1.2 - further and farther, the Qin Dynasty??

You guys do a wonderful job for giving us this free mod, it is literally the only thing I play on my computer nowadays, but I was wondering if you we're taking it any further. I read somewhere and maybe I'm wrong that there is a 'hard-coded limit' on the number of provinces one can make for the game. I mean, there has to be someone somewhere who would be able to help crack it, that would be the first ggreat step for 1.2 and beyond. I'm writing this thou because I had the idea that maybe someday you guys could include in it all the way to China and the Qin dynasty, and really just how epic of a game that would be. I dunno maybe it's just a dream that can't be done any time close to now, but I'd like to hear what others have to say.

And once again you guys [ and maybe girls? ] do a wonderful job.

There is a hardcoded limit on provinces, hardcoded limit on factions, hardcoded limit on DMB enteries (units that can be incorporated)--the list goes on and on. EB has fulfilled every hardcoded limit I know of. Besides, the Qin Dynasty was founded several decades after the start of EB I believe.

Sorry if I just crushed your dreams.:smash:

sorry but many intelligent people have tried and failed to find away around the hard code limit of 200 provinces. Best just to accept you will never see the Romani swimming in the Yangtze. And anyways the territories of India would be much closer and had a much larger impact on factions in the EB realm than China ever did in this time period. I really don't understand the amount of sinophilia on these forums when the diverity of peoples allready present with in the map.

in the time of the start of EB
the warring states was hampening
it was between the Han Wei , Qin, Shu, Yan, Jian and some other with a lot of city states
TBH
itd be quite intersting but you would need to create an new engine and such to incorperate all of ancient world if u want to have China and rome

btw
Qin dynasty only lasted 20somthing years before rebels destroyed it and founded the Han Dynasty
(500+ years...righ?)
intesrting
but im pretty sure if it does get made somehow into a region in EB
itd just steamroll everyone
(at the time of EB, pop is certainly over 10 mil in ancient china)

:D

we have a mod in progress about that remember? Asia Ton Barbarum (AtB) , but it looks like they dont have many members , so it might take a while :sweatdrop:

hmm i thought asia ton barbarorum's got nothing to do with china....

Irishguy, if you want to see china so much, y dunt you try to start another EB spin off...er..like "Sina ton barbarorum"? ^^;;

That would be "Kina ton Barbaron"

(Κίνα) being the greek word for china after it was unified by the Qin, the land of "Seires" or "people of the silkworms"

What actually were the relationships between the Hellenic states and the Chinese? How much did they know of eachother?

icic, thanks for the correction kev.

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Originally Posted by Hax

What actually were the relationships between the Hellenic states and the Chinese? How much did they know of eachother?

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I know they traded a fair amount, plus later on when bit's of the Hellenic powers were repeatedly pwned by China (Indo-Greeks were destroyed by them).

D= but thats cuz they got greedy and decided to rob the Han envoy instead of trading...

here's an excerpt of shiji:

...遂 不 肯 予 漢 使 。 漢 使 怒 ， 妄 言 ， 椎 金 馬 而 去 。 宛 貴 人 怒 曰 ： 「 漢 使 至 輕 我 ！ 」 遣 漢 使 去 ， 令 其 東 邊 郁 成 遮 攻 殺 漢 使 ， 取 其 財 物 。 於 是 天 子 大 怒 。 諸 嘗 使 宛 姚 定 漢 等 言 宛 兵 弱 ， 誠 以 漢 兵 不 過 三 千 人 ， 彊 弩 射 之 ， 即 盡 虜 破 宛 矣 。 天 子 已 嘗 使 浞 野 侯 攻 樓 蘭 ， 以 七 百 騎 先 至...

...漢無攻我，我盡出良馬，姿所取，而給漢軍食。即不聽我，我盡殺善馬。

I'm not a very good translator, but this is basically what happened:

Wu-ti's initial attempt to trade the Celetial Horses with gold coins was rejected by the king of Fergana and the Han envoy sent for the negotiation was murdered and stripped. When the news arrived Chang'an, Wuti was furious and decided to take them by force. He appointed Li Guangli to lead the expedition. In 104 BC, Li Guangli set off with 3000 soldiers. However they were not able to defeat Fergana and forced to retreat to Dunhuang. There Li Guangli with only few remaining men waited for the reinforcements from Wu-ti. In 102 BC, Wu-ti embarked the second military campaign in an army of 60,000 men marching out towards Fergana. They reached the capital and successfully besieged it. The Han army cut off their water supply with sappers and kill many men that tried to sally forth. In the end the inhabitants could stand no more, killed their king and surrendered. They returned to China with a great haul of the famous Fergana steeds. Fergana provided them with the best celetial horses as well as 3000 ordinary stallions and mares.

I'd love to see the Chinese as well, but that doesn't make it any less of a bad idea.

