Ukraine-in-a-thread

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

...and I thus flame them more, has absolutely nothing to do with my clear line of reasoning...

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What reasoning? The drivel that you post is largely just pure irrational hatred.

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Originally Posted by rvg

What reasoning? The drivel that you post is largely just pure irrational hatred.

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After 11/9 and Iraq and Afghanistan... it's quite logic resembling the general US foreign policy to frothing dogs.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

You make pretty shallow attacks on the character of our people all the time Kad. You also base a lot of your reasoning on an inaccurate view of the way our government and policy making bodies work. It all comes off as purely shallow anti American vitriol, as though you base your opinion of an entire nation on the shallowest of investigations.

Good for a laugh though. I'll do no retracting, the forum is littered with examples of your drivel. Keep doing what you do man. :yes:

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That I do.

Heck, I read reports stating that the majority of members of your then biggest political party still several years after the Iraq war believed WMD's to have been found there.

Your school system is failing and your general population is anti-intellectual.

I never said every USAnian is, I say that enough are to dictate your international politics. And that quite honestly SCARES me.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

All true - but the Black Sea is the only way Russia can get ships into the Med, unless it sales around the entire Atlantic Coast and runs the Pillars of Heracles, all of which makes fighting through the Dardenelles look like a picnic.

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Russia has plenty land on the black sea so this Crimea port thingy is a red herring.

Attachment 12537

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

Russia has plenty land on the black sea so this Crimea port thingy is a red herring.

Attachment 12537

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Much like the Dutch ports are a Red Herring for EU imports of commerce?

No need for the EU to defend them, we have plenty of coastal lands?

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

After 11/9 and Iraq and Afghanistan... it's quite logic resembling the general US populace to frothing dogs.

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Riiight... my ignore list needs more specimens. Bye, Kad.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

You are again reasoning from a western point of view. The difference in point of view is partly to blame for the entire crisis. It isn't about power projection, it's about limiting western power projection on Russia's Black Sea coast. Like HT said:



Russia doesn't have a blue water navy. They don't plan to build one and they couldn't afford one. Russian fleet serves one purpose and one purpose only - protecting Russian coastline. They can't compete in the Med. In the Black Sea however, when aided by land defense, the Black Sea fleet is useful. Past Bosphorus and Dardanelles, that fleet is floating scrap iron.

Showing off? Muscle flexing? Sabre rattling? Random land grabs? Empire building? Dreams of world domination? I don't know which one of these thesis is more ludicrous.

Russian mindset is completely different - their prime point of concern is protection again hypothetical invasion coming from the west. Everything else is of secondary concern. Until western politicians figure that out, we're gonna have more crisis like this one. And this isn't Putin. This is Russia. This is indoctrinated into their military and political thought. Removing Putin won't change that.

If I'm allowed to quote Einstein - We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.

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Yeah - I get that - but what I also get is that Putin sees parts of other countries as occupied Russian land, and the Crimea episode indicates he's not above using force to "restore" that land to Mother Russia - up to an including potentially the entire Soviet Union.

Despite me posting the translation of his speech in English, you seem blind to that fact.

For a Russian "containment" means that the other "Great Powers" are trying to limit Russia's operation within what Russia sees as its legitimate sphere of control.

We want everybody to be a European democracy just for the sake of it, including Russia, but Russia sees that prospect as an existential threat.

And, for the moment Russia = Putin, in so far as decision making goes.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

After 11/9 and Iraq and Afghanistan... it's quite logic resembling the general US populace to frothing dogs.

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The most subtle of trolls. I love it, man.

On one hand, Kad is a bozo. On the other, to be made a target of rvg's petulance is no mark of shame.

/flame war

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

Russia has plenty land on the black sea so this Crimea port thingy is a red herring.

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Why didn't Ukraine move its fleet away before Russia took it over? They have plenty of coastline left.

Yeah, let's continue with more guesswork.

http://www.stripes.com/news/analysts...rests-1.270904

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Originally Posted by article

Although Russia continues to construct a navy base in its own territory in Novorossisk, near Sochi, analysts agree that Sevastopol remains the navy’s preferred base in the Black Sea region because of its size, location and infrastructure.

