True, you got me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
There ARE a lot of things that are public knowledge but that the President of the United States would never attest to in a formal setting.
My bad!
Printable View
True, you got me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
There ARE a lot of things that are public knowledge but that the President of the United States would never attest to in a formal setting.
My bad!
Probably so, just like it is for pretty much any modern day nation. Don't forget that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
:balloon2:
I'm talking about the USA interfering in foreign countries to help with fair elections against organizations like the Republican Guard. :inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good
EMFM, if there is one, single thing we could do to wipe out this reformist revolution and unite the country behind the mullahs, you've just nailed it. "Counterproductive" doesn't even do it justice.
One of the many reasons I no longer watch cable news.
Lemur, I'm surprised you've tooken such an interest in this.
I've always thought that Iran would one day be our partner in the middle east. Long history ofa middle class, respect for law, respect for education, democratic tradition ... yeah, in time they will be as good an ally as Turkey, and probably far better than Israel. All we need do it wait for the democratic forces to assert themselves.
This is big news for the world, but also big news for America.
And somebody please take out a gag order on Rep. Mike Pence, who wants to author a Congressional resolution in favor of the reformists. I call it the "Imedinnerjacket salvation bill."
"Today I'm introducing a resolution that will do just that. It will express its concern regarding the reported irregularities of the presidential election of 12 June, 2009. It will condemn the violence against demonstrators by pro-government militia in Tehran in the wake of the elections. It will affirm our belief in the universality of individual rights and the importance of democratic and fair elections. And lastly, and most importantly, it will express the support of the American people for all Iranian citizens who struggle for freedom, civil liberties and the protection of the rule of law. [...] Today I'll introduce a resolution. I urge all my colleagues in both parties to join me in expressing their support for these brave and courageous men and women."
No. Just no.
QFT. I've been glued to this news for days, and most of my friends and coworkers only started hearing about it yesterday evening. It's been slow in coming, but it seems like a lot of Americans are finally realizing what is really going on over there. This has the makings of a serious liberalizing, reform-minded democratic revolution. If it succeeds, this could completely rewrite the entire political situation in the Middle East.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
The picture of Iranian Policemen reminded me of these guys.
TC and Lemur, you guys took the words right out of my mouth.
I can only agree with Lemur. I actually cared when I heard that it was a possibility that A-man might lose his election. Then it all broke loose, and I've been looking at HuffPost since, disappointed with the 24/7 news sources. If Iran finally comes around vis-a-vis a democratic moderate Islamic state, then it's gonna be good tidings for all who seek peace in the Middle East.
Hezbollah will have decreased support for terrorist attacks in Lebanon (Hezbollah backed party lost in Lebanon), Iraq will actually settle down, Saudi-Arabia/Kuwait/Turkey don't have to worry about fanatical Shiite Muslim armies (withdrawing the need for serious US troop commitments), Afghanistan will settle down as well.
I almost wish the Iranian Air Force told Ahmadenijad "No, we don't want you, go back to Russia."
I have to say that a lot of the video reminded me of the DDR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal Murat
Are people making too much of this? Barring a complete revolution, whichever candidate wins we're not likely to see any major policy changes from Iran are we?
Hope can be infectious, but whoever does win is still just a front man for the mullahs. I just like the fact that for a change they don't have the West to blame for anything. Even the Soviet Union couldn't rule solely by fear & intimidation forever.
I urge people to do their outmost to support the demonstrations...
As mentioned, not cause it will lead to great changes short-time...
However, giving the Iranian population a sence of hope, showing them they have support can in a longer perspective lead to great things in the middle east.
my thoughts go to the students being killed as we speak :shame:
This whole protest is a step by the "liberal" moderate Iranians, actually mobilizing and acting out against a the repressive government. Iranians are fed up with being poor, unemployed, and having their government run by a militaristic nutjob. Many Iranian commentators liken this the Revolution of 1979, this is a revolt against a "coup" by Ahjmadenijad's miltarist/populist followers. They want change, and while Mousavi isn't a Western-phile at heart, he isn't going to try and wipe Israel off the map; with the current American administration we're looking for greater dialogue and more open relations than had under previous administrations (who knows, we might see a loosening of trade restrictions). You're right in that there won't be major policy changes, but it'll relax the tensions between the two countries (US & Iran), a "reset" sorely needed to bring about greater peace and stability in the Middle East, if only the first stepQuote:
Are people making too much of this? Barring a complete revolution, whichever candidate wins we're not likely to see any major policy changes from Iran are we?