The problem is that there was almost no military contact between China and the west, and for good reasons. The geographical barriers between them are very difficult to traverse for anyone who isn't a steppe nomad. Merchant caravans had a difficult time following the Silk Road, so how much harder it would have been for an army? If it did get through, they would have been so exhausted that the defenders had a field day. But even supposing that they somehow got through and managed to defeat the defenders, the attacking still would be completely isolated with limited communications and no chance of reinforcements. In one word, it's impossible. I think the team was right at putting the edge of the map where it is.

Off course, there is no real way of simulating this with the R:TW engine, so if you are going to include the Chinese, expect to see armies marching up and down the Silk Road like it was the Persian one. For these reasons, China will not be included even if there were no hardcoded limits. Incidentally, hardcoded limits cannot be changed without reverse-engineering the source code and changing the .exe file. This is illegal however, as the .exe file is essentially the game itself, and SEGA will not look kindly upon any attempt at distributing altered .exe files.

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Originally Posted by Che Roriniho

I know they traded a fair amount, plus later on when bit's of the Hellenic powers were repeatedly pwned by China (Indo-Greeks were destroyed by them).

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Er... That where the Yuezhi, not the Chinese. There was a Han army sent to Sogdiana IIRC, but they were there to harry the nomads, not to conquer.

However, there is no way to simulate a Sino-Roman conflict in a campaign - just custom battles, but why using a slot for a faction that will never be used in the campaign?

Not counting the fact that nobody would be interested in doing a war against a VERY FAR nation which has a few things to do with your one and that you may trade with, instead staying both alive and in peace... an attempt to invade Europe by China or Asia by Romans would be a logistical suicide due to the extremely long distance and the hostile territories in between.
The ways to go in a place or in the other one are four:

1) through Asian steppes. Well, if you think that a lot of armies would march through this land without suffering heat, lack of supplies, attacks by the nomads, exhaustion... you may just send only one cavalry-based army against those nomads, as Ban Chao did, but going further? Unfortunately no. Unless you do a reform so that your empire will become itself a large nomadic horde, then you may conquer the plains like the Huns or the Mongols.

2) through the Himalayan mountains. Only one word: ROTFL.

3) through India and then Indochina. But the first step is to conquer and fully mantain in order one of the most populated regions of the world (I don't think that local rulers would allow your armies to pass and resupply for a campaign in the far west/east), which may be as hard as defeating the steppe nomads. Then you'll have to march through jungle - and don't forget the guerrilla tactics that local soldiers may use.
Will your legionaries stay alive in enough numbers to start the invasion of China (or the opposite)? I think that the answer isn't very good for an hypothetical general that is attempting to cross the Indus or the Ganges. Even an Eastern Greek or an Eastern faction may be interested in India but completely reject any idea of attacking the Far East.

4) through the ocean, from the Red Sea/Persian Gulf to the Chinese sea. However, ancient ships weren't enough advanced to perform a so long, riskful travel. Besides, loaded troops will suffer many typical diseases that even the Portuguese travelers encountered... it would be a useless, suicidal trip.

And even if you would be there, you'll be alone. Reinforcements will take a looooong time to arrive in enough numbers, unrest in occupied lands will harass your troops as well as unkown diseases, you'll have no possibilities to communicate with your homeland, you'll have to rely only on yourself and your limitated supplies and unhappy, exhausted soldiers.

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Originally Posted by Hax

What actually were the relationships between the Hellenic states and the Chinese? How much did they know of eachother?

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Chinese knew of the Greeks in Ferghana valley (where Alexandreia Eschate is located) and called it Da Yuan, meaning "Great Ionia". Ionians or Yona( in persian) or Yavana( in Sanskrit) were a subtribe of the Greeks who lived in the western shores of Asia Minor. After the failed Ionian rebellion (which also led to the Persian wars between Achaimenid Persia and the greek city states) the surviving rebels were sent to Baktria mostly (Alexander found Greeks already living there when he invaded) and a few to India (Panini's grammar of Sanskrit mentions an example of a Yavana a century before Alexandros reached India).

-It has also been suggested that present day Begram in Afghanistan was originally Pergamon named as such by the Ionians of Pergamon resettled there-

Now back to the chinese and definite interactions between them and the Bactrians/IndoGreeks, well the answer is that all evidence pointing to that direction are inconclusive, but they do exist.

-IndoGreek coins that used a chinese analogy in their material.
-Many statues/artefacts in present day China which demonstrate that there was a definite connection between Bactria and Qin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampul_tapestry
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:UrumqiSoldier.jpg

There was also some questions as to whether there was some influence in the creation of the
Terracota army guarding First emperor Chi Huang Ti or Shi Huang Di (sorry for the incorrect spelling, not a Chinese speaker) had anything to do with Greek sculpting and its techniques. Especially so, as the army was painted in very bright colours,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:T...tta_colour.jpg
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:T...and_Detail.JPG
exactly as ancient greek statues were. The whole issue is under debate of course, unless something concrete can be found.

So far as the Heavely horses incident is concerned, Tarn thinks that the city that was besieged wasn't Alexandreia Eschate but Cyropolis, the easternmost city founded as a guardian to its empire byAchaimenid king Cyros the great (Kurush in Persian). By that time it wasn't greek controlled, it was probably been held by a Kushana ruler, but Greeks did exist there in substantial numbers, and what the defenders did (in terms of besieging tricks) was deffinitely something that Greeks would do in case of siege... meaning building a second wall in the inner city if the first one would be undermined, and so forth.