“It’s hard to speculate on motivations, but it may be that one of the main reasons for the (events) in Crimea was, legitimately or not, they thought they might lose the base in Sevastopol,” said Dmitry Gorenburg, who researches Russian military reform at the CNA Corporation, an analysis group.

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Also no mention of nuclear submarines as that guy in Germany claimed. Oh yeah, he was pro-Putin and I actually noticed that some of his "facts" were off. Again, there is propaganda and baseless support on both sides IMO. "He's a Hitler and wants more Lebensraum" is not a very convincing argument either.

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Originally Posted by article

The fleet may also need to grow to support a new Mediterranean task force created by Russia last year, noted Fedyszyn, a move that comes as the U.S. increases its own Mediterranean presence with four destroyers in Spain.

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Quite honestly, if it were the other way around I guess it would be a response to "Russian aggression" but I suppose the US placing more ships in the Mediterranean is not about aggression, just fishing destroyers bringing freedom to plankton and jellyfish. I'm not convinced that placing more NATO allies, nukes, missile shields and armed forces all around Russia will make Russia any less paranoid.

When Russia wanted to station nukes on Cuba people like to call it Russian aggression and tend to forget that this was in response to the USA stationing nukes in Turkey, which was incidentally right across from Russia and no more or less aggressive than Russian nukes on Cuba. Additionally they were meant to prevent further attempts of the US to invade Cuba, sounds rather defnsive rather than aggressive. There are usually two sides to a fight and if one wants to solve the conflict it can help to look at the issue from both sides.

If everybody agrees and noone dares to counter-argue, you end up with groupthink, it's not nice.

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Originally Posted by wikipedia

Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people, in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative viewpoints, by actively suppressing dissenting viewpoints, and by isolating themselves from outside influences.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

The most subtle of trolls. I love it, man.

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Cheers.

I see it more as "educating" than "trolling". But that's just me, Bozo :clown:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Cheers.

I see it more as "educating" than "trolling". But that's just me, Bozo :clown:

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Lol, do people in European countries really call it 11/9? Considering it was an American event, and is called the "September 11th attacks", I don't see why you would call it 11/9 other than to be frustrating to USAnians.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Cheers.

I see it more as "educating" than "trolling". But that's just me, Bozo :clown:

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This fellow seems about as coherent as that Kurdish dude. Why do you all encourage his childish and laughable views? He is straight out of a European, I hate the USA cookie cutter. On every thread I've seen he has posted nothing which but inane drivel that weakens the discourse and pisses people off. But I guess he is simply a superior life form with his Nordic blood so I guess we are all just lucky to be blessed by his presence.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Lol, do people in European countries really call it 11/9? Considering it was an American event, and is called the "September 11th attacks", I don't see why you would call it 11/9 other than to be frustrating to USAnians.

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You are completely right.

Still though, if you are to speak English, learn to do it properly :clown:

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Originally Posted by Flavius Aetius

This fellow seems about as coherent as that Kurdish dude. Why do you all encourage his childish and laughable views? He is straight out of a European, I hate the USA cookie cutter. On every thread I've seen you have posted nothing that contributes to conversation but inane drivel that weakens the discourse and pisses people off. But you are simply a superior life form with your nordic blood so I guess we are all just lucky to be blessed by your presence.

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NAILED IT!!

I bow to your wisdom :bow:

EDIT: That note from a new member is actually worth a better response.

I (very) occasionally contribute to these boards as well. When I don't, I tell hypocrites what idiots they are. Beating a dead horse, I know...

Most people around here has seen enough of me not to judge my behavior from some Saturday night postings at local time 3am and onwards.

Not that I don't make sense, not that I am wrong. Just that I tend to have very limited tolerance for stupidity and I don't always explain my points to the fullest. Luckily, plenty of other intelligent people around to enhance the points I drunkenly point my fingers at. So I still contribute, in my very own way ~:smoking:

EVERYONE POSTS DRUNK, IT'S THE ONLY WAY WE CAN STAND EACH OTHER

This is what I call a sober and measured discussion.

