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Do we? How do you know? The Big Bad is on the other side of a vortex, who knows what's behind. And I could see some of us in a star base instead of a ship.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnhughthom
Anyway, that's not my point. We know that this killer is not the Big Bad because it's a ship (and not a vortex).
Just give Pinman one more night to prove him self.
Its still early phase of the game, and we can afford to make some mistakes hoping for a greater good
Also, those who want to kill the inactive person instead of beskar or pinman should instead place a vote for "no lynch".
Looking at it the other way, he claims investigator, the accepted practice has been to lynch their target, since in a game like this, roles are revealed. If Beskar is, I believe it will show in the writeup his affiliation. I don't believe he is pro town.Quote:
Originally Posted by miotas
Unofficial tallyQuote:
Pinman: (8) Yaropolk, autolycus, ArpeggiateTHIS, WEW, Double A, God Emperor, JHT, Miotas
Beskar: (2) landlubber, pevergreen
Stuck in Pi: (5) TheFlax, Pinman, Beskar, Stuck in Pi, Beefy187
Wideyedwanderer: (1) Nightbringer
abstain: (3) TheFlax, CDF, Diana Abnoba
EDIT: This tally is a dumb tally. I found two errors already.
Vote: Abstain
By the way, if a person who does not know anything about Star Fox may say anything around here, who could be the bad guys if Venomians and Star Wolf aren't evil?
I'm torn here, because back on CFC, Pinman has convinced me of his innocence far to many times to count while not being pro-innocent. On the other hand, I really have no idea of any of the .org's players standard MO. So in the interest of not killing potential scanners, Unvote, Vote: Beskar.
Oh please, don't be obtuse. Of course the number of kills is useful information and of course the big bad has one kill per night, that's the kind of information you'd get in any game. I'd even agree that kills using the same method are most likely done by the same person/group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanic
This is were it goes too far, that's specifically the kind of clue ATPG would add in other games, but he said he'd refrain in this one. ATPG wanted us to relie on standard mafia hunting techniques, that mostly mean analyzing thread behavior. It could very well be that ATPG is including false positives for all we know. There was also the fact ATPG made this post saying we can avoid reading the writeups and not miss something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanic
What you're ignoring with many others is that this is a Rubicon type setup, where both cornerians and venomians have mirror power roles on their side. Now, like in that game we can fight against each other or we can kill the bad guys.
Explain to me why do we need to pick a side in the Beskar v. Pinman debate now? How can you be sure lynching even one of them is a good choice? Also, I'm really disliking the way you're painting me here. "TheFlax is going out of his way to protect Beskar." That's not exactly true, now is it? I'm also going out of my way to try to avoid Pinman getting lynched also. As the insitgator of the bandwagon against him, if I really wanted only Beskar to live, I could have continued leaning on Pinman, but I think that's a bad idea. As for the likelyness of Starwolf being town, from what I understand of the setup, its very possible, though I can't say I'm sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanic
You're not the only person that's stated this, and it seems increasingly plausible each time I see it; I see no sense in lynching a scanner (particularly one who has had claims verified), and no sense in lynching Beskar (if he is Wolf) when there's a possibility he could be of use against the Big Bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlax
vote: abstain
There's something that's been niggling at me as I read over the last few pages though; why does a standard Cornerian have a ship-scanning ability?
You see, I would guess that each and every player has a ship of some kind, be it Arwing, Wolfen, Cornerian, Venomian or whatever... everyone except the Big Bad, at least, who we assume to be this vortex thing, so it's possible that a player who turns up no results from a ship scanner is the Big Bad; such an ability might be the only means to find said adversary, so why does a Cornerian have those means and not Fox, Falco or others?
Let us examine the situation:
1. I am claiming to have a scan ability, and have provided ample evidence of this ability. It should be fairly obvious to all concerned that Beskar is in fact Star Wolf. To top that off, I have also correctly told TheFlax his role (Although, of course, this could be guessed).
Anybody doubting the scan ability is simply paranoid.
