Pirates, Russia, Somalia...Politics....

Swedish source: the source is not much to go by.

But I (as of yet) havent found it reported elsewhere...

From Swedish media:

* Pirates attack russian ship outside of Somalia
* Pirates gain ship.
* Russian navy intercepts.
* Russian navy free the russian hostages and kill one terrorist while capturing 10.
* Russian navy has no way to charge the pirates in a legal court.
* Russian navy sets the pirates "free". <- and this is where the problem starts.

You know, freeing someone in the middle of the ocean isn't "all that cool" by some. Basicly, the pirates were left without navigational equipment on a boat in the middle of the ocean. The world at large has condemned Russia for the "inhuman treatment".




C'MON

Ok, so my 2 gc.

1. No. OF COURSE it can not be ok for anyone to just do anything they want. So YES, russia has no right to do anything on international/territorial waters.

2. Yes, OF COURSE it can not be ok for anyone to attack one of Russias ships and think they can get away with it.



So, the Russian navy, the Russian state... were they right or wrong?


The problem here is rather complex, or to translate it:

1. Pirates are scum and should be fought at any time no matter what..
2. XXXXX are scum and should be fought at any time no matter what..


I have no problem what so ever agreeing with post 1. I def do not cry when some drugged up somalis get taken down by russian forces.

So in this case, i would def give russia teh thumbs up.

However... If you elaborate a bit... If Russia can attack pirates, what stops the US from attacking, say... ... ... ... ... ... ...









PS: I could navigate a boat to land with the terms set by the russians. Yes, they had no navigational hardware left... But so what? There IS still a sky. and I am not even navy... I mean, if a poor army sergeant would feel confident about navigating (this) at sea... Then PIRATES should have no problems, right?

It would be like a NINJA asking me to teach him how to throw ninja-stars (shuriken).

In the words of Americans, Russia doesn't have a liberal infestation, so they can deal with the problems Wild West style.

its true.

Could be worse, I guess. The Russians could have hanged and gibbeted them. :hanged:

What Russia did deserves to be condemned publicly but congratulated in private. If the US did the same I would actually be quite against it because of course it would create even more negative publicity for the US, it would betray our proclaimed sense of moral superiority. Russia though, is a different beast, they have a history of being some bad SOB and frankly someone needs to be. Russia's methodology does work in the region, it's a method which used to be relatively effective against pirates though even back in the day pirates would be taken home tried and then hanged. Besides they have a repuation to maintain.

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In October 1985, Alfa was dispatched to Beirut, Lebanon, when four Soviet diplomats had been taken hostage by a Sunni militant group. By the time Alfa was onsite, one of the hostages had already been killed. The perpetrators and their relatives were identified by supporting KGB operatives, and the relatives were taken hostage. Following the standard policy of 'no negotiation', Alfa proceeded to sever some of their hostages' body parts and sent them to the perpetrators with a warning that more would follow if the Russian hostages were not released immediately. The tactic was a success and no other Russian national was taken hostage in the Middle East for the next 20 years,[2] until the 2006 abduction of Russian diplomats in Iraq.

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Link to Wiki site about Alfa

Guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't mind Russia playing "bad cop" once in a while. Russian ships are probably far less likely to be attacked by pirates in the near future.

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I mean, if a poor army sergeant would feel confident about navigating (this) at sea... Then PIRATES should have no problems, right?

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Of course you can navigate at sea, we all know that the Swedish army are just dismounts to hop out your longboats and pillage a good church or two.

I'm having this discussion on SimHQ(with a lot more conservative americans who find this quite hilarious and think all pirates should be excuted...), and I'll give you the short version.

IMO pirates, especially those who did not kill or harm the crew apart from locking them away or so, are criminals and deserve a trial in a court like all the other criminals do as well.
Killing people just to be badass or because they broke the law is just wrong and does not serve justice at all. Justice is served in a court, no matter how much proof you have, we do not shoot every bank robber here either. Maybe they do in Russia but then Russia isn't paradise as, ironically, conservative Americans(and they're the ones who seem to like what the Russians did the most) like to point out.

Anyway, these people are mostly fishermen who resort to blackmailing and robbing, since when do these two crimes justify shooting/otherwise killing a person without a trial in any western country? Why should we think it's fine in this case?

