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It seems to be a common problem among most mainstream pro-Israel supporters (the ones whose only knowledge of the conflict comes from what they are told at Israel advocacy seminars), they tend to just block out opposing viewpoints to maintain their world view.
Which is the most common way for a good majority of people to reduce their cognitive dissonance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Many of my fellow conservatives listen to Limbaugh regularly....few listen to Maddow. Don't know how you actually learn anything that way, but an endless chorus of "of course you are correct" must be soothing to the ego.
And then you have this gem, reported from the Jewish Press. Besides the fact that I think its kind of disgusting, if its true in the first place, that people are happy the threatened more violence to get what they want, the whole damn site is a joke. Just check out the disclaimer before the comment section:
:rolleyes:Quote:
Our comments section is intended for meaningful responses and debates in a civilized manner. We ask that you respect the fact that we are a religious Jewish website and avoid inappropriate language at all cost.
If you promote any foreign religions, gods or messiahs, lies about Israel, anti-Semitism, or advocate violence (except against terrorists), your permission to comment may be revoked.
She does do some nice observations. Though my run-ins with 'radical feminists' tend not to go well for the wrong reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Here are two interesting blog posts:
How to Criticize Israel Without Being Anti-Semitic
How to Support Israel Without Being Racist
From the same blog, also very interesting:
What have we learned?
Humanise Palestine project:
http://humanizepalestine.com/2014/07...-qassem-elwan/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Hilarious.Quote:
You taught us to pick up guns, you taught us to slaughter and persecute and ethnically cleanse, you taught us that the only way to protect ourselves was to stop preaching peace and patience because that leads to our graves. We learned your lessons well
[...]
So take some responsibility.
Problem is he has point.
Yeah, it's all my fault because I'm born a Nazi.
Does he? Because some of our ancestors were dicks and could be considered responsible for giving jews a bad attitude we can't judge them for not learning from assholery and start to imitate us at our ancestor's most asshole-ish? Even though nearly all of us living now are exempt of the previously mentioned dickery purely because we learned not to be such assholes?Quote:
Originally Posted by lars573
Could you expand on this?Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
Yeah, it was humorously wrong, so I found it hilarious. Ok, but in seriousness we didn't teach anything and it's not our fault they "listened". They picked what they wanted to follow, it was never forced. If Israeli's wanted to, they could have abandoned the idea of Israel when it became apparent it would only create lots of violence. But they didn't. They could have set an example as a multicultural state in the same vein that Europe has been attempting for the last 40 years but they didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
It's all a big joke. We agree with this philosophy and we have taken it to such extremes that we slaughter Palestinians and evict them from their homes. But the burden is on the West because it is "their" philosophy and "their" teachings. What does that even mean? Did the West invent forced migrations? Pretty sure that's been around for quite some time in human history.
I think it should be less "this is your fault" and more "why are you surprised?" than anything else. I mean Jews have been expelled from countries around the world for centuries when they werent wanted, so I suppose it makes sense that Israel learned how to effectively deal with "undesirables" from past experience. Problem is, the world changed and the "undesirables" fought back.
That argument is the root of all modern anti-Semitism though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Bear in mind, the people who allowed Israel to be founded were Christians, the people in the West now think like Christians even if they are not. Christian thought says that it is better to die than to do evil, and that you turn the other cheek when someone hurts you.
Jewish though demands and eye for an eye - one straw poll I saw on Youtube had a lot of Israeli Jews saying "yes, they believed in vengeance". You'd never get anyone in Western Europe or the US saying "yes, let's take revenge on those people."
So, when this argument is put forward - I've seen it before - it basically tells the Christianised populations in Europe etc. that the Jews are not actually "like us" and that they are not forgiving, that they will take the worst possible lesson from a bad situation.
That argument makes Jewish though repulsive - it feeds straight back into the traditional "Christ killer" slander.
I think one can have that thought without wanting to get rid of jews.
Even the "christ killer" argument is silly because if you care a lot about christ, you should know that he wouldn't want you to avenge him.
Nonetheless I find it strange how so many Christians support jews per default even though the jews reject Jesus as the messiah. Does that mean if I convert from Christianity to judaism I still go to heaven but can follow completely different rules?
A certain former president and a certain serving president of two terms in recent memory are not feeling very appreciated today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Arguably, the drone strike program is straight out of Israel's "vengeance is a dish best served by missile" book.
Its one thing to say that Christian theory detests violence, but then you look at the Spanish Inquisition, the thousands of religious pogroms incited by how the Jews killed Jesus and other things like that, and finally the Holocaust where most Christian leaders stayed silent as millions were murdered, and you wonder why Jews as a people tend not to trust other people who arent within the fold? Undoubtedly Christian-Jewish relations have improved over the past 70 years but the distrust will always be there. Is that a fault in the way that the Jewish community thinks? Absolutely. But is that kind of distrust expected? Absolutely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
And I think you overestimate the way that other people in the West thinks when it comes to vengeance. Just look at post 9/11, everyone was clamoring for vengeance and Im sure there are examples of that in Europe as well.
The problem is that the way Israel is reacting is how Europe would react to things like this before the whole human rights idea took hold. Judaism as a culture is very big on memory, and has many prayers and songs how through the generations "they" tried to kill the Jews but we survived. So its a very "survivor" mentality which feeds into this idea that now that Jews finally have a state to call their own, they will fight tooth and nail to keep it safe from all threats, and right now the biggest threat are the Palestinians. So what do they do? They take the lessons that were learned from centuries of persecution and apply it to that threat.Quote:
So, when this argument is put forward - I've seen it before - it basically tells the Christianised populations in Europe etc. that the Jews are not actually "like us" and that they are not forgiving, that they will take the worst possible lesson from a bad situation.
From my understanding its from the thought that if all Jews go back to Israel it will trigger the messiah coming or something along those lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Yeah its kind of funny, you have these Christians pushing the Zionist agenda so that their messiah will come back, but then you have the ultra-religious Jews opposing it because they believe their messiah has got to come before they can return in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
It is only American-type Evangelicals that believe that sort of stuff by the way, the historic position within mainstream Christianity never advocated such thought. This is because these (largely) American 'dispensationalists' believe that God has continually dealt with humanity through various separate 'dispensations' of his grace, and so the promises given to the church are separate and co-exist with the promises given to the Israelites. The traditional view on the other hand known as 'covenant theology', is that that Jesus himself, and by consequence the church, are actually the fulfilment of the promises given to the Israelites, rather than a something separate in their own right.
This is why dispensationalists are eagerly awaiting for a literal third temple to be built to make sacrifices (in accordance with prophecy), while adherents of covenant theology believe that Jesus himself was that third temple and the last ultimate sacrifice (thus fulfilling the prophecy). I would say the latter view makes more sense in light of John 2: 19-21:
"Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” But the temple he had spoken of was his body."
Anyway, these differences are why dispensationalists believe the Jews must return to their land and build their temple, but all that is irrelevant to those who believe in covenant theology. Sometimes people try to play the anti-semitism card against covenant theology beliefs and slander it as 'replacement theology', as if the church replaces Israel. But this is a misrepresentation because they would believe that the church is the fulfilment of the promises to Israel, not a replacement. And in fact the truth is that covenant theology offers the Jews a higher standing in Bible prophecy, since they believe that the prophetic in-bringing of the Jews prior to the apocalypse is not a physical in-bringing into an area of land, but a spiritual in-bringing into the church that will see them gain an everlasting inheritance. This is why, admist the apocalypticism of the British Civil War, Oliver Cromwell re-invited Jews into Britain to be part of his 'godly republic', after they had been expelled hundreds of years previously.
Now, it is partially because of the misrepresentations of covenant theology that the Israeli government was enraged at a report by the Church of Scotland on the promised land issue. I say partially because frankly solid theology wasn't at the heart of that report, the Church of Scotland has been infested with liberals including those of the unquestioning 'free Palestine' mentality who thought they would go a little beyond the bounds of theology and include a wee critique of Israeli government policy. But theological misunderstandings were still partly to blame.
Not sure why I ended up writing all that, hopefully it will maybe give a broader understanding of the Christian position on the issue.
The average age of Gazans is 17. It's one of the youngest populations in the world. Quarter of a million are under 10.
Respected British news anchor makes a plea for the children of Gaza. Well worth 3 minutes of your time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACgwr2Nj_GQ&sns=em
So what, is it Israel's fault that they drop one every 9 months, they breed like rabbits over there. Get less kids, less get killed by being used as human shields.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
Where to begin with this one....hmmmm.....nope, not worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Historic timeline as a problem though.Quote:
Originally Posted by lars573
Israel was forming before WWII.
Whilst the Holocaust was happening British controlled Palestine was being destabilized by Zionists who were already doing all the following:
"You taught us to pick up guns, you taught us to slaughter and persecute and ethnically cleanse, you taught us that the only way to protect ourselves was to stop preaching peace and patience because that leads to our graves. We learned "
True, but what kicked off modern Zionism was the Dreyfus Affair which was just another big incident of antisemitism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Point Im trying to make here is that Jews have been underfoot for centuries, and when they finally have someone else underfoot are we really so surprised that they exercise that power?
That quote, though, seemed more like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Elr5K2Vuo
Which instantly confirms ACIN's attitude.
Oh noes disaproval is mine. If it wouldn't be for the billions of aid they would starve to death instead of being collateral damage. They are the victims of the war Hamas wages on Israel, not the victims of Israel's retaliations. At least it's quiker. Hamas needs dead kids more than a junkie needs crack and they make damn sure that as many as possible get killed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Pallywood.
OK - I'll get right to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
The Inquisition was a phenomenon of the Renaissance - aimed at building a new Spanish nations it targeted all non-Catholics. This obviously fell heavily upon the Jewish populations, but it also fell heavily upon the Muslim population, which was probably larger, and targeted even those suspected of deviancy - i.e. not being Roman Catholic. Not to belittle the fact that the Jews were expelled, but it was not a movement targeting Jews specifically.
Thousands of religious Pogroms? Unlikely, dozens yes, hundreds possibly, but not thousands. That is a gross exaggeration. Looking through Wikipedia, there are perhaps 100 pages on instances of anti-Jewish pogroms, and some of those (like the 1907 Romanian Peasants' Revolt) were not about Jews, but they were targeted as part of the wealthy merchant class. As far as I know, the only pogroms that targeted Jews specifically as "Christ Killers" were the ones associated with the Crusades - carried out by people that everybody considered unhinged fanatics, including the Church, the Emperor and most normal people.
And then we come to the Holocaust, which targeted Jews first, and then anyone else who the Nazi's considered a threat - and which the Roman Catholic Church (largest denomination in the area affected) vocally opposed while it was possible and continued to actively frustrate throughout the 1940's, leading to the death of some of its clergy.
To listen to you, I'd say they haven't improved at all. If Jews are constalty expecting another Pogrom, which is what this comes down to, and they don't trust the people they live next door to then the situation is exactly the same as for the last 1,000 years.Quote:
Undoubtedly Christian-Jewish relations have improved over the past 70 years but the distrust will always be there. Is that a fault in the way that the Jewish community thinks? Absolutely. But is that kind of distrust expected? Absolutely.
Contrast with Western discourse that talks about "Judeo-Christian" rather than "Abrahamic" religion.
Clamouring for just retribution, which is practically the same but psychologically different. Sure people demand "justice" and they mean vengeance, but you'll rarely hear them say "we want revenge for those killings."Quote:
And I think you overestimate the way that other people in the West thinks when it comes to vengeance. Just look at post 9/11, everyone was clamoring for vengeance and Im sure there are examples of that in Europe as well.
so Jews don't believe in Human Rights?Quote:
The problem is that the way Israel is reacting is how Europe would react to things like this before the whole human rights idea took hold. Judaism as a culture is very big on memory, and has many prayers and songs how through the generations "they" tried to kill the Jews but we survived. So its a very "survivor" mentality which feeds into this idea that now that Jews finally have a state to call their own, they will fight tooth and nail to keep it safe from all threats, and right now the biggest threat are the Palestinians. So what do they do? They take the lessons that were learned from centuries of persecution and apply it to that threat.
Can we try that again, please?
Basically - it's the most toxic of alliances.Quote:
From my understanding its from the thought that if all Jews go back to Israel it will trigger the messiah coming or something along those lines.
This post, though many will still disagree disagree with your point, at least makes a more understandable assertion of Hamas' responsibility in these non-combatant deaths; nor are you the first to suggest that their leadership is benefiting from these deaths and is encouraging their occurrence to continue to garner sympathy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
The post I derided had none of this content, but was the usual "those dirty X, all they do is fornicate and make more of themselves" racist claptrap.
I have been told about this, but I haven't been able to find anything conclusive through google searching, but in short:
Apparently, Hamas were planning a massive assault on Israel, by dressing up as IDF forces and springing out the ground like hobbits to carry out assaults and raids.
These offensive tunnels were built during the 'diplomatic' period of Hamas and the formation of the unity government.
These tunnels cost half-million each (21 in number). The amount of tunnels altogether are in their hundreds, with many built under schools, hospitals, refugee camps, to hide rockets and other military equipment.
Sources:
Al-monitor and Haartz.
The Guardian and NYtimes mention the tunnels but not any plans.
The amount of corruption and the amount of aid-money being ill-spent is terrible. Imagine if all this money was invested in Welfare of the population and diplomatic solutions with israel, instead of being used to buy bombs and rockets.
I bring it upon myself by wording things undimomaticaly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
This guy knows nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Fair enough. Admittedly Im kind of shaky on my medieval history but regardless of the facts this is how its perceived in the most of Jewish community.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Improved in the sense that it went from pogroms being an eventuality to a "maybe in the far off future" but even then its not really mainstream thinking. Its really only the radicals who think that a single brick thrown through a Jewish storefront window is the next Kristallnacht.Quote:
To listen to you, I'd say they haven't improved at all. If Jews are constalty expecting another Pogrom, which is what this comes down to, and they don't trust the people they live next door to then the situation is exactly the same as for the last 1,000 years.
Contrast with Western discourse that talks about "Judeo-Christian" rather than "Abrahamic" religion.
Maybe we were hearing different things then.Quote:
Clamouring for just retribution, which is practically the same but psychologically different. Sure people demand "justice" and they mean vengeance, but you'll rarely hear them say "we want revenge for those killings."
In the sense that perceived threats do not deserve human rights like the rest of us? I think its a worrying trend in how some people think.Quote:
so Jews don't believe in Human Rights?
Can we try that again, please?
Israeli Official To Obama: ‘Leave Us Alone’
Ok that's cool, we will just take back our $3 billion a year in military aid. Have fun with paying for that Iron Dome (which we helped develop/fund) without that money!
Can't they build it themselves from the schematics that they've stolen from you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
I thought China stole the schematics from Israel?
That doesn't mean leave us alone leave us alone. There is leave is alone plain and simple, and leave us alone after the money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
It's all in the nuances.
Couldn't they steal it directly from the US, instead of having to wait until Israel got their hands on it first?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
This has simply become an excuse to satisfy bloodlust
It's a good thing Israel got all those HAMAS fighters in that un sanctioned hospital and school.
It's not the money really. Our financial and military assistance to Israel, that's merely the icing on the cake. Israel's greatest benefit from this relationship is total immunity from UN resolutions. We veto anything and everything even remotely threatening, allowing Israel to wipe its ass with world's opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Now the real question is what we are getting in return for being saddled with such a hefty political liability. That's what Israel is to us: a political liability.
Anyway, as for the crisis at hand, the simplest way to solve it would be to allow Egypt to take over Gaza. Have their tanks roll in and establish a pre-1967 situation. If they don't wanna do it, pay them to do it. Bam: problem solved.
And here silly old me thought it was conflicts like this that the UN was supposed to handle.
Make a clear border for both sides. The border would be protected with state-of-the-art UN soldiers, well equipped and trained to deal fairly with the situation.
I think that's the only viable solution. An alternative would of course be to use nukes to make that whole area a gigantic parking lot...
Oh well, nothing will happen as long as the US stay a Jew lackey.
Ha, that will never happen even if the US dumps Israel as an ally. That would just make Israel more entrenched.
Either way, both sides are teaching their kids to hate the other side so nope this conflict can only end in eventual slaughter.
That's why we need the blue helmets...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
It's hard to convince your kid that that guy - who is ready to sacrifice his life for international justice - is a tangible target.
My point even shorter would be:
Israel and Palestine are like two children quarrelling, and it's time for a grown up to step in between them.
I think its pretty easy. I know this from personal experience because in 2007, about a year after the 2nd Lebanon war, I toured the Lebanon-Israeli border and we saw some of the UN peacekeepers and our guide told us how the UN was basically protecting Hezbollah so they can rearm for the next fight. Now I know that they weren't, but 15 year old me soaked up every word that guide told us about how the UN was just covering for the terrorists.
Its too late for an "adult" to step in, the kids aren't ten years old anymore.
Neutrals are well known bastards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
Well... I don't agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
The UN isn't doing any full intervention, so what people would think might (would) change.
There will always be idiots, but remember that UN warfare is part "nation and education" building. You know, kind of like the US only that they actually mean it.
A full on western assault would cripple their resistance...
Now, I am not talking about weaponized assault, mind you.
I talk about politicians from all over the world having their public say, I talk about comedians world wide making up jokes about it, I talk about controlling their economy, I talk about.... The list goes on, but you get my point.
The UN military guys arent' the REAL show when it comes to the UN, it's the full on cultural assault that matters.
Again: sure there will be idiots... But right now they dwell in a society where they can play their idiocies... Whereas if the UN intervened for real, these same idiots would suddenly have a LOAD of other voices making themselves heard..
And people are not complete idiots, eventually they will listen. Specifically if helped by schools promoting critical thinking, HEY, something else the UN does.
So by "western assault" you mean what basically amounts to a gag order when it comes to Israel being lifted, and a control of their economy? I understand the lifting of the gag order, but the economy part? Im not seeing where that fits in, and I fail to see how even removing the gag order would help. If anything it would make Israel more entrenched.
* Lifting the international gag order would be first priority for any kind of civilized advancement, of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
* The economy part is actually the very main thingy here... Do you think Israel would function for long if the west refused to trade with them, or if the west withdrew their aid?
Israel only functions BECAUSE the west *cough* USA *cough* allows it.
"Entrenched" is BS...
Israel is a small island in a very big sea of "Let's get rid of Israel". Cut off from western aid they would NEVER last for long.
Oh, and it's not even like China or Russia would HELP them, like they do with nations messing with USA.
Israel would kill 100x the people they are now if they were backed into a corner like that. Modern Arab armed forces are piss poor, especially when compared to the Israelis. Not to mention the chemical, biological, and nuclear plans they have if the shit hits the fan.Quote:
Israel is a small island in a very big sea of "Let's get rid of Israel". Cut off from western aid they would NEVER last for long.
Last I checked you needed money to make war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Also, as a more current note you also need the western worlds acceptance to wage war. I'm not kidding, 2014 you need the moral high ground to be able to function. Remove that, and any western nation is at a stand still.
If the Israelis started to attack UN troops the **** would hit the fan, to say the least.
BTW, seriously SFTS. Stop attacking the person, and start attacking the argument. Saying my posts = mental illness and that I am deluded not only paint you in a bad view, but the board at large (as you are senior member).
I personally don't feel negative about your explicit language. But, mind you, I have started to use that to measure just how drunk you are when you post.
Cutting Israel off from the world is what the hard line Zionists want. It would be a boon for the cause. The fact you think UN peacekeepers can do anything is insane.
Srebrenica
Somalia
DRC
ETC.
Those blue helmets stopped the baddies then
A lot depends on which militaries are staffing the blue-beanie mission in question. UN efforts at establishing security zones have had mixed results -- notable successes along with failures wherein they have turned predatory towards their protectees.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Blue helmets are not enough - they need to have really big blue guns and blue tanks and blue airplanes and blue gunships, so that everyone think twice before messing with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Sending them in armed with pocket knives and moral superiority doesn't work.
Just do nothing. The second Hamas is gone there will come something worse. At least you can talk with Hamas (yeah I am inconsistant here considering earlier posts, I know and acknowledge that, but it isn't about me is it). Anything should be done to end this in a reasonable way, it's getting somewhat insane. Doing nothing looks best, more will die of course.
Edit, well that was short, more rockets ad hominem after 72 very short hours that lasted only 4. Whoever is in control there is not interested peace, or interested in a homeland for the Palestinians.
Thesis, Hamas can't afford to have peace because they will become the victim of much much worse radicals. Hamas is a really ugly thing, but less ugly than much uglier groups.
Crazy as it may sound, maybe Hamas is exactly who everyone should treat as a valiable partner for a talk. The alternative is probably much more horrible. That Arab-spring the left cheered on is the new Heart of Darkness. Nice to see a Dutch muslim posing before a gate with heads spiked on in it. Cutting of a head, gently pulling the ear upward for the cut, almost seemed intimate, how sick is that.
Have you tried considering that Palestinians don't have a hive mind and that just maybe some individuals have ideas of their own? Just food for thoughts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Ffs I know Palistinians that live here, had a barbecue with them yesterday, did you? If you assume that I am that stupid it says more about you than it says about me. Guess who they dislike more, the Israeli's or these religious nutjobs who shoot people at weddings because they play music, there is only one answer to that, the right one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
[QUOTE=Fragony;2053605773]Ffs I know Palistinians that live here, had a barbecue with them yesterday, did you? If you assume that I am that stupid it says more about you than it says about me. Guess who they dislike more, the Israeli's or these religious nutjobs who shoot people at weddings because they play music, there is only one answer to that, the right one.[/QUOTE
Your posts imply something else.
A makeshift rocket or two doesn't mean that Palestinians at large, or even Hamas, want war. It means there are few nutjobs with a few makeshift rockets on there hands.
[QUOTE=Sarmatian;2053605774]Oh really, what you make of them is not my concern. I am perfectly harmless. Just outspoken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Apparently the ceasefire ended because Hamas kidnapped a soldier or something. Hamas is claiming he was taken just before the ceasefire began, but who really knows.
FTFYQuote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
He's not wrong, though. Hamas is not the most radical Palestinian movement, not by a long shot. Any sort of peace agreement or even a cease fire must avoid the possibility that Hamas will lose face, otherwise:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
- there's a good chance that Gaza will disintegrate into civil war
- armed splinter groups, more radical than Hamas, will ignore the agreement and start firing rockets at Israel on their own accord
Yes, apparently Israel is strangely upset that in an armed conflict it's military personnel may be at risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooahguy
I'm not convinced that either side is truly in control of what happens in their name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralizec
Israel cancelling the ceasefire because one of the soldiers it sent in to kill civilians is kidnapped. No further comment needed.
Anyone posted up the idf soldier's social media comment about his great success in killing kids?
Why don't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
A handful of town councils in Britain have taken to flying Palestine flags to "raise awareness" about the situation in Gaza. It is not surprising to see it in Muslim areas like Bradford or Tower Hamlets, but strangely it has also happened at my local council building...
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...-scots-3940647
The immigrant community here is tiny, I suspect it is because our council is run by Republicans such as this guy. Note how he supports Irish football teams, his favourite bands include Irish rebel music, and his only inspirational figures given is Karl Marx. Yeah, guys like that are my democratic representatives, LOL!
Anyway, to bring it back to topic, this should not be allowed, councils should not be picking sides in foreign conflicts like this, especially when there is no clear cut 'good guy' to side with. I doubt we have much of a Jewish community but this sort of things may well be offensive to them. Apparently a British-Jewish organisation has already voiced their concerns about it. Certainly, I don't think it is a good idea when the conflict has caused a huge surge in antisemitic attacks in Britain. The council should be backing peace not picking sides.
I'd support any council that said "To hell with them both".Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
What about this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
https://i.imgur.com/TcYvhua.jpg
It's missing a unicorn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
Yeah, political councils acting all political-like, what gives?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Idaho:Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
While I am more than willing to ding Israeli leadership for being cavalier about "collateral damage" (which the numbers make readily demonstrable) it is another thing entirely to imply that they have a policy directive for killing civilians.
Are they collecting ears or paying bounties now? Perhaps the time-honored process of scalping for proof is being used....
If you are that adamantly certain that it is not hard-hearted negligence but active pogromatic policy, why aren't you wearing a keffiyeh as part of the "Legion of Lawrence" and working to rid the world of Zionist evil?
A beautiful image....but only the two hands depicted can make it happen. External efforts are past pointless and approaching farce.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
GEEZ, at least source me when using my exact witticism in the exact same thread... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Another 7 hour ceasefire for humanitarian reasons rejected by Hamas, way to go
The abduction of a soldier was a bullshit-reason from Israel of course, won't argue otherwise
True, but dropping the Israeli carte blanche would probably help Israel to go back to the negiation in good faith. The West Bank staying quiet will, according to current Israeli policies be rewarded by expanded settlements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Be a good or bad Palestinian, current Israeli goverment will still treat you as dirt.
How would they treat the Israeli's if they wouldn't be treated like dirt. Maybe that is just what they simply are.
If they are not, who's to blame really, Israel or the continious attempts of their goverments to not come to a solution.
As far as international law goes, taking over the territory of another people has always been regarded as a casus belli, and iusta causa for the people being encroached on to take whatever measures they wish against the invader. This has been the case for as far back as there has been an understanding of conflict, and even further, if we look at the behaviour of animals, such as the experiment with sticklebacks which showed that an animal in its own territory will feel more confident about a contest, while an animal in another's territory will feel less confident. Even if you, and you do, regard the Palestinians as a people with no right to exist, the Israeli state has agreements with the Palestinian state that recognise each other, or at least with the rump state that's in control of the West Bank. And yet Israel continues to snip away at the West Bank. In that area at least, there is no question about who is right and who is wrong. Israel is an invader.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I'd like you to come up with an argument that shows that Israel is in the right for building settlements in the West Bank that are not subject to the Palestinian authorities.
Casus Belli means a justified war, as far as I can see, it seems to be a completily justified war.
So would the West Bank Palestinians be completely justified in taking any measures possible to expel the Israelis from the Palestinian West Bank as defined in agreements between the Palestinian state and the Israeli state?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
It alll started in 1948, I am of the 1977 variety. Palestian state, sure why not. i look forward to admiring everything they build there. But there isn't any sign of anything at all there is there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
If your beef is with what the Palestinians have failed to build there, you can back your Israeli friends to stay on the West Bank. All they need to do is follow Palestinian laws and pay all the fees, rents and taxes that are due to the Palestinian authorities, and they'll be allowed to stay there for as long as the Palestinian authorities allow them to. And if they want an irrevocable right to stay there, they can take up Palestinian citizenship as well. What's your view on this, other than another snide attempt to dodge the question?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
There is only one question, do they want a state. Any pragmatism would say no, because that state would become a target itself by more radical groups. We have seen the same happining between Fatah and Hamas, and who can really tell it's Hamas firing rockets or a a group that's absolutily not interested in peace like Islamic Jihad, also active there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Edit, I got no pro-isreali friends or rightwing friens in general by the way. All my friends are either leftist, or absolutily apolitical. Yes that causes conversations. I think they are idiots. Still love them.
It requires two visionary leaders to be able to pull it off. A proper and equal peace would benefit both Israel and Palestine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Did you know that Israel imports people from the Philippines to work in their fields, etc, to replace the jobs the Palestinians did? If there was a proper peace, the Palestinians could end up taking that work again and Israel could lift the embargo's, allowing free and prosperous trade to flow into Palestine, which could allow the nation to build itself up and end up forming a mutual partnership of good will.
I would love such a solution to come about, but it feels that sometimes the conflict will only be 'ended' if one side wins, hence my other solution of trying to do the best for the Palestinian people as the 'losers'.