2. I have claimed to be a simple Cornerian - which seems to be implausable. I have not, because there is no way too during this phase, provided any evidence to support this claim. However, it is a simple matter of waiting till the night phase to check this out.
In the meantime, given the (very minimal) uncertainty surrounding the alllignment of Star Wolf, we can wait and lynch an inactive.
I can't understand the uncertainty here.
Unvote: Pinman; Vote: Beskar
Pinman laid his cards out on the table. If we lynch Beskar, and he's not Star Wolf, Pinman is next. There is no way to twist the truth. A Beskar lynch will give us concrete information on Pinman.
Beskar on the other hand has said nothing which could be proven false tonight by lynchin Pinman. If Pinman is lynched and revealed to be a scanner, Beskar will get a chance tomorrow to twist the news to his side. E.G. yes I'm Star Wolf, but I'm not bad. Or if Pinman's death doesnt show a clear reveal, Beskie's off the hook without much of a defense.
Beskar - if you're really pro town then either confirm or deny that you're Wolf O'Donnel. At the very least that will either confirm Pinman as investigator or accuse him of lies. I encourage everyone to put pressure on Beskar to claim by voting for him.
I haven't looked at Rubicon until now, and from what I gathered there was two factions, Ceasarians and Pompeians, fighting against each other for victory, without any bad guys around. This one here is different, with the Big Bad around.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlax
I can imagine a setup pitting Star Fox vs Star Wolf, with the Venomians stuck in the middle, with a possibility to pick either side. It is now obvious to me why you are strongly suggesting... er what you are suggesting. Let's drop this debate, and we'll see how things develop, but Cornerians shouldn't dismiss the possibility that Star Wolf is our enemy. :bow:
Procrastination is rarely good, and tomorrow may bring something new that will require out attention. Resolving this today is best, otherwise the same questions will resurface tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlax
I'm not. How can you be sure that keeping both alive is a good choice? :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlax
I'm painting you the way I see it. You appear to be sticking your nose somewhere you don't belong. I would rather see Beskar and Pinman fight each other than having a diplomat coming out of nowhere toQuote:
Originally Posted by TheFlax
resolvedelay the matter. How can we be sure of anything if you work the arguments and the solution with them?
Enjoy this unofficial tally:
7 Pinman (ArpTHIS, autolycus, Double A, God Emperor, JHT, miotas, WEW)
5 Stuck in Pi (Beefy, Beskar, DiY, Pinman, Flax)
4 Beskar (landlubber,pevergreen, Stuck in Pi, Yaropolk)
1 ArpegiateTHIS (Khazaar)
1 wideyedwanderer (Nightbringer)
*****
4 abstrain (CDF, Diana, Secura, Seon)
*****
14 Not voting
I would like to point out the most nonsensical vote in this entire round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khazaar
FoS: Khazaar
vote: Beskar
I hate to place a vote when I'm not sure I'll be around to move it, but Beskar, you really need to put up or shut up at this point. Claim your role and your goals.
vote:no lynch
I do not wish to lynch stuck in pi as he is no longer inactive
Voting for Pinman is absurd if he truly is a scanner
Voting for Beskar if he truly is a power neutral role. How long does it take people to realise that neutral means neutral and does not mean evil!
Procrastination can be a good thing, particularly with collecting evidence to back a claim. If you're unsure about someone it's not a bad idea to allow them to make a mistake on their own, or possibly prove their innocence. I have sent a few innocent players home early due to premature action, purely ignorance on my part. I would like to avoid that here if possible. Keeping them both alive for now, I believe, is a better decision then lynching either one. The situation is odd to say the least. Pinman claims to be a normal cornie town with scanning abilities and that besker is star wolf, which doesn't really mean too much since we don't have supporting evidence that star wolf is pro-mafia this game. On the other hand, beskar is cunningly dodging the question with redirects. The truth will be made known in due time. We should be focusing on stopping who is actually killing us, and what paths to take to get to that end. The info thread states that our winning condition is to eliminate the big bad along with other hostile forces. Nights 1 and 3 there were two kills when night 2 had only one. I think it's likely there's another faction attacking us, possibly even misguided vig kills, or perhaps an aggressive neutral if such a thing exists. Though to a degree, I do agree with your perspective on private arrangements. I feel that discussions done privately are more detrimental then helpful due to the fact that you no longer have the resources of every town player being able to analyze and dissect the subtleties of the conversation. Right now, I think we are at a stand still. You want action instead of stagnation and normally that would work for the towns benefit in the end, but I do not feel strongly that acting on either candidate will pay off just yet. I would like more time and info. I think right now we can still afford to bide our time. Vote: Abstain Only to possibly prevent the two proposed power roles in question from being lynched and I would ask those who have not voted yet to do so before it is too late. We need the efforts and opinions of everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanic
Vote: abstain
I kind of want to hear a little more from Beskar.
Just a reminder, Abstain and No Lynch are two different votes.Quote:
Vote: Abstain Only to possibly prevent the two proposed power roles in question from being lynched and I would ask those who have not voted yet to do so before it is too late. We need the efforts and opinions of everyone
Abstain means "Present" but you have no opinion and thus, your vote is only counted for activity. It has no effect on the tally, and there will be a lynch.
No Lynch means "I have an opinion" and that opinion is, predictably, don't lynch anyone. That means if No Lynch outnumbers the top lynch candidate, there is no lynch.
Voting Abstain = voting for Pinman to die at the moment. Think on that.
Neutral means they aren't pro-town. Which means they're evil, assuming you want the town to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by hell_hound
Vote: Beskar
Hogwash, that's not what the victory conditions say at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaseikhaan
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlax
Unvote: abstain, Vote: Stuck in Pi
because apparently Beskar and Pinman are friends now or something. But really, did these back room deals actually reach some kind of consensus? (and by that I mean, care to tell the masses about it rather than keep it hidden?)
unvote: Pinman, vote: Beskar I don't trust Star Wolf as far as I can throw him, which is none too far.
"Backroom deal" is being touted a lot, but there really isn't much to it. All of the arguments discussed in private have also been made in public, I mainly just asked them both in private if they'd be ready to vote for a third party, to which they said "yes". Also, remember, I didn't choose to do all of this, I was brought in because I had been supposedly investigated by Pinman and thus became involved in the Pinman v. Beskar debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cultured Drizzt fan
oh. So nothing actually got resolved?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlax
edit, hold on
No. My idea of lynching a third party was to give us time to gather info, not give a free pass to either Beskar or Pinman. And no, there isn't some sort of big conspiracy of shadowy deals, sorry. :clown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cultured Drizzt fan
Both my original tally, and my updated tally, and Romanic's tally were ALL bad.Quote:
Beskar: (7) landlubber, pevergreen, Stuck in Pi, Yaro, Renata, Yaseikhaan, autolycus
Pinman: (6) Arpeggiate, WEW, Double A, God Emperor, JHT, miotas
Stuck in Pi: (6) Flax, Pinman, Beskar, DIY, Beefy, CDF
Wideyedwanderer: (1) Nightbringer
ArpeggiateTHIS: (1) Khazaar
No Lynch: (1) hell hound
abstain: (5) Diana, Seon, Secura, Skooma, ATPGood
That means I did a careful tally from the beginning.
This one is accurate.
It wouldn't surprise me you being wrong again, Palpatine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaseikhaan
Errr, pever is allowed to vote. Sorry :embarassed:Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
I thought he was dead, but aye, he came back as a sub.
You guys keep going on about clues in the write-up when there are supposed to be none. Here's the deal:
If you consider Star Wolf to be "Pro-town" or "Neutral" or whatever, then there are clearly clues in the write-ups pointing to them as murderers.
However. If Star Wolf is considered right from the beginning to be "Anti-town", then there are no clues in the write-ups. Because, you have to already assume that Star Wolf would be killing people. And as a result, the only new information you get is whether or not it was this Andross/Big Bad character OR Star Wolf. Who are both assumed to be enemies.
The only way ATPG isn't breaking his own rules is with the second explanation.
