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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Fragony
Everything changed since Merkel's birdcall and the consequences, I don't think many people mind guest-workers from the EU, and I don't see how actually do having a problem with it could ever be racist anyway, it's not about them, it's about people from out of Europe who want to have the furniture changed.
Even before the referendum, we had the powers to deal with extra-EU migrants. Our borders are relatively easy to keep track of, and laws exist that keep them from establishing themselves de facto. The remote threat was that Turkey could be admitted, which would make it an intra-EU problem, but that possibility was remote given that we'd rejected them in the past and they'd gone even further from our standards since. If there was a non-refugee problem, it wasn't one that significantly touched the UK.
But then, like I'd said, most of the arguments for exiting the EU could well apply to many countries in the EU, but they didn't apply to the UK. Eurozone-related problems certainly didn't apply, yet they were apparently given by some as the reason for voting Leave. Similarly for the possibility that the accession of Turkey could lead to an influx of Muslims (Greyblades raised this in one of his posts, and there are accounts that people voted Leave to "get the Muslims out"). Which didn't make sense for the goal and the action we were taking. Meanwhile, the majority of Remainers just wanted tomorrow to be largely like today, without anything that we couldn't adequately plan or allow for. Instead, we've torn up everything, and, as the Leavers here have stated, there are no plans for what happens now, as it's not their responsibility to plan for the aftermath of their decision.
Ugh.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
It was the responsibility of the government to plan for both results in a referendum they had planned to hold for over a year, that they didnt plan for the outcome they didn't want is thier failing, not the failing of the people who voted that way in the referendum.
Evidently a change in government is in order, and as labour is tearing itself apart and the conservatives are looking like idiots I expect the next government will look nothing like the last, thank god.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Greyblades
It was the responsibility of the government to plan for both results in a referendum they had planned to hold for over a year, that they didnt plan for the outcome they didn't want is thier failing, not the failing of the people who voted that way in the referendum.
Evidently a change in government is in order, and as labour is tearing itself apart and the conservatives are looking like idiots I expect the next government will look nothing like the last, thank god.
It's not the failing of the people who campaigned for Leave either, but the failing of the people who campaigned for Remain, to not plan to Leave. It's always someone else's responsibility.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Pannonian
Even before the referendum, we had the powers to deal with extra-EU migrants. Our borders are relatively easy to keep track of, and laws exist that keep them from establishing themselves de facto. The remote threat was that Turkey could be admitted, which would make it an intra-EU problem, but that possibility was remote given that we'd rejected them in the past and they'd gone even further from our standards since. If there was a non-refugee problem, it wasn't one that significantly touched the UK.
But then, like I'd said, most of the arguments for exiting the EU could well apply to many countries in the EU, but they didn't apply to the UK. Eurozone-related problems certainly didn't apply, yet they were apparently given by some as the reason for voting Leave. Similarly for the possibility that the accession of Turkey could lead to an influx of Muslims (Greyblades raised this in one of his posts, and there are accounts that people voted Leave to "get the Muslims out"). Which didn't make sense for the goal and the action we were taking. Meanwhile, the majority of Remainers just wanted tomorrow to be largely like today, without anything that we couldn't adequately plan or allow for. Instead, we've torn up everything, and, as the Leavers here have stated, there are no plans for what happens now, as it's not their responsibility to plan for the aftermath of their decision.
Ugh.
It's Germany who screwed up not the UK, the Merkel is only making things worse for herself as the Visegrad-countries just disregard her threats. The Brits are in a pretty comfortable position.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Pannonian
The funniest thing about the eff up is that immigration was the biggest issue for the Brexiters, but it's the areas with the least immigration that are most pro-leave, while the areas with the most immigration were the most pro-remain. London, which has by some distance the most immigrants in the UK by number and by proportion, was by far the most pro-remain region in England. Even Scotland only pipped us by 2%. What's perhaps even funnier is that the British Asians were apparently very pro-Brexit. Thus giving fuel to the ukippers who will be abusing them in years to come, encouraged by the seeming prevalence of fellow racists in this country.
Bloody idiots.
Two points;
1. The number one reason for voting Leave was sovereignty (49%), versus immigration [&] security (33%). hat-tip Ashcroft polling.
2. Non-EU immigrants voting Leave - an understandable consequence of an immigration policy that actively discriminated against their fellows.... unless the country is happy with a completely open-borders immigration policy.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Pannonian
It's not the failing of the people who campaigned for Leave either, but the failing of the people who campaigned for Remain, to not plan to Leave. It's always someone else's responsibility.
The prime minister and his cabinate are responsible, that they campaigned for remain is largely immaterial.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Pretty tame as hate crimes go, and 331, wow, that's truely a great amount in a nation of 60-70 million, assuming multiple crimes arent being done by the same people.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Pannonian
Kinda sceptical because Polish vermin is so specific, but I am often wrong. But over hete at least these things almost always turn out to be not what it initinally looked like, antifacistslol have been busted sooo many times that I am on hold when I read these things
'leave the EU, no more Polish vermin' is also odd, wouldn't it be 'Leave England', why would nationalist say 'leave the EU' after the referendum, makes no sense
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Papewaio
UKIP will need to win enough seats to make the major parties MPs actually vote yes to a Brexit Bill, followed by the Lords agreeing to it.
Until then the referendum is just another poll.
....and then political reality creeps in....
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Pannonian
Reported mate reported. Not the same thing at all.
Still that 'appeal to authority' is endemic on the left.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Pannonian
It's distressing - to be sure. Obviously the majority of the diot racists voted Leave (clever racists would vote to stay) and now they feel empowered. It will take a few weeks to sink in but then they'll slink back to their holes once they realise they're still loathed.
