I can, and it's utterly worthless and misguided.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
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I can, and it's utterly worthless and misguided.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
For the current cycle, I'd put it down to an Israeli act, namely the assassination of Rabin. That was the best chance since the formation of Israel of getting a peace that was broadly acceptable to both sides, with a realistic chance of it bedding into a lasting political reality. It went with Rabin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Is it, ISIS kills more on a good day.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
My theory, leftists just can't cope with the fact that Israel has build a succesfull country for themselves, while all muslim countries are still a mess despite all the money and aid they get. That's one annoying itch on your back just where you just can't scratch if you are so very very convinced all cultures are equal an valuable, and an enrichment for our own. Well they aren't (says me). That realisation is now past the point of redicule because these gutmensch are now at the point of silence.
Does this apply to me? Just curious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I'm starting to get the impression that there's a Fragpost generator there somewhere, where you click a button and it throws a number of terms together with some connective grammar, and spits out a post that hangs together grammatically, but has little else. The number of arguments that are mutually contradictory in the above post just beggars belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
It's just that Frags is drunk.
Read him across a thread and you can see the rants start to coalesce into a semi-coherent gestalt post.
If by gestalt you mean that anything that is wrong with the world is labelled as "left", and ergo everything that is right is "right", then you've got it. Never mind that socialistic organisation and all the other stuff associated with the European left was what made Israel a relatively successful nation, with communal effort and all that. Frag prefers to look at the racialistic elements of modern Israel as the right way to go, with all the success Israel has had as the natural consequence of that. In Frag's mind, their racialism is what made Israel the most successful country in the middle east. Not their socialism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
No, I don't see you having a fixation on Israel, but many leftists (don't know where you stand) do. The whole middle-east is burning but Israel is all they are interested in. I would say that ISIS is a whole lot more worthy of talking about as the middle-east is the new Heart of Darkness by now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
With that kind of simplification going, he is ready for a career in US politics!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Not for us your silly European nuance crap. Black or White, Red or Blue, Right or not USA...yeeeeeee-****in'-HA!!!!!!!
Are you under the impression that I am more opposed to Israel than I am to ISIL---?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
If so, why?
Already said it wasn't directed at you. But the people who are the most vocal about Israel usually completily ignore other conflicts. You won't see them demonstrating for anything else. Media as well, every fart of Israel gets attention, but much worse things happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
This raises an interesting question: Why do you stalk these people?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Don't have to these demonstrations get plenty of coverage (the swastika's were cut out, but admittingly they could be put in a context) Yesterday Kurds protestet in The Hague, One Dutchman of the socialist party attended. Today there is another (pro-pali)demonstration in Utrecht, the greens will attend, the socialist party, and some other organisationnd no doubt a lot of gutmenschen and bored rich kids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
That is utter rubbish you only believe because you are ignorant. YOU have never protested against anyone else. Other people do. Most conflict zones around the world have demonstrations arranged. The people who attend a "Free West-Sahara"-rally are mostly the same people you will see at a "Save Gaza"-type rally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Kidding me, most of these protesters have never heard of the saharan west. Bit like in that movie 'the village' those we don't talk about.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
You have no knowledge of what you're talking about, so no wonder your conclusions are completely wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Remember that "Boytcott Israel"-flag at Utøya you brought up a long time ago? It was made out to be 'proof' in the crazisphere that leftie organizations only care about Israel.... Except that earlier that day, they held their traditional lecture on the West-Sahara issue. A traditional lecture, held every year since the 70's. About a decade before they added a debate on Israel to the program.
Walk into any leftie building, and you'll find plenty of posters calling for the liberation of obscure territories you've probably never heard of. You'll also find plenty of annoying people ready to pester you endlessly about why their pet conflict is a special snowflake which everyone must focus on every second of the day.
The idea that the left only care about Israel is, quite frankly, retarded. But since you have no knowledge aside from parroting the talking points of clueless right-wing demagogues, I can see why you have the idea.
If Frag wants to isolate Israel as a success story in the hellhole that is the middle east, he should note that it's the traditional European lefty causes, Israel's greater liberalism and greater socialism, that has brought it its success. It's the religious and racialist tendencies, both traditional tendencies of the European right, that make it distinctly different from "the west" (as we now know it) and drift it closer to the rest of the middle east. If all the liberals and socialists leave Israel, and I'd imagine they'd be welcome anywhere in the west, there would be little to distinguish Israel from the other middle eastern countries, except for a better military.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I can show you the picture of your president (not sure he is) being cozy with the PLO right now right there, on Utoyah
Our president, Olemmic Thommessen, represents the conservative party. They hold their summer camp at Hove, which is a part of Tromøya, an island outside Arendal at the far south of Norway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Curiously enough, that's also where the Norwegian Communist Party holds their summer camp.
Not going to rip up open wounds, too early for that. I got the pics but not going to be at the wrong side of the argument right now
How on earth is a picture of Jonas Gahr Støre shaking hands with a PLO-leader going to "rip up open wounds"...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Do you really think it's something that is kept secret...?
Well these camps on that island where that massacre took place was kinda creepy. And that is all I want to say about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
The Utøya camp won't stop because of what happened in 2011. That would be silly. Things at Utøya are back to normal, with things going on like they always have. Except for a ceremony on the 22nd, nothing has changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Because the best way to deal with terrorism is not to be terrorized and hence stiff upper lip and keep moving forward. Sure put in remembrances and worthwhile security measures. But otherwise pursue happiness and don't let the terrorists dictate your lifestyle.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Was kinda hinting at the group activities here, the people who visited. What happened in 2011 isn't creepy it's horrifying.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Full stop now
They do look a bit like Soviet "summer camps", but then I spent my summers learning how to kill people with machine guns - which is much more "creepy" in retrospect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Personally - I would tear the camp down and leave it fallow for a century - much better than the daft plan to cut a hole in a cliff.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
The group activities are the same now as they were before. As they should be. Political debates, lectures, playtime and invited guests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
It's a lot less creepy than you think it is, and that may be because you'v never attended one. Basically it's a week's gathering with the people you work with on a daily basis the rest of the year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Do not forget that the majority of the attendants are active politicians, several of them elected members of local governments. It's not a random bunch of kids who gets indoctrinated, it's a teambuilding excercise for young professionals.
The hole is actually not on the island, it's on the mainland. Further, it is the express wish of the survivors to continue the camp as normal. It would be a lot dafter to disregard the opinions of the survivors IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Fair enough I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
And again the ceasefire is broken by the Palestinians. Just like every other time. A ceasefire is nothing more than just enough time to get more rockets.
Hey I can make this post again. Once again the need to kill was too strong, ceasefire once again broken by people with culture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
They are both conflict-soaked cultures. When personal identity is defined, in part, by your being an enemy of "those people," it is difficult to parse the particulars and generate meaningful agreements.
Fragony do the Jewish people not have culture?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Name the largest terrorist attack in Israel/Palestine.
Worst is probably the schoolbusQuote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
But again 200 missiles fired yesterday
91 people were killed in the biggest terrorist attack in Israel/Palestine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Could be, but attacking a schoolbus is sooooo cynicalQuote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
And there is that redefinition of boundaries to excuse one side and make one side look bad and the other good. BTW Frag, what do you think Israel will look like if all the leftists, ie. liberals and socialists, moved out of there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
That is a completily valid point of course, but also something that can easily waved for being an distraction of what is really going on. Hamas does not want peace, how many peace-have been broken by now? 10 or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
And where's the evidence that Israel wants peace? Neither side wants peace. Both sides are as bad as each other, and if I had my way, anyone who goes anywhere near that region gets disowned by their native country, whether they be Muslim, Jewish, or Martian. But you're the one who keeps excusing Israel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
At least 10 offered cease-fires being broken is kinda an indication on who does whatQuote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
And the landgrab in the West Bank? AFAIK territorial disputes is the most common, and usually considered the most deserving, cause of war in history, with the people whose land is being taken considered to have an automatic right to expel the invader by whatever means possible. What is your opinion of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank? What are the rights of the West Bank Palestinian authorities wrt these settlements in your view?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Settlements should stop I'd say but the west bank isn't Gaza. Both are Israeli territory in my opinion but that's just my opinion, was taken in a war they never started.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
You are correct that Gaza is not the west bank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
The West Bank has kept at peace with Israel for years.
Gaza has been at war with Israel several times in the last years.
The results?
Tons of settlements in the West Bank.
No settlements in Gaza.
An interesting way of rewarding peace.
If we were talking about Israel in general that would be debatable. Gaza and the West bank, however, were grabbed in the six-day war which opened with an Israeli first strike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I know it's unfair. But lets be honest the majority isn't even from there, mostly refugees from the civil war in Libanon. Not building settlements would be a courtisy I would apreciate.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I fully agree that the vast majority of the settlers are not from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I didn't know that, but it's hard to consider something a first strike when war has been declared.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralizec
So what. It's perfectly possible to have an opinion on Hamas without even thinking about the settlements. I don't like that either but worse things happen, not something I can get all that upset about when you think of what IS and Boko Haram are doing, why are we so upset about such a tiny conflict? And why is it so much more important?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
ISIS has its own thread, you don't have to bring it up all the time. Boko Haram possibly deserves its own thread, but what's there to say about them? They're bad?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Do I bring up Isis all the time, really. Try finding it. Within context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralizec
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053610515
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053607569
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053607483
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053607241
Summary: you think we should all stop criticizing Israel because we never talk about ISIS, which is worse.
Yeas I said all that and it's exactly how I feel about it. I will going to be hypocrite about something else, this one is taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralizec
North Korea is worse than ISIS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Following your logic, you should shut up about ISIS and make a thread on Dearest Leader.
The misery that North-Korea is is well known. Less known is how big the support for IS is within our borders. You are absolutily correct that these 74% don't mean anything. But the support or at least sympathising seems high, rather dubious facebook and twitter accounts get a lot of love.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I have noted a high rate of outrageous facebook statements from muslim youth. Generalizing this and thinking it represents anything but an insignificant minority is quite dangerous, however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
If we generalized the abundance of insane statements on facebook and twitter from the native populations, you'd think we were all living in a weird libertarian version of the third reich where women are confined to the kitchen. Take the Neo-nazis. They're extremely few, but you can find plenty of them in any comments section.
The crazies are loud and active. They dominate the intertubes, but they do not dominate real life. Fortunately.
I am not dumb, I fully understand these 74% don't mean all that much. Cautious though.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
How about before Israel was even declared a state?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
The King David Hotel bombing?
The ethnic cleansing of a village?
Fighting the British whilst the British fought the Nazis?
There are things even now with deadlier technology and higher population densities that the ultra nationalists did that make what is happening now look like a sideshow. Not orders of magnitude worse but two or three times more deadly.
Sorry to say Frags, but your arguments come off as rather thin...
You know I am no big fan of Arabic culture, but they most def are not the sole evil working in the region. Both the Jewish and the Arabic cultures are problematic towards each other, on a very much mutual scale.
No agreement required. Israel gave back enough land imho. It isn't a war they started themselve. Borders change in wars. It would be nice if the settling stopped but I don't see it as the great unjustice some see it, gambled and lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
And now there is supposedly peace between Israel and the West Bank authorities, yet Israel continues to take land from the West Bank, which is an act of war. If you want to complain about the Gazans unilaterally making war on Israel, you can also complain about the Israelis unilaterally making war on the West Bank. At least I recognise all sides as being as bad as each other and none of them wanting peace, while you try to paint the Israelis white and peace-loving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I don't see Israel as peace loving, that would be kinda silly. But judging them for doing what they do is a stretch too far for me. They can't give back the west-bank, that is just as rolling on your back to expose your belly, artillary can hit anything from there. Why give a crap about UN resolutions, they are worth as much as the Nobel peace price. Without excusing Israel I am not going to judge them for being the way they are. I would be much more forgiving I think, but I can't know that really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
The two stretches of land were part of Egypt and Jordan, as things currently stand they are not viable entities for bieng states - hell, even Wales doesn't want to go it alone as they prefer to be a remora fish.
Having enclaves that have no hope whatsoever of being self sufficient - even if the blockades were not in place - is not sustainable. Add that to the power plant and water treatment facilities being clear military targets to Israel means things aren't going to improve.
~:smoking:
Israel has announced plans to expropriate 4 sq km of Palestinian land in the occupied West Bank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29008045
Taking more land? How out of character! I hope this doesn't upset the peace process...
I love how all BBC websites end with this annexation is illegal under international law - although Israel disputes this.
Are we to see prisoners locked up in jail for breaking the law - although the criminals dispute the law in question.
~:smoking:
It seems even Israeli's are getting fed up with killing innocent civilians.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...625499623.html
That's absolutily something, but where did you read the 'killing innocent civilians' part. Article doesn't say that.Quote:
Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny
Here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Quote:
Originally Posted by Article
I don't read it like that but suit yourself, nothing there about killing, just injustice. Definatily a slap in the face for Israel officials who might want to reconsider some things.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Also read the bit about operations having nothing to do with security, but are about increasing control of the West Bank. Which claim is backed up by Israel announcing that they'll be building homes in the areas they're annexing. Israel isn't putting a buffer between Israeli citizens and Palestinians, they're taking land from the Palestinians and turning it into Israeli land, which then becomes further justification for more land grabs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Yes and my best guess would be that it's about that, but not about killing innocent civilians. Doing injustice to millions, debatable, probably true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
We should be thankful that those Israeli settlers in the unauthorized communities don't speak Russian....who knows who would annex whom under such conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian...iv,_Israel.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Though I hear tell that there's some tension between Ukrainian Jews and Russian Jews in Israel currently.
I absolve myself of any responsibility to care about Israel since it was all the European's fault (in particular the Brits):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wo2TLlMhiw
And yes, I am posting this video simply because I think it will rustle the jimmies of many people here.
Looks pretty good to me.
Why would anyone disagree with this being yet another zone of endless conflict that's caused by the British?
We threw our crap over a wider area than anyone else in history, so someone somewhere is bound to be spattered by it. Our excuse is that our crap didn't smell quite as bad as that of some others, and in throwing our crap around, we managed to fertilise some roses in the process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Most complaints I have seen about the video are focused more on the later half of the video. You know, people give a "my side is clearly more of a victim than the other so this video is making a false equivalence" kind of argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Actually, that's not too far off as analogies go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
I'm still trying to get my head around why, after so much grief during our tenure as an empire, any briton thought getting involved in the middle east was a good idea now we no longer were allowed to tax the locals.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
Wasnt it your nation who dragged the Ottomans into a war against the world's largest empire who was looking for an excuse rob the old man of europe's carcass?Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Maybe, but it was not our fault that the war went the way it did, with Britain on our side, there'd be less unexploded ordinance all over France and Belgium now. Hitler wouldn't have happened either. But Britain always wanted to keep the tension in Europe because it wanted a divided Europe that it could control while it murdered and pillaged in the rest of the world. :no:Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
And a sound strategy it was too. It was the whole point of the Seven Years War, which allowed us to deprive France of her empire (and make it ours instead). If it weren't for that traitorous turncoat British officer...Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Bah, if we hadn't kept you fighting eachother you would have ruled the world in our stead, and we all know how badly that went under the spanish let alone the slices of africa we let you have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
We screwed you guys over to protect the world from mainland tyranny.
Except france. They weren't worse than us, it's just funny watching them throw a fit, man did that backfire.