Israel kills to Maintain Blockade

The blockade is worthless Egypt will be opening it's border with Gaza.

Egypt opens border with Gaza to let aid through

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Wednesday June 02 2010
Egypt has opened its border with the Gaza Strip to let Palestinians cross, writes Nidal al-Mughrabi.

The decision, announced yesterday, prompted hundreds of people to race to the crossing point in the southern Gaza town of Rafah, although the gates remained closed.

Officials in Egypt and Gaza said the crossing would open today until further notice -- a step seen as an attempt by Cairo to deflect criticism of its role in imposing the blockade against Gaza.

Rafah is the only point on Gaza's borders not controlled by Israel.

Irish Independent

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

The blockade is worthless Egypt will be opening it's border with Gaza.

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That's not made it onto the BBC or AlJazeera (English) yet...

I just did a simple google Eygpt Gaza and got two links

Associated Press

Reuters

BBC Analysis/Report of What went Tactically Wrong

More details:

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...The soldiers, who had started to use stun grenades, then asked for permission to use their firearms. They were given the go-ahead.

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By whom?

Have you seen the list of banned items or partially banned on case by case basis :dizzy2: wtf found the link on economist website

http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/Hidd...trip060510.pdf

delete

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

I just did a simple google Eygpt Gaza and got two links

Associated Press

Reuters

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Thanks :bow:

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

Have you seen the list of banned items or partially banned on case by case basis :dizzy2: wtf found the link on economist website

http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/Hidd...trip060510.pdf

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fishing rods?

dried fruit?

musical instruments?

size A4 paper?

It would be hilarious if this were some script of an absurd movie, but it's real :inquisitive:

Were they on drugs while writing that list?

Why is size A3 paper not prohibited? Cleary, size A3 paper is also a dangerous weapon that can be used to kill, so why are such dangerous devices allowed?

:wall:

So, this blockade is defended by some of you because it is entirely justified to ban dangerous weapons like dried fruit, fresh meat, size A4 paper and fishing rods?

Rocket launchers are not on the list of prohibited items :laugh4:

Does Israel fear an invasion of a Palestine army, armed to the teeth with size A4 paper and dried fruit?

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Originally Posted by Andres

Why is size A3 paper not prohibited? Cleary, size A3 paper is also a dangerous weapon that can be used to kill, so why are such dangerous devices allowed?

:wall:

So, this blockade is defended by some of you because it is entirely justified to ban dangerous weapons like dried fruit, fresh meat, size A4 paper and fishing rods?

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Well... Have you considered the danger of Hamas creating glider borne spice bombs out of A4 paper, Cardamom, cumin, sage, coriander and ginger?

Honestly, the "Middle east question" fills me with such profound sadness. Israels' skill and apptitude for doing whatever the hell it likes is as upsetting as the idea of Jews being "pushed into the sea".

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Originally Posted by Andres

Does Israel fear an invasion of a Palestine army, armed to the teeth with size A4 paper and dried fruit?

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Hey, paper cuts hurt!

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Originally Posted by alh_p

Well... Have you considered the danger of Hamas creating glider borne spice bombs out of A4 paper, Cardamom, cumin, sage, coriander and ginger?

Honestly, the "Middle east question" fills me with such profound sadness. Israels' skill and aptitude for doing whatever the hell it likes is as upsetting as the idea of Jews being "pushed into the sea".

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Removed by picky moderator.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Andres

Does Israel fear an invasion of a Palestine army, armed to the teeth with size A4 paper and dried fruit?

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Fruit can be really nasty.

Well, you see, Andres, back in my day when the prerequisite of a British campaign was that the enemy should under no circumstances carry guns -- even spears made us think twice. The kind of people we liked to fight were two feet tall and armed with dry grass.

For example, Mboto Gorge was a bit of a nasty one -- ten thousand Watusi warriors armed to the teeth with kiwi fruit and guava halves. After the battle, instead of taking prisoners, we simply made a huge fruit salad. No, when I joined up, I never imagined anything as awful as this war.

I'd had fifteen years of military experience, perfecting the art of ordering a pink gin and saying "Do you do it doggy-doggy?" in Lebanese, and then suddenly four-and-a-half million heavily armed Syrians hoved into view. That was a shock, I can tell you.

Black adder goes forth.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Fruit can be really nasty.

Well, you see, Andres, back in my day when the prerequisite of a British campaign was that the enemy should under no circumstances carry guns -- even spears made us think twice. The kind of people we liked to fight were two feet tall and armed with dry grass.

For example, Mboto Gorge was a bit of a nasty one -- ten thousand Watusi warriors armed to the teeth with kiwi fruit and guava halves. After the battle, instead of taking prisoners, we simply made a huge fruit salad. No, when I joined up, I never imagined anything as awful as this war.

I'd had fifteen years of military experience, perfecting the art of ordering a pink gin and saying "Do you do it doggy-doggy?" in Lebanese, and then suddenly four-and-a-half million heavily armed Syrians hoved into view. That was a shock, I can tell you.

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yes as I recall it was a particularly sharp mango

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Originally Posted by Andres

So, this blockade is defended by some of you because it is entirely justified to ban dangerous weapons like dried fruit, fresh meat, size A4 paper and fishing rods?

Does Israel fear an invasion of a Palestine army, armed to the teeth with size A4 paper and dried fruit?

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Below a partial list of restricted items during the blockade of former Yugoslavia, including guidelines for inspecting inward shipping towards Yugoslavia, as was militarily enforced amongst others by the state of Belgium:

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Originally Posted by Resolution 787, UNSC

9. Decides, acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations, in order to ensure that commodites and products transshipped through the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) are not diverted in violation of resolution 757 (1992) , to prohibit the transshipment of crude oil, petroleum products, coal, energy-related equipment, iron, steel, other metals, chemicals, rubber, tyres, vehicles, aircraft and motors of all types unless such transshipment is specifically authorized on a case-by-case basis by the Committee established by resolution 724 (1991) under its no-objection procedure;


10. Further decides, acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations, that any vessel in which a majority or controlling interest is held by a person or undertaking in or operating from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) shall be considered, for the purpose of implementation of the relevant resolutions of the Security Council, a vessel of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) regardless of the flag under which the vessel sails;


11. Calls upon all States to take all necessary steps to ensure that none of their exports are diverted to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) in violation of resolution 757 (1992) ;


12. Acting under Chapters VII and VIII of the Charter of the United Nations, calls upon States, acting nationally or through regional agencies or arrangements, to use such measures commensurate with the specific circumstances as may be necessary under the authority of the Security Council to halt all inward and outward maritime shipping in order to inspect and verify their cargoes and destinations and to ensure strict implementation of the provisions of resolutions 713 (1991) and 757 (1992) ;


http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/docid/3b00f16634.html

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Or, technical lists can look very unreasonable, as does the boarding of ships of third parties.

Also, rather than comparisons with piracy in Somalia, Israel's actions are better compared to the legal basis, instruments, and deployment of force that, for example, our democracies used as little ago as last decade.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Removed by picky moderator.

~:smoking:

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What? Surely that was unneccessary? His comment was very witty. It was no worse than the moralistic hogwash in my post!

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Below a partial list of restricted items during the blockade of former Yugoslavia, including guidelines for inspecting inward shipping towards Yugoslavia, as was militarily enforced amongst others by the state of Belgium:

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a) that list is in no way comparable with the sillyness of the other list;
b) Belgium was working under UN mandate;
c) the way your quote is phrased, is vague enough and allows for a lenient application whereas the other lists clearly says "prohibited items", the only exception being when the items are destined for use by international organisations; which is far more strict than what you quote;
d) you quoted just a small part of that resolution; the resolution is much broader than just that;
e) off topic and completely irrelevant to the case at hand;
f) "hey, but you did something similar!" = 1) incorrect (see a) to d); 2) schoolyard rhetoric ("But the other kid did it too! So that makes my behaviour good! Boohoohoo!")

So, that leaves the question: what's your point, exactly? Or are we out of reasonable and relevant arguments? What's the next nonsensic thing you'll come up with? That I have to shut up because Belgium did nasty things to Congo in 1910?

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Originally Posted by Andres

You are charged with the following:

A
B
C
D
E
F

I summon you to court Monday 15th, July 2010.

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Is...is, is this what it feels like to be a at the receiving end of a letter from Andres the merciless lawyer? :hide:

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Originally Posted by Andres

what's your point, exactly?

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The sole point is the same that I made in several previous posts: it is an excruciatingly complicated world, with many different truths and considerations.

What is pettiness when viewed from one angle, becomes a necessity when seen from another. International law, blockades, the status of Gaza, of Israel - all are in much dispute, legally and politically.

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Originally Posted by Andres

So, this blockade is defended by some of you because it is entirely justified to ban dangerous weapons like dried fruit, fresh meat, size A4 paper and fishing rods?

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You could just as easily ask why they are letting anything to to them at all.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

You could just as easily ask why they are letting anything to to them at all.

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That too is a valid question. I already suggested above that the current blockade effort is either way too much or way too little.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

That too is a valid question. I already suggested above that the current blockade effort is either way too much or way too little.

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I should point out... I don't believe that the blockade is right, I'm not meaning to advocate a fuller blockade. But in a way, Israel would have a fair point in going ahead with one given the stance of Hamas towards them.

It's all very well to talk about international law and what not, but in reality things like that emerge because we live in a more peaceful world... they don't create it. Sure we can sit here in the west having genocided our way to becoming the homogenous, stable countries we are today, but the fact is there is still ethnic conflict going on in the rest of the world and these things are never resolved entirely peacefully.

Situation is:
Israel says the boats are full of dangerous terrorists with loads of weapons so they have to stop them.
To intercept these armed and dangerous terrorists they drop (roped) few men on board.
Then they are surprise that the dangerous terrorist attack them.
When overwhelm by the dangerous terrorist and their powerful weapons of selective destruction instead to withdraw and regroup (jumping in the water) they just killed the dangerous terrorists with no casualties from their side…
Having a little bit of armed conflict and army thingies, I think this full of …. flower soil.
If you drop men on a boat and the opposition is armed, they are slaughtered. No match, just a like in an exercise.
Israel telling the laws is even funnier in a way.

Israel is arrogant and chose the way of the force, as they know they will go away with it. They are drunk of power, and always privilege the coup de force, from colonies to grabbing lands, construction of the wall and destruction without any remorse of all Palestinian property and invading neighbours.

I was a supporter of Israel… What did they do with the dream? What did happened to the members or the heir of the Hagannah, Irgun and Stern, the survivors of Warsaw Ghetto? Where did they lose their souls? The hero of Entebbe become a sad and sinister clown unable to see a blunder…

They refuse any concession to the Palestinian Authority, and complain about Hamas. They created Hamas, at the first place. As the US created the Mudjahidin and Al Quaida, the doctor Frankenstein after the last electricity spell in his creature lost control on it…
But instead to choose the right policy, they just gave Hamas the image of the one defending the Palestinian honour at least, as the moderate Fatah received nothing for its involvement in peace talks…

EDIT: Removed hotlinked picture. Please host pictures yourself. BG

:D

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Originally Posted by Brenus

Israel is arrogant and chose the way of the force

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Sadly it seems like it wasn't with them...

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Originally Posted by Brenus

Situation is:
Israel says the boats are full of dangerous terrorists with loads of weapons so they have to stop them.
To intercept these armed and dangerous terrorists they drop (roped) few men on board.
Then they are surprise that the dangerous terrorist attack them.
When overwhelm by the dangerous terrorist and their powerful weapons of selective destruction instead to withdraw and regroup (jumping in the water) they just killed the dangerous terrorists with no casualties from their side…
Having a little bit of armed conflict and army thingies, I think this full of …. flower soil.
If you drop men on a boat and the opposition is armed, they are slaughtered. No match, just a like in an exercise.
Israel telling the laws is even funnier in a way.

Israel is arrogant and chose the way of the force, as they know they will go away with it. They are drunk of power, and always privilege the coup de force, from colonies to grabbing lands, construction of the wall and destruction without any remorse of all Palestinian property and invading neighbours.

I was a supporter of Israel… What did they do with the dream? What did happened to the members or the heir of the Hagannah, Irgun and Stern, the survivors of Warsaw Ghetto? Where did they lose their souls? The hero of Entebbe become a sad and sinister clown unable to see a blunder…

They refuse any concession to the Palestinian Authority, and complain about Hamas. They created Hamas, at the first place. As the US created the Mudjahidin and Al Quaida, the doctor Frankenstein after the last electricity spell in his creature lost control on it…
But instead to choose the right policy, they just gave Hamas the image of the one defending the Palestinian honour at least, as the moderate Fatah received nothing for its involvement in peace talks…

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There are protocols and procedures to follow when bording a ship. These are not created by hippies high on pot, they are created by seasoned captains who have personal experience on the field, and who recognize that panic and confusion is NOT what one wants when sending a small team in amongst a large crew, not for any of the sides.

If Israel had followed these procuderes, this operation would've been ordered and calm. There would be no confusion, no panic, no casaulties.

Instead, they chose to disregard all the accumulated wisdom and do it cowboy-style. Whether that's because of ignorance, malice or incompetence, I have no idea.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

There are protocols and procedures to follow when bording a ship. These are not created by hippies high on pot, they are created by seasoned captains who have personal experience on the field, and who recognize that panic and confusion is NOT what one wants when sending a small team in amongst a large crew, not for any of the sides.

If Israel had followed these procuderes, this operation would've been ordered and calm. There would be no confusion, no panic, no casaulties.

Instead, they chose to disregard all the accumulated wisdom and do it cowboy-style. Whether that's because of ignorance, malice or incompetence, I have no idea.

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Have to agree. Regardless of your views on the blockade, the choice to board, the location of the interception, etc., this will NOT go down in the annals of tactical brilliance -- though I suspect it will be a teachable moment for all involved in that line of work.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Have to agree. Regardless of your views on the blockade, the choice to board, the location of the interception, etc., this will NOT go down in the annals of tactical brilliance -- though I suspect it will be a teachable moment for all involved in that line of work.

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It gets better, appearently the first boarding attempt from boats was stopped by the crowd with water hoses, stun granades, boxes of plates and with the bars showing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6sAEYpHF24

After the crowd is showing clear signs of being riot level hostile, you decide that airdropping one and one into the hostile crowd is a good idea. Someone really messed up there, but then they messed up from the start as well.

There's also eyewitness reports of shooting live rounds before the airdrop, several of the killed was killed by headshots and several of the dead being journalists.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

I should point out... I don't believe that the blockade is right, I'm not meaning to advocate a fuller blockade. But in a way, Israel would have a fair point in going ahead with one given the stance of Hamas towards them.

It's all very well to talk about international law and what not, but in reality things like that emerge because we live in a more peaceful world... they don't create it. Sure we can sit here in the west having genocided our way to becoming the homogenous, stable countries we are today, but the fact is there is still ethnic conflict going on in the rest of the world and these things are never resolved entirely peacefully.

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excellent post.

and Seumus's too.

Was Israel the only government enforcing the blockade?

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

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Originally Posted by Brenus

Israel is arrogant and chose the way of the force

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Sadly it seems like it wasn't with them...

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Dark side I feel in them.. Sith they must be..