“Protect Russia from whom?” From you, or people who think like you, who considered Russia like an enemy, people who are still in the Cold War. I read here a lot of texts telling me that Russia is our enemy, and they look surprise if Russia looks at us as enemy.
Al these countries, in the region, fought each other’s for centuries. And this didn’t stop long time ago, but around 30 years ago, one was still occupying others. Then, the former occupied don’t like very much the former occupier, some even hate him. So the Former Occupier, knowing what they think, has reasons to believe they might take revenge as soon as they can. And what the Former occupier is seeing is exactly this. More of the Former Occupied making alliances with Countries that openly say your country is an enemy (note, not a former enemy, an actual enemy).

Then, when Russia, having signed an agreement with a legitimate Government of Ukraine sees openly hostile forces over-taking power with “kill the Russian” propaganda, and running in the arms of an hostile coalition, which has proved several time to be an offensive weapon used to enforced Western (so anti-Russian) Politic, what the Russians should have thought?

“This mindset has been brought on not by some genetic trait or cultural upbringing, but by a dozen years of Putin's propaganda machine. Nothing more.” And your? What did it for yours?

“I'm also Russian, and as such I can tell that your understanding of Russia, Russians and Putin leaves much to be desired.” Laughable! I am French and there is one think I don’t pretend is to understand or speak for all French. When you get 3 French speaking politic you’ve got 5 opinions… But YOU understand (how many 380 million?) all Russians. And I really, but really, don't understand the mindset of this F***** actual French President, liar, traitor, coward and one of the worst piece of garbage never elected in a country (this including Sarkozy).

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Originally Posted by Brenus

(how many 380 million?)

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Only 143,533,000, Russia alone has often seemed overrated to me in terms of its population. It's probably easy to overestimate it given the size of the country and its political significance.

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Originally Posted by rvg

Protect Russia from whom? I hope you realize that Black Sea is heavily regulated by treaties. For instance, nuclear vessels (this includes both nuclear-powered ones and the ones carrying nuclear weapons) cannot enter the Black Sea aquatory. Ever. Now guess what, US carriers are nuclear powered: Turkey is required to deny them entry no matter the cause. If it isn't us then who could possibly be a threat? Romania? Bulgaria? Laughable.

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In the case of a hypothetical NATO-Russia conflict, those agreements wouldn't be worth the paper they were written on. Possibly only in a case if Turkey decides to stay neutral.

NATO control of Crimea would allow the alliance to base more ships in the Black Sea under Ukrainian flag, in the central location in the Black Sea, and limit severely Russian options of responding.

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Wrong, wrong, wrong. Russian naval base at Severomorsk has a HUGE modern Navy, including nuclear subs and one carrier. Guess what, they can't enter the Black Sea either. While in the Mediterranean they resupply either at the Russian base of Tartus in Syria or sometimes in Cyprus. Once again Black Sea is a non-player.

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That's the Northern Fleet. If you believe that either Northern or Black Sea fleet can realistically challenge US fleet anywhere except in the near vicinity of Russia coast, then you're really out of touch with reality.

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Why not? Why not? Why not? Why not? Putin has proven himself as a megalomaniac both within his country and abroad.

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We'll have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, Putin has proved that he is cold, cautious and calculated.

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Please, tell me more about the intricacies of Russian soul... This is nonsense. This mindset has been brought on not by some genetic trait or cultural upbringing, but by a dozen years of Putin's propaganda machine. Nothing more.

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Military and political doctrines have little to do with soul or genes. That would be like saying that Monroe Doctrine is about American soul or genetic traits.

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

Russia has plenty land on the black sea so this Crimea port thingy is a red herring.

Attachment 12537

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Ports don't usually spring up anywhere on the coast. Natural conditions are extremely important. Why doesn't Germany just increase the size of Hamburg port and imports directly everything, rather than using Dutch ports? Because Hamburg port can't handle that sort of traffic, while Rotterdam can.

Same with Crimea. Sevastopol is a natural port. To create a port of Sevastopol's quality, if it were at all possible, they would have to spend billions and billions. It would also signify the loss of a strategic position in the Black Sea. Do you think it is coincidence that from ancient times Crimea was always the most important trading and military port in the Black Sea?

So even if were possible to build a similar port, Ukraine in NATO means Crimea is in control of NATO.

Well, the Russian propaganda machine isn’t exactly taking a sabbatical either, is it.

