Some joyous tidings from Israel

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Originally Posted by tibilicus

A small minority of Muslims are radicals and even then radical Muslims are situated in certain country's and then most of the time they aren't a majority.

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How do you define radical?
Is genital mutilation radical to you?
Is teaching children to hate the West and America radical? (Evidently not, since we already practically teach our children to here, come to think of it)
Is the oppression of women radical to you?
Is the murder of apostates radical to you?
Is the publicly condoned murder of homosexuals radical to you?
Is violence towards critics of Islam radical to you?

If you answered yes to any of these questions, then perhaps you may want to change the part about a "small" minority. Yes, I'm sure it is still a minority.

I personally couldn't care less what someone's religion is or isn't. To quote Marvin the Robot, I ask only for information.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Is there even a decent oil supply in Afghanistan?

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*cough* Pipelines. Wasn't some American firm having talks regarding one with the Taliban once before the latter called it quits ?

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Is genital mutilation radical to you?

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Er - you do know it's a local folk tradition in certain parts of Africa that has zilch to do with the practicioners' confessional affiliations, right ? The local Christians and whatnots there practice it too AFAIK...

I think talking about the USA is a bit off topic...

This isnt about the WoT...

List of Hamas suicide attacks.

Another reason to not support Hamas.

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Another reason to not support Hamas.

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Click on the link at the bottom of your link and see America and Israels favourite "moderates" list of suicide attacks .
Funny isn't it , Hamas who cannot be supported because they are crazy stopped the suicide attacks in 2005 while Fatah who lost an election but tried to sieze power can be supported and armed even though in 2008 they still did the suicide thing .

EDIT: Removed hotlinked picture. Please note, forum rules forbid the posting of pictures of dead bodies. BG

Need I say more?

How on earth do you want to justify the murder of a child?

Let me get this straight:

Airstrikes OK
Artillery OK
Rockets TERRORIST!
Suicide bombs - eeeeevil!!!

:inquisitive:

It's as though if you want to indiscriminately kill people there are things one just doesn't do... unsurprisingly the "allowed" methods are high tech and are not available to Hamas. Perhaps if we gave them some howitzers and shells suddenly it'd be a proper fight.

Why is killing a child worse than killing an adult? Most adults just want to live a relatively quiet life, raise kids etc etc. Killing a mother or father will shatter just as many lives.

~:smoking:

It seems to me that if you don't want your own women and kids killed then stop firing rockets at Israeli schools and day care centres. Simple really.

But it's not your own is it? It's people nearby, who if they didn't see you fire the rockets won't be ready for the artillery shells coming back.

The people responsible for the strikes on both sides are mostly shielded from the responses.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Why is killing a child worse than killing an adult? Most adults just want to live a relatively quiet life, raise kids etc etc. Killing a mother or father will shatter just as many lives.

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I agree with that. And the rest of the post but I accidentally deleted that. :sweatdrop:

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It seems to me that if you don't want your own women and kids killed then stop firing rockets at Palestinian schools and day care centres. Simple really.

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Works both ways don't it .

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Works both ways don't it

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Who started it then? Doh! The evil Israelis of course, going over to Palestine, taking all the jobs and women.

Anyway I would have thought that left leaning members would be overjoyed at the results of unregulated mass immigration.

:laugh4:

I'm more concerned over whether Israel's response will (a) stop Hamas from firing these rockets, and/or (b) further Israel's long-term security.

The results of previous Israeli military strikes into Palestinian territory suggest that (a) is generally not true, at least outside the very short term. Israeli politics suggests that no one has any clue whether anything Israel is doing will achieve or harm (b).

I think Israel should consider why international opinion seems to be swinging against it, and take steps to counter that swing, in addition to or instead of military actions like this.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Er - you do know it's a local folk tradition in certain parts of Africa that has zilch to do with the practicioners' confessional affiliations, right ? The local Christians and whatnots there practice it too AFAIK...

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Yes, I do know that, I do not think it is practiced by the majority of Muslims, and is indeed condemned by many Arabian Islamic scholars. I do think it is interesting that that is the only one you decided to debate. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Guildenstern

I'm more concerned over whether Israel's response will (a) stop Hamas from firing these rockets, and/or (b) further Israel's long-term security.

The results of previous Israeli military strikes into Palestinian territory suggest that (a) is generally not true, at least outside the very short term. Israeli politics suggests that no one has any clue whether anything Israel is doing will achieve or harm (b).

I think Israel should consider why international opinion seems to be swinging against it, and take steps to counter that swing, in addition to or instead of military actions like this.

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Assuming this is really about land but it isn't, this is a religious conflict. Never will never stop they are too allah-crazed, as we have seen. They already had peace but they can't control theirselves the need to kill is too strong and the need to kill will always be too strong. Just because the media is turning on them doesn't mean people are, our quality media are predictably enough united in prayer channeling their negative energy towards Israel and the lefties are predictably enough mentally blocking the thousands of rockets that fell on Israel (I don't think their brain is able to deal with such facts, you can tell them about it but they will point out that you can't handle the truth) and calling for a third intifada but it really pays to read the comments below the articles.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ildofhamas.jpg

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

It seems to me that if you don't want your own women and kids killed then stop firing rockets at Israeli schools and day care centres. Simple really.

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2 points to make here:

Firstly there was a ceasefire which stopped when one side launched a bombing raid killing 6 people on the 3rd November. I wonder which side launched that raid?

Secondly how many are innocents are killed in total by each side in these raids - and what justification is there for collective punishment?

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Just because the media is turning on them doesn't mean people are, our quality media are predictably enough united in prayer channeling their negative energy towards Israel and the lefties are predictably enough mentally blocking the thousands of rockets that fell on Israel (I don't think their brain is able to deal with such facts, you can tell them about it but they will point out that you can't handle the truth)

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Can't handle the truth .:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Frag you wouldn't know the truth if it announced itself in 10 foot high neon letters with a trumpet fanfare and firework display while it bit you on the nose .
The truth Frag is that Israel has tried this before , it doesn't work . They tried it again in Lebanon where they launched thousands of rockets thousands of bombs and thousands of shells , it achieved nothing apart from making Israel look stupid and weak while cementing Hezballahs grip on the territory .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

The truth Frag is that Israel has tried this before, it doesn't work.

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If there is anything that hasn't worked over the year's it are peace treaties. It isn't a matter of tying to be loved for the Israeli's it's a matter of not being killed by hatebeards. The hatebeards are pretty clear on what there goal is, thought experiment; shave their beards, shave their heads, give them a BNP logo.

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If there is anything that hasn't worked over the year's it are peace treaties.

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried .

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Frag you are too much. ~:flirt:

"If you don't understand colonialism, ethnic cleansing and the war for freedom, you can't understand Palestine." - Ilan Pappe

What you fail to understand is just how ingrained the hatred is in the minds of both sides. And that the violence is not the most pressing issue. The most pressing issue is that both sides fail to gain a wider perspective and/or question why the current situation stands as it does. They are happy to believe what has been told to them by their parents or political leaders. No matter where you hear something, or read something, it is going to be biased. Yet, it is your responsibility to understand and acknowledge that there will be bias, as with any source of information and therefore it is up to you to question it's reliability. This unfortunately does not happen, thus we are left with a perpetually open-ended conflict

The posts hooahguy made show this perfectly. He has obviously been given his views on the subject by his parents, and his parents would almost certainly be the same. Force fed opinion from an early age, without doing his own research and investigation to reach his own conclusions. Either that or he has undertaken a very one sided research effort.

Both Israel and the Arab states are to blame. BOTH of them. They both engage in unspeakable violence and blood-shed. Both have caused untold suffering on the other side, as well as caused suffering among their own people. Whether it's Israeli soldiers going into refugee camps and murdering innocents or bombing civilian centres with F16 bombers. Or whether it's Hezbolah firing mortars from Lebanon into Israeli settlements or suicide bombers blowing up buses. It doesn't matter. Violence against innocents, whomever they may be, is never justified. Especially not when the violence being carried out is thinly veiled collective punishment.

I implore everyone to read any of the works of Avi Schlaim, especially The Iron Wall, Ilan Pappe, Edward Said, Walid Khalidi, Richard A. Falk, Ella Shohat, Nur-eldeen Masalha, John Pilger, Benny Morris, Efraim Karsh, Shabtai Teveth, Norman Finkelstein, Daniel Pipes, Amir Taheri, Anita Shapira. (As a side note, reading the early work of Benny Morris and then comparing his viewpoint to where he stands now really shows how fickle human perspective is and how easy it is for people to be swayed from progressiveness to unadulterated bias.)

Disclaimer: For those of you that can't be bothered to find where my bias lies, I stand slightly pro-Palestinian.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Yes, I do know that, I do not think it is practiced by the majority of Muslims, and is indeed condemned by many Arabian Islamic scholars. I do think it is interesting that that is the only one you decided to debate. ~;)

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Well, it seemed there wasn't that much grounds for it given that Europeans were doing the rest of the list not all that long ago... until they eventually tired of murdering each other (and the occasional outsider) over confessional issues. (Northern Ireland being a conditional anomaly.) "All but the most fanatical had begun to realize grapeshot might not actually be a good theological argument", as it were.

You know, Enlightenment and all that junk. Sidelining religion etc., the fun stuff some colonial cranks keep claiming will be the downfall of our civilisation and so on. :wink3:

I figured that was obvious and universal knowledge, and hence needed no reiterating... :tongue2:
(Also, I had to leave for work.)

The Muslims just haven't yet gone through the same process. My personal bet is that the current wave of hardcore revivalism - limited to fringe diehards - is a clear sign that said process of secularisation is at work, as such extremist reactionarism was much in evidence at the early stages of the European equivalent.
Sure hope the poor buggers don't need to have to go through similar drawn-out spates of religiously inspired organised mass violence though...

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

Israel is the only middle-east country currently considered a democracy in 2008 by the economist:
http://a330.g.akamai.net/7/330/25828...dex%202008.pdf

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Any state that perpetrates occupation cannot be called a democratic state - Ilan Pappe.

It's being reported that Israeli ground forces have invaded Gaza in the last hour.

Oh, God no... This just keeps getting better, doesn't it? :no:

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Originally Posted by Rythmic

Any state that perpetrates occupation cannot be called a democratic state - Ilan Pappe.

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Any state that perpetrates occupation after it's people voted for it in a referendum can be called a democratic state. - N. M. Vonken

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Originally Posted by Husar

Any state that perpetrates occupation after it's people voted for it in a referendum can be called a democratic state. - N. M. Vonken

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:laugh4:

let's hope Israel doesn't get hit by to many IED's on its way in.

Sigh, all this for political reasons. I hate democracy...

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Originally Posted by Watchman

The Muslims just haven't yet gone through the same process.

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I can think of better pets, why not take a cat

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Originally Posted by tibilicus

let's hope Israel doesn't get hit by to many IED's on its way in.

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On the other hand if Isreal gets bloodied a bit they may think twice next time.

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Originally Posted by Lord Winter

On the other hand if Isreal gets bloodied a bit they may think twice next time.

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The whole reason they're in there is to make some terrorists think twice.

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Originally Posted by Rythmic

The posts hooahguy made show this perfectly. He has obviously been given his views on the subject by his parents, and his parents would almost certainly be the same. Force fed opinion from an early age, without doing his own research and investigation to reach his own conclusions. Either that or he has undertaken a very one sided research effort.

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so you have visited my family and know what they tell me? :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
funny. they tell me nothing. i form my own views. in fact i have done research. its just that what ihave found not to your liking, you write it off as propaganda.
very disgusting.

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Originally Posted by Rythmic

Whether it's Israeli soldiers going into refugee camps and murdering innocents

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do you have proof of this? :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

The whole reason they're in there is to make some terrorists think twice.

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Well there's still attacks going on so they need to rethink there approach a little. All there doing is handing Hamas Propaganda material.

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

So what kind of democracy restricts religious worship to those over 50s like Israel has done today for Muslims only? Or attempt to prevent demonstrations against their state terror by Palestinians?

In any case, being a democracy doesn't give you a blank check to beat down anyone else, especially since Palestinians democratically elected their government too.

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um, excuse me? muslims have FULL religious rights. they can worship as they please. they are not prevented from doing so- only when religion turns to violence it is prevented.

Two things will happen (Don't call me a prophet plz): Israel will take significant casualties, as Hamas has been preparing for and has provoked this invasion since the last Lebanon-Israeli War.
Hezbollah will most probably attack North of Israel, as they too have strengthened and dug in deeply, and want to inflict another defeat to the Israeli forces.

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On the other hand if Isreal gets bloodied a bit they may think twice next time.

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Unfortunately not , they got their arses handed to them in Lebanon and achieved nothing , the whole reason they pulled out of Gaza was because they couldn't afford it , but now they are going back in just to look "decisive" before next months elections .

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The whole reason they're in there is to make some terrorists

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A very accurate statement there Mars :2thumbsup:
I take it the two extra words were a typo ?

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i form my own views.

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Yes I had noticed

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in fact i have done research

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

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its just that what ihave found not to your liking, you write it off as propaganda.

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Damn , and there was me thinking that what you have "found" with your "research" is mainly bollox .

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do you have proof of this?

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:dizzy2:
Do some bloody research .

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um, excuse me? muslims have FULL religious rights. they can worship as they please. they are not prevented from doing so- only when religion turns to violence it is prevented.

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As far as I can tell, hooahguy is right in this aspect. I can find very little about oppression concerning Muslims in Israel, though it might have changed over the last ten (?) years.

Hail Israel!

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Damn , and there was me thinking that what you have "found" with your "research" is mainly bollox .

:dizzy2:
Do some bloody research .

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indeed. i have. you see, my research doesn't conform with your views, so naturally you write it off as 'bollox". and i think that your "research" is also bollox. see how simple it ius to turn the tables? :smash:

i find no real proof of an israeli government approved mission by the IDF of going into refugee camps and shooting civilians. if you have i will look at it and if need be i will concede. unlike you i am willing to concede when i am proven wrong.

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Unfortunately not , they got their arses handed to them in Lebanon and achieved nothing , the whole reason they pulled out of Gaza was because they couldn't afford it , but now they are going back in just to look "decisive" before next months elections .

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They lost 121 men in lebonon, which isn't a ton when you look at the big picture. If they carry this out again and lose even more and still see the violence going on, then they may start inching away from that big red button. I'm not saying it would cause world peace but it would at least keep the Isrealis from bombing the :daisy: out of Gaza every time a mortar is fired.

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Originally Posted by rasoforos

Are you suggesting that unless one goes there they cannot have an opinion? This is not something I can comply with because...

...I haven't been to planet Venus either but I trust it is a infernal hellhole.

Sure it is good to have a first hand look but we are entitled to our opinions regardless thank you very much. You are probably not in Gaza at the moment either :)

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no, you misunderstand me.
i did not say that you couldnt have opinion.s i dint not say that at all. i said the way to have the FAIREST opionion is to go to the place of conflict.
let me give you an example:
a few years ago Amnesty International condemned Israel for destroying the house of a known terrorist leader. afterwards, they went to the site, got the real story, and found out that no one was in the house and israel found valuable info in the house regarding future suicide plots and was able to foil them.
see?

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Originally Posted by Hax

As far as I can tell, hooahguy is right in this aspect. I can find very little about oppression concerning Muslims in Israel, though it might have changed over the last ten (?) years.

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actually it changed none. muslims still have full right to worship.

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a few years ago Amnesty International condemned Israel for destroying the house of a known terrorist leader. afterwards, they went to the site, got the real story, and found out that no one was in the house and israel found valuable info in the house regarding future suicide plots and was able to foil them.
see?

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hooahguy, can you back that up with any links or something of the like? It's really easy to say that they did this and that.

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Originally Posted by Hax

hooahguy, can you back that up with any links or something of the like? It's really easy to say that they did this and that.

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hold. ill quote from a book that ill get from my library downstairs....

EDIT: A Time for Truth, Page 103-104.
sorry no link.

when i have time ill get the exact quote.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

hold. ill quote from a book that ill get from my library downstairs....

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This guy does his own research, fellas.

Are you referring to Sheik Ahmed Yassin?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried .

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hm. so i guess that means that the palestinians are not responsible for the breaking of numerous treaties?

in may of 2001, Sharon ordered a ceasefire for all israeli troops agaisnt palestinian terrorists. you wanna know how it was met? with a huge increase of palestinian violence!

so much for all of the palestinians wanting peace.... :help:

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

i did not say that you couldnt have opinion.s i dint not say that at all. i said the way to have the FAIREST opionion is to go to the place of conflict.

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I don't think so. Go to Israel and you will more than likely recieve a very pro-Israeli stance. Go to the Gaza strip and you will recieve a very pro-Palestinian stance. The only way I see is United Nations going in to investigate (They tried that, but Israel turned him down :inquisitive:)

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Originally Posted by SwedishFish

I don't think so. Go to Israel and you will more than likely recieve a very pro-Israeli stance. Go to the Gaza strip and you will recieve a very pro-Palestinian stance. The only way I see is United Nations going in to investigate (They tried that, but Israel turned him down :inquisitive:)

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the UN? haha! do i have stories for you....
the UN is a decidedly anti-israel institution. israel knows that. the only thing that will result from yet another visit is another resolution agaisnt israel.
why should they make things harder for themselves?

another thing i found out this weekend studying maps of israeli jurisdiction in the west bank was that the refugee camps there are under PA control! israel has no jurisdiction as an occupier over them.
only one of them, called Shuafat.

also, the UNRWA, which helps the palestinians, is given $11 million by israel. currently, UNRWA gets only 6% of its budget from arabs states. the majority from israel.
essentially, israel is doing more than any other arab state for the palestinians.

I concur with SwedishFish. I don't think you can have a purely neutral view on this, as we are all biased.

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hm. so i guess that means that the palestinians are not responsible for the breaking of numerous treaties?

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Here, your view is flawed. You suggest that all the Palestinians are responsible for the breaking of the treaties, while in fact this could (!) be blamed on the fundamentalist Muslims. Saying that "the Palestinians" are responsible for breaking the treaties is as saying that "the Jews" are hungry for more land.

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the UN is a decidedly anti-israel institution.

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Look here. I don't think that the UN is anti-Israel necessarily, but for the peace in Palestina and Israel.

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in may of 2001, Sharon ordered a ceasefire for all israeli troops agaisnt palestinian terrorists. you wanna know how it was met? with a huge increase of palestinian violence!

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Is this what you mean?

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As far as I can tell, hooahguy is right in this aspect. I can find very little about oppression concerning Muslims in Israel, though it might have changed over the last ten (?) years.

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Well lets see

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Institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against Israeli Arabs, non-Orthodox Jews, and other religious groups continued.

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Now of course the people that wrote that could be making it up ...could you address you complaints to the US State Dept if you wish to dispute what they wrote .
But hey if you want to go past the summary in the State depts human rights reports they have another bloody big one just on religious freedom

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

the UN? haha! do i have stories for you....
the UN is a decidedly anti-israel institution. israel knows that. the only thing that will result from yet another visit is another resolution agaisnt israel.
why should they make things harder for themselves?

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Obviously Israel is doing something wrong if the U.N. is "against" them.

Oh Hail Poor Israel! Everyone is against us!

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

also, the UNRWA, which helps the palestinians, is given $11 million by israel. currently, UNRWA gets only 6% of its budget from arabs states. the majority from israel.
essentially, israel is doing more than any other arab state for the palestinians.

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It's also doing more to destroy it......

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essentially, israel is doing more than any other arab state for the palestinians.

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Including bombing them?

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also, the UNRWA, which helps the palestinians, is given $11 million by israel. currently, UNRWA gets only 6% of its budget from arabs states. the majority from israel.

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Do you have any graphs or statistics to prove this? I can only find a 5 million euro contribution by the EU, and $135,000 by the Tarek Ahmad Al-Juffali Foundation, and this on the UNRWA's site:

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The Agency’s largest donors in 2007 were the United States, the European Commission, Sweden, Norway and the United Kingdom. As of 31 May 2008, the Agency's largest contributors for 2008 are the United States, the European Commission, Sweden, the United Kingdom, Norway and the Netherlands.

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Israel is not even mentioned at all.
@Tribesman: I've looked up what you said, and I've found this (on the Jewish library, no less!):

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The Government discriminates against non-Jews, the vast majority of which are Arabs, in the areas of employment, education, and housing. The Orr Legal Commission of Inquiry, established to investigate the 2000 police killing of 12 Israeli-Arab demonstrators, issued a final report in September 2003 noting historical, societal, and governmental discrimination against Arab citizens. In June the Government approved an interministerial committee's proposals, which included the creation of a government body to promote the Arab sector and a volunteer national civilian service program for Arab youth. These proposals were approved in attempt to address some of the Orr Commission's recommendations; however, Israeli-Arab advocacy organizations continued to criticize the Government for its failure after 4 years to indict any of the policemen involved in the 2000 events and its continued neglect of other issues of importance to the Israeli-Arab community, such as the just distribution of resources.

In civic areas in which religion is a determining criterion, such as the religious courts and centers of education, non-Orthodox Jewish institutions routinely receive less state support than their Orthodox Jewish counterparts. Additionally, National Religious (i.e., modern Orthodox, one of the country's official Jewish school systems) and Christian parochial schools complain that they receive less funding than public secular schools despite the fact that they voluntarily abide by all national curricular standards. During the period covered by this report, the two groups together took their case for equal funding to the High Court. At the end of this period, there was no decision on the case.

Government funding to the different religious sectors is disproportionate to the sectors' sizes. Non-Orthodox streams of Judaism and the non-Jewish sectors receive proportionally less funding than the Orthodox Jewish sector. According to IRAC, the equivalent of less than 1 percent of public funding for Jewish cultural activities is provided to non-Orthodox or secular organizations, and over 99 percent of the funding goes to Orthodox Jewish organizations. IRAC reports that government funding has not gone into the construction of any non-Orthodox synagogues. In 2003 the Supreme Court ruled that state funds could be used for the construction of a reform synagogue in the city of Modi'in and referred the petition to the Modi'in municipality for action. IRAC reports that the city already has several Orthodox synagogues, but none that is conservative or reform.

Government resources available to non-Orthodox Jewish and Arab public schools are proportionately less than those available to Orthodox Jewish public schools. According IRAC, about 96 percent of state funds for religious education were allocated to Orthodox or ultra-Orthodox Jewish schools. Children attending public non-Orthodox Jewish schools do not receive instruction on Judaism, and the budget for teaching Islam or Christianity in the Arab public school system is disproportionately smaller. Quality private religious schools for Israeli Arabs exist; however, parents often must pay tuition for their children to attend such schools due to inadequate government funding. Jewish private religious schools receive significant government funding in addition to philanthropic contributions from within the country and abroad, which effectively lowers the schools' tuition costs. Non-Jewish Israelis are underrepresented in the student bodies and faculties of most universities and in the higher level professional and business ranks.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

A very accurate statement there Mars :2thumbsup:
I take it the two extra words were a typo ?

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I offered no opinion on whether or not it would work, I simply stated their objectives.

Israel indeed does a lot for the UNWRA.

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the UN is a decidedly anti-israel institution. israel knows that.

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Anti Israeli ?
Lets see .
They are against the annexation of territory through conquest because its against international law .
They are against transfering a civilian population to militarily occupied territory because its against international law .
They are against the expulsion of civilians , the demolition of their homes and the siezure of their property, because its against international law .
Well this list could go on for ages

See a pattern there Hooah ?
The UN is decidedly against Israel when it breaks international law
That is part of the charter of the UN
The second part of the Charter says that members have to follow the law , Israel is a member but doesn't follow the membership rules .
So simple isn't it .
If Israel didn't constantly violate the rules of the UN the UN wouldn't constantly say Israel is breaking the rules .
So it isn't a case of the UN being anti Israel , its a case of Israel acting like a stupid idiot and getting what it deserves .

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also, the UNRWA, which helps the palestinians, is given $11 million by israel. currently, UNRWA gets only 6% of its budget from arabs states. the majority from israel.
essentially, israel is doing more than any other arab state for the palestinians.

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Where the hell do you get this rubbish from ?
It certainly isn't from the UNRWA financial accounts , lets see the 4th biggest contributer for the emergency program over the past 7 years is the UAE red crescent , the biggest contributing country is of course the USA which gave 108 million in 05 and 137 million in 06 .
I think what Hooah means is that israel after illegally holding on to the PAs tax income gave a very small portion of the Palestinians governments money to charity because it wouldn't give it to its owners .:dizzy2:

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Israel is not even mentioned at all.

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True you can go back through the financial archives , nothing at all from Hooahs generous Israel

Malcom Rifkind on the Gaza attacks:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/4...ian-state.html

Hey Furunculus Rifkinds headline needs changing .....

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Expanding illegal settlements block the birth of a Palestinian state

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As for balance he cannot talk about Israel creating conditions on the ground without talking about Israel creating conditions on the ground .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

... Israel has tried this before , it doesn't work . They tried it again in Lebanon where they launched thousands of rockets thousands of bombs and thousands of shells , it achieved nothing apart from making Israel look stupid and weak while cementing Hezballahs grip on the territory .

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The Second Israel v Lebanon War ended September 2006. How many rockets have been fired from Lebanon into Israel since then?

[speculation]

This is the introductory section of an Iran-oriented master plan.

George W. Bush, in his weekly radio message said that "they have contributed 85$ to UN this week". Israel stresses that they have amassed at Lebanon border which is a clear implication of a preparation against Hizbollah, hence Iran. Also Mr. Bush had spoken of the "monitoring of smuggling activities" before Israel's ground operation took place.

I'll be so happy to end up as speculating bullflowers once they don't find ammunition passed within Iran's promised aid all of a sudden (!) or some Hizbollah (not Hamas) suicide bomber does not blow up a bus in Tel-Aviv in the following days (!).

Let's hope that USA does not feed on war again.

Let me end up as a conspi-wit smartass who was utterly wrong at imagining these to be happening.

I really do.

[/speculation]

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Originally Posted by Hax

@Tribesman: I've looked up what you said, and I've found this (on the Jewish library, no less!):

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um, link?

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The Second Israel v Lebanon War ended September 2006. How many rockets have been fired from Lebanon into Israel since then?

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What were the objectives of the war Kukri ?
Leaving aside that the Israeli government commision said that Israel had failed in its objectives what were those objectives .
Get back the soldiers , yes they got their bodies in exchange for prisoners , the soldiers were kidnapped to exchange for prisoners , that looks like a Hezballah win doesn't it .
To destroy the military capabilities of Hezballah , yeah right , they completely underestimated the capabilities and not only did the attack fail but it strengthened them and increased their support , while Israel was pleading that it was running out of bombs the terrorists were increasing their number of rocket launches .
To create a wedge between the government and people of Lebanon and Hezballah . wow what sort of idiot thought that bombing the hell out of the people would make them blame the terrorists more thaan they blamed Israel:dizzy2: And only in August did the western backed anti hezballah government do a complete about turn and say that hezballah not only didn't have to disarm it has the right to attack Israel .
Oh and of course , reach the river to control the land so Israel would be safe from rockets ...the reached the river in the end , but couldn't clear or secure the area to the south so the rockets continued .
So if you look at Israels objectives , look at Hezballahs objectives , realise that Israel failed on all counts and Hezballah got what they wanted then it clearly is a defeat for Israel without even considering that it was also a complete PR disaster for them .

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How many rockets have been fired from Lebanon into Israel since then?

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The last reported one was January
But oh dear the IDF are getting grief from the UN for shooting at UN bomb disposal teams...naughty Israel

Quote:

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um, link?

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Wow for someone who claims to do his own research you do appear to be very stuck .
Use your keyboard to find the US State Dept. and the Jewish Virtual Library:idea2:
Then if you get the hang of that research stuff you could expand into the multitude of Israeli based and non-Israeli based human rights groups and get lots and lots of intresting information .
Though of course you might not want to as you will learn something that shatters your illusions :yes:

Just have to share this, 'peace' demonstration where the socialist party is naturally present with Harry van Bommel who is a member of the parlement, there haven't changed that much since the thirties. What you hear; "Hamas Hamas all jews on the gas"

socialists :juggle2:

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=PLlHPP...e=channel_page

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Wow for someone who claims to do his own research you do appear to be very stuck .
Use your keyboard to find the US State Dept. and the Jewish Virtual Library:idea2:
Then if you get the hang of that research stuff you could expand into the multitude of Israeli based and non-Israeli based human rights groups and get lots and lots of intresting information .
Though of course you might not want to as you will learn something that shatters your illusions :yes:

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yeah, i found it:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...e/freedom.html

since you are so into this human rights stuff, you got info on human rights violations by arabs? interesting what you will come up with. :sweatdrop:

Quote = Kukri: "How many rockets have been fired from Lebanon into Israel since then? "

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

The last reported one was January
But oh dear the IDF are getting grief from the UN for shooting at UN bomb disposal teams...naughty Israel

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I like how you add the irrelevant second comment to cover the fact that you admit lebanon has been the source of only one rocket in the previous 12 months out of a total of 5000 plus rockets in the last couple of years.

Nice, I like how you do that.

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Originally Posted by Kukri

How many rockets have been fired from Lebanon into Israel since then?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

The last reported one was January

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Then my sources were wrong, and I stand corrected.* :bow: The answer I sought was "None".

