burgund.