The source, please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
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The source, please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Let's imagine a group of armed men in camouflage professionally storm a police station in the UK, the USA, Germany, Serbia, Israel or (especially) Russia and get hold of all the weapons in the arsenal. What would the governments of those countries do and would they term these men otherwise than terrorists?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Can't open the link.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
@ Gilrandir,
You're very fluent in English. Are you an expatriate living in Ukraine, or are you a Ukrainian living abroad? When I went to Kiev, a lot of the Ukrainians could speak English, some fluently, others not. Are you one of them?
No, Russia was forced by the invisible hand of the market, but that's not even what I was talking about because Russia didn't annex Crimea a long time ago. Although if they did, we'd just have to let history be history and not blame them for things they did long ago. I think after roughly 10 years countries can't be blamed anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
The feeling of imminent threat was acute 2-3 weeks ago, now it has grown numb -perhaps some people have got used to living under stressful conditions, others still can't credit it might happen with all the Russian rhetoric of love for a brotherly nation and a long tradition of never considering Russia as an enemy. The overwhelming majority of people I communicate to (including those who voted for the Party of Regions and even worked in its local electoral headquarters) are shocked by what Russia has done and is still doing. I expect similar feeling would Canadians have if during the turmoils of Quebec referendum (which were of course not so serious) the USA intervened and bit away, say, Nova Scotia and kept an invasion force all along the border. Yet, the patriotic sentiment is growing apace (which I admit I never thought my fellow countrymen capable of) and very surprising for me is patriotism displayed in what has so far been considered a pro-Russian part of the country - Kherson, Mykolaiv, Dnipropetrovsk, Zaporizhya, and most astonishingly - Kharkiv and Odessa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
All this fills me with hope that Ukraine will preserve its integrity.
I can assure you, you can freely speak any language in any part of Ukraine (except Ukrainian in Donetsk and Lugansk regions which, as well as openly expressing pro-Ukrainian views, is reported to be unsafe now). The problem is most locals won't understand you unless you speak Ukrainian or Russian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
As for Kyiv, it is predominantly a Russian-speaking city, so speaking Russian there you would sound like a local. A TV journalist conducted an experiment a month ago: he went around restaurants and museums speaking Russian with the Moscow accent (which is rumored to cause immediate antipathy), sported his Russian passport and a scarf of a Russian football club most hated in Kyiv (as the legend goes); he even tried to start a row complaining that a restaurant didn't have a menu printed in Russian. During this tour he was being filmed by a hidden camera. AT NO PLACE was he treated without due respect and he never got "an attitude" he was provoking. Even after the row in the restaurant he was calmly explained that it was Ukraine so the menu must be in Ukrainian and told not to start a to-do otherwise he would be escorted off the premises.
You answered your own question yourself. Even during the most violent clashes the imminent danger zone in Kiyv was the downtown area, in other districts life went on pretty much the same. My daughter went on a bus tour to Kyiv with her class on the 27 of December last year. It is quite safe to do it SO FAR, but who knows what the situation in Kyiv (and indeed in Ukraine) would be even in a week. I expect everything to calm down after the presidential elections which are likely to be over by the middle of June. Yet I would not advise you to go there around May 9, when Victory Day is celebrated and Pro-Russians may rally their supporters and try pull off something unpleasant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
What would people who throw molotov cocktails at policemen, storm the parliament and threaten family members of members of the parliament be termed in these countries?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
I'm surprised that you found A LOT of Ukrainians who could speak English. Perhaps it was during Euro 2012 when many English-speaking volunteers were involved. But even if it was otherwise, there are more people who can speak English in Kiyv than in smaller cities and towns. The farther you get from big cities (especially Kyiv) the less likely you are to meet such people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
As for me, speaking English is what I get paid for - I teach it.
So do whatever you want and wait for ten years - everything will be forgotten and forgiven, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
You tell me. You are a German. I guess the same. But, to my mind, one must observe the difference of purposes: Maidan wanted to overthrow a corrupt government, protesters in the east want to cut off a part of the country. Yet I see that many people here are ready to fling violence charges at Maidan protesters and turn a blind eye on (or even justify) similar things done in Eastern Ukraine now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
I don't know, but that's exactly what protesters in Lviv and Kiev were doing. So, whatever do you think would have been acceptable then is acceptable now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
Sorry, wrong link. Here it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
The people whom I talked to were mainly people who dealt with tourists such as the hotel desk clerk, the taxi drivers and the store clerks at the department store. One of the border guards at a train station near Poland was quite fluent too. She asked me why I was taking pictures of the train station saying that it was a military building. I told her that it was for facebook (partly because I was scared out of my wits, going out of my mind, and I didn't know what else to say. Another reason was because she was smiling in a friendly manner and I felt attracted to her and wanted to be friends on facebook.....) She made me erase the photos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
Those in Kyiv and Lviv were an angry mob, not what we see in Slovyansk and other Donetsk region cities. Organized platoons of professionally acting soldiers. Don't the latter remind you of the green men in Crimea? The article you linked to seems to hold a similar opinion of those men.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Such people as you describe know English more or less - but again, they are paid to do that. The proficiency in English of those whose job does not require it is usually very poor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
Exactly, that's why I can't blame the US for Iraq anymore after all. It's in the past, doesn't matter anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
Maidan wanted to overthrow a corrupt, democratically elected President and the protesters in the east want to loosen themselves from a corrupt, unelected interim government that does not represent them, overthrew their elected president by throwing molotov cocktails at people and threatening members of parliament and then changed the county's course 180° without actual electoral backing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
As for turning a blind eye now, let's talk about who started this destabilization of the entire country and basically set a precedent for just taking what you want against the other half of the country.
The conduct of the Ukrainian military, the exemplary conduct I should say, in Crimea indicates that Kiev knows it can't win a fist fight with the bear. With that in mind, it does not appear likely that provoking the protestors in the East serves their goal. Indeed, thus far it has been Russia (see Crimea) who has been escalating tensions as an excuse to deploy troops. Putin has already referred to his "right" to send troops into Ukraine - a right that was granted by the Russian Parliament. The implication being, of course, that Russia has a natural right to intervene directly in Ukraine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
I don't believe the US or UK has the means, will, or idealogical framework to embed agents in a country as natives for a matter of decades.Quote:
And we know that US does all that and more, UK also (only on the much smaller scale). If we're basing our judgement on that USA could be responsible just as well.
As opposed to people who are explicitly RUSSIAN NATIONALISTS in a region in open revolt? Come on, it's as least as likely to be local bigots as Kiev - more likely given that Kiev has lost control of the region. Putin has appealed to the ethnic Russian population - that makes non-ethnic Russian suspect - and nobody's more suspect than the Jews.Quote:
The anti-whatever views are more easily associated with Kiev. Don't forget that 5 ministerial positions, in addition to various other important state functions, in the Maidan government is held by what is effectively a nazi party and that only violent incident (actually two incidents) involving Jews happened in Kiev, prompting one of the chief Rabbis in Ukraine to urge Jews to leave Kiev and, possibly even the country, to be on the safe side.
And these are more likely to be locals from the region supporting Kiev than FSB agents?Quote:
There were only about 200 or so of them distributed in a very short time by three men and then they disappeared. The men as well as pamphlets.
As I have repeatedly shown (and the developments in South-Eastern regions bear my ruminations out), there is no other HALF of the country. The majority of people and business elites all over Ukraine have acknowledged the new government and are ready to cooperate with it and pin hopes on it leading us out of the dead end Yanukovych has brought us to. In my view, it is he who started the destabilization you are talking about by proclaiming a course towards association with the EU (which noboby expected him to at first and nobody believed him to see it through), then backing out so provoking Maidan to gather and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
It is true that in Donetsk and Lugansk regions many people are distrustful of the new government but they are equally disillusioned in the Party of Regions and Yanukovych who, as they claim, betrayed them. This sentiment is actively propelled (and assisted both in arms and men) by Russia. Still, there are as many (and perhaps even more) people there who don't want any federalization, still less separation from Ukraine. But they are mostly scared or passive and rely on the central government to solve the problem.