As for translations of Chinese characters into Wade-Giles/Pinyin, I first one stays more true to how a Chinese word is said. For example, Mao Tse Tung was told exactly that way by the Chinese. With Pinyin (Which curiously, I use more), it is now Mao Zedong. A stupid thing which happened on one of my history exams is that I wrote Mao Zedong on it's most modern form, and whoever corrected it underlined the name as if it was incorrect. That prompted my request to re-correct my exam.

I think these maps will convince everyone of the reasons why there will not be any China:

http://geography.about.com/gi/dynami...ew/chinam.html
http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/map08ch.htm

xD just china itself would take more than half the settlement slots....like i suggested be4, make a fan-spin off instead.

That, and the ~7 factions which are of greater power in 272BC. than... say the SPQR. :rolleyes:

Yes, with the addition of China and all possible important factions between the Atlantic and the Pacific we would have to reduce the number of factions in Europe to two: "Celts" and "Greeks".

not to mention that the RTW engine would do a lousy job in representing chinese warfare properly....

I think China would really only be done justice if someone were to make a total war game based off the warring states in China, Japan, the Eastern Steppes all the way down to Indochina. Really, there is so much going on in this region and so much there, that it would need its own mod entirely.

HOWEVER, if someone WERE to create this game, the western most boundery would probably have to be a Bactrian faction. And that would be cool.......

did the Romans know about China, Japan, India, and other eastern powers and vice versa?

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Originally Posted by Majd il-Romani

did the Romans know about China, Japan, India, and other eastern powers and vice versa?

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If memory serves, I seem to recall that the Romans and the Han dynasty exchanged an ambassadorial visit of some sort during either the time of Marcus Aurelius or Antonius Pius. The details escape me at this point, but that would imply that the Romans had at least some vague concept of what was out there. Someone with more knowledge than I can probably flesh this out a bit more.

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Originally Posted by Majd il-Romani

did the Romans know about China, Japan, India, and other eastern powers and vice versa?

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Certainly they knew a lot of India. They also had (little) contact with Eastern Asia by trade. I recall to have read about Roman coins being found in places in Indochina. Roman merchants definitly reached China too, of course only in very small numbers, probably by ship from Eygpt via India.

Some say there had been a Roman colony in Western China founded by POWs of the Battle of Carrhae (53 BC) who were moved to the far east by the Parthians and somehow later became Chinese mercenaries. It is more likely that this settlement was an Indo-Greek outpost on the Silk Route, if any European colony existed out there at all.

China in return knew of Rome (Daqin) and that she was the leading power in the West ruling over hundreds of fortified towns and dozends of minor kings.

But the Parthians blocked as much of the direct contact as possible because they lived well from the East-West trade.

I have a book that describes the arms and tactics of the Qin army during the late warring states. Of course, it's based on what's excavated so far from the terracotta army (they say only half at most is uncovered so far), so the whole picture is still a mystery. I'll translate and summerise bits of it if you are interested =]

Yes. please do. I would like to learn about the differences between China's army and those of the EB factions.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

I'd love to see the Chinese as well, but that doesn't make it any less of a bad idea.

The problem is that there was almost no military contact between China and the west, and for good reasons. The geographical barriers between them are very difficult to traverse for anyone who isn't a steppe nomad. Merchant caravans had a difficult time following the Silk Road, so how much harder it would have been for an army? If it did get through, they would have been so exhausted that the defenders had a field day. But even supposing that they somehow got through and managed to defeat the defenders, the attacking still would be completely isolated with limited communications and no chance of reinforcements. In one word, it's impossible. I think the team was right at putting the edge of the map where it is.

Off course, there is no real way of simulating this with the R:TW engine, so if you are going to include the Chinese, expect to see armies marching up and down the Silk Road like it was the Persian one. For these reasons, China will not be included even if there were no hardcoded limits. Incidentally, hardcoded limits cannot be changed without reverse-engineering the source code and changing the .exe file. This is illegal however, as the .exe file is essentially the game itself, and SEGA will not look kindly upon any attempt at distributing altered .exe files.

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I can't understand this line of reasoning... including China in a map with the rest of the west is no more unrealistic than including the Iberians in the same game map as the Bactrians. Sure, it would be unrealistic for the Chinese to march on the Seleucids, for instance, but then again, it's just as unrealistic for the Ptolemies to march on Carthage, or the Macedonians to invade Iberia. Besides, within the game numerous mechanisms could be put in place to prevent the Chinese spreading west too easily (the sheer distance, for one).

IMO, the ultimate would be for a team like EB, if not the EB team itself, to create an engine for their own game in which they can simulate the entire old world on the scale of RTW.

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Now back to the chinese and definite interactions between them and the Bactrians/IndoGreeks, well the answer is that all evidence pointing to that direction are inconclusive, but they do exist.