Which then leads me to believe (were it true) that Israel is trying a Leb v Is 2 redux: soften by air, roll the tanks, deploy the infantry; quickly take out as much enemy military capability as possible; await a UN-brokered cease-fire, withdraw, and hey presto! No more rocket attacks.

They've got about 2 weeks time to carry out that plan, before the new guy moves into the White House, after which they might (might) get into trouble, starting off on the wrong foot with the new POTUS.

But, if "none" is wrong, that sorta blows my theory of Israel's intent out of the water.





*I used newspaper reports I found, not UNIFIL reports. I should've gone there.

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

But, if "none" is wrong, that sorta blows my theory of Israel's intent out of the water.

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Not really. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

I like how you add the irrelevant second comment to cover the fact that you admit lebanon has been the source of only one rocket in the previous 12 months out of a total of 5000 plus rockets in the last couple of years.

Nice, I like how you do that.

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Is no one else concerned that Israel are refusing to let international journalists in to Gaza?

God knows what atrocities the Israelis might try and commit. As far as I'm aware their army is made up of mostly young people who will be seeking personnel vendettas against the Muslim population.

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I like how you add the irrelevant second comment to cover the fact that you admit lebanon has been the source of only one rocket in the previous 12 months out of a total of 5000 plus rockets in the last couple of years.

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Who said it was only one rocket ?
BTW them 5000 rockets you talk of , were nearly all of those fired during the short war :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Tell you what Furunculus , if you think you have a point go back through all the situation reports and see exactly how many rockets were fired in the years preceeding the war .
When you come back I expect you to fully understand he irrelevance of your comment .

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Then my sources were wrong, and I stand corrected.* The answer I sought was "None".

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If you want a source for ceasefire violations then the best source is the ceasefire monitors .
Which is an interesting source as one objective of the war from the Israeli perspective was to get rid of hezballahs missiles , yet the Israelis are now claiming to the UN that the terrorists now have over 30,000 new rockets

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...712466579.html


Its good to know that not all Israelis share such militaristic attitudes.

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Originally Posted by tibilicus

Is no one else concerned that Israel are refusing to let international journalists in to Gaza?

God knows what atrocities the Israelis might try and commit. As far as I'm aware their army is made up of mostly young people who will be seeking personnel vendettas against the Muslim population.

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That's not bias. [SARCASM] I'm sure Isreal started this war just so they could knock down the population of Gaza and throw in a few ethnic cleansing photo opps for fun.[/SARCASM]

Its a war bad things happen by definition. Limiting the media does not mean that the evil Jews trying to get away with massacring 10,000 Palestinians. It's the same thing all governments try to do, control there PR and try to keep the world option from turning against them.

ignore

Thanks for "enlightening" us with that. Do remember to post any Nigerians with offers of wealth if we send our bank details, won't you?

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Click on the link at the bottom of your link and see America and Israels favourite "moderates" list of suicide attacks .
Funny isn't it , Hamas who cannot be supported because they are crazy stopped the suicide attacks in 2005 while Fatah who lost an election but tried to sieze power can be supported and armed even though in 2008 they still did the suicide thing .

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I did not understand, do you think the sources aren't valid?

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Thanks for "enlightening" us with that. Do remember to post any Nigerians with offers of wealth if we send our bank details, won't you?

~:smoking:

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it was a joke

That was noticed, however misplaced.

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Originally Posted by rasoforos

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...712466579.html


Its good to know that not all Israelis share such militaristic attitudes.

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HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA!
i cannot belive you are actually using Al-Jezeera, a well-known anti-semetic and anti-zionist media outlet!
now we know what you like to read, dont we?
thats a laugh!

here, how about this:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...88-663,00.html

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Originally Posted by Hax

That was noticed, however misplaced.

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why? isnt this thread about the conflict there? if not, i guess the last dozen pages are OT.

It's not on whether it's OT, it's just not really funny.

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i cannot belive you are actually using Al-Jezeera, a well-known anti-semetic and anti-zionist media outlet!

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Says the guy who quoted Christians for Israel.

Actually, it doesn't really matter anymore if it's biased, Israel's right anyway.

ALL HAIL ISRAEL!

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Originally Posted by Hax

It's not on whether it's OT, it's just not really funny.

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well, i thought it was.