Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

I'm usually not interested in AAR's, but wow, this one's epic!



This does indeed all seem very honorable. However, on what basis can we expect the Spartans to show the same respect and modesty? While Athen's ideals will always be those of civilization, culture and education, the Spartans only understand one thing: war. When the Macedonian threat is gone, how do we know that Sparta will not turn against us? I'm not saying that we should be hostile towards Sparta. We need them and they need us. But we should put the power and interests of Athens first. Tell me, Gaius Sempronius Gracchus, when the war is over, how would this unified Greece of yours be ruled? True, both we and the Spartans are Hellenes, but our differences are too great. Unity would not work except for in times of war. Sparta will never share the interests of Athens, they will prioritze military might and nothing else.

I propose that a party is formed that understands the importance of the alliance, but that also understands that these cultural and civilized ideals are not Greek, but Athenian. Athens should work together with Sparta to fend of the Macedonians and perhaps the Epirotes and other foreign threats, but in doing that we must still prioritize the interests of Athens primarily (spreading civilization and ensuring soveregnity, that is).

Anyway, I don't have time to participate that much in this AAR, but if someone feels like forming a party that is a bit less naive () than that of Gaius Sempronius Gracchus's, this is my suggestion.

EDIT: By the way, Molinaargh, do Sparta and Athens share their income equally? Or do Sparta get money from "their" cities and Athens from theirs?

You ask some very pertinent questions, and so I shall address them. On what basis, yo ask, can we expect the Spartans to show the same respect? Well, as a party of the Koinon I think it would be productive to engage like-minded Spartan councillors to a Koinon party there. We may, thus, be capable of a pan-Hellenic dialogue which the other, isolationist, parties cannot aspire to. We may then bring a level of understanding between our two great - though different - poleis shorn of the inward looking stereotypes.

Stereotypes like "While Athen's ideals will always be those of civilization, culture and education, the Spartans only understand one thing: war." for example. I think we can be quite sure that a similarly, yet oppositely, slanted confirmation of stereotype exists within the minds of Spartan 'nationalists'. It will be our purpose to dispel these misunderstandings between our two states, so that we each - Sparta and Athens - come to appreciate what the other offers, that the one does better than the other.

You say that we should put the power and interests of Athens first, and then propose our party's position as naive? What power and interest is it that we can concentrate upon right now? Our power to withstand the onslaught of the Macedonians at our gates? Perhaps the interest in our great fleet? You know, the one we cannot afford? Perhaps it is our power to 'allow' the Spartan Areus to relieve our position? Or is it the interests of our allies under attack by Pontic armies; those same allies we have not the strength or wealth to go to the aid of.

How will a Greece without Macedonian threat be governed? As it is being governed under Macedonian threat. With compromise and co-operation. How else can we, the Greeks, move forward. Are we to dissolve into petty internal quarrels once more? Weaken each other so that the next behemoth can pick us off? Let us, our great nation of Greece, and all the history of our nations, be the behemoth. It would surely be such a one that nations would beg to join, rather than having to be forced into subjugation to.

Let us civilise the world, by civilising ourselves.

[Vaginacles]

Let us ponder the question of Macedonian succession. I believe that Sparta and Athens will never allow the other to interfere in their affairs. Thus, it is impossible for the dream of a true Koinon Hellenon to be realize. The Greek world will always be divided under Spartan, or Athenian, Spheres of influence. It is essential then that we be strong enough to resist any attempts by the Spartans of reclaiming their lost prestige, and the best way of doing this is to keep Sparta fearful of our capabilities. Nevertheless, it is not in Athen's interest to wage war on the Spartans, We must not forget that the Epirote king as well as the Seleucids gaze on Hellas with hungry eyes. Therefore, the only logical conclusion is for us to rebuild our athenian empire, centered around the Ageaen, while Sparta looks westward towards the Dorian cities of Sicily and her colony of Taras. This i feel is the most prudent partition of power for the Koinon Hellon, as they play to the strength of each city, Spartan infantry can deal with the Romans and Epirotes, while our seapower and cavalry will handle the Eastern Hellenistic kingdoms.

As for our "power", we must invade Thessaly and deny the Macedonian king of the thessalian horses there, depriving them of their cavalry that they depend on so much. It is true that neither Sparta or Athens can stand against the Macedonian menace alone, but it is foolhardy to put all our faith on the allied army, as such an army could be lost or used against us indirectly. Suppose we place our best men in the allied army, while we are besieged, and the commander refused to march out and assist us, it would be in their benefit to be in control of such a vast number of well trained men while their greatest rival suffers a seige. The allied army is valuable, but could also be a liability.

[Walle]

Molinaargh, you can change my name to Kairos (I'm named obviously after the forever awesome Kurush of Parsa), since Walle clearly doesn't sound even remotely Greek

[Paltmull]

You ask some very pertinent questions, and so I shall address them. On what basis, yo ask, can we expect the Spartans to show the same respect? Well, as a party of the Koinon I think it would be productive to engage like-minded Spartan councillors to a Koinon party there. We may, thus, be capable of a pan-Hellenic dialogue which the other, isolationist, parties cannot aspire to. We may then bring a level of understanding between our two great - though different - poleis shorn of the inward looking stereotypes.

Stereotypes like "While Athen's ideals will always be those of civilization, culture and education, the Spartans only understand one thing: war." for example. I think we can be quite sure that a similarly, yet oppositely, slanted confirmation of stereotype exists within the minds of Spartan 'nationalists'. It will be our purpose to dispel these misunderstandings between our two states, so that we each - Sparta and Athens - come to appreciate what the other offers, that the one does better than the other.

You say that we should put the power and interests of Athens first, and then propose our party's position as naive? What power and interest is it that we can concentrate upon right now? Our power to withstand the onslaught of the Macedonians at our gates? Perhaps the interest in our great fleet? You know, the one we cannot afford? Perhaps it is our power to 'allow' the Spartan Areus to relieve our position? Or is it the interests of our allies under attack by Pontic armies; those same allies we have not the strength or wealth to go to the aid of.

How will a Greece without Macedonian threat be governed? As it is being governed under Macedonian threat. With compromise and co-operation. How else can we, the Greeks, move forward. Are we to dissolve into petty internal quarrels once more? Weaken each other so that the next behemoth can pick us off? Let us, our great nation of Greece, and all the history of our nations, be the behemoth. It would surely be such a one that nations would beg to join, rather than having to be forced into subjugation to.

Let us civilise the world, by civilising ourselves.

But we ARE civilized. The Spartans are not! Name one thing that future generations will remember Sparta for, other than for being warriors. While our monuments and philosophical and political ideas will remain for centuries (or perhaps even millenia) to come, Sparta will be remembered only for being militaristic savages.

As much as I like the thought of a unified Greece, if such an experiment involves Sparta it is doomed to fail. Let us instead take the opportunity to increase our influence within other city states. Making other states join forces against Macedon or liberating greek cities from Macedonian rule will increase our economical and military resources. This is a good opportunity to improve our relationship with Sparta, but to form a state with them? I don't think so.

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

But we ARE civilized. The Spartans are not! Name one thing that future generations will remember Sparta for, other than for being warriors. While our monuments and philosophical and political ideas will be remain for centuries (or perhaps even millenia) to come, Sparta will be remembered only for being militaristic savages.

As much as I like the thought of a unified Greece, if such an experiment involves Sparta it is doomed to fail. Let us instead take the opportunity to increase our influence within other city states. Making other states join forces against Macedon or liberating greek cities from Macedonian rule will increase our economical and military resources. This is a good opportunity to improve our relationship with Sparta, but to form a state with them? I don't think so.

If we think to have a unified Greece and we do not include Sparta then that, I fear, will doom it to failure. What shall we do if not co-operate? We shall shift wary glances at each other's dominions until we sink into another bloody war where the credulity of our claims to being civilised will be sorely tested. Meanwhile some other of the Makedonian successors may appear at our gates to pick us off once again. Or will it be the rabble of Keltoi pillaging our countries?

Will our monuments, our buildings and our writings stand for anything if we do not or cannot fight for them against such enemies? Do we, like the Spartans, not honour our own heroes, in death as well as in victory? Has it not been an honour sought among the elite families of Athens, and other free Greek states, to send the most promising of our youths to be trained in the Agoge. There is no 'merely' in being capable warriors.

And who has said anything about a combined state? I would not wish for such and I doubt any Spartan would wish for such. What we ought to have is a confederation of independent states with the greatest emphasis on mutual benefit and advancement. Athens is Athens, and Sparta is Sparta, and long may that continue. I am for Athens, make no mistake, but our future and that of Sparta - as our pasts have been - are tied together. Like two brothers who have different outlooks and strengths we are stronger when we stand united than if we try to undermine each other.