Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

Arthouros added: "But is not this war with the Μακεδόνες the sole reason for our alliance? When the Μακεδόνες lies defeated, what then? What shall we do if the Spartatai turn on us when we appear weak, having neglected to secure more Hêllenic allies to add to our influence and power?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Walle

Gaius, as leader of our party, could you post a more detailed post about the party, and perhaps add an image or something?

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Just to get into the swing of things I shall take the form of Demosthenes within the AAR (Gaius really doesn't cut the mustard as an Athenian name). I am grateful for the support shown for our party, and for the conciliatory effect my words seem to have engendered within the council. I will happily flesh out the position of the party, but you may have to give me a little time to do so. Perhaps the position will become clear as we progress. As a starting point I would suggest a reading of Chremonides decree. Not just a reading, but a taking to heart of the oaths, and their import, made within that decree, by all men of Athens - and by all men of Sparta.

Update to the parties of Athenai:

https://img217.imageshack.us/img217/...ancouncil3.jpg
Vaginacles was elected as the Epistates of the Council by the Boule (this election was randomized in a fair way, and all subsequent elections for Epistates will be randomized as well). He now has much influence in the Athenian assembly (if any you guys have suggestions for what privileges the office of Epistates can give, let me know).

The other Prytaneis are Fireblade, leader of the Moderates, Demosthenes (Gaius Sempronius Gracchus), leader of the Hellenes and Vaginacles and Leumenes (Jirisys), leaders of the Arche Athenaia (I went ahead and merged the parties and used the shorter and better name).

I'll change your name in the images soon, Gaius. It would be nice if Vaginacles and Gaius changed their avatars as well, for clarity in the image.

Symbols (if anyone wants to use in posts and sigs):

https://img20.imageshack.us/img20/6460/moderates2.png
Moderate Party of Athens

https://img17.imageshack.us/img17/840/hellenes.png
Koinon Hellenon Party

https://img145.imageshack.us/img145/...heathenaia.png
Arche Athenaia Party

Arche Hellas would sound better :grin:

~Jirisys (However, Vaginacles should agree with it)

Regarding the role of the Epistates

from wikipedia (and yeah I know they are not always to be trusted):

"An epistates (Greek: ἐπιστάτης) in ancient Greece was any sort of superintendent or overseer. In Hellenistic kingdoms generally, an epistates is always connected with a subject district (a regional assembly), where the epistates, a resident representative, exercised control and collected taxes on behalf of the king."

So perhaps deciding taxation levels in Athenai (possibly other cities closely allied to us like Chalkis kai Rhodos?)?

@ Molinaargh: You can maybe change my name to Glaucon, as fireblade doesn't sound so greek imho ;)

Maybe if there is a tie on a proposal, the vote of the epistates is decisive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jirisys

Leumenes asked Vaginacles to accompany him outside. Vaginacles, a new member in the assembly, yet older than Leumenes, he looked at him (Vaginacles) with respect and joy, as this would mean that their ideals would join together...

Leumenes said: "Hello, you might know my name now, yet, it seems we have been beaten, our ideals, while similar, have been rejected and the Hellenos party is the strongest... I propose to you, we unite our parties and stay as co-founders, our desicions would be thought out and appointed with our both approvals, founding, even inside the party, as an important one, especially for an Athenian party".

He waited for his response, yet wandering his mind on so many things he needed to clear up.

~Jirisys (sfdagjksafjbjfa)

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I accept your proposal, it is clear that your position and mine are similar enough for co-operation. Forgive me but i must get back to my studies (calculus :embarassed: )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paltmull

I'm usually not interested in AAR's, but wow, this one's epic!



This does indeed all seem very honorable. However, on what basis can we expect the Spartans to show the same respect and modesty? While Athen's ideals will always be those of civilization, culture and education, the Spartans only understand one thing: war. When the Macedonian threat is gone, how do we know that Sparta will not turn against us? I'm not saying that we should be hostile towards Sparta. We need them and they need us. But we should put the power and interests of Athens first. Tell me, Gaius Sempronius Gracchus, when the war is over, how would this unified Greece of yours be ruled? True, both we and the Spartans are Hellenes, but our differences are too great. Unity would not work except for in times of war. Sparta will never share the interests of Athens, they will prioritze military might and nothing else.

I propose that a party is formed that understands the importance of the alliance, but that also understands that these cultural and civilized ideals are not Greek, but Athenian. Athens should work together with Sparta to fend of the Macedonians and perhaps the Epirotes and other foreign threats, but in doing that we must still prioritize the interests of Athens primarily (spreading civilization and ensuring soveregnity, that is).

Anyway, I don't have time to participate that much in this AAR, but if someone feels like forming a party that is a bit less naive (:clown:) than that of Gaius Sempronius Gracchus's, this is my suggestion.

EDIT: By the way, Molinaargh, do Sparta and Athens share their income equally? Or do Sparta get money from "their" cities and Athens from theirs?

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You ask some very pertinent questions, and so I shall address them. On what basis, yo ask, can we expect the Spartans to show the same respect? Well, as a party of the Koinon I think it would be productive to engage like-minded Spartan councillors to a Koinon party there. We may, thus, be capable of a pan-Hellenic dialogue which the other, isolationist, parties cannot aspire to. We may then bring a level of understanding between our two great - though different - poleis shorn of the inward looking stereotypes.

Stereotypes like "While Athen's ideals will always be those of civilization, culture and education, the Spartans only understand one thing: war." for example. I think we can be quite sure that a similarly, yet oppositely, slanted confirmation of stereotype exists within the minds of Spartan 'nationalists'. It will be our purpose to dispel these misunderstandings between our two states, so that we each - Sparta and Athens - come to appreciate what the other offers, that the one does better than the other.

You say that we should put the power and interests of Athens first, and then propose our party's position as naive? What power and interest is it that we can concentrate upon right now? Our power to withstand the onslaught of the Macedonians at our gates? Perhaps the interest in our great fleet? You know, the one we cannot afford? Perhaps it is our power to 'allow' the Spartan Areus to relieve our position? Or is it the interests of our allies under attack by Pontic armies; those same allies we have not the strength or wealth to go to the aid of.

How will a Greece without Macedonian threat be governed? As it is being governed under Macedonian threat. With compromise and co-operation. How else can we, the Greeks, move forward. Are we to dissolve into petty internal quarrels once more? Weaken each other so that the next behemoth can pick us off? Let us, our great nation of Greece, and all the history of our nations, be the behemoth. It would surely be such a one that nations would beg to join, rather than having to be forced into subjugation to.

Let us civilise the world, by civilising ourselves.

Let us ponder the question of Macedonian succession. I believe that Sparta and Athens will never allow the other to interfere in their affairs. Thus, it is impossible for the dream of a true Koinon Hellenon to be realize. The Greek world will always be divided under Spartan, or Athenian, Spheres of influence. It is essential then that we be strong enough to resist any attempts by the Spartans of reclaiming their lost prestige, and the best way of doing this is to keep Sparta fearful of our capabilities. Nevertheless, it is not in Athen's interest to wage war on the Spartans, We must not forget that the Epirote king as well as the Seleucids gaze on Hellas with hungry eyes. Therefore, the only logical conclusion is for us to rebuild our athenian empire, centered around the Ageaen, while Sparta looks westward towards the Dorian cities of Sicily and her colony of Taras. This i feel is the most prudent partition of power for the Koinon Hellon, as they play to the strength of each city, Spartan infantry can deal with the Romans and Epirotes, while our seapower and cavalry will handle the Eastern Hellenistic kingdoms.

As for our "power", we must invade Thessaly and deny the Macedonian king of the thessalian horses there, depriving them of their cavalry that they depend on so much. It is true that neither Sparta or Athens can stand against the Macedonian menace alone, but it is foolhardy to put all our faith on the allied army, as such an army could be lost or used against us indirectly. Suppose we place our best men in the allied army, while we are besieged, and the commander refused to march out and assist us, it would be in their benefit to be in control of such a vast number of well trained men while their greatest rival suffers a seige. The allied army is valuable, but could also be a liability.

Molinaargh, you can change my name to Kairos (I'm named obviously after the forever awesome Kurush of Parsa), since Walle clearly doesn't sound even remotely Greek :tongue2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

You ask some very pertinent questions, and so I shall address them. On what basis, yo ask, can we expect the Spartans to show the same respect? Well, as a party of the Koinon I think it would be productive to engage like-minded Spartan councillors to a Koinon party there. We may, thus, be capable of a pan-Hellenic dialogue which the other, isolationist, parties cannot aspire to. We may then bring a level of understanding between our two great - though different - poleis shorn of the inward looking stereotypes.

Stereotypes like "While Athen's ideals will always be those of civilization, culture and education, the Spartans only understand one thing: war." for example. I think we can be quite sure that a similarly, yet oppositely, slanted confirmation of stereotype exists within the minds of Spartan 'nationalists'. It will be our purpose to dispel these misunderstandings between our two states, so that we each - Sparta and Athens - come to appreciate what the other offers, that the one does better than the other.

You say that we should put the power and interests of Athens first, and then propose our party's position as naive? What power and interest is it that we can concentrate upon right now? Our power to withstand the onslaught of the Macedonians at our gates? Perhaps the interest in our great fleet? You know, the one we cannot afford? Perhaps it is our power to 'allow' the Spartan Areus to relieve our position? Or is it the interests of our allies under attack by Pontic armies; those same allies we have not the strength or wealth to go to the aid of.

How will a Greece without Macedonian threat be governed? As it is being governed under Macedonian threat. With compromise and co-operation. How else can we, the Greeks, move forward. Are we to dissolve into petty internal quarrels once more? Weaken each other so that the next behemoth can pick us off? Let us, our great nation of Greece, and all the history of our nations, be the behemoth. It would surely be such a one that nations would beg to join, rather than having to be forced into subjugation to.

Let us civilise the world, by civilising ourselves.

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But we ARE civilized. The Spartans are not! Name one thing that future generations will remember Sparta for, other than for being warriors. While our monuments and philosophical and political ideas will remain for centuries (or perhaps even millenia) to come, Sparta will be remembered only for being militaristic savages.

As much as I like the thought of a unified Greece, if such an experiment involves Sparta it is doomed to fail. Let us instead take the opportunity to increase our influence within other city states. Making other states join forces against Macedon or liberating greek cities from Macedonian rule will increase our economical and military resources. This is a good opportunity to improve our relationship with Sparta, but to form a state with them? I don't think so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jirisys

Arche Hellas would sound better :grin:

~Jirisys (However, Vaginacles should agree with it)

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DISAGREE. ATHENAIA OVER ALL :D

This session is now over, there are more than enough orders compiled! :laugh4:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Molinaargh

This session is now over, there are more than enough orders compiled! :laugh4:

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i've changed my Avatar for you molin :smitten::smitten:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paltmull

But we ARE civilized. The Spartans are not! Name one thing that future generations will remember Sparta for, other than for being warriors. While our monuments and philosophical and political ideas will be remain for centuries (or perhaps even millenia) to come, Sparta will be remembered only for being militaristic savages.

As much as I like the thought of a unified Greece, if such an experiment involves Sparta it is doomed to fail. Let us instead take the opportunity to increase our influence within other city states. Making other states join forces against Macedon or liberating greek cities from Macedonian rule will increase our economical and military resources. This is a good opportunity to improve our relationship with Sparta, but to form a state with them? I don't think so.

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If we think to have a unified Greece and we do not include Sparta then that, I fear, will doom it to failure. What shall we do if not co-operate? We shall shift wary glances at each other's dominions until we sink into another bloody war where the credulity of our claims to being civilised will be sorely tested. Meanwhile some other of the Makedonian successors may appear at our gates to pick us off once again. Or will it be the rabble of Keltoi pillaging our countries?

Will our monuments, our buildings and our writings stand for anything if we do not or cannot fight for them against such enemies? Do we, like the Spartans, not honour our own heroes, in death as well as in victory? Has it not been an honour sought among the elite families of Athens, and other free Greek states, to send the most promising of our youths to be trained in the Agoge. There is no 'merely' in being capable warriors.

And who has said anything about a combined state? I would not wish for such and I doubt any Spartan would wish for such. What we ought to have is a confederation of independent states with the greatest emphasis on mutual benefit and advancement. Athens is Athens, and Sparta is Sparta, and long may that continue. I am for Athens, make no mistake, but our future and that of Sparta - as our pasts have been - are tied together. Like two brothers who have different outlooks and strengths we are stronger when we stand united than if we try to undermine each other.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by diomede

No literally, he needs help
http://www.onefunsite.com/images/donkey.jpg
(Sorry)



I appreciate this post, both for the rhetoric and the use of "laconic" so appropriately. Have a balloon. :balloon2:
(Are Spartans allowed to give balloons?)

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Thank you for the balloon (my first). Glad that the rhetoric was appreciated. And, apart from surrendering I believe a Spartan may do as he wishes... ;-) (Though, of course, surrendering to Athenians is the exception...)

The Spartan ambassador to Athenai rose from his seat in the Council, a look of unhidden disappointment on his face.
"Athenai, I have seen that you have, in a measure of incredible arrogance, decided to go through with this "Arche Athenai" idea of yours. I, quite frankly, am shocked and disappointed. I would have thought that you were more intelligent than this. Can't you see that your vision of an Athenai led Koinoin Hellenon will never materialize? To you, maybe, this may be a dream, but know that to all other Hellenes, including Sparte, that this would be a nightmare. You realize that this would never be allowed to happen? You realize that Sparte would rather fight you than accept this monstrosity? Do you want a civil war? Sparte does not, believe me. You know, I thought that Leumenes had taken a step in the right direction with his offers of mutual respect and fairness. I believed that we would reach a golden age in Athenai-Sparte diplomatic relations. But then Leumenes goes and does this. To be honest, I am hardly amused, and neither will the Sparte Council (where my master is Ephoroi-hooray!) when word reaches them. I sincerely hope that this party tones down its superioristic views, for the good of us all."
With that, the representative of the Ephoroi Populus and ambassador of Sparte strode from the floor and took back his seat.

267 BC

Athenian orders:
-Alliance Army comes led by Areus of Sparta (Chremonides will command it once Athenai is no longer under siege). (YES)
-The Spartan Army is allowed to move freely through Attike. (YES)
-Alliance Army to be reinforced. (YES)
-Improve military installations in Athenai. (YES)
-Improve trade in Rhodos. (YES)
-Fleet to blockade the port of Demetrias. (YES)
-Scout Makedonia, gaining information on the Macedoian forces in the region of Pella. (YES)
-Liberate Athens, then move the Alliance Army closer to Thessalia (Demetrias). (YES)
-Besiege Demetrias if possible. (YES)

Spartan orders:
-Improve the economy rather than the military (public buildings). (YES)
-Dispute the Attike Act (Spartans may not enter Attike). (YES)
-Expand espionage actions in Macedonia. (YES)
-Seek trade agreements across the mediterranean. (Not yet)
-Garrison the frontier fort. (YES)
-Stop recruitment in Sparta until population is restored. (YES)
-Enslave Demetrias once conquered. (YES)
-Royal pardon for the Athenian councilor (Jirisys) in Sparta. (YES)

https://img822.imageshack.us/img822/6711/001fh.jpg
Areus first ordered a small force of skirmishers to garrison the fort in Attike, which the Makedonians had left empty. This would make their retreat to Demetrias - or to the fort itself - harder. This ingenius action was a suggestion of the Spartan Council to their King.

https://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9219/002bct.jpg
Areus then proceedd to engage the Macedoians, under Alkyoneus Argeades, who were besieging Athenai.

https://img841.imageshack.us/img841/8371/002br.jpg
The Macedonians retreated without fighting to where they could...

https://img687.imageshack.us/img687/8666/003bpk.jpg
...to the north-east of the Attike Fort.

https://img155.imageshack.us/img155/281/003bgi.jpg
With Athenai no longer under siege, Areus stepped down from the command of the Alliance Army, and the new Strategos, Chremonides, took charge. Areus went back to Korinthos, where he was welcomed. His son had gone back to Sparte, where he intended to stay for his next 4 years in the position of Hegemon.

https://img683.imageshack.us/img683/7449/004gvm.jpg
Chremonides persued the Macedonian army to the point it couldn't retreat anymore. His first battle as Strategos was about to start.

https://img651.imageshack.us/img651/9114/005wad.jpg
The Koinon Hellenon forces easily outnumbered the Macedonians, but Alkyoneus Argeades was a great general that could still cause trouble.

https://img64.imageshack.us/img64/1069/006qom.jpg


https://img809.imageshack.us/img809/8486/007yi.jpg


https://img824.imageshack.us/img824/8084/008ado.jpg
Alkyoneus Argeades died in the battle, and his army fell quickly without him.

https://img16.imageshack.us/img16/650/009blq.jpg
Chremonides ordered the killing of all Macedonians who participated in the battle as a punishment for the siege of Athens.

https://img140.imageshack.us/img140/9724/010uzs.jpg
Few Makedons survived that day.

https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6805/011ity.jpg
Chremonides saw the complete obliteration of the Macedonian army as an opportunity to conquer Demetrias. He was confident in the current strength of the Alliance Army.

https://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9062/012dsj.jpg


https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9162/013svo.jpg
To the north, the Makedonian King gathered more forces in his capital.

https://img64.imageshack.us/img64/6896/014lb.jpg
He managed to do so, and sent them to break the siege of Demetrias. The Alliance Army outnumbered the Macedonians, but these had heavy cavalry, phalanxes and quality hoplites in their forces. They also had Kalos Argeades, a strong commander. Still, their forces were divided (the reinforcements and the garrison of Demetrias) and the Alliance Army was united.

https://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3673/015iw.jpg


https://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2675/016ai.jpg
Chremonides's plan was to attack the reinforcements quickly and rout them before the garrison of Demetrias arrived, fighting the 2 Macedonian armies one at a time.

https://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5464/017nq.jpg
The plan did not work. The Macedonian captain in charge of the reinforcements was strongly defended by heavy cavalry, and managed to keep his forces fighting as he waited for Kalos and the garrison of Demetrias.

https://img138.imageshack.us/img138/9655/018ur.jpg
The Koinon Hellenon Army was spread thin and started losing the battle in both flanks. The right flank eventually broke.

https://img691.imageshack.us/img691/2504/019ch.jpg
But in the center the Athenians and Spartans managed to get Kalos to "withdraw" (cowardly run away) from the battle, giving Chremonides the advantage.

https://img824.imageshack.us/img824/7852/020hwn.jpg
The battle was bloody. By the end of it, all military tactics were abandoned and the exhausted men just tried to stab whoever wasn't wearing their colors.

https://img194.imageshack.us/img194/1821/021nz.jpg
Victory came to the League of Hellenes, and again the Macedonians were chased and killed.

https://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8220/022kci.jpg


https://img826.imageshack.us/img826/2149/023kph.jpg
Most of the garrison of Demetrias was killed in the battle, so Chremonides ordered the assault on the walls.

https://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8594/024ii.jpg


https://img703.imageshack.us/img703/7223/025srn.jpg


https://img831.imageshack.us/img831/8048/026cs.jpg


https://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1895/027qf.jpg
Demetrias was conquered.