The mullahs have to either curb the power of Ahmadenijad to prevent him from even usurping their powers, or have Mousavi elected.Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC
My thoughts:
Were the elections rigged? Only Anotherdinnerjacket, God and the Iranian Government know.
Has this been an important moment in Iranian history?
Absolutely.
Here's some images for you all. Shows what these militia and pro Adinnerjacket thugs are up to. http://picasaweb.google.com/iranonfi...ranUniComplex#
Also a video for you all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BjczWD8F0U
McClatchy Newspaper, I've never heard of them before so take a grain of salt with this post.
Senior Ayatollah Condemns Voting as Rigged
Quote:
Supporters of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and his main rival in the disputed presidential election, Mir Hossein Mousavi, massed in competing rallies Tuesday as the country's most senior Islamic cleric threw his weight behind opposition charges that Ahmadinejad's re-election was rigged.
"No one in their right mind can believe" the official results from Friday's contest, Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri said of the landslide victory claimed by Ahmadinejad. Montazeri accused the regime of handling Mousavi's charges of fraud and the massive protests of his backers "in the worst way possible."
Impossible to judge. The protesters are demanding far more than a recount at this point. Very hard to squeeze the toothpaste back in the bottle when hundreds of thousands have joined together in public opposition to the regime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Remember that 50% of Iran's population is under 25. Change may not only be possible, it may be inevitable.
The senior cleric denouncing the results is big. Muy grande.
-edit-
National Review's Seth Leibsohn gets it almost perfectly wrong:
'The U.S. Doesn't Want to be Seen As Meddling'
That's the take-away line from President Obama on Iran. That's not going to do it. One can imagine hundreds (if not thousands) of protesters in Iran asking "Where is the U.S.? What does Obama think?"
Really? Is that what the streets full of young Iranians are asking? They're wondering what Obama thinks? Really? Then he concludes with: "This may not be Iran's Tiananmen moment, but it sure is ours." What the **** does that mean?
I've seen some stupid, wrong-headed comments on how the U.S. should behave in this situation, but this takes Best In Show.
Lemur, to Seth Leibsohn's defence.. One might argue that there ARE a hundred, if not a thousand people wondering just that.
Of course, at the same time HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS are demonstrating out on the streets...
It's the palpable sense of frustration about the situation, as thousands are repressed by paramilitary troops without being able to assist (see rant) in any meaningful way. I can only assume it stems from the Boston Massacre. The Peloponnesian War is a perfect example (as I've come to realize) as democratic forces led a revolution, were supported by Athenian troops, and the Democrats slaughtered whole swaths of Oligarchs. So the best thing we can do is, while it pangs me, is to wait-and-watch, and hope that there aren't too many human rights abuses before the end of this.
It will change something, but not enough. It will change the Theocrats view that Iran can be handled easily when they start taking too many blatant liberties. It will not change the overall power structure of Iran.
Also, I think both Britain and the U.S.A may be hoping too much, if we think that Iranian democracy will be pro-Western, many Iranians still remember their last democratic leader, and that he was ousted by a C.I.A-SIS coup and replaced with the brutal and idiotic Shah. A truly democratic leader would probabaly look alot like Mossadeq, rather than Karzai.
That one always makes me go like this: :bounce: every-time Democracy is mentioned in Iran by Western Powers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Default the Magyar
If you didn't know. The leader nationalised Anglo-Persian oil company (known today as BP - British Petroleum). In essence, it is sort of the same reason the "West" hates Hugo Chavez and other leaders for nationalising their oil supplies.
Yeah, its so frikin ironic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
The first is Ruhollah Khomeini. (leader of the revolution, first supreme leader)
The second is Ali Khamenei. (his successor and current)
The third is.. I am not sure.
The fourth is Mir Hossein Mousavi. (ex-prime minister and contender)
Thanks. I am though wondering how to interpret it; tbh I don't quite trust this Mousavi fellow [to be the freedom loving person you sometimes get the impression of].Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Been thinking the exact same thing, as far as foreign policy goes & attitudes to the "west" it will doubtless make not one iota of difference who is in power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
From the on going protests, the sheer size of them, it certainly appears that the voters think that it would make a pretty considerable difference to them though.
The whole election stinks like a fish that's been in the sun too long, whoever decided the winner made a seriously bad call.
There are how many dead now 8? Attacks on universities have been carrying on over night, its likely to get much worse, just hope that it doesn't end in the same way as burma.
Foreign policy-wise no, probably not, but why should that be a concern to us? Why should that change my judgement?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Rachel Maddow and Trita Parsi interview - first video link. "Strategery for Dummies"Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur