Sensationalist UK Headline sparks Eurarabia Scare

Yeah, because you're an Islamist if you observe halal....

What rubbish.

In other news, observing mass now makes you a Jesuit.

I really have never understood the dissonance that allows an individual both to hold humans as exceptional in the natural order and to hold "lower animals" as deserving of equal protections.

If these dirty Jews and Muslims are subhuman savages, then why not allow them the same level of consideration you so graciously grant to the animals they consume?

Or is a Muslim even less than a cow to you?

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

I really have never understood the dissonance that allows an individual both to hold humans as exceptional in the natural order and to hold "lower animals" as deserving of equal protections.

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I have seen some crazies before, a female vegan who believed animals to be above humans and that humans who kill animals should be tried for murder with death sentence as an option. She was honestly a bat-insane individual and when I questioned if her cat should be tried and executed for killing a bird for a 'gift', she frothed at the mouth saying I should die for the animal genocide I commit for eating meat.

I wish I could have said the earlier post to her, but it was one of those 'after-moments' when you reflect on what occurred and the fact she was insane made me stay clear of it.

Though for earlier mentions of "I don't eat meat because it is cruel, but I do like to hunt for sport" does take the biscuit.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

I really have never understood the dissonance that allows an individual both to hold humans as exceptional in the natural order and to hold "lower animals" as deserving of equal protections.

If these dirty Jews and Muslims are subhuman savages, then why not allow them the same level of consideration you so graciously grant to the animals they consume?

Or is a Muslim even less than a cow to you?

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I can shoot Muslims now? Or did I read you wrong, your post seem to have been completely lost by me?

Still, if I were to kill muslims... I am humane enough not to even consider doing it by hanging them upside down and slitting their throats.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

I don't often eat meat because its not my favorite sort of food. If I do eat meat, its almost always turkey, the delicious bird that proves eating animals is a good idea after all.

In general though I get my complete proteins from beans and rice, which is a staple of most of my meals. Because I'm lazy and the farthest thing from a discerning foodie. I guess my point is that one shouldn't necessarily infer political leanings from one's diet.

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Is "do as little harm as you can" really a political leaning though?

I don't object to humans eating meat, I object to humans needlessly killing animals in the most disgusting way, instead of any alternative.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Well sure. And I'd agree with that. But that view is independent of the fact that I don't eat much meat, which is a choice made based on taste and preference. Occasionally I'm going to eat some turkey, whether it was treated right or not. :shrug:

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Yeah, not the point.

The point is people who string animals upside down and slit their throats - or deem it the only source of meat worth eating.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

It kind of is the point. What's worse? A goat or sheep who roams the middle east with his shephard util coming to a frighetning end, or the animals that live terrible lives in industrial facilities only to meet a relatively quick and painless end?

You're objections seem a bit... targeted. Those free range animals live better lives up to the point where they meet a grizzly death not unlike the sort a real predator would have caused anyway. Big deal.

If you take an animal from an industrial farm and kill it in a halal/kosher fashion, that's really arguing about the wrong part of the process.

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This has been stated already:

The discussion is about how we kill them.

I am of course also interested in a discussion on how we treat them generally as they live, but right now and right here we are discussing the killing process.

Do we want it in a humane way, or do we want to hang them upside down and slit their throats?

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Yeah, not the point.

The point is people who string animals upside down and slit their throats - or deem it the only source of meat worth eating.

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Yeah but that's not the order in which things are supposed to happen. First you stun them so they no longer feel anything and don't spoil, then you bleed them and finally you do the hanging upside down and carve them up. And the quicker and cleaner the better.

The act of killing them is not going to get much more humane if you actually want to eat them.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Still, if I were to kill muslims... I am humane enough not to even consider doing it by hanging them upside down and slitting their throats.

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Then what business is it of yours how Muslims like their food killed? Do you lecture on the evils of European wolves for the manner in which they hunt their prey?

Either Muslims are subhuman, in which case their methods are just as valid as the methods of any other predator, or Muslims are human and your equals, and this is little more than an academic disagreement.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Yeah but that's not the order in which things are supposed to happen. First you stun them so they no longer feel anything and don't spoil, then you bleed them and finally you do the hanging upside down and carve them up. And the quicker and cleaner the better.

The act of killing them is not going to get much more humane if you actually want to eat them.

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Is that the Islamic way? Really?

From what I know, they don't stun, nor do they do it in that order. Am I wrong?


GC, Have I ever made a secret of my despise of religions at large, and Islam specifically?

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Then what business is it of yours how Muslims like their food killed? Do you lecture on the evils of European wolves for the manner in which they hunt their prey?

Either Muslims are subhuman, in which case their methods are just as valid as the methods of any other predator, or Muslims are human and your equals, and this is little more than an academic disagreement.

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Now that argument was just retarded.

Muslims are of course human. Thus they should strive to be humane.

Do I have to spell it out more clearly for you?

Another rewording as authorised by Kad, as he objects to the method of killing, which is not just used by Muslims, but by other cultures too.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I can shoot Jews now? Or did I read you wrong, your post seem to have been completely lost by me?

Still, if I were to kill jews... I am humane enough not to even consider doing it by hanging them upside down and slitting their throats.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Yeah... It's not like the Jewish plague has spread pretty much everywhere by now? Or?

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Do I have to spell it out more clearly for you?

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That's precisely what I've been getting at for a while now...

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Another rewording as authorised by Kad, as he objects to the method of killing, which is not just used by Muslims, but by other cultures too.

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Yes?

Have I ever ever EVER said I am not vehemently against bronze/iron age dogma?

Again, what's your point?

I just happen to dislike muslims more than jews, solely because there are a larger amount of muslims than jews - specially when you count the ones affecting my everyday life.

That aside, both religions are absolutely and equally horrendous.

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I just happen to dislike muslims more than jews, solely because there are a larger amount of muslims than jews

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Have I ever ever EVER said I am not vehemently against bronze/iron age dogma?

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:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Is that the Islamic way? Really?

From what I know, they don't stun

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They don't like it when the animal is killed as part of the stunning.

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, nor do they do it in that order. Am I wrong?

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You should kill first, and afterwards hang the carcass. Slaughter is dangerous to the butchers if the animal resists, and it's not going to agree to being dangled upside down willingly.

Killing the animals is never going to be pleasant for them, but for instance take the example you gave of the dog you fed food before putting it down and compare it to the practice of letting the animals rest, feed and water them prior to any unpleasant business (be it transport or slaughter) so they are as calm and unsuspecting as possible. Industrial slaughterhouses don't want the animals to realise what is about to hit them, not even when it hits them -- of course reality is not this ideal by a long shot.

Plenty of halal meat comes from industrial slaughterhouses and in the context of industrial slaughter halal is mostly a set of recommendations to implement most of which make a good deal of sense outside of the context of religious beliefs anyway. For example you don't want to try and avoid mixing different types of meat and you want to observe hygiene standards and so on anyway.

HoreTore's link is an excellent read, if only for the cold appraisal of the reality. Also, this one: http://www.grandin.com/

Here's an educational video Kadagar:

It contains no blood or killing, at least Part 1, don't know about the second part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeNJHw4MoT4

The only safe way of eating meat is by getting its internal temperature high enough when you cook it.

The rest is just pomp and circumstance.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Here's an educational video Kadagar:

It contains no blood or killing, at least Part 1, don't know about the second part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeNJHw4MoT4

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Must say that that's pretty damn amazing how calms them down, they are in their own hub of course and haven't been transported, but still well done.

Yeah, so what about part 2?

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Yeah, so what about part 2?

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Didn't watch it. I did watch a video of a piglet castration without anaesthesia instead and shut it off halfway through because the screaming alone is heart wrenching and the images only make it worse. Of course some of our civilized people in the west have been saying it's not a big deal (apparently they even said the piglets don't feel it) but the fascist EU has banned it by 2018 anyway and it's not necessary to get good meat from male pigs if they are treated properly and not stressed their entire life.

Yeah... I call BS then.

You cant judge Islamic slaughter from the cozy snuggling before the slaughter that happens at one place, can you?

What an idiotic argument.

I wont link part 2, but it's not hard to find. Absolutely barbaric - 2014 we have more humane methods to kill animals.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Yeah... I call BS then.

You cant judge Islamic slaughter from the cozy snuggling before the slaughter that happens at one place, can you?

What an idiotic argument.

I wont link part 2, but it's not hard to find. Absolutely barbaric - 2014 we have more humane methods to kill animals.

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Even in part 2 I didn't see a single animal hanging upside down while it had its throat slit, which was one of your main arguments.
You also can't rate western slaughter from the theoretical methods, which often do not really work in practice.
There was even a case in the USA last weekend where they tried to slaughter a human, who ended up being in horrible pain for 45 minutes or so. "Theoretically" it's supposed to be "humane".

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Originally Posted by Husar

Even in part 2 I didn't see a single animal hanging upside down while it had its throat slit, which was one of your main arguments.
You also can't rate western slaughter from the theoretical methods, which often do not really work in practice.
There was even a case in the USA last weekend where they tried to slaughter a human, who ended up being in horrible pain for 45 minutes or so. "Theoretically" it's supposed to be "humane".

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I remember my ex(with a master in breeding) was furious that the majority of Norwegian farmers continued to carry hens upside down, even when it has been proved beyond doubt that it leads to decreased egg production.

Agriculture is a conservative field, old habits take a long time to die-

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Originally Posted by Husar

Even in part 2 I didn't see a single animal hanging upside down while it had its throat slit, which was one of your main arguments.
You also can't rate western slaughter from the theoretical methods, which often do not really work in practice.
There was even a case in the USA last weekend where they tried to slaughter a human, who ended up being in horrible pain for 45 minutes or so. "Theoretically" it's supposed to be "humane".

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First of all, that video isn't representative of general halal slaughter.

Secondly, as much as the practical can fail, why oh WHY would we strive for and legislate for anything but the most humane method?

It's 2014, time to leave folklore and witchcraft behind us. No?

How do you know what the most humane method is? Do you revive some animals and ask them how much fun their death was on a scale of 1 to 10? When you slit the throat, the brain should run out of oxygen relatively fast and the animal becomes unconscious.
Modern factory slaughter is even worse than your version of halal slaughter, as can be read here: http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/slaughter/

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Imagine being hung upside down, shocked into paralysis, having your throat cut, then drowned in hot water...while you’re conscious. That’s the stuff of nightmares, and it’s the tragic reality for billions of birds each year. These animals have virtually no protection from the worst slaughter abuses.

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See? These animals are pretty much conscious, they are just paralyzed so they cannot move to evade the blades.

And pigs don't fare much better: http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-u...ort-slaughter/

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A typical slaughterhouse kills up to 1,100 pigs every hour. The sheer number of animals killed makes it impossible for them to be given humane, painless deaths. Because of improper stunning, many pigs are alive when they reach the scalding tank, which is intended to soften their skin and remove their hair.

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So I'm not sure why you single out halal as inhumane and say western methods are more humane.
There is even a rather detailed answer on Yahoo answers: https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/questio...2054725AAEfmRP

And there are people who say the exact opposite: http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.U2q5tIa0PpA

I find it somewhat depressing that people appear to be more concerned with the welfare of the food that we consume than the people who make it. Loads of stickers saying: free range eggs, non GMC veg, yet finding a free trade sticker is rare. It's mildly concerning considering the many documentaries we see about people getting screwed for our food, the highlight being that a lot of the money we buy chocolate with goes to ivory coast child slavers.

'A typical slaughterhouse kills up to 1,100 pigs every hour. The sheer number of animals killed makes it impossible for them to be given humane, painless deaths. Because of improper stunning, many pigs are alive when they reach the scalding tank, which is intended to soften their skin and remove their hair.'

Not most are still alive, they all are. It's tragic if they are improperly stunned but most are knocked out.

As for the chickens, they are hanged upside down yes, than they go trough an electrified pool which instantly knocks them out. It all goes really fast.

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Originally Posted by Husar

How do you know what the most humane method is? Do you revive some animals and ask them how much fun their death was on a scale of 1 to 10? When you slit the throat, the brain should run out of oxygen relatively fast and the animal becomes unconscious.
Modern factory slaughter is even worse than your version of halal slaughter, as can be read here: http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/slaughter/



See? These animals are pretty much conscious, they are just paralyzed so they cannot move to evade the blades.

And pigs don't fare much better: http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-u...ort-slaughter/



So I'm not sure why you single out halal as inhumane and say western methods are more humane.
There is even a rather detailed answer on Yahoo answers: https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/questio...2054725AAEfmRP

And there are people who say the exact opposite: http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.U2q5tIa0PpA

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I have no idea what the most humane method is. We should however strive towards achieving it, no?

Bronze age dogma probably isn't the answer 2014.

Shouldn't this be a more... Scientific debate - rather than religious? If we are looking out for the animals?

Whatever way is the best, I am pretty sure a ban on having the animals unconscious really really REALLY isn't the best standard to set, no?

It's hard to monitor every slaughterhouse, and even harder to monitor every single kill. That's why we need laws to make it as decent as possible. Am I wrong here?

From that perspective, why would it be better to legislate against the animals being unconscious, than allowing it?

When it's time for my dog to go, I sure as hell wont pet him and then slit his throat. Why should I not offer the same care to other animals up for death?

As far as I see it, legislating slaughter methods on grounds of "humane-ness" would be like legislating that all next of kin must have their deceased be frozen in liquid nitrogen and broken up.