Putin’s speech opens the door to the repartition of Eastern Europe.

It was fine for Russia to crush break-away nationalists within their own borders but not for others to do it to Russian speakers. They become protectorates or part of Russia. Very reasonable and honorable.

The Ukraine is longing to come home. They just don’t know it yet.

Why not just go back to where the borders were 100 years ago and have done with it! Oh! Waite…

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Yeah - I get that - but what I also get is that Putin sees parts of other countries as occupied Russian land, and the Crimea episode indicates he's not above using force to "restore" that land to Mother Russia - up to an including potentially the entire Soviet Union.

Despite me posting the translation of his speech in English, you seem blind to that fact.

For a Russian "containment" means that the other "Great Powers" are trying to limit Russia's operation within what Russia sees as its legitimate sphere of control.

We want everybody to be a European democracy just for the sake of it, including Russia, but Russia sees that prospect as an existential threat.

And, for the moment Russia = Putin, in so far as decision making goes.

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

Well, the Russian propaganda machine isn’t exactly taking a sabbatical either, is it.

Putin’s speech opens the door to the repartition of Eastern Europe.

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It's quite naive to base someone's long term foreign policy on a speech, which was clearly intended for domestic audience, most of which can not understand the strategic importance of Crimea.

If we were to do that, that we would have to assume that US is actively planning to invade:
1. Iran
2. North Korea
3. Cuba
4. Syria
5. Belarus
6. Zimbabwe
7. Burma

... because they were mentioned in the "Axis of Evil' or "Outposts of Tyranny" speech.

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

Why not just go back to where the borders were 100 years ago and have done with it! Oh! Waite…

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No, that sounds fine.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/p...Europe1914.gif

Much simpler, a streamlined EU with fewer members, sounds good.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Lol, do people in European countries really call it 11/9? Considering it was an American event, and is called the "September 11th attacks", I don't see why you would call it 11/9 other than to be frustrating to USAnians.

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We kinda do, I know exactly where I was, was at home because I had called in sick. My mom called, she was crying, as I am now when I think of it, yeah I am a pussy. Turned on the tv and the pleasure of seing the second plane hit. I have never been that disgusted, completily taken over by what I saw, and speculation of what was going on over there, without anything I could do. It's not just an American event.

Blob blob blob, falling people who jumped. Ffs. My brother was on that building exactly a week before.

The laughable audacity of the fact that you just posted all about the "Russian mind" and how their culture is making them predisposed to treat 'x' by doing 'y' and then told RVG,

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"Laughable! I am French and there is one think I don’t pretend is to understand or speak for all French. When you get 3 French speaking politic you’ve got 5 opinions… But YOU understand (how many 380 million?) all Russians. And I really, but really, don't understand the mindset of this F***** actual French President, liar, traitor, coward and one of the worst piece of garbage never elected in a country (this including Sarkozy)."

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And you understand the Russian mind apparently? Not to mention the absolute rant that the above was.

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Originally Posted by Flavius Aetius

The laughable audacity of the fact that you just posted all about the "Russian mind" and how their culture is making them predisposed to treat 'x' by doing 'y' and then told RVG,
And you understand the Russian mind apparently? Not to mention the absolute rant that the above was.

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The part you quoted dealt with him stating you can't understand the mind of millions of people, so saying I was born/I lived/I have friends... is idiotic. It's not idiotic on its own, but claiming that it gives one special insight in the minds of 150 millions Russians, or 50 millions French, or 300 millions Americans is idiotic.

The second part was him giving his opinion about current French president. So, what are you on about?

Oh it was you but you pleasantly stepped into the hypocrites role yourself despite my mistake.

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Originally Posted by Flavius Aetius

Oh it was you but you pleasantly stepped into the hypocrites role yourself despite my mistake.

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What are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

What are you talking about?

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It's not idiotic on its own, but claiming that it gives one special insight in the minds of 150 millions Russians, or 50 millions French, or 300 millions Americans is idiotic.

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Showing off? Muscle flexing? Sabre rattling? Random land grabs? Empire building? Dreams of world domination? I don't know which one of these thesis is more ludicrous.

Russian mindset is completely different

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Originally Posted by Flavius Aetius

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The Serb makes no inconsistancy, a country is not it's government.