So while a month ago what you said was true, there are no halves now.
The situations are not equivalent - the current situation in the East will prevent an effective Presidential Poll, which is what the Interim Government was aiming for - a new democratic mandate. you've also conveniently ignored the timeline - that the ACTIONS of the current Interim Government have dictated by Russian aggression. It's unlikely they would have signed that agreement with the EU, or that the EU would have agreed, otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
So, what you're telling me is that Kiev has no interest in discrediting the protesters? Am I reading it right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Lviv was in open revolt. They stormed police stations, government buildings, military depots, armed themselves and proclaimed themselves independent until they get the government they want in Kiev.Quote:
As opposed to people who are explicitly RUSSIAN NATIONALISTS in a region in open revolt? Come on, it's as least as likely to be local bigots as Kiev - more likely given that Kiev has lost control of the region. Putin has appealed to the ethnic Russian population - that makes non-ethnic Russian suspect - and nobody's more suspect than the Jews.
If you're trying to argue that just because the protesters in the east involve Russian population, they are more likely to target Jews, that's not even worthy of a response.
Unless I see a proof that Baldrick is working in the FSB, I'll continue to think that they aren't so stupid to try to discredit eastern protesters.Quote:
And these are more likely to be locals from the region supporting Kiev than FSB agents?
It usually boils down to the question "who benefited?". Protesters in the east didn't, that's for sure. Therefore it is unlikely they did it. It is equally unlikely FSB did it, for the same reason.
Now, it is possible that a few idiots from either side thought it was a good idea (or they could've been totally uninvolved), I agree, but it doesn't seem likely.
Three masked men, appearing suddenly, distributing 200 official looking leaflets very quickly and disappearing without a trace, does point to something a little better organised than three skinheads in a basement with a printer.
No interest in provoking the KGB Colonel who runs Russia, more like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Yes - they're all terrible people there: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...t-9178968.htmlQuote:
Lviv was in open revolt. They stormed police stations, government buildings, military depots, armed themselves and proclaimed themselves independent until they get the government they want in Kiev.
Come back when Lviv ask Poland to annex them.
ErrrrrrrrQuote:
If you're trying to argue that just because the protesters in the east involve Russian population, they are more likely to target Jews, that's not even worthy of a response.
Go back, re-read. I said Putin has used Russian ETHNIC nationalism as a dog-whistle to stir up unrest. By defining the Eastern issue as an ethnic one, he guarantees that the racists will be attracted to him.
Quo Vadis?Quote:
Unless I see a proof that Baldrick is working in the FSB, I'll continue to think that they aren't so stupid to try to discredit eastern protesters.
It usually boils down to the question "who benefited?". Protesters in the east didn't, that's for sure. Therefore it is unlikely they did it. It is equally unlikely FSB did it, for the same reason.
OK - who benefits from the collapse of the Geneva deal?
Putin and his military.
I refer you to the "Little Green Men" in Crimea - it doesn't matter if everyone works out it's the FSB, so long as Putin can claim Ukrainians are Fascists and invade.
And Ukraine can't organise a daisy-up from inside a Vodka distillery flooded with Vodka right now. That's because, you know, the INTERIM government is trying to to become permanent and thence get themselves shot.Quote:
Now, it is possible that a few idiots from either side thought it was a good idea (or they could've been totally uninvolved), I agree, but it doesn't seem likely.
Three masked men, appearing suddenly, distributing 200 official looking leaflets very quickly and disappearing without a trace, does point to something a little better organised than three skinheads in a basement with a printer.
Which leaves the FSB.
Since Crimea Putin has been operating a sort of Brute Force diplomacy, the minimum amount of effort for the thinnest pretext to act.