Of more import: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36678222
"Under EU law, the bloc cannot negotiate a separate trade deal with one of its own members, hence the commissioner's insistence that the UK must first leave.It is also against EU law for a member to negotiate its own trade deals with outsiders, which means the UK cannot start doing this until after it has left the EU."
Rather begs the question of why we need the complex exit negotiations, really, if they're just going to screw us anyway.
I rather think that this circumstance is unlikely - if the EU does choose to punish the British people en masse with this then it's just another argument for leaving as quickly as possible.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
InsaneApache
Reported mate reported. Not the same thing at all.
Still that 'appeal to authority' is endemic on the left.
Britain has had enough of experts, says Gove
Post Brexit, experts need to reassert their value to society
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HOWEVER you feel about the result of the UK’s EU referendum, the campaign itself cannot have left anything other than a foul taste in the mouth. The willingness to bend, ignore or invent facts was depressing and shameful.
Both sides were up to it, but Leave told the biggest whoppers. And to the victors, the spoils. It is from their ranks that the next government will probably emerge, so their abuse of facts needs to be held to account.
Let us start with Michael Gove. Pressed in a Sky News interview about expert warnings on the economy, he glibly replied: “I think the people in this country have had enough of experts.”
Given that Gove is likely to land a big job in the next government, this claim is troubling. He was not saying “expert opinion is worthless”. But he was giving voters permission to dismiss it and trust their own instincts, in cynical pursuit of his own goals. If he is prepared to use this tawdry tactic in the most important UK vote in living memory, there are serious questions about how he will conduct himself in high office.
....
We can do better. Sadly, experts must take some of the blame for failing to get their message across. They relied too heavily on spelling out the evidence and scoring factual points – tactics that played straight into the hands of Leave.
For a debate as visceral as this, facts aren’t enough. Reams of research has shown that firmly held beliefs – especially those to do with cultural identity – are resilient to conflicting evidence. Trying to change someone’s mind by bombarding them with facts usually just makes them dig in. Emotion trumps reason.
Academics in general don’t get this. They expect facts and evidence to carry the day, and are left shaking their heads in disbelief when they don’t. The Remain campaign shared this assumption, and made little or no attempt to stir any emotion other than fear.
It was never going to work. Rightly or wrongly, many people felt that their national identity was under threat. That allowed Leave to push emotional buttons with slogans such as “take back control”. Irrational, yes. Vague, yes. But powerful.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Experts need to stop allowing thier predictions be inflated by newspapers to bring people into hysterical panic that dont prove nearly as bad as stated.
They also need to stop expecting the people they constantly belittle and decry as uneducated idiots to consider avoiding a temporary economic downturn worth continuing in a democratic defecit.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
An economic expert is someone who can explain why his predictions were wrong. It's all guess-work they should shutup
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Fragony
An economic expert is someone who can explain why his predictions were wrong. It's all guess-work they should shutup
One of the predictions can safely said to be guaranteed though. The bigger party in a negotiation holds the whip hand over the smaller party. Especially if the smaller party starts with a bad hand and has a limited amount of time to negotiate. Once article 50 is invoked, beginning the negotiations of the UK's exit, that is the UK's position relative to the EU. The UK will have a limited amount of time (2 years) in which to negotiate new trade deals with the EU, or else be left with the default WTO conditions that no exporter in the UK wants. As an example of the disparities, something like 5% of Germany's exports are to the UK, which can be swallowed up in the overall EU economy, or else find another market elsewhere, which the size of the EU makes it easy to do. In contrast, 50% of the UK's exports are to the EU. If we can't compete, then we'll need to find another market for these goods, and the biggest markets will dwarf the UK, thus worsening any trade deals that we can expect.
No economic predictions, merely a comparison of size and power, and why unions hold more power than fragmented individuals. Is this disputable? Yet this is the position that we've got ourselves into.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
InsaneApache
....and then political reality creeps in....
Which is why the referendum is just another poll.
Yes most modern populist politicians chase polls. However they do not always do what the citizen voter wants.
A) Is there a delta in referendum particaption and normal votes? 72% vs 65%. So 10% aren't voting for an MP to do something.
B) corporate interests - campaigns cost money...
C) party interests - half a dozen of A six of B
D) national interests - aka leadership despite the above
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
One of the predictions can safely said to be guaranteed though. The bigger party in a negotiation holds the whip hand over the smaller party. Especially if the smaller party starts with a bad hand and has a limited amount of time to negotiate. Once article 50 is invoked, beginning the negotiations of the UK's exit, that is the UK's position relative to the EU. The UK will have a limited amount of time (2 years) in which to negotiate new trade deals with the EU, or else be left with the default WTO conditions that no exporter in the UK wants. As an example of the disparities, something like 5% of Germany's exports are to the UK, which can be swallowed up in the overall EU economy, or else find another market elsewhere, which the size of the EU makes it easy to do. In contrast, 50% of the UK's exports are to the EU. If we can't compete, then we'll need to find another market for these goods, and the biggest markets will dwarf the UK, thus worsening any trade deals that we can expect.
No economic predictions, merely a comparison of size and power, and why unions hold more power than fragmented individuals. Is this disputable? Yet this is the position that we've got ourselves into.
Sounds easy to solve to me, make a deal with the Netherlands and use it as a proxy.A nexit is unrealistic no matter how much I would like to see it, but the possibility of a nexit is a sword of Damocles hanging over all major industry-zones in Europe. They'll be nice. Haven't you noticed a complete lack of actual powerplay, only fearmoning rhetoric. You guys are safe, might hurt a bit but not for long, year or so
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Pannonian
One of the predictions can safely said to be guaranteed though. The bigger party in a negotiation holds the whip hand over the smaller party..
That is why I doubt Article 50 gets invoked any time soon...if at all.
The UK just has too much to lose.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Fragony
Sounds easy to solve to me, make a deal with the Netherlands and use it as a proxy.A nexit is unrealistic no matter how much I would like to see it, but the possibility of a nexit is a sword of Damocles hanging over all major industry-zones in Europe. They'll be nice. Haven't you noticed a complete lack of actual powerplay, only fearmoning rhetoric. You guys are safe, might hurt a bit but not for long, year or so
A country within the EU cannot unilaterally make a deal with a country outside the EU. The EU makes deals as a bloc. When Switzerland tried to pick and choose, the EU told it to accept the basic deal as the foundation, or else skedaddle. Four freedoms or no access to the single market. The referendum was, in the Leave voters' minds, fundamentally about one of those freedoms.
As for lack of powerplay, that's because the EU position is that there will be no negotiations until article 50 is invoked. So there will be no deals until we invoke the ticking clock. And even without invoking the formal exit article, our economy is already rolling off a cliff. It'll be a straight drop when we do invoke it. Everyone who will be negotiating knows this.
"A nexit is unrealistic no matter how much I would like to see it"
Which is why exit-mongering from a distance as you did is irresponsible and disgusting. Like I said before the referendum, you get to see the results, but you don't have to pay the price.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Papewaio
Which is why the referendum is just another poll.
Yes most modern populist politicians chase polls. However they do not always do what the citizen voter wants.
A) Is there a delta in referendum particaption and normal votes? 72% vs 65%. So 10% aren't voting for an MP to do something.
B) corporate interests - campaigns cost money...
C) party interests - half a dozen of A six of B
D) national interests - aka leadership despite the above
Worst of all, one of the politicians was actively encouraging the voters to disregard the advice of experts, and by extension to disregard evidence and rational argument. "I think this country has had enough of experts". I think this is fundamentally the most irresponsible and damaging line I've heard a politician utter in my lifetime.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Pannonian
"A nexit is unrealistic no matter how much I would like to see it"
Which is why exit-mongering from a distance as you did is irresponsible and disgusting. Like I said before the referendum, you get to see the results, but you don't have to pay the price.
A nexit is unrealistic because despite the Freedom-party being by far the biggest party in polls nobody will coorperate with them, it's not impossible because it will have consequences, we can't even handle the demand as it is Rotterdam-harbour would have to be twice as big, it going to take at least 50 years before others can even muse about catching up. It's all politics.
As for the rest I think you are overly pessimistic
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Greyblades
It was the responsibility of the government to plan for both results in a referendum they had planned to hold for over a year, that they didnt plan for the outcome they didn't want is thier failing, not the failing of the people who voted that way in the referendum.
Why would leavers accept a plan by a remain government? I don't follow extremely Eurocentric issues like this but sounds like "give me some matches so I can light a fire under your ass for takeoff."
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Because it's not supposed to be a remain government, they got in on the promise of the referendum.
That they now want to go back on it probably tells you how electable they will be in 2020.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Pannonian
Four freedoms or no access to the single market. The referendum was, in the Leave voters' minds, fundamentally about one of those freedoms.
No it bloody well wasn't - as IA already pointed out, immigration was not the most prevalent reason for voting Leave so stop banging that bloody drum.
As to not invoking Article 50 - the EU has refused to negotiate at all unless we invoke it and now the big powers, after a week, are saying we can't negotiate a trade deal without first negotiating an exit deal - which begs the question of what the point of an exit deal is.
At the same time our MEPs have been sent home, our Prime Minister is excluded from EU talks and our commissioner has resigned.
It's very clear at this point that we're going to be forced to invoke Article 50, regardless of an election or a change in public opinion.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
No it bloody well wasn't - as IA already pointed out, immigration was not the most prevalent reason for voting Leave so stop banging that bloody drum.
As to not invoking Article 50 - the EU has refused to negotiate at all unless we invoke it and now the big powers, after a week, are saying we can't negotiate a trade deal without first negotiating an exit deal - which begs the question of what the point of an exit deal is.
At the same time our MEPs have been sent home, our Prime Minister is excluded from EU talks and our commissioner has resigned.
It's very clear at this point that we're going to be forced to invoke Article 50, regardless of an election or a change in public opinion.
And at that point, we'll have 2 years to negotiate a new trade deal with the EU, where 50% of our exports go, or default to WTO trade conditions. How long did Canada and the EU take to agree on a trade deal? 7 years wasn't it?
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Pannonian
And at that point, we'll have 2 years to negotiate a new trade deal with the EU, where 50% of our exports go, or default to WTO trade conditions. How long did Canada and the EU take to agree on a trade deal? 7 years wasn't it?
These deals will come, the UK is way to important to dismiss, especially as a Nato-partner for anyone involved. Do you think it's a coincidemce that the eurpian commision is suddenly talking to Erdogan's Turkey, that's desperation. Clueless and in panic. Just call their bluff.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
And at that point, we'll have 2 years to negotiate a new trade deal with the EU, where 50% of our exports go, or default to WTO trade conditions. How long did Canada and the EU take to agree on a trade deal? 7 years wasn't it?
Ah, no.
You must have missed the article I quoted.
We have two years to negotiate an Exit, then they'll let us negotiate on trade.
Allegedly.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
These deals will come, the UK is way to important to dismiss, especially as a Nato-partner for anyone involved. Do you think it's a coincidemce that the eurpian commision is suddenly talking to Erdogan's Turkey, that's desperation. Clueless and in panic. Just call their bluff.
The EU are much bigger than we are. The exports of each individual country to us are a miniscule fraction of their economy, compared with the 50% of our exports that go to them. Under WTO tariffs, our goods won't be competitive, so we lose that 50%, meaning our economy goes even further down the drain than it has already. We desperately need a trade deal. Them, not so much. Remember that post I made above about what happens when one negotiating partner is much bigger than the other, when the smaller partner starts with a bad hand, and there is a deadline to meet? The German finance minister has already described this scenario, ahead of any talks on trade, which won't begin until we invoke article 50.
The Leavers have screwed our economy good and proper.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
The EU are much bigger than we are. The exports of each individual country to us are a miniscule fraction of their economy, compared with the 50% of our exports that go to them. Under WTO tariffs, our goods won't be competitive, so we lose that 50%, meaning our economy goes even further down the drain than it has already. We desperately need a trade deal. Them, not so much. Remember that post I made above about what happens when one negotiating partner is much bigger than the other, when the smaller partner starts with a bad hand, and there is a deadline to meet? The German finance minister has already described this scenario, ahead of any talks on trade, which won't begin until we invoke article 50.
The Leavers have screwed our economy good and proper.
Still ignoring the important bit, I see?
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
HopAlongBunny
I met Joe Strummer in Liverpool in '77 and ended up sleeping in his bed. True.
I prefer this one though.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuSrMMANP_U&list=PLw8I74P--tlUjSBeipBPiJ6J4RV5f_3ks&index=2
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Still ignoring the important bit, I see?
The bit where trade negotiations begin after we trigger the exit article?
The EU won't begin trade negotiations until we formally exit. That means no soft landing and no preparations. But once we formally exit, we have only a limited period of time in which to arrange new deals. We'll have current-ish conditions until that period is done, but at the end of it, if we don't manage to get a deal done, we'll default to WTO tariffs. Which will make our exports, 50% of which goes to the EU, uncompetitive. The onus is on us to get it done, as the EU, which negotiates as a bloc nearly 10 times our size, can absorb this change without blinking. That means lots of concessions on our part, and rather fewer on the EU's part. They may even decide to make an example of us and hold out for an exceptionally bad deal for us. Which we can't really refuse as we're faced with the prospect of losing nearly 50% of our export market once the 2 year period is done.
The prospects once we trigger article 50 are grim. The politicians know this, so they're trying to hold off, do anything except trigger that 2 year deadline. Which puts off the pain in the immediate present, but which means uncertainty, which means companies are redirecting investment and jobs to more stable countries. Which is already happening.
Of course, we can keep our export goods competitive by drastically reducing wages and regulations to second or third world standards, thus reducing costs. Or getting rid of the NHS and other government funded services, thus allowing the government to reduce the tax burden. If we drop living standards and investment in the country, we might be able to make this work.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
They would love to make an example of you, but you are just going to be an example of how fractured europe really is. Do you honestly think that trade-deals aren't already made as we speak. The UK killed only the ideological EU, or at least really damaged it really badly, kudos for that it was needed. Trade will continue the EC is dickless.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Originally Posted by
Fragony
Trade will continue the EC is dickless.
That one goes down really well with the whole "Dictate of the unelected EC needs to stop because it changes our lives too much!"
http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/29/news...one-uk-brexit/
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British industry giant Vodafone (VOD) says it's considering moving its headquarters out of the U.K. following last week's shock referendum result.
The loss of the company, whose stock helps anchor the benchmark FTSE 100, would be a stinging blow for a country that is struggling to come to terms with the economic consequences of a vote to divorce its European neighbors.
Vodafone said in a statement that Britain's EU membership has "been an important factor" in its growth. It added that bedrock EU principles including freedom of movement of people, capital and goods are all vital for regional companies.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
It's just true, the adieu of a EU-founder leaving is the achiles-heel of ideoligists who never get any furthed than demonising everything they don't like and furiously claim the posr-war peace. There is no pax EU. Timber mia muca, EU is a monster.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
It's just true, the adieu of a EU-founder leaving is the achiles-heel of ideoligists who never get any furthed than demonising everything they don't like and furiously claim the posr-war peace. There is no pax EU. Timber mia muca, EU is a monster.
A monster that can't do anything, yes, sounds terrible.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
A monster that can't do anything, yes, sounds terrible.
What they can't do at the moment doesn't change what they want. National democratically elected governments are only a nuissance for the fourth reich
literal quote by Juncker: we decide step by step until there is no turning back
Brits stepped out in time. EU = neo-facism
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
What they can't do at the moment doesn't change what they want. National democratically elected governments are only a nuissance for the fourth reich
And that's because national democratically elected governments created it and choose all its leaders?
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
And that's because national democratically elected governments created it and choose all its leaders?
Feel free to think so
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
And a poll says that two thirds of Leave voters would be happy to lose access to the single market if it means an end to EU migration. This means the Brexit negotiators won't be able to accept freedom of movement as part of a package to retain single market access. Which means custom trade deals as I described above will be necessary, with the ramifications as I've also described.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
And a poll says that two thirds of Leave voters would be happy to lose access to the single market if it means an end to EU migration. This means the Brexit negotiators won't be able to accept freedom of movement as part of a package to retain single market access. Which means custom trade deals as I described above will be necessary, with the ramifications as I've also described.
Unemployment is the ultimate form of freedom.
Late edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
Feel free to think so
Es muss sein!
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
I don't want to day I'm done with the Brexit because I feel it is interesting but now the vote is over and it's just rehashing. It was fun to discuss things before and after the vote but now the votes over. Until something else happens like a government shift, someone actually resigns, an article 50 thing or a huge move in the market, it's all just waiting for me.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
They got told the same thing last year. And we'll be told the same thing too. Which, given that immigration is the key issue for Leavers, means no single market access and no bespoke trade access, but whatever we can beg for in the 2 year negotiating period.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
They're consistant, at least.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Now Farage has resigned too.
I'll put it cautiously: There is a slight possibility that integrity and political calibre of the head figures of the Leave camp are not entirely above reproach.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Job well done, results in. I don't really see a role for him anymore so maybe it's the best this way.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
I of the Storm
Now Farage has resigned too.
I'll put it cautiously: There is a slight possibility that integrity and political calibre of the head figures of the Leave camp are not entirely above reproach.
That's a given with any group with Gove a head figure, though I dont remember anyone actually voting for him, he sort of jumped on the bandwagon and the media just decided he was a leader.
Farage is done, he was a one issue politician and with that issue resolved he's retired, wish some other politicians had such an attitude.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Why?
If you don't explain your problem with it, it's hard to talk about it.
Are you saying the EU should apply the rules you want it to? Why can't a sovereign trade block apply the rules it wants to apply when it makes a treaty? Why should a trade partner be given all the advantages with no responsibilites?
It's not like these EU rules were a secret and noone could expect that. It's called being consistent as you said.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
It's of zero consequence and the eurocrtats know that very. As for your quextion when would you consider using a weapon justified, to defend yourselve or use it to get what you want. It's obviously not a question for eurocrats. But they have no weapon.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
It's of zero consequence and the eurocrtats know that very. As for your quextion when would you consider using a weapon justified, to defend yourselve or use it to get what you want. It's obviously not a question for eurocrats. But they have no weapon.
You use a weapon to defend yourself and money to get what you want. Any other quextions?
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
One thing we can agree on that happened with this referendum result... British politics is getting destroyed.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
You use a weapon to defend yourself and money to get what you want. Any other quextions?
Yes what are you wearing right now
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
Yes what are you wearing right now
Underwear and overwear.
Anything else?
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
And a poll says that two thirds of Leave voters would be happy to lose access to the single market if it means an end to EU migration. This means the Brexit negotiators won't be able to accept freedom of movement as part of a package to retain single market access. Which means custom trade deals as I described above will be necessary, with the ramifications as I've also described.
That pretty much confirms what I already suspected.
Most people dislike the EU's remoteness to voters and their opaque bureaucracy, even those in the Remain camp. That's not in itself enough to support an exit from the EU. A large part of the Brexit camp simply does not like Poles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
They broke the existing agreements and had it coming. The voters knew this, or at least had no excuse for not knowing.
Honestly, what else could you expect?
To be fair, instead of full-blown internal market access the UK could try to negotiate (and plausibly get) associated status, similar to what Turkey and some north African countries get. It would be a lot better than defaulting on WTO trading terms, but still a net loss compared to the status quo.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Not that sure about the brexit camp disliking Polish people it sounds like framing to me, attempting to make brexit supporters look lower-class white-trash. Maybe some are but most probably aren't, just ordinary people who (rightfully) hate being told what to do by the ultra-undemocratic EU, and legitimate worries about the tsunami of migrants from islamic countries and how the childless mutti wants everyone to fix things for her, the brexit-camp doesn't exist of intellectual lightweights they have a good story, remain-camp never got any further than insunuations.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Sadly there will allways be the sort of idiot that cannot tell the blame for unrestrained immigration lies not with the poles coming but the politicians letting them in. But as exhibited they are a tiny minority.
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Honestly, what else could you expect?
Realize ther demands for freedom of movement are unreasonable with the situation they have created and stop demanding it?
I'm just pointing out how the EU is still sticking to the same behaviour that drove the UK out 2 weeks later , They are rather slow learners.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
Underwear and overwear.
Anything else?
So no middlewear?:crazy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
I'm just pointing out how the EU is still sticking to the same behaviour that drove the UK out 2 weeks later , They are rather slow learners.
Like many British who hold pro-EU demonstrations NOW while it should gave been done BEFORE the referendum.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
Not that sure about the brexit camp disliking Polish people it sounds like framing to me, attempting to make brexit supporters look lower-class white-trash. Maybe some are but most probably aren't, just ordinary people who (rightfully) hate being told what to do by the ultra-undemocratic EU, and legitimate worries about the tsunami of migrants from islamic countries and how the childless mutti wants everyone to fix things for her, the brexit-camp doesn't exist of intellectual lightweights they have a good story, remain-camp never got any further than insunuations.
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
When you make an entire post with no real argument and then accuse "the other side" of not having any arguments....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Sadly there will allways be the sort of idiot that cannot tell the blame for unrestrained immigration lies not with the poles coming but the politicians letting them in. But as exhibited they are a tiny minority.
You may blame the politicians but you're still saying you want no Poles.
Unless you actually meant poles, in which case you shouldn't have sold all the steel works to China.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Realize ther demands for freedom of movement are unreasonable with the situation they have created and stop demanding it?
I'm just pointing out how the EU is still sticking to the same behaviour that drove the UK out 2 weeks later , They are rather slow learners.
Their demands are reasonable, it's the English who have to realize that their Brexit is unreasonable and that sticking to this xenophobic behavior means not having a future. But they pride themselves on being slow learners ("Our democracy developed so slowly but it's so great now!"), so....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gilrandir
So no middlewear?:crazy:
There's no future for the middlewear, it's all replaced by digitalization.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
You may blame the politicians but you're still saying you want no Poles.
Unless you actually meant poles, in which case you shouldn't have sold all the steel works to China.
No I want fewer poles, and anything else for that matter, I find to allow immigration to reamain greater than jobs and housing growth to be counter productive whne trying to tackle the problem of unemployment and homelessness.
Quote:
Their demands are reasonable, it's the English who have to realize that their Brexit is unreasonable and that sticking to this xenophobic behavior means not having a future. But they pride themselves on being slow learners ("Our democracy developed so slowly but it's so great now!"), so....
Your definition of unreasonable is abnormal, no wonder those that share it are making the EU unpopular.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Of course I have arguments Hussie, and if you disagree with them you plunge the world into chaos and hate peace, and are probably gay.
I am just as good as europhiles in debating.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
No I want fewer poles, and anything else for that matter, I find to allow immigration to reamain greater than jobs and housing growth to be counter productive whne trying to tackle the problem of unemployment and homelessness.
How many is fewer and why are people in Britain homeless in the first place? Are you saying there were no unemployed or homeless people in Britain before the Poles came? Tell me at which point before the Poles came you would have solved this and how that would have worked. There has to be something, such as steadily decreasing rates and/or an increase when the Polish flood came or something like that, no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Your definition of unreasonable is abnormal, no wonder those that share it are making the EU unpopular.
Your definition of unreasonable is unreasonable, no wonder you Brexiters are wrong and incredibly unpopular outside England.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
Of course I have arguments Hussie, and if you disagree with them you plunge the world into chaos and hate peace, and are probably gay.
I am just as good as europhiles in debating.
So far we aren't really debating, you just make statements and assure me that you have arguments which you never seem to mention. So I say you're wrong. And why do you mention being gay in the same sentence as a lot of bad things? Are you insinuating that being gay is a bad thing?
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
No I want fewer poles, and anything else for that matter, I find to allow immigration to reamain greater than jobs and housing growth to be counter productive whne trying to tackle the problem of unemployment and homelessness.
Your definition of unreasonable is abnormal, no wonder those that share it are making the EU unpopular.
So much for the protestations that it was sovereignty that drove the Brexit vote. Sooner or later Brexiters let slip that it's all about the foreigners in their midst, taking their jobs and houses.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Realize ther demands for freedom of movement are unreasonable with the situation they have created and stop demanding it?
No, what is unreasonable is breaking a deal and then accusing the other side of being unreasonable for responding in kind.
If anything it speaks well of the EU that they're putting their foot down. Countries get away with violating the rules too often as it is. If the Swiss people don't want free movement of persons then the EU single market is not suited for them and they should negotiate for a less far reaching agreement instead; i.e. a trade agreement and nothing more.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
How many is fewer and why are people in Britain homeless in the first place? Are you saying there were no unemployed or homeless people in Britain before the Poles came? Tell me at which point before the Poles came you would have solved this and how that would have worked. There has to be something, such as steadily decreasing rates and/or an increase when the Polish flood came or something like that, no?
EU migrants, as a group, contribute more in taxes than they draw in benefits. The British state, and by extension the British people, profit from the EU migrant demographic in the UK. If the British government has not been using that profit wisely, that's the responsibility of the British government, not the EU. But it's easier to blame the foreigners.
Unlike the EU migrant population in the UK, which is mostly young and working and thus tax paying, I'd imagine the British demographic in, let's say Spain, is considerably older and less of a net positive fiscally. Any negotiations about the deportation of EU citizens from the UK will probably see the reciprocal expulsion of these UK immigrants (so-called "ex-pats") back to the UK, with the loss of tax paying EU citizens and the addition of non-tax-paying UK citizens.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
So much for the protestations that it was sovereignty that drove the Brexit vote. Sooner or later Brexiters let slip that it's all about the foreigners in their midst, taking their jobs and houses.
Have you considered the brexiters are human being and capable of having more than one reason for wanting something done? Have you considered that you can hold opinions on immigration that arent "let them all in" and still not be a racist?
Have you considered that you are wasting everyones time with such idiotic insinuations?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kralizec
No, what is unreasonable is breaking a deal and then accusing the other side of being unreasonable for responding in kind.
If anything it speaks well of the EU that they're putting their foot down. Countries get away with violating the rules too often as it is. If the Swiss people don't want free movement of persons then the EU single market is not suited for them and they should negotiate for a less far reaching agreement instead; i.e. a trade agreement and nothing more.
Isnt that what they're trying to do, renegociate? And the EU is refusing to trade without enforcing freedom of movment, so yeah unreasonable.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
A lot of immigrants from eastern Europe come to work yeah. But taken as a whole 80% of the immigrants still live on wealthfar after 10 years, that's here mind you, it costs billions a year
The childless mutti's litttle children will never stop being a burden at best, but a lot who followed her birdcall think a little hmmmm different about some things, ghetto import
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
Unlike the EU migrant population in the UK, which is mostly young and working and thus tax paying, I'd imagine the British demographic in, let's say Spain, is considerably older and less of a net positive fiscally. Any negotiations about the deportation of EU citizens from the UK will probably see the reciprocal expulsion of these UK immigrants (so-called "ex-pats") back to the UK, with the loss of tax paying EU citizens and the addition of non-tax-paying UK citizens.
To be fair, if they're retired, they just siphon their retirement money out of the UK and pay a lot of sales taxes in Spain while they're also helping the Spanish economy with their consumption (money which is then ideally/hopefully also used to pay corporate and income taxes). Income tax is not the only tax there is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Isnt that what they're trying to do, renegociate? And the EU is refusing to trade without enforcing freedom of movment, so yeah unreasonable.
How or why is it unreasonable? Is it not working for the EU so far?
You're just being unreasonable because the EU can demand what it want, you're free to not accept it, but if you say it's unreasonable you have to explain why exactly. So far you just repeat the claim that it were unreasonable without giving a good reason, that's unreasonable.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
A lot of immigrants from eastern Europe come to work yeah. But taken as a whole 80% of the immigrants still live on wealthfar after 10 years, that's here mind you, it costs billions a year
The childless mutti's litttle children will never stop being a burden at best, but a lot who followed her birdcall think a little hmmmm different about some things, ghetto import
There may be arguments for e Nexit. But those arguments don't apply to a Brexit. EU migrants pay more in taxes to the British state than they claim in benefits. The UK's main problems with immigration come from non-EU migrants. Which has been under the full control of the UK government all this time, outside the EU's responsibility.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
How or why is it unreasonable? Is it not working for the EU so far?
You're just being unreasonable because the EU can demand what it want, you're free to not accept it, but if you say it's unreasonable you have to explain why exactly. So far you just repeat the claim that it were unreasonable without giving a good reason, that's unreasonable.
Is it working so far? There's a camp in calais, a multitude of ghettos and an ongoing terrorist campaign that indicate otherwise. That's not even getting into the issue of employment and housing. Christ we've been going on about this topic for months any reasonable person would think it would have sunk in that freedom of movment wasnt such a cool idea when you started to include poor nations and any random migrant that managed to cross the border.
Also I dont get why you and pannonian keep going on about it being their right to do so, as if that has an automatic "reasonable" stamp.
You have the right to burn your larder in a famine but it is still unreasonable for you to do so.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Is it working so far? There's a camp in calais, a multitude of ghettos and an ongoing terrorist campaign that indicate otherwise. That's not even getting into the issue of employment and housing. Christ we've been going on about this topic for months any reasonable person would think it would have sunk in that freedom of movment wasnt such a cool idea when you started to include poor nations and any random migrant that managed to cross the border.
Also I dont get why you and pannonian keep going on about it being their right to do so, as if that has an automatic "reasonable" stamp.
You have the right to burn your larder in a famine but it is still unreasonable for you to do so.
How is all that the EU's responsibility? All that you talk about has been within the UK government's power to do something about it, even inside the EU.
And AFAIK, it's free movement of labour, not free movement of individuals. The UK never signed up to the Schengen zone which allows free movement of individuals. The UK has rules in place to ensure that EU citizens in the UK are indeed labour, or else self-sufficient. Otherwise they lose residency rights.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Is it working so far? There's a camp in calais, a multitude of ghettos and an ongoing terrorist campaign that indicate otherwise. That's not even getting into the issue of employment and housing. Christ we've been going on about this topic for months any reasonable person would think it would have sunk in that freedom of movment wasnt such a cool idea when you started to include poor nations and any random migrant that managed to cross the border.
So then if London wants to wall itself off from the poor areas around it, that is perfectly reasonable, too. After all that would help London fight its unemployment and homelessness. Obviously a homeless Londoner is more important to a fellow Londoner than a homeless guy from Leeds for example. Opening London up to all the unemployed and homeless poor people from Leeds is not gonna help London solve its problems.
Having nations instead of tribes really wasn't such a cool idea when they began to include poor tribes, was it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Also I dont get why you and pannonian keep going on about it being their right to do so, as if that has an automatic "reasonable" stamp.
You have the right to burn your larder in a famine but it is still unreasonable for you to do so.
The issue is that you still haven't explained what you mean by reasonable. As I've shown above, making up arbitrary borders and saying that it is only reasonable to help the people within one, is not reasonable because one can make up other arbitrary borders until Kingdom come. Even within your country the rich may build walled houses and ask why they should help the poor people who live outside the walls of their house. This happens every day and you still don't see that this wouldn't somehow magically not be so if you just had a glorious nation state.
Why do you think tax evasion exists? Because your fellow British nationals who are rich are so much more eager to help your homeless and unemployed than the EU bureaucrats? What is the major reason tax evasion is possible? The existence of other nation states and the non-cooperation between them.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
The Bank of England is trying to stay ahead of events:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36712040
I guess whether it acts as a cushion or stimulus will depend on what the government actually does.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
I have to say it is reassuring that the Bank of England is trying to mitigate the damage, it was the only thing that came out of the referendum actually looking competent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
How is all that the EU's responsibility? All that you talk about has been within the UK government's power to do something about it, even inside the EU.
I was unaware that the UK was capable of making merkel shut up about all the free stuff europe was willing to give those who wanted a handout, nor was I aware that the UK was responsible for the entire continent's counter terrorism effort or had sole control over it's immigration controls.
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And AFAIK, it's free movement of labour, not free movement of individuals. The UK never signed up to the Schengen zone which allows free movement of individuals. The UK has rules in place to ensure that EU citizens in the UK are indeed labour, or else self-sufficient. Otherwise they lose residency rights.
Free movment of labour means that instead of training the locals companies can just import skilled labour into the nation from elsewhere, great for the immigrant not so great for the local who is having a hard enough time getting a job as it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
So then if London wants to wall itself off from the poor areas around it, that is perfectly reasonable, too. After all that would help London fight its unemployment and homelessness. Obviously a homeless Londoner is more important to a fellow Londoner than a homeless guy from Leeds for example. Opening London up to all the unemployed and homeless poor people from Leeds is not gonna help London solve its problems.