Therefore, lynch Beskar.
I am not friends with Star Wolf. I think he is almost certainly an enemy of the town.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cultured Drizzt fan
The almost is what caused me to change my vote - for today.
:rolleyes: I seem to recall you calling me evil and guilty in every game I wasn't. Good to know you're over that nasty habit, though I'd appreciate it if you would stop calling me by my old, innocent townsperson names.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Even though the write-ups say who was killed and in what manner...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaotix
So to summarise, if you believe Wolf is pro-town/neutral power-role, then there are clues in the write-ups, then there are clues pointing them as murderers.Quote:
If you consider Star Wolf to be "Pro-town" or "Neutral" or whatever, then there are clearly clues in the write-ups pointing to them as murderers.
However. If Star Wolf is considered right from the beginning to be "Anti-town", then there are no clues in the write-ups. Because, you have to already assume that Star Wolf would be killing people. And as a result, the only new information you get is whether or not it was this Andross/Big Bad character OR Star Wolf. Who are both assumed to be enemies.
The alignment of Wolf has no bearing on whenever or not there are clues in the write-up.
However, if there are no clues, you have to automatically assume he would be killing people as a mafia.
Same critical logic failure.
Quote:
Who are both assumed to be enemies.
This is an assumption with no bearing on reality. As posted by the Host:
12. The Big Bad (main enemy of the game)
* This is the role that the Town and Neutral factions start off opposing.
* The Big Bad could be anyone.
* There may be more than one Big Bad... or just one, depending on what happens.
The Big Bad is the enemy of the game. The "Star Wolf is Mafia" is simply because Chaotix decides to say so, irrespective of any factual information.
Therefore, the only way the host being fair is with this logic disapproves your own point?Quote:
The only way ATPG isn't breaking his own rules is with the second explanation.
huh?
Because the ability to pull rabbits out of magic holes means you are correct.Quote:
Therefore, listen to me.
https://img713.imageshack.us/img713/...ynchbeskar.png
Right, forgot the rules. Seems someone has to go today. Unvote, Vote: Stuck in Pi I would vote for no-lynch but it would have no impact I'm afraid.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlax
Has Beskar roleclaimed yet?:laugh4:
I think I missed something here. Why exactly am I being lynched?
I'm going to have to go with Vote: Beskar. I feel that if we even have only a fair chance a getting a mafia out of this whole Pinman v. Beskar, we have to take it.
So, to do this, you would want to kill the one which isn't a mafia or even being accused of being a mafia?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozen In Ice
Also, I would like to remind people of Netherworld, regardless of any results correct or otherwise, the investigator was the mafia. This is more relevance since in a seemingly large game there is only 1-2 kills, usually in a large game, you are looking at 3-4. This implies the Mafia has other abilities.
This is also a relevant point, considering Pinman is not claiming to be Fox or part of the Starfox team. As it has been brought up before, "Joe Smuck" getting a very powerful ability. Also, consider that one of the people working for Star Fox is also voting for Pinman, therefore, he isn't a member of the Starfox team.
>Implying Wolf isn't anti-town.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
As I noted earlier, his attempts to do that, while still refusing to admit he is Star Wolf, are highly amusing.
Also, I quoted the host twice, where he said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaotix
1) Everyone, town and neutral, are working agains the Big Bad (s).
2) Where the Host said Wolf is after the Big Bad.
= Fact, not an assumption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Quote:
working agains the Big Bad (s).
Quote:
Big Bad (s).
>Implying Wolf cannot possibly be a "Big Bad".Quote:
(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaotix
Erm, Wolf isn't the Big Bad or is a Big Bad. Since the host explicitly said Wolf is against the Big Bad in the write-up, it is impossible for him to actually be against himself, is it?
Stop pulling rabbits out of your magic hole.
https://img713.imageshack.us/img713/...ynchbeskar.png
>Implying you didn't understand what I meant by that statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
>Implying Wolf cannot possibly be an additional Big Bad who is pitted against the other one.