https://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6518/028dk.jpg
Eudamidas, the second Spartan King (and current Polemarchos of the Koinon), advised Chremonides to enslave the population of the city, as was requested by the Spartan Council. Due to the valuable help the spartans had provided in the previous battles, and since the Athenian Council had given no order on this matter, he agreed with the suggestion.

https://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3867/029am.jpg
After conquering Demetrias, Chremonides retreated to the Attike Fort with all the Alliance Army but a force of skirmishers, which was left in Demetrias to maintain order. He believed the Macedonians would siege Demetrias and the Alliance Army had been weakened and required reinforcements, which would be hard to recieve if they were stuck under siege in Demetrias.

https://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6016/030kc.jpg
The Macedonians did indeed siege the city soon after with a force that outnumbered the current Alliance Army.

https://img268.imageshack.us/img268/264/031sh.jpg
And they had even more men in the north. For now, Chremonides was staying in the Attike Fort, waiting for reinforcements and orders from the Athenian Council.

https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6343/032dn.jpg
Back at southern Hellas, public buildings and recruitments were made through this entire time. In Sparte the new military facilities were completed.

https://img220.imageshack.us/img220/52/033ekr.jpg
And work began on public health.

https://img809.imageshack.us/img809/9084/034mb.jpg


https://img706.imageshack.us/img706/8816/035vx.jpg
In Rhodos, the economy started being improved through the building of a mercantile port.

https://img62.imageshack.us/img62/338/036gr.jpg
In Athenai, reinforcements were recruited for Chremonides.

https://img822.imageshack.us/img822/1796/037db.jpg
And his son grew older, ready to enter public life.

https://img25.imageshack.us/img25/930/037bb.jpg
Although the idea of him joining the Spartan Agoge seemed absurd to many, he didn't find the notion so absurd.

https://img683.imageshack.us/img683/3240/038hn.jpg
Doros was a hellene more than an Athenian, and had liked the other cities, including Sparta.

https://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9823/039oh.jpg
In Athenai, the building of new military facilities started as well.

https://img51.imageshack.us/img51/1152/040rsm.jpg
Over at Asia, Sinope was conquered by Pontos. This city had once requested the help of the Koinon.

https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1450/041zi.jpg
Once the public health constructions were finished in Sparte, economic improvements started being made to the city.

https://img64.imageshack.us/img64/2389/042cq.jpg
And in the north, Pella was the last stand of the Macedonian King, as his forces had failed to conquer Serdike. Unless, of course, he managed to conquer Demetrias back from the Koinon.

This report was a bit different in that I reported all the military events first, then the rest. I thought it would be more interesting to follow Chremonides's campaign without interruption. Let me know if next time you want me to keep doing this or mix up the military events with the other ones. This was also the biggest report yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Populus Romanus

The Spartan ambassador to Athenai rose from his seat in the Council, a look of unhidden disappointment on his face.
"Athenai, I have seen that you have, in a measure of incredible arrogance, decided to go through with this "Arche Athenai" idea of yours. I, quite frankly, am shocked and disappointed. I would have thought that you were more intelligent than this. Can't you see that your vision of an Athenai led Koinoin Hellenon will never materialize? To you, maybe, this may be a dream, but know that to all other Hellenes, including Sparte, that this would be a nightmare. You realize that this would never be allowed to happen? You realize that Sparte would rather fight you than accept this monstrosity? Do you want a civil war? Sparte does not, believe me. You know, I thought that Leumenes had taken a step in the right direction with his offers of mutual respect and fairness. I believed that we would reach a golden age in Athenai-Sparte diplomatic relations. But then Leumenes goes and does this. To be honest, I am hardly amused, and neither will the Sparte Council (where my master is Ephoroi-hooray!) when word reaches them. I sincerely hope that this party tones down its superioristic views, for the good of us all."
With that, the representative of the Ephoroi Populus and ambassador of Sparte strode from the floor and took back his seat.

---

Leumenes, shocked, by both what he had accepted and to what the fellow spartan said, proceeded to adress it, before marching to meet the Makedonian army and rejoin Chremonides' Somatophylakai.
"I am shocked, to hear what ideals I have pursued, yet to find myself in such an awful position, the orator adressed us as united, without even consulting our ideals for the merging, I would like to keep the Party of the Wise and Just as proposed without the merger, my dear Vaginacles, I am sorry, but your position is too sectorian, I cannot compell myself to fall on that vice again. I will still be partyless, until one man joins, for my Ideals are different from the Hellenos, and more unifying than the Arche Athenaia.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jirisys

I will found the Σμβαλλόμενο μέρος των σοφού και δίκαιου (Sumballomeno meros ton sophou kai dikaiou (Party of the wise and just (PWJ))

To spread the word of great Aristoteles and Clistenes, Platon and Euclides, all the men that are Athenian or not, may them be wise and they shall receive their due right. We will fight ignorance, impulsivity and injustice, with wisdom, deliberation and fairness. We must join, join the men in Hellas to a greater life, as part of the powerful and free Demos, for them not to be called idiotes, that they vote, like free men. To join all of Hellas in intellectual panhellenism and to be proud and strong, like all Hellas should be. Yet, if they so wish, allow full autonomy, but to unite the people as one, as the people from Hellas.