Unless you're willing to argue it was FSB who organized and sent Ukrainian army which took the airfield and tried retake control by force, you don't have much of a case. Obviously, they did much more, and leaflets are generally a "safe" way of discrediting the protesters. Just your normal, everyday propaganda, which Kiev didn't shy away from since day 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
What are you talking about.
I don't know about their morals and I don't feel the need to guess.Quote:
Yes - they're all terrible people there: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...t-9178968.html
Come back when Lviv ask Poland to annex them.
Quite a leap there. So far, there has been no problems, either in Crimea or in Donetsk region, despite "evidence". When it comes to playing on the ethnic card, Maidan government/protesters are way ahead of Russia.Quote:
Errrrrrrr
Go back, re-read. I said Putin has used Russian ETHNIC nationalism as a dog-whistle to stir up unrest. By defining the Eastern issue as an ethnic one, he guarantees that the racists will be attracted to him.
And in order to achieve that, he had leaflets that present eastern protesters as nazis printed and distributed? Let's try a new game - say it out loud before you write it.Quote:
Quo Vadis?
OK - who benefits from the collapse of the Geneva deal?
Putin and his military.
I refer you to the "Little Green Men" in Crimea - it doesn't matter if everyone works out it's the FSB, so long as Putin can claim Ukrainians are Fascists and invade.
I'm amazed through what kind of mental workout you must be going through to spin things in such a way.Quote:
And Ukraine can't organise a daisy-up from inside a Vodka distillery flooded with Vodka right now. That's because, you know, the INTERIM government is trying to to become permanent and thence get themselves shot.
Which leaves the FSB.
Since Crimea Putin has been operating a sort of Brute Force diplomacy, the minimum amount of effort for the thinnest pretext to act.
I have to be honest, Sarmatian. I was thinking today about you when I remembered you lived in Serbia and your views on this matter. Serbia, being the inheritors of Yugoslavia, you might have some opinions and views about ethics and piecemealing, both from the formation of that country and its dissolution and the role of foreign powers 'meddling' in affairs.
If you have the time and interest to indulge me. Could you illustrate some of your personal feelings involved in the Ukraine situation with how things have occurred back at home, perhaps any lessons learnt from those experiences which might be helpful in frameworking this situation under a different light which being from a rather unique situation to the rest of the board, you may have knowledge of.
I believe he would prefer the label "classic."Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Calling him a stereotype is only one step short of "cliché."
He's already pointed out that the pro-western uprising was a great deal less spontaneous than some would have us believe, with leaflets detailing standard protester uniforms that are identical to those supplied to him in the anti-Milosevic demos back in the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
Except the leader of the Tartars being banned from Crimea for 5 years...Quote:
Quite a leap there. So far, there has been no problems, either in Crimea or in Donetsk region, despite "evidence". When it comes to playing on the ethnic card, Maidan government/protesters are way ahead of Russia.
Leaflets now being derided as obviously fake - and apparently bolstering the Russian position.Quote:
And in order to achieve that, he had leaflets that present eastern protesters as nazis printed and distributed? Let's try a new game - say it out loud before you write it.
I dunno, maybe I'm giving Putin too much credit.
Should have read "trying to not become permanent...Quote:
I'm amazed through what kind of mental workout you must be going through to spin things in such a way.
I must get a new keyboard that has the letters printed on it...
Anyway.
He showed a picture comparing posters between Kviv and those in the Egyptian uprising.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
I don't believe he has touched much on home-issues in the thread, and was wondering if he had any in depth thoughts on them if he is willing to share as I had some intellectual curiosity. If Sarmatian has already done so, would appreciate a redirection to that posting or so. :bow:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27118875
There it goes - local politician murdered.
That's a very conspicuous hat that the pro-Russian soldier is wearing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
The Grenadier Guard will advance. Fo--WAHD!Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
It is - it's also the same guy - you can tell by the camo pattern on his gear. Whether it's the same guy as in the group pose photo - I'm not certain, but it may well be. At least - he appears to have all-modern Russian gear and be highly mobile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan