Speaking of Israel...

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz

It requires two visionary leaders to be able to pull it off. A proper and equal peace would benefit both Israel and Palestine.

Did you know that Israel imports people from the Philippines to work in their fields, etc, to replace the jobs the Palestinians did? If there was a proper peace, the Palestinians could end up taking that work again and Israel could lift the embargo's, allowing free and prosperous trade to flow into Palestine, which could allow the nation to build itself up and end up forming a mutual partnership of good will.

I would love such a solution to come about, but it feels that sometimes the conflict will only be 'ended' if one side wins, hence my other solution of trying to do the best for the Palestinian people as the 'losers'.

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Filipinos don't belong there, and can be legally kicked off as soon as they outlive their usefulness. Palestinians are different, and Israel has obligations whatever status they eventually settle on, whether they're citizens of a Palestinian state, refugees of a Palestinian state, citizens of an Israeli state, guests of an Israeli state, or whatever. Hence you get attempts of people like Frag to deny them any kind of status, relieving Israel of all responsibility and making them a legal anomaly simply for being. According to those arguments, Palestinians have no legal right to exist.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Filipinos don't belong there, and can be legally kicked off as soon as they outlive their usefulness. Palestinians are different, and Israel has obligations whatever status they eventually settle on, whether they're citizens of a Palestinian state, refugees of a Palestinian state, citizens of an Israeli state, guests of an Israeli state, or whatever. Hence you get attempts of people like Frag to deny them any kind of status, relieving Israel of all responsibility and making them a legal anomaly simply for being. According to those arguments, Palestinians have no legal right to exist.

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Don't put words in my my mouth, I am ok with a state for them, so is Israel. You should have a chat with so e friends who are from there, they can explain very well what Hamas really is and how their life is under their rule. I condemn a vicious regime, nothing else.

Some rough figures:

Israel's total population is 8.1 million, with 6.1 million Jews and 2.0 million Arabs.
The West Bank's population is 2.6 million, with 2.3 million Arabs and 0.3 million Jews.
Gaza's population is 1.7 million of entirely Arabs.

Now, if we consider what would happen if Israel were to integrate either or both the Palestinian territories, giving full rights as Israeli citizens to their inhabitants (probably the only viable/palatable situation should integration be agreed upon), we would get the following figures:

Option 1. Annexation of both Palestinian territories - the Israeli state would have a population of 12.4 million, of which 6.4 million would be Jews and 6.0 million would be Arabs. Such a precarious Jewish minority would never work and would be seen as a threat to the nature of Israel as a Jewish homeland. I can not see this working in anywhere near the foreseeable future.

Option 2. Annexation of the West Bank only - the Israeli state would have a population of 10.7 million, of which 6.4 million would be Jews and 4.3 million would be Arabs. I think this solution poses the same problem as above, as although the Jewish majority would be somewhat less fragile, alarm bells would be ringing given the population explosion see in the Arab population. This would make the Jewish population too nervy. Plus, Gaza would never, IMO, survive as an independent state. The only path it could take would be annexation by Egypt, and given the relationship between Hamas and Egypt's current rulership, I don't think that would create a healthier situation than the present. Annexation of just the West Bank seems the worst of all option, IMO.

Option 3. Annexation of Gaza only - the Israeli state would have a population of 9.8 million, of which 6.1 million would be Jews and 3.7 million would be Arabs. I can just about (barely) see this allowing for Israel to exist as a Jewish state with a Jewish majority that will appease its Jewish population. A further option would be to negotiate the removal of Israeli settlements in the West Bank in return for East Jerusalem being annexed along with Gaza, with a population transfer between West Bank settlers and the Arabs of East Jerusalem. This would bring 0.3 million Jews back to Israel, and transfer the 0.25 million Arabs of East Jerusalem to the autonomous West Bank area. This would give Israel a secure capital city, and rounding up, the Israeli state would have a population of 9.9 million, of which 6.4 million would be Jews, and 3.5 million would be Arabs. As well as securing a more acceptable (or rather, for us, workable) Jewish majority than with Option 2, this leaves a more viable state than Gaza, in the form of the West Bank. The West Bank could stand far better on its own that Gaza, but if it was to be integrated into a neighbouring country, it also has better option. Unlike Egypt, Jordan is essentially a Palestinian state, and many Jordanians are very sympathetic to Fatah.

Some things to mull over there. And I'm not double-checking those figures, btw!.

Keep it as it is, shoot back if shoot upon, otherwise let leave the palies be. No more settlement though. Learn how to build appartment buildings if it get too crowdy, and point a finger at hardcore jews and laugh at them really hard before ignoring them.

Alas, problem solved

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Some things to mull over there. And I'm not double-checking those figures, btw!.

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You didn't include the Palestinian refugees in Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. It is one of those 'hot points' as part of the Palestinian demands is to allow them all to return. These are also mistreated in their respective countries as well and denied citizenship.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

It alll started in 1948, I am of the 1977 variety. Palestian state, sure why not. i look forward to admiring everything they build there. But there isn't any sign of anything at all there is there.

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Modem Israel formed in 1948 but it did not start in 1948. You have to go back decades and the interesting thing is the methods that the founders used to create such a state.

Take a guess who wrote this:
"I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state. My awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain—especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state. ... If external necessity should after all compel us to assume this burden, let us bear it with tact and patience." -Wiki

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Keep it as it is, shoot back if shoot upon, otherwise let leave the palies be. No more settlement though. Learn how to build appartment buildings if it get too crowdy, and point a finger at hardcore jews and laugh at them really hard before ignoring them.

Alas, problem solved

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That's basicly the entire plan of the Likud party. Actually, only the "keep it as it is, shoot back" part. And sadly, it looks like they'll be in power for quite a while.

The great paradox is that the majority of Israelites have an unfavourable opinion of settlers and support, in theory, and independent Palestinian state. But the settlers are such a powerful minority in Israel that mainstream politicians don't dare to cross them. I refuse to buy products made by Israeli settlements on the west bank, and I encourage others to do the same. In other words, I boycott them. If I had said that in Israel, I would be prosecuted.

The Lidud party's charter explicitly rules out the possiblity of an independent Palestinian state. They act as if they're open to the possibility nowadays, but in fact Netanyahu hasn't made the slightest effort to make that happen. Construction of new settlements happens almost without interruption. If the Palestinians do something remotely annoying (like getting member status in the UN assembly - something that logically comes with self determination) settlements are errected at an increased rate. Knowing full well that in Israel, there will never be enough political will to dismantle them all.

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz

You didn't include the Palestinian refugees in Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. It is one of those 'hot points' as part of the Palestinian demands is to allow them all to return. These are also mistreated in their respective countries as well and denied citizenship.

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Consider this though. For every Palestinian that ran to those Arab states in 1948 there was a Jew who left those same Arab states and came to Israel. As far as Israel is concerned a population exchange happened.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

That's basicly the entire plan of the Likud party. Actually, only the "keep it as it is, shoot back" part. And sadly, it looks like they'll be in power for quite a while.

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Add, "find an excuse to provoke enough to start the shooting."

Netanyahu's "Hamas totally did it, even if all signs points otherwise, but won't be public until they leak" is sort of hard to explain otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Add, "find an excuse to provoke enough to start the shooting."

Netanyahu's "Hamas totally did it, even if all signs points otherwise, but won't be public until they leak" is sort of hard to explain otherwise.

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That is nonsense imho, Hamas is like the annoying schoolkid that keeps pinching you in the arm untill you hit him, than he runs of crying and hides under the teachers skirt. Israel should hit back much harder when endlessly being attacked. Just because they have the better weapons doesn't mean it isn't justified. As we say here, if you burn your ass you will just have to sit on the blisters.

Ex-Israeli soldiers speaks out

Effin horrible nation, imho.

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1. There is a heavy indoctrination in Israel, from an early age in schools, which uses the holocaust to create paranoia and fear against ‘the enemy’

2. Israeli soldiers are trained intensively for a war, whilst their actual military duties are to subdue and control Palestinians

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I don't know about the rest of it, but from what I can see, Israelis and Palestinians do seem rather similar to Spartans and Messenians. A lot of fuss about militarising a whole society for war readiness, but all of it is spent keeping down an underclass at home. Does Israel send any peacekeeping forces abroad?

Dispicable things certainly happen, won't argue with that. But if you put everything on a more bigger scale, considering everything that happened since it became an independ state. We all know what happened. The whole Arab world turned on the. They did it again in 1968(?) and they get attacked on daily bases even in peace time. Hamas fires rockets to diberatily kill civilians, they may suck at it but they try. Not that Israel is a saint, no denying that they deeply wrong the Palestinians when it comes to certain thing. But my moral principle remains, one side wants the other dead. How do you treat someone who really wants you dead?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Dispicable things certainly happen, won't argue with that. But if you put everything on a more bigger scale, considering everything that happened since it became an independ state. We all know what happened. The whole Arab world turned on the. They did it again in 1968(?) and they get attacked on daily bases even in peace time. Hamas fires rockets to diberatily kill civilians, they may suck at it but they try. Not that Israel is a saint, no denying that they deeply wrong the Palestinians when it comes to certain thing. But my moral principle remains, one side wants the other dead. How do you treat someone who really wants you dead?

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Both sides wants the other gone, Arabs are just less tech and have shorter time spans on their plans.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Both sides wants the other gone, Arabs are just less tech and have shorter time spans on their plans.

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Plenty of Arabs live in Israel, whole neighbourhoods in Tev Aviv. Without denying that Israel is perhaps a tad too brutal I don't see them as the agressor. Let's put it this way, if the Israeli wanted the Arabs dead, they would be by now. If the military balance would have been different, Hamas having a great advantage, how much of the same courtisy would you expect Israeli's get. Their (hamas) charters are pretty clear on what they want. They are also a terror for their own people, apolitical palestinians are terrified of them.

Edit, just for musings sake, who are to judge them for holding on on some territories, they gave back a lot, AFTER being attacked by just about everyone in the region. It doesn't excuse the settlement policies but they earned that land imho.

Look at us Europeans https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WFYKrNptzXw

A lot of critisism is just unfair and hypocrite.

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz

What about this?
https://i.imgur.com/TcYvhua.jpg

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You'll want the Israeli hand to be 4 times the size, and covered in armour.

Pfffft Israel warns the Pallies if an attack is comming, Hamas makes sure that everybody stays at home so as many civilians as possible get killed. Goes like this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C2vMAF9Kt18

The younger the better.

That is what it looks like. The second a call is made, flyers are dropped, or a tud lands, your neighbourhood is surrounded and people aren't allowed to leave by Hamas order troops. Hamas needs dead civilians. Israel may have a bigger army but they don't have the almost undying support of western media.

