Isn't the whole idea behind it that it's simply too horrible a thing to do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
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Isn't the whole idea behind it that it's simply too horrible a thing to do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Silos are expensive, and the Egyptians likely lack the funds to properly shield both bunker and control centre.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
So nuking it might work. Nuking it is also the proscribed response according to US doctrine.
If they did have a silo, you'd have to use a big nut to crack it, probably a nuclear one.
Besides silos there are three more methods of launching ICBM: from a sub, from a specialized train, and from a specialized truck. Which method are we talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
rvg is under the mistaken impression that my objection to torture is primarily a moral one, and that I wouldn't do it because I find it distasteful - as such he thinks I am avoiding the "hard choice".Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Also, while we're on the topic of extreme sleep deprivation - that would be torture, the same as waterboarding, you are inflicting suffering in order to get the person to talk. Conversely, shorting someones sleep cycle by a few hours so they aren't getting their 8.5 a night is not torture if it is intended to lower the detainee's level of alertness. It becomes torture when you are using it to actually make their lifer miserable.
Look - waterboarding is an advanced version of holding someone's head underwater.
The argument doesn't come "from a set of values" it comes from this never having worked.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
How can you not grasp this? From the Romans to Stalin these campaigns against dissidents have universally failed.
But that's quite simply a false statement. It does work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Example?Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Didn't work for the Romans, the Roman Catholics, the Protestants, Napoleons, the Russians, the Germans, the British, more recently it didn't work for Egypt, Tunisia, Libya or Syria.
I'm sure I've missed a few, other regimes that tried to suppress descent and collapsed.
Certainly...Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Quote:
In his memoir, former CIA Director George Tenet writes:
A published report in 2006 contended that Abu Zubaydah was mentally unstable and that the administration had overstated his importance. Baloney. Abu Zubaydah had been at the crossroads of many al-Qa'ida operations and was in position to – and did – share critical information with his interrogators. Apparently, the source of the rumor that Abu Zubaydah was unbalanced was his personal diary, in which he adopted various personas. From that shaky perch, some junior Freudians leapt to the conclusion that Zubaydah had multiple personalities. In fact, Agency psychiatrists eventually determined that in his diary he was using a sophisticated literary device to express himself. And, boy, did he express himself.
The opinion of several US Government agents appears to be that he was tortured, and that there was no reason to believe those methods would be effective in getting him to talk.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
He's been confined for a decade, at what point did he start producing reliable and useful intel? was it while the CIA was torturing, and they clearly were, or after when the FBI questioned him?
What I wanted, however, was an example of a regime employing such techniques as suppression of ideas that was effective.
You can't use the US because you haven't won anything, and by the looks of the recent protests you are losing the war of ideas badly.
I never advocated the use of torture for any purpose other than to extract valuable information from terrorists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
I'm not sure what you're talking about here...Quote:
You can't use the US because you haven't won anything...
double post
I'm talking strategically - the fact that you are known to torture Muslim detainees is part of the reason why you have mass riots across the Middle East aimed at the US specifically.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
You've spent pages and pages calling me weak, trying to get me to say I'd use torture in extremis - but your entire argument hinges on things ever getting that bad, and what I'm trying to tell you is they are getting worse for the US because of things like using torture on detainees.
You're losing the war of ideas, and your people are less safe as a result - look at the deterioration in Pakistan, a former US ally.
A part? Yes. A significant part? No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
I disagree. Force is something that the terrorists understand and fear. Reasoning with them does not work.Quote:
You've spent pages and pages calling me weak, trying to get me to say I'd use torture in extremis - but your entire argument hinges on things ever getting that bad, and what I'm trying to tell you is they are getting worse for the US because of things like using torture on detainees.
Our strengthening ties with India are behind the rift with Pakistan. The crowds in the streets mean nothing, Islamabad is just pissed that we're getting friendly with New Delhi.Quote:
You're losing the war of ideas, and your people are less safe as a result - look at the deterioration in Pakistan, a former US ally.
Yeah... how did force work out with the Irish, serbs, and Americans again?Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
The way you conduct the "War on Terror" is about 50% of the reason, the rest is the way you have treated Muslims for the last 50 years or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Fear?Quote:
I disagree. Force is something that the terrorists understand and fear. Reasoning with them does not work.
What they fear is education and women who aren't afraid of them. You are right that violence is something they understand, that's why they aren't afraid of it. It is not, however, something you understand.
No, it's about your violation of sovereign airspace and killing of Pakistani soldiers, which is why you now need a new regional ally.Quote:
Our strengthening ties with India are behind the rift with Pakistan. The crowds in the streets mean nothing, Islamabad is just pissed that we're getting friendly with New Delhi.
You'll have to elaborate on that...Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
They aren't afraid of it as long as they feel they can get away with it. Al-Qaeda leadership fears death no less than you or me. They are only good at sending others to their deaths. Life of a fellow muslim is worthless to them. Their own lives however, are precious. When our drones take their precious lives away, not only it is justice, but also a very effective way of beheading the terrorist snake.Quote:
Fear? What they fear is education and women who aren't afraid of them. You are right that violence is something they understand, that's why they aren't afraid of it.
Apparently it is the other way around.Quote:
It is not, however, something you understand.
And they're about to learn that they aren't special. India on the other hand is crucial in building a new anti-China bloc in Asia-Pacific.Quote:
No, it's about your violation of sovereign airspace and killing of Pakistani soldiers, which is why you now need a new regional ally.
The short version is that the US is (jointly) responsible for every tin-pot dictator in the Middle East since you overthrew the Iranian government the first time.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
You fear the deaths of American citizens enough to commit war crimes to prevent them - your enemies do not fear the deaths of Muslims, and they probably don't fear their own deaths as much as you fear yours.Quote:
They aren't afraid of it as long as they feel they can get away with it. Al-Qaeda leadership fears death no less than you or me. They are only good at sending others to their deaths. Life of a fellow muslim is worthless to them. Their own lives however, are precious. When our drones take their precious lives away, not only it is justice, but also a very effective way of beheading the terrorist snake.
Apparently it is the other way around.
That is what you do not understand - theses people are willing to sacrifice more than you do, even though they have less to give.
They are special - they have nukes.Quote:
And they're about to learn that they aren't special. India on the other hand is crucial in building a new anti-China bloc in Asia-Pacific.
Every? Care to name a couple? Because I can sure as hell name a few who came to power without US involvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
That makes them eager to die, so let us oblige them! (yes, I stole that phrase from M2TW)Quote:
You fear the deaths of American citizens enough to commit war crimes to prevent them - your enemies do not fear the deaths of Muslims, and they probably don't fear their own deaths as much as you fear yours.
Then they should be given the opportunity to do so.Quote:
That is what you do not understand - theses people are willing to sacrifice more than you do, even though they have less to give.
That doesn't make them special. That just means that we cannot allow the Taliban to take over the country. Beyond that, they may slowly rot for all I care.Quote:
They are special - they have nukes.
Um - Iran I, Iran II: Now with added piety, Iraq, Israel (US involved prematurely ended the British Mandate which is why Palestine is in pieces), Egypt the first time, and I think the second time... you did support Libya and Tunisia at various points, certainly you didn't oppose the overthrow of their monarchies.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
And most recently, you screwed the Afghans and bombed the Pakistanis, thereby destabalising the regime further.
I'll grant you that Syria is the Iranians and Russians, but as mentioned Iran is your fault.
That's a big enough list of sins.
Killing them serves their purpose - what doesn't serve their purpose is sending doctors to the Middle East with free drugs - killing those doctors only serves their purpose if you send soldiers after them.Quote:
That makes them eager to die, so let us oblige them! (yes, I stole that phrase from M2TW)
The anti-American movement is based primarily on hatred rather than cold political deliberations - creating more hatred strengthens the movement, creates more recruits.Quote:
Then they should be given the opportunity to do so.
Now, imagine how the average Pakistani feels reading that.Quote:
That doesn't make them special. That just means that we cannot allow the Taliban to take over the country. Beyond that, they may slowly rot for all I care.
No, aside from Iran the rest is a bunch of lies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Iraq: Baath party was a socialist movement. We most certainly did not bring it to power.
Israel: don't blame us for it, you couldn't hold on to it and got kicked out. Not our fault.
Egypt: Are you talking about that commie Nasser? We most certainly did not support him. Sadat was merely a successor, as was Mubarak.
This is weak. Just weak. If you have nothing definitive to say, it's better to just say nothing.Quote:
... you did support Libya and Tunisia at various points, certainly you didn't oppose the overthrow of their monarchies...
No worries, Afghans can have their beloved Taliban back as early as 2014. As for Pakistan, what exactly are you talking about? The border incident? That was a case of mistaken identity. Oh, and neither Afghanistan nor Pakistan are in the Middle East. Just saying.Quote:
And most recently, you screwed the Afghans and bombed the Pakistanis, thereby destabalising the regime further.
Okay doc, good luck. You want to be charitable? Go ahead, but not on my dime.Quote:
Killing them serves their purpose - what doesn't serve their purpose is sending doctors to the Middle East with free drugs - killing those doctors only serves their purpose if you send soldiers after them.
They want to hate? Let them. Hatred is a blind and stupid emotion, it can do little harm unless directed by the cool minded puppeteers. We've been eliminating puppeteers, and it's been working out well. Let the savages bathe in their hate, I do not care.Quote:
The anti-American movement is based primarily on hatred rather than cold political deliberations - creating more hatred strengthens the movement, creates more recruits.
Average Pakistani probably cannot read.Quote:
Now, imagine how the average Pakistani feels reading that.
It took 14 pages but we finally got there.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
One of the few things I hate more than terrorism is racism.
The truth isn't racist. Pakistan has 55% literacy rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
They can't, they might be capable to read, but they can't. That is just simply true, personally I think leftist outrage over facts that don't comfirm their oh so deeply felt religion is worst.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
There's nothing "leftist" about it, it's about numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
56% actually, but it doesn't matter. When you say than an average Pakistani can't read, it implies than only the select few, like the upper class, can read and normal, average people can not. That is not true as anything over 50% is a majority, thus, majority of Pakistanis are literate.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
So, if you wish to be an ass and say that Pakistanis may as well rot for all you care, about 98 million Pakistanis can read it.
In that case, if you think Pakistani's are illiterate, you are innumerate.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
As Sarmation said, anything over 50% is a majority.
Well, he is. Or perhaps more accurately: rvg is not exactly highly numerate. We saw that in theQuote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
another science breakthroughMath thread, didn't we?
Threy can rot in hell for all I care, just sayingQuote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing. You can say what you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Doesn't mean you can't be an ass when you exercise it, though.
I don't mean it, but I am saying it anyway just for the sake of it. But it's really true that most people in Pakistan can't read.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
44% or 45% of them are illiterate. That's a fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
How do you define the average Pakistani, should be the following question.
And it's a good question. The good way would be to filter out the educated elite from Islamabad, Lahore and Karachi as well as the tribal rabble from the Northwest Frontier province, then look at what's left.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Attachment: World Literacy Map.
Attachment 7242
P.S. Pakistan isn't doing too well.
Asking them if they can readQuote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Sure, I'll let you know the next time I'm in Pakistan. I'll just ask everyone, I guess.
By the way, I've always wondered. The people you meet in the Middle East and South Asia, do you tell them that you're a Buddhist (provided that the discussion ventures into religion)? If you do, what's their reaction?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Let them write it down just to be sureQuote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Just a note: I've never even been further east than Ba'albek, Lebanon.
Yeah, my uncle asked me four years ago what I believed in. I said I wasn't a Muslim, so he just shrugged and went along with his business. The people in Lebanon were like "lol okay", even the people in Ba'albek whom we knew were Hezbollah. I've had a grand total of one negative reaction in Jerusalem, from this dude who told me that me and my mother were going to hell.Quote:
he people you meet in the Middle East and South Asia, do you tell them that you're a Buddhist (provided that the discussion ventures into religion)? If you do, what's their reaction?
Are you insane Hax to meet with Hezbollah, don't do that again please?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Literacy is overrated as a statistic, this thread is proof.
Yeah, I'm crazy. I'm totally crazy.Quote:
Are you insane Hax to meet with Hezbollah, don't do that again please?
What you're apparently forgetting is that Hezbollah isn't just a militia, they're a political party with supported by many different people from many different kinds of social environments. What you're also forgetting is that some people are aligned to Hezbollah, but aren't really active about it. Such as sizeable amounts of people in cities such as Ba'albek and Saida.
To be honest, I'm more scared of the Phalange than of Hezbollah right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
You've piqued my interest. Please explain more of this concept to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Just being able to read a written language isn't anything special. It's comprehension and analysis that has real value if you want to get on your high horse and lord over the lesser cultures.
I know this because I have none of those qualities and I am lesser for it.