Chaotix = Talking out of his behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaotix
Do the town a favour and refrain from posting again, instead of nonsense. All you are doing is confusing people and spamming the thread.
This is degenerating in some pretty nonconstructive dialogue guys. :no:
I think its pretty clear who will be lynched in three hours. We'll see what comes of that.
Double A = here
confused = very yes
Because everyone forgot that No Lynch was an option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuck in Pi
Actually, I just discovered something very disturbing, to illustrate this, am I going to ask Falco (Romanic) a question directly in here.
Falco said earlier that both me and Pinmen are viable choices. This in-line with scumtells and information I have recieved.
So I will ask this.
Falco, is Pinmen a good lynch choice?
(because I cannot ask privately for obvious reasons)
Just like I said, any of you two is a good lynch in my eyes, to clarify this situation. What I don't want is to lynch someone else and see this scenario come back on day 5.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
No Lynch is a terrible choice at Day 4. When in doubt better lynch an unknown lurker, because it is nearly impossible to get a read on them by thread information. Stuck in Pi was chosen more or less at random from the people with the less posts in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by miotas
Alright then, I will be clear and straight to the point.
I am Star Wolf, I am a neutral power-role investigator.
My ability is to be able to check the ships, which Pizza said to me OOC to be the best investigation ability in the game, and the only one to check the Big Bad.
This is how I also know the set-up of the game intimately. The set-up is two town factions, the Cornerians and Vemonians with their respective power-roles Star-Fox and Star-Wolf. Our collective mission is to stop the big bad. I also know from this, that Team Star Wolf are in contact with eachother, so is Team Star Fox.
I got a scum-reading on Pinmen, hence I started my accusations against him. When he said he investigated me, I instantly knew he wasn't a starfox member, and was akin to Netherwold where Sigurd was a mafia investigator.
He claim pleaing to me in private to stop, and through TheFlax. TheFlax was convinced he might be StarFox or a member of the team, so I decided to the truce. The idea of the truce was for me to investigate Pinmen to work out his true alignment.
Obviously, lots of people understood this, and either abstained, no lynched, etc, with possible Bad guys, claiming I was some anti-town role.
More information kept coming my way, especially as Starfox team was in complete confusion over the incident, knowing that Pinman isn't a member of Starfox (or even the town), however, as I am Wolf, they weren't sure how to proceed.
Anyway, in short -
Pinman is a Big Bad Aligned Mafia Investigator
Killing me will prove nothing, you can always kill me tomorrow, but he isn't a member of StarFox or a pro-town. He needs to be stopped.
unvote; vote: Pinman
If Falco says he is a good lynch choice, then he is obviously not a pro-town member.
I may be new to mafia games and this site, but I would think, with Falco being dead, him giving his opinion on a lynch would be against the rules?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Nevertheless, I stand by my vote for Pinman. I definitely agree that between Pinman and Beskar, one of them has to go this round. Pinman, out of nowhere, just as he's going to be lynched, announces that he knows the identity of Starwolf, or some crazy story like that? It just seems a bit...convinient, stretched, and suspicious, IMO.
He's allowed to give his opinion on who is guilty or innocent.Quote:
Originally Posted by wideyedwanderer
If he had an investigative ability, he cannot reveal the results of that, or hint.
As I was typing my last post, Beskar went ahead and revealed himself as Starwolf. He claims to be neutral, and he could very well be, but I clearly remember from playing Star Fox 64 all my battles with Star Wolf... :inquisitive: I still think voting for Pinman is the best choice right now, since he seems to be the bigger immediate threat, but after that, we'll have to decide what to do with the big bad wolf.
unvote; vote: Beskar
Obviously I can now tell you absolutely that Beskar is lying - and is anti -town.
EDIT: Beskar told the Flax that he had an ability to recognize Star Fox - and that he therefore knows I am Star Fox. Flax can confirm this.
Please note I am NOT Star Fox - but Beskar assumed that I was for some reason. Hes lying to save his life.