You don't have to take my word for that.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

That is nonsense imho, Hamas is like the annoying schoolkid that keeps pinching you in the arm untill you hit him, than he runs of crying and hides under the teachers skirt. Israel should hit back much harder when endlessly being attacked. Just because they have the better weapons doesn't mean it isn't justified. As we say here, if you burn your ass you will just have to sit on the blisters.

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That "nonsense" got more or less confirmed by the Israelis. The prime suspects are a bunch of hardcore militant terrorist fanatics that's a huge pain in the ass for Hamas, but powerful enough to not get denounced. They're also based in Hebron on the West bank, not Gaza.

In other news, if the radicalisation of Israel continues, this guy will be the next prime minister from Likud and he is currently the deputy speaker of Knesset.

He wrote his solution to the current situation.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ultimatum – One warning from the Prime Minister of Israel to the enemy population, in which he announces that Israel is about to attack military targets in their area and urges those who are not involved and do not wish to be harmed to leave immediately. Sinai is not far from Gaza and they can leave. This will be the limit of Israel’s humanitarian efforts. Hamas may unconditionally surrender and prevent the attack.

Attack – Attack the entire ‘target bank’ throughout Gaza with the IDF’s maximum force (and not a tiny fraction of it) with all the conventional means at its disposal. All the military and infrastructural targets will be attacked with no consideration for ‘human shields’ or ‘environmental damage’. It is enough that we are hitting exact targets and that we gave them advance warning.

Siege – Parallel to the above, a total siege on Gaza. Nothing will enter the area. Israel, however, will allow exit from Gaza. (Civilians may go to Sinai, fighters may surrender to IDF forces).

Defense – Any place from which Israel or Israel’s forces were attacked will be immediately attacked with full force and no consideration for ‘human shields’ or ‘environmental damage’.

Conquer – After the IDF completes the "softening" of the targets with its fire-power, the IDF will conquer the entire Gaza, using all the means necessary to minimize any harm to our soldiers, with no other considerations.

Elimination- The GSS and IDF will thoroughly eliminate all armed enemies from Gaza. The enemy population that is innocent of wrong-doing and separated itself from the armed terrorists will be treated in accordance with international law and will be allowed to leave. Israel will generously aid those who wish to leave.

Sovereignty – Gaza is part of our Land and we will remain there forever. Liberation of parts of our land forever is the only thing that justifies endangering our soldiers in battle to capture land. Subsequent to the elimination of terror from Gaza, it will become part of sovereign Israel and will be populated by Jews. This will also serve to ease the housing crisis in Israel. The coastal train line will be extended, as soon as possible, to reach the entire length of Gaza.

According to polls, most of the Arabs in Gaza wish to leave. Those who were not involved in anti-Israel activity will be offered a generous international emigration package. Those who choose to remain will receive permanent resident status. After a number of years of living in Israel and becoming accustomed to it, contingent on appropriate legislation in the Knesset and the authorization of the Minister of Interior, those who personally accept upon themselves Israel’s rule, substance and way of life of the Jewish State in its Land, will be offered Israeli citizenship.

Care to guess where any strategical errors will show up in his planning if implemeted? Not counting that it is ethnic cleansing already.

West-Bank is PLO territory, not Hamas. I would love to see a lot of you explain your views to my mate Mo, I think he's going to get a bit angry at you if you effortlessly can recite just about everything flying around about hamas-controlled territory. He's big.

Hamas is horrible, they terrorise everybody, not just the Israeli's. People are absolutily terrified of them. He hates the Israeli's as well mind you. Can hardly blame him for that. But he is absolutily more scared of Hamas.

You probably mean Islamic Jihad, more radical than Hamas, will crash your wedding if you play music. Don't know anything about them. Except that Hamas is scared of them as well.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Pfffft Israel warns the Pallies if an attack is comming, Hamas makes sure that everybody stays at home so as many civilians as possible get killed. Goes like this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C2vMAF9Kt18

The younger the better.

That is what it looks like. The second a call is made, flyers are dropped, or a tud lands, your neighbourhood is surrounded and people aren't allowed to leave by Hamas order troops. Hamas needs dead civilians. Israel may have a bigger army but they don't have the almost undying support of western media.

You don't have to take my word for that.

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Well, I don't think Hamas has a lot of friends here anyway.
As for the warnings, isn't it kind of logical that Hamas are warned as well and can get out of the area?
Why do they warn people and then bomb the area anyway? Are they aiming for ammunition depots or just randomly destroying peoples' houses?

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Originally Posted by Husar

Well, I don't think Hamas has a lot of friends here anyway.
As for the warnings, isn't it kind of logical that Hamas are warned as well and can get out of the area?
Why do they warn people and then bomb the area anyway? Are they aiming for ammunition depots or just randomly destroying peoples' houses?

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How could I know, never been there myself, can only say what I heard. But people are warned before an attack, they get an empty shell or flyers or a call, which means get the hell out of here. By the time they have gotten te hell out they are not allowed to leave the territory, and not because of Israel.

Disclaimer, I got this from people I know that are from there. A phonecall is always scary because you know that you may have the need to flee and fast.

Little sour addition, did the Dutch get the same courtisy when Rotterdam was absolutily destroyed? Other times I know, but still a complete city destroyed without any warning.it took Germany half an hour to kill 30.000 Dutchies probably, and a million starved later, not that it matters anymore but I like perspective in my morality and it'sa bit lost by people who critisize Israel. It's just not fair.

Food for thought, the UN condemned an attack on a school that was completily destroyed, there were 3000 hiding there, 10 casualties total. How would you you suggest you can organise that?

Yes, they only kill the weak, old people and people who can't run away fast enough. That is really heartwarming.
But if they target only military installations, why do they warn people? Doesn't that mean they warn the militants occupying the military installation? If they warn civilians in a civilian house, why are they bombing a civilian house again?

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Originally Posted by Husar

Yes, they only kill the weak, old people and people who can't run away fast enough. That is really heartwarming.
But if they target only military installations, why do they warn people? Doesn't that mean they warn the militants occupying the military installation? If they warn civilians in a civilian house, why are they bombing a civilian house again?

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Because rockets are purposily shot from high density or schools,hosptals etc. Camera's love it.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Because rockets are purposily shot from high density or schools,hosptals etc. Camera's love it.

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So they warn the people firing the rockets so that they can escape in time?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

West-Bank is PLO territory, not Hamas.

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That was the point. This military operation started on the premise that Hamas was responsible for the abduction of three Israelis on the west bank. It now looks like Hamas had very little, or nothing, to do with it.

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Originally Posted by Husar

So they warn the people firing the rockets so that they can escape in time?

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Basicly yes

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

That was the point. This military operation started on the premise that Hamas was responsible for the abduction of three Israelis on the west bank. It now looks like Hamas had very little, or nothing, to do with it.

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I've been watching a lot of re-broadcast episodes of "criminal minds" -- a fictionalized version of our FBI serial killer hunter teams.

It struck me that a serial killer could have a grand old time in that region of the world -- hunting humans without ever worrying about getting caught since it could always be made to look like one splinter group or another did the killings. Then you get to watch a show after you've done your own killing.

How much violent crime over there is solved and how much is labeled "terrorism" and used as an excuse....even when it was just simple crime?

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Originally Posted by Ironside

*Those who were not involved in anti-Israel activity will be offered a generous international emigration package. Those who choose to remain will receive permanent resident status. After a number of years of living in Israel and becoming accustomed to it, contingent on appropriate legislation in the Knesset and the authorization of the Minister of Interior, those who personally accept upon themselves Israel’s rule, substance and way of life of the Jewish State in its Land, will be offered Israeli citizenship..

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That point is close to what I suggested but I feel their version of 'generous' and my version of 'generous' are radically different. Plus my humanitarian efforts go far beyond simple packages too.

Well that was fast, they actually managed to not shoot rockets for 24 hours. But sudden jihad syndrome is just too strong again, they couldn't control it once again. The need to kill them wherever they find them is too strong for people of the religion of peace.

Alahu Akhbar

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

I've been watching a lot of re-broadcast episodes of "criminal minds" -- a fictionalized version of our FBI serial killer hunter teams.

It struck me that a serial killer could have a grand old time in that region of the world -- hunting humans without ever worrying about getting caught since it could always be made to look like one splinter group or another did the killings. Then you get to watch a show after you've done your own killing.

How much violent crime over there is solved and how much is labeled "terrorism" and used as an excuse....even when it was just simple crime?

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This is a common theme in any warzone.

On the flipside, in the event that you do get caught, you will probably be shot immediately as an enemy combatant.

Also, criminal minds is a god-awful show. Stop watching it.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Well that was fast, they actually managed to not shoot rockets for 24 hours. But sudden jihad syndrome is just too strong again, they couldn't control it once again. The need to kill them wherever they find them is too strong for people of the religion of peace.

Alahu Akhbar

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Kill? How many have they killed, exactly?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Kill? How many have they killed, exactly?

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For a lack of trying or for not being very good at it? Doesn't change the simple fact that one side wants the other dead, and that they will never stop trying. It's in their charters and their holy book. They must kill them wherever they find them. There isn't anything Arabs are good at so they are also bad at killing

Rough estimation that was made, without the dome 30.000 Israeli casualties. I wonder what would be on the counter if it wasn't for the wall and checkpoints.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

For a lack of trying or for not being very good at it? Doesn't change the simple fact that one side wants the other dead, and that they will never stop trying. It's in their charters and their holy book. They must kill them wherever they find them. There isn't anything Arabs are good at so they are also bad at killing

Rough estimation that was made, without the dome 30.000 Israeli casualties. I wonder what would be on the counter if it wasn't for the wall and checkpoints.

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Doesn't change the fact that they do not kill very much.

Also, that "estimation" is retarded; rockets flew into Israel long before they created the dome(it was a reaction), and it was nowhere near 30.000. Try 30. To back up how retarded your claimed estimation is, have a look at the stats for the Iron Dome. Around a third of the missiles get intercepted. So, they kill 3 people with 1000 rockets, and somehow they will manage to kill 29.997 with another 500 missiles?

Lrn2math.

EDIT: And if you want examples of a holy book telling people to kill them all, have a look at the Israeli religious right.

I didn't make the estimation, just post that was made. But there is an absolute certainty of the amount of jewish Israeli's that would get killed if Hamas got their way, all.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I didn't make the estimation, just post that was made.

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...And you repeated it without thinking it through and noticing how utterly retarded that estimation is.

If we take the current death toll and estimate that the missiles intercepted by the Iron Dome will kill 10 times more than the ones who get through, we end up at roughly 3 million rockets required to kill those 30.000 Israelis. Have fun.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

But there is an absolute certainty of the amount of jewish Israeli's that would get killed if Hamas got their way, all.

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Ditto for the Israeli religious right.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Ditto for the Israeli religious right.