What better symbol for our cause than that of the owl of Athena?

The owl to be black and the shield to be dark blue

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.jevaart.com/owl.jpg

(Maybe same as of the faction symbol but with a black owl)

~Jirisys (:crown:)

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"However those ideals have changed, to be less Athenian and more panhellenic, to join ourselves as Hellenos, however free, yet we must install both wisdom and strenght, from Athenai and Sparte, but not forgetting the valors of the other Hellenos like rhodoi and kretoi, like eubioi and thessalioi, all proud to be Hellenos!"

To add, furthermore, the symbol would be an Aspis and Doru, in black, with blue background.

Leumenes' last words, before he went campaigning.

~Jirisys ()

Leumenes, in the forth, rushed on horse, as a standing councilmen in the assembly was not going to be in peril by a campaign...
He sat down, tired and sweaty, his beard was growing prouder, yet he was just 23 years old. Now more mature, more wise too.

"Athenians, euobians, spartans and korinthians alike, I'm saddened to hear our Rhodian friends have not been able to come at this meeting, yet times are descisive. We ask for the support of the Polemarchos, for if he, would be able to capture the Delphoi city, we might have a fighting chance to sorround and destroy our biggest foe once and for all. Yet, it is not the time, for our men, while acheiving great and bloody victories, have succumbed to the Hades. We must certainly make good use of our navy, by sailing, if we have enough time to attack the beseiging army by sea, to free Demetrias from the makedonian army, but we must act fast, for if Demetrias falls, more men would die, we must rush to destroy the army, yet we must bring the plight of urgent help to the Lakedaimonians, Euobians and the Pelopponesos, so that we do not sacrifice more lives than needed. Please, all those lives now resting in the Elysean fields would see the horror of them having died for nothing. We must ask the euobians to levy as many men as they can, if they cannot, to build a military building for the next time needed. We ask as hellenoi, not Athenoi or Rhodoi, but as a common plight for all greek men."

He asked a pupil of him, to write his speech so that he may say it once more, when he would respond the spartan invitation to the assembly, to which he had not visited in two years.

I PROPOSE we ask the whole alliance for help, so Demetrias may not fall to the enemy. And let the men join their armies when no longer needed if the y so wish.
I PROPOSE we levy men from Athenai to add them to the allied army.
I PROPOSE that if there's time enough, to make a hybrid attack to the besieging army (however I believe there's not enough time)
I PROPOSE we levy men from Euobia and if not possible, to build a barracks to do so.
I PROPOSE we reinforce the allied army with the Athenian men.
I PROPOSE we ask the Polemarchos if he is able to assist in the defense.
I PROPOSE we strike the Arche Makedonia in it's heart, with support from the Polemarchos and any other Hellenic army (If Demetrias is freed and we have enough men to defeat the garrison).
I PROPOSE we give theslaves captured in Demetrias to the spartans, as helots and slaves so their population issue may resolve.

He finished by saying (shouting): "FOR HELLAS IS POWERFUL AND THEIR MEN'S BRAVERY AND VALOR ARE EVEN MORE!"

He sat down, remembering his spartan friend who fell, honoring his duty, protecting his Strategos, now talking with Herakles or Priamos, waiting for Leumenes to die a spartan death too, yet not soon, for he had a great future...

~Jirisys ()

Small update to the council (names, portraits and Jirisys leaving the Arche)

https://img109.imageshack.us/img109/...ancouncil4.jpg

https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3039/athens.png
The Athenai session is open to decide what actions must be taken in 266 BC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jirisys

Leumenes, in the forth, rushed on horse, as a standing councilmen in the assembly was not going to be in peril by a campaign...
He sat down, tired and sweaty, his beard was growing prouder, yet he was just 23 years old. Now more mature, more wise too.

"Athenians, euobians, spartans and korinthians alike, I'm saddened to hear our Rhodian friends have not been able to come at this meeting, yet times are descisive. We ask for the support of the Polemarchos, for if he, would be able to capture the Delphoi city, we might have a fighting chance to sorround and destroy our biggest foe once and for all. Yet, it is not the time, for our men, while acheiving great and bloody victories, have succumbed to the Hades. We must certainly make good use of our navy, by sailing, if we have enough time to attack the beseiging army by sea, to free Demetrias from the makedonian army, but we must act fast, for if Demetrias falls, more men would die, we must rush to destroy the army, yet we must bring the plight of urgent help to the Lakedaimonians, Euobians and the Pelopponesos, so that we do not sacrifice more lives than needed. Please, all those lives now resting in the Elysean fields would see the horror of them having died for nothing. We must ask the euobians to levy as many men as they can, if they cannot, to build a military building for the next time needed. We ask as hellenoi, not Athenoi or Rhodoi, but as a common plight for all greek men."

He asked a pupil of him, to write his speech so that he may say it once more, when he would respond the spartan invitation to the assembly, to which he had not visited in two years.

I PROPOSE we ask the whole alliance for help, so Demetrias may not fall to the enemy. And let the men join their armies when no longer needed if the y so wish.
I PROPOSE we levy men from Athenai to add them to the allied army.
I PROPOSE that if there's time enough, to make a hybrid attack to the besieging army (however I believe there's not enough time)
I PROPOSE we levy men from Euobia and if not possible, to build a barracks to do so.
I PROPOSE we reinforce the allied army with the Athenian men.
I PROPOSE we ask the Polemarchos if he is able to assist in the defense.
I PROPOSE we strike the Arche Makedonia in it's heart, with support from the Polemarchos and any other Hellenic army (If Demetrias is freed and we have enough men to defeat the garrison).
I PROPOSE we give the slaves capture in Demetrias to the spartans, as helots and slaves so their population issue may resolve.

He finished by saying (shouting): "FOR HELLAS IS POWERFUL AND THEIR MEN'S BRAVERY AND VALOR ARE EVEN MORE!"

He sat down, remembering his spartan friend who fell, honoring his duty, protecting his Strategos, now talking with Herakles or Priamos, waiting for Leumenes to die a spartan death too, yet not soon, for he had a great future...

~Jirisys ()

---

~Jirisys (Quoting myself)

The young Galen stood up amongst his peers, it was his first day as a councilmen after the death of the late Alister, Galen was young and inexperienced but had heard of Leumenes and was inspired by the strength and determination of the young man.

"Councilmen, brothers of Athenai.. and Sparte, though you have little say here, i would like to begin by giving my praise to Chremonides for succeeding where the Spartans were unsuccessful. however as we all know it was with great losses, and perhaps a report on the exact state of the army should be given so we know what best to recruit to bolster the alliance."

"Once this report has been recieved from Chremonides, that is if it is at all, we should put all efforts to bolster the army, for im sure once the macedonian army reclaims Demetrias it will then march to Athenai and attempt to retake it."

"Also on the state of our new Athenian royalty, Doros, i propose we should allow him to join the Spartan Agoge, it would bolster our relationship with the Spartans."

"Therefore i agree with Luemenes' I, II, IV, V, VI, and VIII proposals, however i do not agree with his other propositions, as we do not have the man power at the moment to push into Macedonia, perhaps we should reserve our men in northern Attike until next year when we have a larger army to take pellas itself."

With that Galen took his seat, feeling accomplished for it being his first day and already stepping into the foray of politics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pockettank

The young Galen stood up amongst his peers, it was his first day as a councilmen after the death of the late Alister, Galen was young and inexperienced but had heard of Leumenes and was inspired by the strength and determination of the young man.

"Councilmen, brothers of Athenai.. and Sparte, though you have little say here, i would like to begin by giving my praise to Chremonides for succeeding where the Spartans were unsuccessful. however as we all know it was with great losses, and perhaps a report on the exact state of the army should be given so we know what best to recruit to bolster the alliance."

"Once this report has been recieved from Chremonides, that is if it is at all, we should put all efforts to bolster the army, for im sure once the macedonian army reclaims Demetrias it will then march to Athenai and attempt to retake it."

"Also on the state of our new Athenian royalty, Doros, i propose we should allow him to join the Spartan Agoge, it would bolster our relationship with the Spartans."

"Therefore i agree with Luemenes' I, II, IV, V, VI, and VIII proposals, however i do not agree with his other propositions, as we do not have the man power at the moment to push into Macedonia, perhaps we should reserve our men in northern Attike until next year when we have a larger army to take pellas itself."

With that Galen took his seat, feeling accomplished for it being his first day and already stepping into the foray of politics.

---

Leumenes, glad to see another young man, like when he started the periodic visits and cousels to the polis, joyfully proclaimed:
"Great men of Hellas, let us have a warm welcome to our new friend, pockettank, for making such a good and unifying proposal, for which I AGREE with. And I would like to adress that several proposals stated that may not possibly be made by the end of the year, however we must remain strong and cooperative."

Now asking for the orator stand, he stepped down, he took it, and with loud and deep voice spoke:
"Fellow men, as you may know, the Σμβαλλόμενο μέρος των σοφού και δίκαιου (Sumballomeno meros ton sophou kai dikaiou (Party of the wise and just (PWJ)) has failed, yet, I have seen we need to renew it. I first, would like to remove it, as it must now be built from the ground. I would like to create a party, which name will be: Συμβαλλόμενο μέρος των ελεύθερωι και ενωμένοι άνθρωποι την Ελλάδα (Simballomeno meros ton eleutheroi kai enomenoi anthropoi tin Ellada) Party of the free and united men of Hellas. It's ideals will be of unity, unity of all Hellas, of greeks and those that wish to become it and join us as mighty Hellenos. To unite Hellas, wether spartan or athenians, to fight, like brothers, of a single polis, side by side, to defend it from barbarians and treacherous greeks, to seek unity with our fellow men. Those are the ideals of all greeks, wether foreigners coming to seek the proud way of ours, or nationals, born in a polis as free men.