Ok, I don't know if Wolf has any ulterior motives or not, but his argument makes sense to me. If both Falco and Wolf see Pinman as a baddy, then he can't be good news.
vote: Pinman
Hahaha, but I am not! I am the vemonian power-role investigator. I am not anti-town at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinman
Also...
Pinman is not Team Star Fox (aka, Cornerian Power Roles) but infact, the MAFIA.
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
Hey Town, if you think I am actually bad, kill me tomorrow, but let's nail the mafia first.
Fox, you get rid of me freely after this if you wanted, but lets nail this scum first.
i'm waiting on Flax to nail you Beskar.
Gem of the Day:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinman
He is the Mafia, Lynch Time!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinman
But he won't, because I never claimed that I have investigated you. You lied.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinman
Flax, come and show this. The conditions of the truce was you to be investigated, but since I am the investigator...
Edit:
You are going down, Mafia!Quote:
TheFlax says:
I was fishing
I said, Beskar says you are Starfox to get something out of him
Excellent. Lets wait for Flax then.
Actually, I lied to Pinman. I told him Beskar knew he was Starfox as an attempt to test his reaction. Beskar never told me he investigated Pinman or that Pinman was Starfox. Beskar told me Pinman might be Starfox, and I just took it from there as a fishing attempt on Pinman. :shrug:
Unvote; Vote Pinman
I went with the truce as I thought he might be Starfox, in otherwords, two allies fighting a foe.
Though Pinman kept breaking the truce conditions by kept on repeating I was Star Wolf, and the fact Star Fox team knows he isn't one of them. Plus with the information I recieved from Pizza about my investigation ability (Which anyone else who had it, would have to be Fox or the Big Bad), but instead "Joe Smuck the average Cornerian" doesn't make sense at all.
Shame I didn't realise this sooner that he wasn't part of the Star Fox team, I would have nailed him then.
Kill me tomorrow, you know who I am and what my ability is. Let's get this mafia scum first.
unvote, vote: Pinman
This post from Beskar pretty much proves that my assumption was correct; ship-scanning is a powerful investigative ability wielded by Wolf (and I would guess Fox as well if the Rubicon mechanics hold true), and unlikely to be found in the hands of a bog-standard Cornerian. So why does Pinman have it?
Also, Romanic states that he feels that either option is a good lynch, which would suggest that Pinman was not allied with Falco, so we're looking at a proposed Cornerian with an ability akin to the neutral Wolf's and he's not Fox, Slippy or Peppy. So, who are you, Pinman?
I'm going to take my chances with Beskar over the generic townie claiming a powerful ability, but if there was ever a time to tell the truth, it would be now; Beskar's come out, you might as well do the same, Pinman.
There is very little that I can say at this point. The one thing I will will emphasize is that Beskar's story has constantly shifted - while mine has stayed the same.
All I ask is one night to be scanned and prove myself. Beskar seems fundamentally opposed to this - because it will give me credibility, and make his position extremely difficult.
Please don't be deceived by Beskar's changing stories - and scummy behaviour. Lynch Star Wolf - the man who killed Star Fox's father.
So basically, Beskar accused Pinman, Pinman OMGUS accused Beskar, now Beskar is panicking and is all like:
https://img22.imageshack.us/img22/7931/wolf1x.jpg
but now he has reveals and he is like
https://img686.imageshack.us/img686/3923/wolf2s.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinman
:laugh4: :laugh4:
Can't let you do that, Mafia!
[P.S, the only change was me = Star Wolf, whereas I didn't admit to it. The rest of it correct. On the other hand, you are lying and still lying now.]
Unvote, Vote: PinmanQuote:
Originally Posted by Pinman
His father is quite clearly alive. Even if he wasn't, we don't know how he died.
less than 40 mins to go.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/image...ns/popcorn.gif
unvote; vote:Pinman
Secura's post summarizes it nicely.
Roleclaiming as Androssian Servant.
Star Wolf is the other killer. You can choose to believe me, or you can choose not too.
Let's see... neutral guy vs servant of SUPER MEGA EVIL DUDE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinman
Not much of a constest here, bub.
Unvote: Stuck in pi
Vote: Pinman