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I suppose he also appreciates the way "we" cleaned the Warsaw ghetto, effective and goal-driven, just how he likes it.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I suppose he also appreciates the way "we" cleaned the Warsaw ghetto, effective and goal-driven, just how he likes it.

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Did I squeeze the allready painfull ball, sorry I would have gone for the other one if I knew, that stuff hurts.

Israel wants peace, Hamas wants war. Doesn't get any simpler. Must kinda hurt if your superior religion fails again again and again, even if 5 countries attack at once. Arabs and pride you see, bit humiliating to be beaten over and over again by 'apes and pigs'.

Allahuh not by far

What you describe is more the ISIS way, you know arab spring and all that, that stuff gutmensch doesn't want to be bothered anymore because they lost interest after being proved wrong as usual.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I suppose he also appreciates the way "we" cleaned the Warsaw ghetto, effective and goal-driven, just how he likes it.

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His strategy for Gaza is a mixture of our Boer concentration strategy and your Madagascar strategy. Concentrate the civilians in a defined area so everyone outside that area can be assumed to be a combatant, then deport them to somewhere else.

Looking at his wiki entry, I see this gem of a quote: "(Jonathan) Pollard is a Jew who saved the Israelis from American treachery."

I'm also happy to see that this gentleman is banned from entering the UK.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Did I squeeze the allready painfull ball, sorry I would have gone for the other one if I knew, that stuff hurts.

Israel wants peace, Hamas wants war. Doesn't get any simpler. Must kinda hurt if your superior religion fails again again and again, even if 5 countries attack at once. Arabs and pride you see, bit humiliating to be beaten over and over again by 'apes and pigs'.

Allahuh not by far

What you describe is more the ISIS way, you know arab spring and all that, that stuff gutmensch doesn't want to be bothered anymore because they lost interest after being proved wrong as usual.

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Do you know anything about this guy Feiglin that they're talking about? Do you know that his definition of peace is the conquest of Gaza and deportation of its current inhabitants so they can be replaced by Israelis?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Did I squeeze the allready painfull ball, sorry I would have gone for the other one if I knew, that stuff hurts.

Israel wants peace, Hamas wants war. Doesn't get any simpler. Must kinda hurt if your superior religion fails again again and again, even if 5 countries attack at once. Arabs and pride you see, bit humiliating to be beaten over and over again by 'apes and pigs'.

Allahuh not by far

What you describe is more the ISIS way, you know arab spring and all that, that stuff gutmensch doesn't want to be bothered anymore because they lost interest after being proved wrong as usual.

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It would help if you actually read what you comment on.

And I'm aware that my comparison is not even an 80% fit, doesn't change the fact that proposing to just shoot the human shields is not nice and comes rather close.

I have no idea what you mean with the ISIS comparison, where was Gutmensch proven wrong when he said the American invasion would fail?

What are the other 20% for in case it's 80. Going to be a hard equation to make if you want to accuse me of backing ethnic cleaning like was done in Warshaw against the jews and compare that to what Israel does to the Palestinians. Bit of a difference between collateral and intentional damage. One of the parties has absolutily no problem with the latter. Looks so nice on tv, journalists gob it up faster than my two new kittens a can of tuna.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

What are the other 20% for in case it's 80. Going to be a hard equation to make if you want to accuse me of backing ethnic cleaning like was done in Warshaw against the jews and compare that to what Israel does to the Palestinians. Bit of a difference between collateral and intentional damage. One of the parties has absolutily no difference with the latter.

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That would be Moshe Feiglin, then. As Husar said, it would help a lot if you actually read the stuff you're replying to.

Feiglin is advocating clearing the Gaza strip of Arabs and repopulating the area with Jews. He defines all inhabitants on Gaza as enemy soldiers, and sees no reason not to kill them all. His logic is that since they voted in Hamas, everyone is a target. Hilariously, by that token there is no need at all to distinguish between Israeli citizens and Israeli soldiers.

There is no doubt that Hamas is a loony bunch of genocidal maniacs. There is no doubt that the Israeli right is a loony bunch of genocidal maniacs.

Why you choose to focus on one of those and ignore the other, is curious.


Finally, Hamas launches their missiles knowing they will not kill anyone. IDF launches their missiles knowing they will kill someone.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I have no idea what you mean with the ISIS comparison, where was Gutmensch proven wrong when he said the American invasion would fail?

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Conformational Bias using a strawman.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

That would be Moshe Feiglin, then. As Husar said, it would help a lot if you actually read the stuff you're replying to.

Feiglin is advocating clearing the Gaza strip of Arabs and repopulating the area with Jews. He defines all inhabitants on Gaza as enemy soldiers, and sees no reason not to kill them all. His logic is that since they voted in Hamas, everyone is a target. Hilariously, by that token there is no need at all to distinguish between Israeli citizens and Israeli soldiers.

There is no doubt that Hamas is a loony bunch of genocidal maniacs. There is no doubt that the Israeli right is a loony bunch of genocidal maniacs.

Why you choose to focus on one of those and ignore the other, is curious.


Finally, Hamas launches their missiles knowing they will not kill anyone. IDF launches their missiles knowing they will kill someone.

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Yeah, and Hamas makes sure people get killed, that's why they launch them from area's where people are going to get killed, the more the better. Their greatest allies are sure to be there with a camara for juicy shots. In the meantime ISIS murdered more people in a few days than got killed since Israel's founding. But that isn't all that interesting, because not Israel. How people explain that for themselves I don't understand but I am not good at leftist logic, just don't see it.

And sure there are Israeli idiots. They aren't all that liked but that is changing really fast, the violence bred a bit of a new generation.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Yeah, and Hamas makes sure people get killed, that's why they launch them from area's where people are going to get killed, the more the better. Their greatest allies are sure to be there with a camara for juicy shots. In the meantime ISIS murdered more people in a few days than got killed since Israel's founding. But that isn't all that interesting, because not Israel. How people explain that for themselves I don't understand but I am not good at leftist logic, just don't see it.

And sure there are Israeli idiots. They aren't all that liked but that is changing really fast, the violence bred a bit of a new generation.

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"They aren't all that liked"? Are you aware that Feiglin is essentially #2 in the ruling party there?

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

"They aren't all that liked"? Are you aware that Feiglin is essentially #2 in the ruling party there?

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Yeah there are nutjobs yeah. Wonder what drove them nuts. No I don't really. They alreadry were, but becomming an increasingly good proposel for those that really don't want to have to do anything with them. Who's fault is that really.

i know knothing of Feiglin by the way, never heard of them

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Yeah there are nutjobs yeah. Wonder what drove them nuts. No I don't really. They alreadry were, but becomming an increasingly good proposel for those that really don't want to have to do anything with them. Who's fault is that really.

i know knothing of Feiglin by the way, never heard of them

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If you know nothing of Feiglin, why didn't you read up on him before responding to those who were commenting on him? Is it your habit to assume that anyone who hates Palestinians must therefore be a good person?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Yeah there are nutjobs yeah. Wonder what drove them nuts. No I don't really. They alreadry were, but becomming an increasingly good proposel for those that really don't want to have to do anything with them. Who's fault is that really.

i know knothing of Feiglin by the way, never heard of them

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Funny how you do not extend the same kind of goodwill towards the Palestinians that you do towards the Israeli's. You excuse Israeli nutjobs, while you denounce all palestinians because of their nutjobs.

As for the suggestion that "the left" only cares about Israel; when was the last time you went to a free west-Sahara rally? I've been to several, and I see plenty of my fellow lefties there. I see basically noone from the right there. Ditto for Sri Lanka, the Congo, Sudan, Kurdistan, etc. Tibet is an exception, maybe because of evil commies.

It really is one of the worst "arguments" of all. It fails on every level.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

If you know nothing of Feiglin, why didn't you read up on him before responding to those who were commenting on him? Is it your habit to assume that anyone who hates Palestinians must therefore be a good person?

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It's a lot easier to have strong opinions if you don't have any knowledge.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

It's a lot easier to have strong opinions if you don't have any knowledge.

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For Frag's information, Feiglin thinks Christians are even worse than Muslims.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Funny how you do not extend the same kind of goodwill towards the Palestinians that you do towards the Israeli's. You excuse Israeli nutjobs, while you denounce all palestinians because of their nutjobs.

As for the suggestion that "the left" only cares about Israel; when was the last time you went to a free west-Sahara rally? I've been to several, and I see plenty of my fellow lefties there. I see basically noone from the right there. Ditto for Sri Lanka, the Congo, Sudan, Kurdistan, etc. Tibet is an exception, maybe because of evil commies.

It really is one of the worst "arguments" of all. It fails on every level.

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I don't denounce them, I just put the blame somewhere else without excusing Israel from being somewhat harsh.

Guess where, I probably don't have to say it here you know me well enough

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

For Frag's information, Feiglin thinks Christians are even worse than Muslims.

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So what he is right I grew up in the bible belt, I would have loved a wall and checkpoints at the time

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I don't denounce them, I just put the blame somewhere else without excusing Israel from being somewhat harsh.

Guess where, I probably don't have to say it here you know me well enough

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....which is exactly my point, you excuse one bunch of loonies who are doing exactly the same as the ones you hate.

All without even knowing who or what they are. Ignorance certainly is bliss.

Blinded by hatred.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

....which is exactly my point, you excuse one bunch of loonies who are doing exactly the same as the ones you hate.

All without even knowing who or what they are. Ignorance certainly is bliss.

Blinded by hatred.

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I know a few really, I would love to see how you explain yourself to them. You know nothing.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I know a few really, I would love to see how you explain yourself to them. You know nothing.

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Haha, you claimed just a few posts ago that you had no idea who Moshe Feiglin is.

And I'm the one who knows nothing.... :dizzy2:

Further, I am quite puzzled by what exactly I am supposed to explain to "them".

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Originally Posted by Idaho

This is a standard Israeli trick. They attack, kill hundreds, offer a "ceasefire" which has some totally unacceptable conditions - then make a big fuss when this ceasefire is rejected.

Hundreds of Palestinians dead after collective punishment attacks from state of the art military. Zero Israeli dead after random crude rocket attacks from fringe group. This is not an even fight.

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Seriously? Why would you enter a fair fight when the very existence of the nation people have bled and died for is at risk?

While I don't advocate the bombing of civilians I do defend their right to defend themselves from the thousands of rockets fired their way. Oh, and before we criticize too much, how many civvies dies in Afghanistan and Iraq?

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Originally Posted by Ja'chyra

Seriously? Why would you enter a fair fight when the very existence of the nation people have bled and died for is at risk?

While I don't advocate the bombing of civilians I do defend their right to defend themselves from the thousands of rockets fired their way. Oh, and before we criticize too much, how many civvies dies in Afghanistan and Iraq?

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Erm, the existence of Israel isn't at risk. Nothing the Palestinians can do can put the existence of Israel at risk, except maybe pushing for a one state solution and then breeding like rabbits. Individual Israelis may be at risk, but not the Israeli nation. When those bombers blew up 3 tube trains and a bus in 2005, commuters were at risk, but not the British nation, nor even the city of London. I took the tube to St John's Wood for the Lord's Test a few days after that, and I never felt threatened.

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Originally Posted by Ja'chyra

how many civvies dies in Afghanistan and Iraq?

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Way too many, which is why I have opposed those wars from the very beginning.

NATO is critized every single day. Don't act like we live in a fantasy world where Israel is demonized and NATO glorified.

How many have died to terrorism? Can anyone even quote he worst attack in Israel/Palistine
How many as collatoral damage?

I've said it before, there are much worse things then terrorism and police states is one of them.

Look at the amount of people who disappeared in the South American dictatorships, Apartheid South Africa and a quasi occupied Palistine.

Also, for a bona fide threat to the existence of a nation, see one suggested strategy for Gaza. Conquer with the army, expel its current inhabitants, replace with Israelis, and incorporate the territory into Israel. Now that is a bona fide threat to a nation, as opposed to individual members or clusters of people in that nation. And that suggestion was made by the presumed deputy to Israel's current ruling party (he was the only challenger to Netanyahu as Likud leader to get a significant number of votes). And should he ever lead an Israeli government, he'd be in a position to make that suggestion a reality, unlike the pipedreams of any Palestinian leaders.

Other wonderful suggestions of Mr. Feiglin: an upper house that would be open only to Jews. Even the ultra-conservative Wellington forced the King to open up the franchise and government to faiths other than the dominant one, way back in the early 19th century. Also, cut military expenditure (by 30% according to Mr. Feiglin's wonderful calculations) by abandoning non-lethal weaponry like rubber bullets against protestors (read: Palestinians), and use live ammunition instead. The presumed implication is that this will reduce their population as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ja'chyra

Seriously? Why would you enter a fair fight when the very existence of the nation people have bled and died for is at risk?

While I don't advocate the bombing of civilians I do defend their right to defend themselves from the thousands of rockets fired their way. Oh, and before we criticize too much, how many civvies dies in Afghanistan and Iraq?

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Most of the civilian casualties Afghanistan and in Iraq died at the hands of the insurgents, so you'll have to take that into account first. Honestly, I have no idea if the armed forces of other countries are more effective at preventing civilian deaths.

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I think that some people in this thread treat the Gazan rockets too lightly. It's not about the raw casualty numbers they generate (allthough it would have been a lot higher without the Iron Dome) but the fact that they disrupt the daily life of thousands of Israelis. Fortunately for them, the Israeli are well prepared in both seeking shelter and treating their wounded.

That said, from a cost/benefit point of view, the rockets are a laughably ineffective weapon, as are the tunnels that they dig. You could easily compare them with the V-2 missiles that Nazi Germany used (comparing the weapons and their deployment - not the guys using them). They were horribly expensive and didn't accomplish anything, except disrupting the lives of civilians in and around London and making a slight dent in morale.

Pelting Israel with mortars and rockets, and occasionally killing two or three people with a tunnel that costs $500.000 before it's taken down, is completely irrational. It can only be explained by the fact that Hamas has absolutely no other way to fight Israel. Some people say that the Gazans feel compelled to fight Israel because they're islamists. I think the far, far more important reason is that the Palestinians are an opressed people. And they have no "civilized" means to fight back.

Israel's use of force does seem, at first sight, excessive to me this time. But ultimately I don't question their right to respond with military force to terrorist attacks, even if it does result in civilian casualties. They're forced to defend themselves. My problem is that they're to a large degree responsible for this situation in which they're forced to defend themselves. People who lay the blame entirely on Hamas should take into account that Fatah has been extremely cooperative with Israel in the last decade and it has gotten them nowhere, meanwhile Israel continues to colonize the west bank.

I think we should stop calling it colonizing which assumes that the invader also takes care of the locals see British Empire.

Settling also assumes that the land is part of Israel and not in a neighboring state.

I'm not sure what to call it but in light of Ukraine I would rename the settlers micro-annexation if trying to be PC. Outright invasion is what it actually is. So does a people have the right to spontaneously defend itself to a country invading its land?

Surely the Palestinians have as much right to eject invaders as Israel does.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

I think we should stop calling it colonizing which assumes that the invader also takes care of the locals see British Empire.

Settling also assumes that the land is part of Israel and not in a neighboring state.

I'm not sure what to call it but in light of Ukraine I would rename the settlers micro-annexation if trying to be PC. Outright invasion is what it actually is. So does a people have the right to spontaneously defend itself to a country invading its land?

Surely the Palestinians have as much right to eject invaders as Israel does.

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It's Old Testament-style conquest. Take over an area using force, expel or exterminate the current population, destroy their culture, and replace with one's own people and culture. See the Canaanites for an example of how to deal with an existing settlement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Erm, the existence of Israel isn't at risk. Nothing the Palestinians can do can put the existence of Israel at risk, except maybe pushing for a one state solution and then breeding like rabbits. Individual Israelis may be at risk, but not the Israeli nation. When those bombers blew up 3 tube trains and a bus in 2005, commuters were at risk, but not the British nation, nor even the city of London. I took the tube to St John's Wood for the Lord's Test a few days after that, and I never felt threatened.

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Their nation is at risk because to show any weakness would be to see itself wiped out from it's neighbours, Israel is in the unenviable position of having to be strong at all times and that may influence the severity of it's reprisals. Not saying it's right just it's something to be considered.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Way too many, which is why I have opposed those wars from the very beginning.

NATO is critized every single day. Don't act like we live in a fantasy world where Israel is demonized and NATO glorified.

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Still reading your own obscure meanings into other peoples posts I see

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Originally Posted by Ja'chyra

Their nation is at risk because to show any weakness would be to see itself wiped out from it's neighbours, Israel is in the unenviable position of having to be strong at all times and that may influence the severity of it's reprisals. Not saying it's right just it's something to be considered.

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So what do you think of Moshe Feiglin's proposal for what to do with Gaza? Does that count as a threat to a nation's existence in your eyes? Or doesn't it count because it's Israel doing the threatening and Arabs being threatened? Let me remind you of his proposal.

1. Conquer Gaza using the IDF.
2. Expel all current inhabitants.
3. Level the place.
4. Rebuild and repopulate with Israelis.
5. Incorporate Gaza into a larger Israel.

Let me also remind you that Feiglin, in his last challenge against Netanyahu for leadership of the Likud party (and thus the Israeli government) was the only challenger to receive significant numbers of votes, effectively making him the no.2 in that party.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

It's Old Testament-style conquest. Take over an area using force, expel or exterminate the current population, destroy their culture, and replace with one's own people and culture. See the Canaanites for an example of how to deal with an existing settlement.

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The original Israelis are probably descendents of Canaanites.

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Originally Posted by Ja'chyra

Still reading your own obscure meanings into other peoples posts I see

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I may be reading too much into things, but it's definitely not obscure. In all honesty, it's a rare day when a new opinion comes around in an Israeli/Palestine-debate. It's usually just page after page of the same ol' talking points. Then we move to a different site and have the exact same debate all over again. Not saying that isn't fun or worthwhile...

Anyway, I took your comment to refer to a supposed unfair treatment of Israel. The argument goes that we ignore the evils done by, for example, NATO, while Israel is demonized for doing the same. If this is not the argument you were trying to make, could you care to elaborate on your point?

Wouldn't the defending yourself argument go back to the very beginning of the conflict?

After all a few years into any conflict the argument can be made that the aggressor is defending himself against the defenders counter attacks...

How far back should we go?

Well, hasn't the violence pretty much existed between the two sides since the mass Jewish immigration and the founding of Israel... always thought of that as the firing of the first shot myself. Although there have been quiet periods and noisy ones the situation has pretty much existed since then...

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Haha, you claimed just a few posts ago that you had no idea who Moshe Feiglin is.

And I'm the one who knows nothing.... :dizzy2:

Further, I am quite puzzled by what exactly I am supposed to explain to "them".

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Them are my Palestinian buddies who actually know how life is in Gaza and what scumbags really Hamas are.

Yeah, I have Palestinian friends, they hate Israel but hate Hamas more, confusing isn't it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Them are my Palestinian buddies who actually know how life is in Gaza and what scumbags really Hamas are.

Yeah, I have Palestinian friends, they hate Israel but hate Hamas more, confusing isn't it.

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Why would that be confusing...?

And what I was wondering was what I was supposed to explain.


And honestly, given the number of palestinian refugees, do you believe you're the only one who knows a palestinian...?

I believe I have precious little company when it comes to that yes.

Palestine supporters are lefties without a cause mostly. Bored rich kids.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I believe I have precious little company when it comes to that yes.

Palestine supporters are lefties without a cause mostly. Bored rich kids.

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Radical leftie organizations always contain Palestinians. And Colombians. An Iranian or two. Maybe a Cuban. PLO are commies, remember?

I've been a part of several such organizations.

Anyway, what am I supposed to explain?

Everything you say for starters, I strongly doubt you will be able to expand on it, they will be pretty angry at that point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Everything you say for starters, I strongly doubt you will be able to expand on it, they will be pretty angry at that point.

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....And just what am I saying?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

....And just what am I saying?

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More what you are doing, always trying to relevate. Not that that isn't a bad thing per sé, but I wouldn't expect any patience for it from people who lived under Hamas rule. The best that can happen is that they say that you don't know what you are talking about. Hamas is just a sick organisation. You can also say something by saying by ommision. Not directly at you but speaking in ommisions is what is just about the rule with people who will always solemny declare that they condemn all violence. They never actually do it though. That Hamas is a bigger terror to the Palestinians doesn't matter, light another pipe. Hamas breaks another peace treaty, absolute silence. Israel strikes back, nothing that could comfort their sorrow, including demonstrations of muslims and gutmensch(who condemn all violence, what a joke) and attacks on jews living in Europe by imported people with culture. Nothing to see here, move along.

Nothing at all of any value, just vague insinuations of something or other.

I am not surprised, nor impressed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Them are my Palestinian buddies who actually know how life is in Gaza and what scumbags really Hamas are.

Yeah, I have Palestinian friends, they hate Israel but hate Hamas more, confusing isn't it.

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Most people are nice, some are nicer then others. Most governments suck, some much worse then others.

So not really surprising that Palestinians don't like Hamas. Problem is it isn't a stable democracy, it hasn't had time to mature to such and it isn't in the interests of the hardliner politicians on either side for that to happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Nothing at all of any value, just vague insinuations of something or other.

I am not surprised, nor impressed.

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Absolutily an insinuation, you can probably read between the lines what the insinuation is, but it's not directly at you personally.