-IndoGreek coins that used a chinese analogy in their material.
-Many statues/artefacts in present day China which demonstrate that there was a definite connection between Bactria and Qin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampul_tapestry
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:UrumqiSoldier.jpg

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How does the Tuanchang bronze figurine indicate links between Bactria and Qin? Even if it were indicative of Greek influence in the Tarim basin (which it is not), these only demonstrate links between the settled peoples of the basin and the west, peoples who also had contact with the Chinese but who were not Chinese themselves.

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There was also some questions as to whether there was some influence in the creation of the
Terracota army guarding First emperor Chi Huang Ti or Shi Huang Di (sorry for the incorrect spelling, not a Chinese speaker) had anything to do with Greek sculpting and its techniques. Especially so, as the army was painted in very bright colours,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:T...tta_colour.jpg
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:T...and_Detail.JPG
exactly as ancient greek statues were. The whole issue is under debate of course, unless something concrete can be found.

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There had been a tradition in China for a century or so before the burial of Shi Huang Di of painting miniature terracotta figurines in bright colours. Analyses of the actual pigments used show them to be different in many ways from western varieties (Egyptian, Greek, and Near Eastern). To argue that these statues are indicative of links to the Greeks is absurd, and makes about as much sense as arguing for a link between China and the Greeks because both used swords.

Sure, one huge mape, ranging from Iberia to Japan would be fun, but with the limitations of the engine, the huge size and diverity of the regions that would have to be added, and the gargantuan workload it would result in for the modders, having to do meticulous research, modeling and scripting, it seems quite impossible. One can always hope that ETW's engine will be able to support it, but as clearly stated in the FAQ, it is at this point not possible to guess wether there will be an EB3 for that engine or not. (I'll keep my fingers crossed, though:yes:)

Actually Konny, to make things simple, y don't you open a thread and throw me questions, and I'll try to answer them...

...don't expect me to be able to give you everything tho, for I only know as much as the amount of info i can dig up, and akin to the spirit of EB, i don't make assumptions. =]

Asian (Chinese and Japanese) warfare from the 'ancient' period up through the 19th century largely consisted of individual duels on the battlefield. Properly speaking, the Chinese really don't stand a chance against most of the factions depicted in EB because of how they fought. Only in massed archery could they achieve parity, but once the melee was joined...

er......which asian movie did u get that idea from mate? ^^;

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Originally Posted by satalexton

er......which asian movie did u get that idea from mate? ^^;

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I would very likely think of around Romance of the Three Kingdoms, where it focus on duels between Generals and whoever lost/died 98% of the time lost the battle/had to retreat before massive casualties.
That and Zhuge Liang waving his fan and *insert clever ploy here* took care of the opposing army/general.

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

How does the Tuanchang bronze figurine indicate links between Bactria and Qin? Even if it were indicative of Greek influence in the Tarim basin (which it is not), these only demonstrate links between the settled peoples of the basin and the west, peoples who also had contact with the Chinese but who were not Chinese themselves.

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There is a direct quote saying that they did reach up into the lands of the Seres. (greek ΣΗΡΕΣ=silworms or (the people of) silkworms, ΣΗΡΟΤΡΟΦΙΑ=raising silkworms so that they can be turned into silk
http://www.souflisilk.gr/soufli/?cat=9)

Seres has long been suggested to be some Desert nomads intermediaries between Bactrians and Chinese. However those Nomads didn't have silkworms or used them to make silk, the Chinese did. So, an hypothesis that Bactrians actually reached china, or even Qin its westernmost Kingdom at the time can be considered, especially in view of the other finds in my previous post.

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Originally Posted by Strabo 11.11.1

...In short, Apollodorus says that Bactriana is the ornament of Ariana as a whole; and, more than that, they extended their empire even as far as the Seres and the Phryni.

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http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...Strab.+11.11.1

So far as greek influence into Qin and the Terracota army is concerned, it might be absolutely nil. It might not. I just established the two facts both sculpting techniques had at the time. Realism and very liberal usage of colours. I also posted an opinion that I read somewhere, which did wonder about a relation, any relation between the former and the later. I fail to see the excitement in your post. There is a definite link between Hellenistic art and Hinduistic as well as Buddhist art.

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Originally Posted by K.M. Shrimali, Professor of History at the University of Delhi.

It may be recalled that all these dynasties began their careers in the Indian sub-continent from the regions in the northwest that had witnessed considerable penetration of Greek influence from at least the fourth century B.C. Barring sculptural representations of popular gods, goddesses, demi-gods, vegetative and fertility divinities such as yakshas and yakshis, the genesis of anthropomorphic representations of major Indian deities - both brahmanical and non-brahmanical - is invariably traceable to Greek and Roman influences located in that region.