I am in the wrong business.

Reading up the laws on piracy, it seems to boil down to this: if they are in international waters and are not killed during an attack, there is virtually no way to try them for anything. It is a crime that isn't prosecuted. Some navies don't even bother detaining them because if they did, the pirates could claim asylum!

So, the potential to make 100s of thousands USD a year is there, with a surprisingly low degree of risk.

While I cannot read Swedish, your post prompted me to do a bit of research. Below are some quotes from a Wikipedia article about it.

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Legal authority

There are legal barriers to prosecuting individuals captured in international waters. Countries are struggling to apply existing maritime law, international law, and their own laws, which limits them to having jurisdiction over their own citizens. According to piracy experts, the goal is to "deter and disrupt" pirate activity, and pirates are often detained, interrogated, disarmed, and released. With millions of dollars at stake, pirates have little incentive to stop.

Prosecutions are rare for several reasons. Modern laws against piracy are almost non-existent. For example, the Dutch are using a 17th-century law against "sea robbery" to prosecute. Warships that capture pirates have no jurisdiction to try them, and NATO does not have a detention policy in place. Prosecutors have a hard time assembling witnesses and finding translators, and countries are reluctant to imprison pirates because they would be saddled with them upon their release.[87]

George Mason University professor Peter Leeson has suggested that the international community appropriate Somali territorial waters and sell them, together with the international portion of the Gulf of Aden, to a private company which would then provide security from piracy in exchange for charging tolls to world shipping through the Gulf.[88]

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While I agree that there are difficulties in the prosecution of pirates considering the facts, I disagree with the suggestions of Professor Leeson. It is a half measure, to say the least, and one that reeks of corruption ( a bit of piracy in it's own right). I would rather see an international naval coalition formed to guard against attacks in the vulnerable sea lanes.

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Law of nations

Piracy is of note in international law as it is commonly held to represent the earliest invocation of the concept of universal jurisdiction. The crime of piracy is considered a breach of jus cogens, a conventional peremptory international norm that states must uphold. Those committing thefts on the high seas, inhibiting trade, and endangering maritime communication are considered by sovereign states to be hostis humani generis (enemies of humanity).[101]

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I would say in light of this law, that the Russian Captain acted well within the spirit of the law, and for one to condemn his actions as inhumane is in complete ignorance of the law, not to mention taking a somewhat foolish position . Pirates have given up their right to the protection of the law by the very nature of their acts of violence. That these vermin were not summarily executed, but rather released at sea without navigation aids speaks well of the Russian's restraint.

I believe that they got much more than they deserved. Call me heartless, but I believe it was just. I hope they flounder in a storm. Navigation aids indeed!

PS: I am not a "conservative" in case anyone wants to know. Just a humble man who shuns evil and tries to embrace what is good.

There is a cure for this. In case like this there should be no surviving pirates from the attack. Case closed.

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Guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't mind Russia playing "bad cop" once in a while. Russian ships are probably far less likely to be attacked by pirates in the near future.

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Yes, it seems like one of those "how utilitarian do you want to be" scenarios.

They got there by boat, same way back au revoir

Poetic justice. Good on Russia.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Kagemusha

There is a cure for this. In case like this there should be no surviving pirates from the attack. Case closed.

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Absolutely, I also think software pirates should be shot on sight.
And little girls who got caught shoplifting.
These vermin don't deserve any better and the sight of their brains splattered on the floor would show the others of their kind that there is no future in their despicable activities.

[/sarcasm]

Top pocket, two pills.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Husar

Absolutely, I also think software pirates should be shot on sight.
And little girls who got caught shoplifting.
These vermin don't deserve any better and the sight of their brains splattered on the floor would show the others of their kind that there is no future in their despicable activities.

[/sarcasm]

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If little girls stole merchandise worth millions of dollars, and made the employees of the shop they were shoplifting hostages, then asked for a ransom of millions of dollars, and were caught and tried, we're looking between all Law Systems at a minimum of 15 years in jail to Jail for life/Death Penalty.