Having nations instead of tribes really wasn't such a cool idea when they began to include poor tribes, was it?
Nations are tribes, just expanded to larger size, a tribe has a resposibility to help its own before it helps others, that London has 2.2 out of 5.4 million of it's electorate that has voted in a way that indicates at least some of them have forgotten or never learned what tribe they are gives a rather depressing commentary on the effects of propagating the idea of multiculturalism.
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The issue is that you still haven't explained what you mean by reasonable. As I've shown above, making up arbitrary borders and saying that it is only reasonable to help the people within one, is not reasonable because one can make up other arbitrary borders until Kingdom come. Even within your country the rich may build walled houses and ask why they should help the poor people who live outside the walls of their house. This happens every day and you still don't see that this wouldn't somehow magically not be so if you just had a glorious nation state.
Why do you think tax evasion exists? Because your fellow British nationals who are rich are so much more eager to help your homeless and unemployed than the EU bureaucrats? What is the major reason tax evasion is possible? The existence of other nation states and the non-cooperation between them.
The borders are not arbitrary to those who actually value a culture, that's the point.
It is detrimental for the EU to push hard on a major issue that previous pushes resulted in it's weakening.
Continuing to allow freedom of movment will increased unemployment of the swiss people, not to mention the increased risk of terrorism that comes with some of the immigrants.
Free trade agreements do not require freedom of movement aside from those operating the mode of goods delivery, it is an arbitrary addition added for the sake of ideals.
The EU expects a country to keep hurting itself for the sake of the ideals of the people running the EU commission, knowing that it is an arbitrary ideal and that pushing it likely to further weaken itself.
Coercing a nation into a path of mutual damage for an ideal of a minority detached from reality: that is what I mean by unreasonable.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Nations are tribes, just expanded to larger size, a tribe has a resposibility to help its own before it helps others, that London has 2.2 out of 5.4 million of it's electorate that has voted in a way that indicates at least some of them have forgotten or never learned what tribe they are gives a rather depressing commentary on the effects of propagating the idea of multiculturalism.
The EU is a tribe, just expanded to a larger size. Just look at the EC as the village elders and everything is fine. :dizzy2:
And who says that this is the responsibility of a tribe?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
The borders are not arbitrary to those who actually value a culture, that's the point.
So you agree that Scotland should secede because it has a different culture?
Or are you saying that the people in Lemiers for example, should be separated by a border wall due to their completely different culture?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
It is detrimental for the EU to push hard on a major issue that previous pushes resulted in it's weakening.
So you're saying that people other than the British think just like the British right after you said that cultures are too different across borders?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Continuing to allow freedom of movment will increased unemployment of the swiss people, not to mention the increased risk of terrorism that comes with some of the immigrants.
Free trade agreements do not require freedom of movement aside from those operating the mode of goods delivery, it is an arbitrary addition added for the sake of ideals.
The EU expects a country to keep hurting itself for the sake of the ideals of the people running the EU commission, knowing that it is an arbitrary ideal and that pushing it likely to further weaken itself.
Coercing a nation into a path of mutual damage for an ideal of a minority detached from reality: that is what I mean by unreasonable.
But noone forces the Swiss to take the deal, they can also have no deal. That it actually hurts nations if they do take the deal is something you have to prove first. And why should a trade partner not be allowed to add things for the sake of idealism? Is the only ideal worth having to earn more money?
Is it then not logical for Polish people to demand freedom of movement so they can earn more money? Is it not Poland's first task to look after the well-being of its people, which requires freedom of movement? Why should Poland give up what it needs just so Switzerland can be better off?
The whole path of mutual damage is something you need to prove, too. How were the EU countries damaged since they made these deals?
As for "pushes" leading to a weakening of the EU, that's also not very concrete, the Brexit was one event, not several, so why plural? And how do you know that the Brexit weakens the EU? Maybe the EU will emerge stronger from it than it ever was, how can you know after two weeks and before anything actually happened?
What I see is a load of assumptions but no proof for anything. Everything you say is merely your opinion so far that you state as though it were a fact.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greyblades
I have to say it is reassuring that the Bank of England is trying to mitigate the damage, it was the only thing that came out of the referendum actually looking competent.
I was unaware that the UK was capable of making merkel shut up about all the free stuff europe was willing to give those who wanted a handout, nor was I aware that the UK was responsible for the entire continent's counter terrorism effort or had sole control over it's immigration controls.
Free movment of labour means that instead of training the locals companies can just import skilled labour into the nation from elsewhere, great for the immigrant not so great for the local who is having a hard enough time getting a job as it is.
Presumably you're not a fan of the proposed points system then. Since it allows skilled labour to enter this country, even after exiting the EU. It sounds like you're a hardliner, even by the Tory party's standards. No immigration at all, even if they're skilled and highly qualified workers that this country lacks.
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Re: UK referendum: Out and Lied to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pannonian
Presumably you're not a fan of the proposed points system then. Since it allows skilled labour to enter this country, even after exiting the EU. It sounds like you're a hardliner, even by the Tory party's standards. No immigration at all, even if they're skilled and highly qualified workers that this country lacks.
Clearly that industry is better in another country.
What about the jobs the locals refuse to do? Cleaning, Farmwork, and so on. Should we go without cleaners and farmhands?
Even then, upping those wages... it would be even cheaper to buy food from another country, for example. So those jobs are gone.
Ultimately, the best policy is to have no jobs at all.