It's symbol, to be Green, a dark tone, and inside it, An Aspis semi sideways with the Doru crossing it with it's tip on the top, with a Machaira holding both in place, with the hilt up, Below this, a small wall, representation of a polis, showing the equality among greeks, yet show their marvelous ideals as a base, the base of all, the Polis. all of these be white or yellow.

I would like to ask of pockettank, his support, to join this party, and the spartan senator if so wish, to support me so we all greeks benefit from this party, and it's ideals of equality and unity."

Leumenes sat down, renouncing the orator stand, awaiting calmly the response of the youngest assemblyman, before going to Lakedaimonia.

~Jirisys ()

Galen arose from his seat.

"Senator Leumenes, you do me great honor by personally requesting my aid in forming your party, i gladly accept and will do all in my power to strengthen the party."

Galen retook his seat in awe that he was asked to from a new party on his first day of service.

Glaucos then spoke,

Clearly this is a grave situation. Let's not abandon Demetrias, and waste all the lives of the men that fought there.
I PROPOSE for the Alliance army to march there as soon as possible, hiring any mercenaries it finds along the way. As we'll need funds for this action, no new construction projects should be initiated for now.= WITDRAWN
I PROPOSE for our fleet to sail north and blockade the port of Pella, in order to disrupt all Makedon trade that remains.

I AGREE with Pockettank's proposal.

@ Molinaargh: Is it possible to see the troops left in the Alliance army?

"What is your stance on my proposals" Leumenes stood up quickly and said those words to the assembly, he wassomewhat confused Glaucos did not adress his proposals.

Edit: The symbol kinda like this (only betterm It's 12 AM here, so my 2D artist is long asleep :laugh:):
https://img690.imageshack.us/img690/9370/pfumh.png

~Jirisys ()

Galen arose, feeling the power of being a senator course through him, he had no fear, he could argue with the best so long as his points were valid and he had a powerful friend like Leumenes.

"Glaucos, the battle at Demetrias was not necessarily to capture it, we enslaved its populace, made it close to useless for the Macedonians, we destroyed a large portion of their army, killed one of their best generals. Do you not see, the battle crippled them, the last of their army stands at Demetrias, if we wait one more year to gather troops, build infrastructure, and devise tactical plans, we can destroy the Macedonians in one fell swoop and integrate them into our society." The young senator stopped to catch his breath, the speech being more then even he expected.

"While i could understand your desire to protect Demetrias, would you want to risk a weakened tired army supported by mercenaries who fight for money and cant be trusted to win a war against the last of Macedonia, where a defeat means the loss of Demetrias, the Allied army and maybe even Athenia?" Galen was surprised by his speech, seeing shock on many senators faces that such a young man would risk his career making a potential enemy in Glaucos, but it was necessary thought Galen, he needed to voice his, and probably many other senators views.

"I wont stand by while we gamble on this war, we dont need another incident like Areus's especially so soon, we lost our army and almost Athenia from the Spartans rash thinking, we need not make the same mistake, were Athenians, thinkers and progressives, we need to come out at the forefront of tactics and brains."
With that Galen took his seat exhausted and terrified, what would the great Glaucos retort back at him?

Councillor Leumenes,

Forgive me the delay, for I wanted to study your proposals more thorough. As you are well aware, the future of our city is at stake.

I AGREE with provision 1-7 of your proposal.

I DISAGREEwith your final proposal. I refuse to yield my slaves to the spartans, for if you recall correctly, our cities provide the bulk of the finances of the koinon. If aside from money, we also take the responsibility for manpower, Sparta might feel less obliged to honour the agreements of the Koinon. We supply the money, they the men. Now is not the time for population transfers.

Councillor Galen speaks rash, yet, there lies wisdom in his words.

But one year, you say. What can Makedon do in one year. Imagine their army, positioning themselves at the gates of our city. Last time, we had to ask the Spartans for help. While we all agree that was necessary, we must also think of our people. How do we look, as leaders of this city, when we can't even protect the farms lying a mile away from the agora.

But now, the defeat has hurt the Makedons, their armies are stretched thin. If we smash their army here, Demetrias is secure, and we can replenish the Alliance army.

Yet, I see the merit in your proposal, and Areus' fate surely left a dent.

Only a fool does not recognise his own mistakes. Therefore, I Withdraw my mercenary act, and SUPPORT a retraining program. May the gods have mercy on the soldiers guarding Demetrias.