Now the pirates aren't little girls, and they aren't smuggling underpanties or donuts or romance books. They are hi-jacking cargo boats valued in the millions of dollars, then holding the crew as hostages, and using the legal hole in International water as protection. I find it extremely well done by the Russians and hope more countries start following it's example. It's not like the Russians sumarily executed them. They gave the pirates a boat, and left them to fend off for themselves. The pirates can theoretically still get back to land, so no harm done there. If they are stupid enough, they die. End of the story.

Well done.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Absolutely, I also think software pirates should be shot on sight.
And little girls who got caught shoplifting.
These vermin don't deserve any better and the sight of their brains splattered on the floor would show the others of their kind that there is no future in their despicable activities.

[/sarcasm]

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I really miss Devastatin' Dave in moments like this.

Should have given them a sextant and a pocket watch.

What I don't see is: why couldn't the pirates keep their navigation equipment? Disarming them was a good idea, but removing navigation equipment? Why was that necessary?

I don't think the idea was they make it safely home, to rearm and head off again.

I think the Ruskies were going for an indirect but ultimately final result.

~:smoking:

So a bunch of bankers and speculators stole millions of dollars by lending money to unworthy applicants just to receive big bonuses, then held the economy hostage, demanding bailouts, still caused a huge economic crisis that even drove some people into commiting suicide, guess they also deserve a shot in the neck?

You see, it's okay to shoot them if they resist arrest, want to shoot a hostage etc., but to execute them without trial after capturing them is just wrong and reeks of double standard. If the judge gives them a life sentence, fine, I won't argue with that, but get them to a judge in the first place. Some of them even treat their hostages well, doesn't mean it's not scary anyway etc. but certainly not equivalent to murder. And in most europeans countries we do not even kill people for murder.

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Originally Posted by Husar

So a bunch of bankers and speculators stole millions of dollars by lending money to unworthy applicants just to receive big bonuses, then held the economy hostage, demanding bailouts, still caused a huge economic crisis that even drove some people into commiting suicide, guess they also deserve a shot in the neck?

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Hee-hee. Hard to argue against that - just a matter of degree. Lesson? If yer gonna steal, steal BIG, and do it wearing a suit and tie.

I can go on, how about you watch this in the news:

A bunch of guys robbed a bank, are holding everybody inside hostage, demand two million ransom, it's a big bank in the middle of say, New York.
After some bargaining the police goes in, bank robbers give up, noone was harmed, the policemen bring them outside in handcuffs.
Next they make them kneel down in a line and shoot every single one of them in the back of the head.

Is that the kind of justice system we want to live in or that we want to propagate around the world?
To me it sounds awfully like what you'd expect from countries we constantly criticise for their lack of humans rights and subsequently call worse than ourselves.
And the bank robbery with hostage situation is the closest thing to this kind of piracy I can imagine, yet we do not execute them.

The Russians killed no one. They left the Pirates where they were found.

To use your analogy, outside the bank the robbers had their masks, guns and getaway vehicle impounded and were released to make their own way home, since there are no courts in the area with jurisdiction to try the robbers.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Husar

So a bunch of bankers and speculators stole millions of dollars by lending money to unworthy applicants just to receive big bonuses, then held the economy hostage, demanding bailouts, still caused a huge economic crisis that even drove some people into commiting suicide, guess they also deserve a shot in the neck?

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Here's Ambrose Bierce's definition of something:

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Corporation, noun; An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility.

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But yes, I believe they all should be put in jail or shot and all of their assets taken and redistributed between the State/population.

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You see, it's okay to shoot them if they resist arrest, want to shoot a hostage etc., but to execute them without trial after capturing them is just wrong and reeks of double standard. If the judge gives them a life sentence, fine, I won't argue with that, but get them to a judge in the first place. Some of them even treat their hostages well, doesn't mean it's not scary anyway etc. but certainly not equivalent to murder. And in most europeans countries we do not even kill people for murder.

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See, to that I ask "What judge?" The fundamental problem behind this is that they cannot be legally trialed. If they cannot be trialed then they must forcibly be released without any punishment for having attempted to hi-jack a boat, its cargo and crew and making these last ones hostages, and having been caught in the act. And since they know they cannot be trialed and must be released they keep doing that. If they successfully manage to hi-jack and get a ransom for a ship and crew, then they'll have enough money to buy a small boat and a handful of AKs, ammunition and one RPG easily, many, many times, over and over again.

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Originally Posted by Husar

And the bank robbery with hostage situation is the closest thing to this kind of piracy I can imagine, yet we do not execute them.

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Indeed.

I think leaving people to die of hunger and thirst in the middle of the ocean is criminal.


The problem is that there is no way to trie the pirates. We can't take them to Europe. It will not only be grossly expensive, but inevitably, we'll never get them returned to Somalia again. Somalia is a war zone, the pirates will have lived in Europe for years if they've served a long sentence. So they will be granted asylum. Then they'll receive a thousand euro benefit for the rest of their lives, be given a house, get to bring over their extended family for re-unification, mutilate their daughters, and hang outside all day long bothering, robbing and spitting at the locals because they don't have any meaningful skills with which to find a job anyway, nor much interest in aquiring any.

And there are only so many million of those we can handle.

Receiving a fair trail in Europe would be like winning the jackpot. There won't be a Somalian left who wouldn't trust himself on any European ship he can get to.
[/rant]



We should really bribe Kenya to let us organise trials for pirates there, to incarcerate them there, and then send them back directly over the border to Somalia at the end of their prison sentence.

Or Jamaica. Or Burma. Indonesia. There are loads of countries who would love hard cash to look after some prisoners. "Sadly", many might not live to be released from jail, but if they did then yes, send them back home.

~:smoking:

Good for the Russians.

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Somalia is a war zone, the pirates will have lived in Europe for years if they've served a long sentence. So they will be granted asylum. Then they'll receive a thousand euro benefit for the rest of their lives, be given a house, get to bring over their extended family for re-unification, mutilate their daughters, and hang outside all day long bothering, robbing and spitting at the locals because they don't have any meaningful skills with which to find a job anyway, nor much interest in aquiring any.

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That is absurd.

CR

Maybe they should have brought navigation equipment with them. How did they ever manage to navigate in the first place? Did they teleport onto the ship? Maybe next time they will keep their own boat in tow? Maybe they should have driven the tanker in a direction towards home?

Yeah, leaving them was "not humanitarianish."

But really, freaking funny.

They have to be discouraged somehow, and every one of them that makes it home unscathed makes even more want to be pirates.

Hopefully next, navies start marooning them on small islands or, even better, drop them in south america. Now that would be funny

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

That is absurd.

CR

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Welcome to the Euroweenian Union:

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THE Royal Navy, once the scourge of brigands on the high seas, has been told by the Foreign Office not to detain pirates because doing so may breach their human rights.
Warships patrolling pirate-infested waters, such as those off Somalia, have been warned that there is also a risk that captured pirates could claim asylum in Britain.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3736239.ece

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Somali pirates embrace capture as route to Europe

Somali pirates might be allowing themselves to be deliberately captured in order to take advantage of European asylum laws, Dutch legal experts have warned

Pirates captured after attacking a Dutch vessel have gone on trial in the liberal Netherlands and at least two of them have declared their intention to stay on as residents.
Geert-Jan Knoops, an international criminal law attorney and professor at the Royal University of Utrecht, has suggested that the Dutch trial might encourage pirates to surrender just in order to seek a better life in Western countries.

"These trials may trigger other pirates to let themselves be arrested on purpose," he told the Volkskrant newspaper. "The Dutch Justice department must be cautious. I cannot imagine the five alleged pirates would voluntarily return to Somalia after their conviction."

The five Somali pirates were arrested off the coast of Africa in January by Danish marines after attacking the Samanyulo, a Dutch-flagged cargo ship. But since Somalia has a record of international human rights violations it will be almost impossible to deport the men after their conviction in the Netherlands. "Life is good here," said one of the defendants, named Sayid, about his experience in a Dutch jail.
"I appeal to the government not to send me back to Somalia. The people who live here respect human rights. I wish to settle here." Willem-Jan Ausma, a Dutch defence attorney who is representing another pirate, described his client's relief to be in a Western prison.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...to-Europe.html

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

Hopefully next, navies start marooning them on small islands or, even better, drop them in south america. Now that would be funny

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We can dump them in America or Australia, as we used to do with our undesirables.