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http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2011...6001308400.htm

In that light, questions must deffinitely be asked about whether or not there was some interaction, any interaction between Greek art and the art of Qin. Especially so, when under Greco-Buddhist art greek depictions of certain themes are reproduced even up until now in all of the Buddhist world...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art

Especially interesting is the evolution from greek wind god from Hadda in 2nd cent. CE to the Wind God from Kizil, Tarim Basin fresco (7th century) to the 17th century Japanese wind God Fujin

https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...asprobably.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:WindGods.JPG


and the next one which I believe you will easily discover on your own... A man with a large club..
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...ukongoshin.jpg

Iconographical evolution from the Greek god Herakles to the Japanese god Shukongōshin. From left to right:
1) Herakles (Louvre Museum).
2) Herakles on coin of Greco-Bactrian king Demetrius I.
3) Vajrapani, the protector of the Buddha, depicted as Herakles in the Greco-Buddhist art of Gandhara.
4) Shukongōshin, manifestation of Vajrapani, as protector deity of Buddhist temples in Japan

As you see there is deffinite influence of greek art to the religious art of Buddism and Hinduism. The question really is whether it started as early as 220 BCE. The big majority of scholars says no, and as such until any contradicting evidence is found they are right.

Personally I would love to have the whole world in a game like RTW, with 100 factions and unlimited units. In this way we would be able to have not only Qin and Zhou but also all the other states of that period. The problem is that it would take a team like EB to do it, and to create EB1 it took 4 grueling years. I don't want to think how much the whole world would take.

Perhaps the Qin learnt the pike squares from the Bactrian sources. The Pi and the macedonian sarrisae are similar in that they're used in blocks to anchor a battle line...

nope chinese pike formations may look similar but is actaully not influenced by macedonian phalanx system (hell they were using it before 500bc.. if i remember correctly)
o and about chinese getting owned by any western nation...
FYI from what ive read (and i read A LOT of both roman,greek, persian -> japanese chinese etc)
China would have multiple imperial armies that can number from 500,000 (+ a lot more slaves) to as low as 10,000.

What i really want to see is the chinese heavy calvary soldiers vs any hellenic or steppe horsemen...
btw... remember china in ancient times were ruled by nobles and warlords who in turn is loyal to an empire or strong leader
(these men could also summon armies if needed)

Lets just say... this thread will turn into another Chinese vs Roman/Hellenic army thing
lets get back on topic guys!
:)

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Originally Posted by Urnamma

Asian (Chinese and Japanese) warfare from the 'ancient' period up through the 19th century largely consisted of individual duels on the battlefield. Properly speaking, the Chinese really don't stand a chance against most of the factions depicted in EB because of how they fought. Only in massed archery could they achieve parity, but once the melee was joined...

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Was Kung Fu used during the EB timeframe? It would seem that if it was, a chinese army using it would be quite formidable. Hell, general Yue Fei trained his famous Rattan Shield's so well in the art of Hsing-Yi that they were able to defeat the MONGOLS. Then the emperor got jealous and killed him. :wall: Guess we know what happened after that.

What i'm trying to say is, Were Roman methods of warfare truly superior to Chinese ones?

Chinese had crossbows too. That would put them far ahead of romans in battlefield effectiveness. Especially if the Chu Ko Nu was used during the EB time frame. :yes:

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multiple imperial armies that can number from 500,000

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also, is it true that the chinese were the only people in antiquity that were able to effectively field a military force greater that 20,000 men?

one of the reasons i think that the idea of having a EB-like TW game that encompasses the whole Ancient world would be cool is that lets say you are the romans, and you create the pax romana, one of the things you would be able to do could be opening up diplomatic relations with the "Seres" and get CRAPLOADS of mnai from the silk trade.

Hey, i mean, Dont you get an Envoy from the Han sent to your court in EB 1.1 if you play as Pahlava?

god I'm getting sick of this, chinese armies in the acient times had NOTHING to do with kung fu...they resemble NOTHING like dynasty warriors.... in fact they resemble NOTHING like you ever saw on tv.

god, this is even worse than LS believers...

...sry if i sound harsh, but the amount of ignorance does tick me off.

I remember there are a few Ospray books around that does a decent job in portraying things properly, tho abit terribly outdated.

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Roman merchants definitly reached China too, of course only in very small numbers, probably by ship from Eygpt via India.

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So how come we dont have roman records that say things like "the seres live in funny pointy houses (pagodas) and their eyes look funny"? (i know that sounds bad to say but i really dont doubt the romans would've said that)

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Was Kung Fu used during the EB timeframe?

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See, satalexton, Thats a legitimate question. A simple No would have been a lot more polite. Martial arts did exist in china before kung fu.

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ccording to legend, the reign of the Yellow Emperor (Huangdi, traditional date of ascension to the throne, 2698 BC) introduced the earliest forms of martial arts to China.[4] The Yellow Emperor is described as a famous general who, before becoming China’s leader, wrote lengthy treatises on medicine, astrology and the martial arts. He allegedly developed the practice of jiao di or horn-butting and utilized it in war.[5]

Shǒubó (手搏) kung fu, practiced during the Shang dynasty (1766–1066 BC), and Xiang Bo (similar to Sanda) from the 600s BC,[6] are just two examples of ancient Chinese kung fu. In 509 BC, Confucius suggested to Duke Ding of Lu that people practice the literary arts as well as the martial arts[6] thus, kung fu was practiced external to the military and religious sects by ordinary citizens; (pre-dating Shaolin by over 1,000 years). A combat wrestling system called juélì or jiǎolì (角力) is mentioned in the Classic of Rites (1st c. BC).[7] This combat system included techniques such as strikes, throws, joint manipulation, and pressure point attacks. Jiao li became a sport during the Qin Dynasty (221–207 BCE). The Han History Bibliographies record that, by the Former Han (206 BCE – 8 CE), there was a distinction between no-holds-barred weaponless fighting, which it calls shǒubó (手搏), for which "how-to" manuals had already been written, and sportive wrestling, then known as juélì or jiǎolì (角力). Wrestling is also documented in the Shǐ Jì, Records of the Grand Historian, written by Sima Qian (ca. 100 BC).

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And that was very rude of you to think that all i know about kung fu is dynasty warriors and movies. I have been training in Shaolin Kung fu for like 3 yrs now and i just started Jeet Kune Do.


When it comes to ancient history, i'm interested mostly in 3 civilizations. Rome, Greece, and China.

The army of Qin had crossbows which it used at great effect. What isn't known is that the unification of china was done with bronze weapons, essentially bronze longswords, which were covered by a nickel layer, a technique only rediscovered in the West during the 1930's.

I really don't think I am qualified to think what would happen if a Qin army faced a Hellenistic or a Roman army. I wish we could have a way to find out.

What does amaze me though are the similarities between Qin and Macedonia. Both in the outside of their world (Qin of the Chinese, Macedonia of the Greek) so much so that their neighbouring states of the same nation called them barbaric (chinese the Qin, and Greeks the Macedonians even though Qin were fanatic defenders of the Chinese and the same held true for the Macedonians as well)

Qin were great horse breeders ( as the legend says...) and the exact held true in Makedonia. One of its earliest lands Kalindoia means the place where horses roll around (to ger rid of parasites).

Qin and Macedonias' strength was tested in years after years of defending foreing invaders (Qin had the Rung and Hsiung Nu Macedonia had Illyrians and Thraikians) and held. Not only did they hold but they actually managed to use those barbarians as some of their finest troops when they placed all the rest of their land under their leadership.

And the worst part for both is that once their work was done and their whole world conquered (more or less) the divine leader which did it all died, his work fell upon people unable the grasp the vision of the man who created and a terrible civil war started which saw Qin lose everything to the Han and Macedonia losing everything to Roma. Well, at least Han was chinese, whereas Roma was a different nation altogether. In any case, however, Both Han and Roma continued on the exact policies of the defeated, but blamed everything wrong on their predecessors, be it Qin or be it Macedonia. To this day, both Qin and Macedonia have a bad rap exactly because of the accusations of their succesor states. AND THAT IS WRONG!

I have read that people consider Qin the Sparta of China. Yet for the reasons I mentioned above, however many people consider Qin Sparta of China, for me Qin is the Macedonia of China, if there is such a thing as a historical comparison.

Anyways, I recognise the multitude of flaws in my comparison, including the actual fact of comparison itself, but both of them had so much in common it had to be said.

my post was not directed at anybody in particular..at least not you Alex, you just posted during the wrong time. I just generally get sicken by the fact that ppl think the chinese army consists of fodder-grade, badly trained, unarmored rabble with spears led by a super human general that can carve through hundreds of men alone.

Alex, you're right. There already existed martial arts during warring states period. They differ from different states and are part of the soldier's military training. The men are generally taught to handle a long weapon (usually the ge, then later the Ji) and to handle a straight sword. They're also taught to grapple and strikes, to increase survivability shud a soldier lose all his weapons.

..really, mistaking LS for being the only roman armor is one thing, bending physics is another...

p.s. I'm taught Ba ji quan and Ba gua jiang myself alex D=

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Originally Posted by keravnos

The army of Qin had crossbows which it used at great effect. What isn't known is that the unification of china was done with bronze weapons, essentially bronze longswords, which were covered by a nickel layer, a technique only rediscovered in the West during the 1930's.

I really don't think I am qualified to think what would happen if a Qin army faced a Hellenistic or a Roman army. I wish we could have a way to find out.

What does amaze me though are the similarities between Qin and Macedonia. Both in the outside of their world (Qin of the Chinese, Macedonia of the Greek) so much so that their neighbouring states of the same nation called them barbaric (chinese the Qin, and Greeks the Macedonians even though Qin were fanatic defenders of the Chinese and the same held true for the Macedonians as well)

Qin were great horse breeders ( as the legend says...) and the exact held true in Makedonia. One of its earliest lands Kalindoia means the place where horses roll around (to ger rid of parasites).

Qin and Macedonias' strength was tested in years after years of defending foreing invaders (Qin had the Rung and Hsiung Nu Macedonia had Illyrians and Thraikians) and held. Not only did they hold but they actually managed to use those barbarians as some of their finest troops when they placed all the rest of their land under their leadership.

And the worst part for both is that once their work was done and their whole world conquered (more or less) the divine leader which did it all died, his work fell upon people unable the grasp the vision of the man who created and a terrible civil war started which saw Qin lose everything to the Han and Macedonia losing everything to Roma. Well, at least Han was chinese, whereas Roma was a different nation altogether. In any case, however, Both Han and Roma continued on the exact policies of the defeated, but blamed everything wrong on their predecessors, be it Qin or be it Macedonia. To this day, both Qin and Macedonia have a bad rap exactly because of the accusations of their succesor states. AND THAT IS WRONG!

I have read that people consider Qin the Sparta of China. Yet for the reasons I mentioned above, however many people consider Qin Sparta of China, for me Qin is the Macedonia of China, if there is such a thing as a historical comparison.

Anyways, I recognise the multitude of flaws in my comparison, including the actual fact of comparison itself, but both of them had so much in common it had to be said.

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Very well said Kev, people generally tend to think Han as a benevolent regime while the Qin a savage tyranny. What people don't know is that when guan zhong fell to Liu Bang, Xiao He raided the libraries and national archives while everybody else raided the palace and treasury (the civilians were spared due to Liu Bang's orders). It's all those documents that Xiao He nabbed that formed the foundation of the Han government. In fact, very little has changed at all during the begining of the Han dynasty, it was just simply a matter of abolishing certain harsh laws and revising harsh taxation systems. Of course, everything went through an overhaul after the fiasco Liu Bang's queen had caused after his death...

I think I should start a Qin-Han military thread. Would somebody like to help me organise the info?

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Originally Posted by keravnos

There is a direct quote saying that they did reach up into the lands of the Seres. (greek ΣΗΡΕΣ=silworms or (the people of) silkworms, ΣΗΡΟΤΡΟΦΙΑ=raising silkworms so that they can be turned into silk
http://www.souflisilk.gr/soufli/?cat=9)

Seres has long been suggested to be some Desert nomads intermediaries between Bactrians and Chinese. However those Nomads didn't have silkworms or used them to make silk, the Chinese did. So, an hypothesis that Bactrians actually reached china, or even Qin its westernmost Kingdom at the time can be considered, especially in view of the other finds in my previous post.

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There is a simple explanation, and that is that the Seres were the people with whom the Bactrians traded for silk, i.e. any number of people living along the Silk Road. There is no need to read Seres as indicating Chinese.

But why did you post the Tuanchang figurine and the Sampula textile fragment as evidence of Bactrian contact with China, when they are nothing of the sort? Again, all the former indicates is trading contact between the Bactrians and the peoples of the Tarim basin, while the latter doesn't indicate any kind of link whatsoever.

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So far as greek influence into Qin and the Terracota army is concerned, it might be absolutely nil. It might not. I just established the two facts both sculpting techniques had at the time. Realism and very liberal usage of colours. I also posted an opinion that I read somewhere, which did wonder about a relation, any relation between the former and the later. I fail to see the excitement in your post.

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Because I'm frankly surprised that you even gave that theory enough credence to repost it here.

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There is a definite link between Hellenistic art and Hinduistic as well as Buddhist art.


http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2011...6001308400.htm

In that light, questions must deffinitely be asked about whether or not there was some interaction, any interaction between Greek art and the art of Qin. Especially so, when under Greco-Buddhist art greek depictions of certain themes are reproduced even up until now in all of the Buddhist world...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art

Especially interesting is the evolution from greek wind god from Hadda in 2nd cent. CE to the Wind God from Kizil, Tarim Basin fresco (7th century) to the 17th century Japanese wind God Fujin

https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...asprobably.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:WindGods.JPG


and the next one which I believe you will easily discover on your own... A man with a large club..
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...ukongoshin.jpg

Iconographical evolution from the Greek god Herakles to the Japanese god Shukongōshin. From left to right:
1) Herakles (Louvre Museum).
2) Herakles on coin of Greco-Bactrian king Demetrius I.
3) Vajrapani, the protector of the Buddha, depicted as Herakles in the Greco-Buddhist art of Gandhara.
4) Shukongōshin, manifestation of Vajrapani, as protector deity of Buddhist temples in Japan

As you see there is deffinite influence of greek art to the religious art of Buddism and Hinduism. The question really is whether it started as early as 220 BCE. The big majority of scholars says no, and as such until any contradicting evidence is found they are right.

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Of course, but it's all a matter of diffusion. Greek culture had sustained, direct contact with the Indian subcontinent for a long time, whereas China had very little or no direct contact with the Greeks.

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Originally Posted by satalexton

ppl think the chinese army consists of fodder-grade, badly trained, unarmored rabble with spears led by a super human general that can carve through hundreds of men alone.

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Well... Zhao Yun apparently did that at Chang Ban. Not through an ordinary army but against the Han Imperial Army, no less. In part thanks to Cao Cao's help, but he did.

Then you have the "Why kill so many when you can freeze them to death with Zhang Fei's voice?" :P

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Originally Posted by Urnamma

Asian (Chinese and Japanese) warfare from the 'ancient' period up through the 19th century largely consisted of individual duels on the battlefield. Properly speaking, the Chinese really don't stand a chance against most of the factions depicted in EB because of how they fought. Only in massed archery could they achieve parity, but once the melee was joined...

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Would you mind me asking where you got this from? Doesn't it seem like at some point, some general would have said "Boy, I might be better off using all the men under my command..."?

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Originally Posted by AlexanderSextus

What i'm trying to say is, Were Roman methods of warfare truly superior to Chinese ones?

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I don't know much about Chinese warfare, but I feel in general "better" and "worse" are vague and/or useless descriptions when comparing things like this. Each was effective in it's own region.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderSextus

So how come we dont have roman records that say things like "the seres live in funny pointy houses (pagodas) and their eyes look funny"? (i know that sounds bad to say but i really dont doubt the romans would've said that)

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I think in general ancient people didn't notice race like we did. I saw/read something on the topic of race relations in the ancient world a while ago. Anyone know what it is I'm thinking of, or know where to learn more about this subject?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by keravnos

The army of Qin had crossbows which it used at great effect. What isn't known is that the unification of china was done with bronze weapons, essentially bronze longswords, which were covered by a nickel layer, a technique only rediscovered in the West during the 1930's.

I really don't think I am qualified to think what would happen if a Qin army faced a Hellenistic or a Roman army. I wish we could have a way to find out.

What does amaze me though are the similarities between Qin and Macedonia. Both in the outside of their world (Qin of the Chinese, Macedonia of the Greek) so much so that their neighbouring states of the same nation called them barbaric (chinese the Qin, and Greeks the Macedonians even though Qin were fanatic defenders of the Chinese and the same held true for the Macedonians as well)

Qin were great horse breeders ( as the legend says...) and the exact held true in Makedonia. One of its earliest lands Kalindoia means the place where horses roll around (to ger rid of parasites).

Qin and Macedonias' strength was tested in years after years of defending foreing invaders (Qin had the Rung and Hsiung Nu Macedonia had Illyrians and Thraikians) and held. Not only did they hold but they actually managed to use those barbarians as some of their finest troops when they placed all the rest of their land under their leadership.

And the worst part for both is that once their work was done and their whole world conquered (more or less) the divine leader which did it all died, his work fell upon people unable the grasp the vision of the man who created and a terrible civil war started which saw Qin lose everything to the Han and Macedonia losing everything to Roma. Well, at least Han was chinese, whereas Roma was a different nation altogether. In any case, however, Both Han and Roma continued on the exact policies of the defeated, but blamed everything wrong on their predecessors, be it Qin or be it Macedonia. To this day, both Qin and Macedonia have a bad rap exactly because of the accusations of their succesor states. AND THAT IS WRONG!

I have read that people consider Qin the Sparta of China. Yet for the reasons I mentioned above, however many people consider Qin Sparta of China, for me Qin is the Macedonia of China, if there is such a thing as a historical comparison.

Anyways, I recognise the multitude of flaws in my comparison, including the actual fact of comparison itself, but both of them had so much in common it had to be said.

---

Intersting, but I think many of these qualities can be attributed to a lot of successful political states.

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

I can't understand this line of reasoning... including China in a map with the rest of the west is no more unrealistic than including the Iberians in the same game map as the Bactrians. Sure, it would be unrealistic for the Chinese to march on the Seleucids, for instance, but then again, it's just as unrealistic for the Ptolemies to march on Carthage, or the Macedonians to invade Iberia. Besides, within the game numerous mechanisms could be put in place to prevent the Chinese spreading west too easily (the sheer distance, for one).

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I am not sure what you mean. There was little military contact between the Chinese and Hellenic worlds, so I'd say it is realistic to place the map border between them, in so far any map-border can be realistic. Yes, it's unlikely that Bactria would wage war in Iberia, but apart from sheer distance there is no geographical barrier that makes conquest impossible, unlike those between China and Bactria/India.

That is, of course, not taking into account hardcoded limits to city, unit, culture and faction numbers.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderSextus

So how come we dont have roman records that say things like "the seres live in funny pointy houses (pagodas) and their eyes look funny"? (i know that sounds bad to say but i really dont doubt the romans would've said that)

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That depends on the Romans that went there having written it down, and preferably published it so there are multiple copies; and this writing to survive it to the present century. The former is not that likely, as these would have be working merchants, rather than gentlemen of leisure like most historians were; and the latter is next to impossible unless some medieval monk took the trouble of copying it. Basically, unless someone of considerable means and time went there and took the trouble of writing a long story about it, we would not have heard about it. And even if they did, chances that the text would survive to the present day are small.

Here's a bit of intersting info:

Qin organizes men in 5, 10, 100, 500, 1000, 3000 (Qu=曲), 10000, 100000 basis. The Qu is the standard unit of the Qin army. If one counts in the troops that guards the logistics, baggage train and support personnel, a Qin army consisting of 1 qu would have around 5k men.

The Wu 伍 - five-man squad. Commanded by the squad leader. This is the smallest tactical unit, used during skirmishing and non set piece battles. If the squad leader dies, the other four are put to death; if a squad leader loses all four of his men, he is also put to death.

The Dui 队 - 10 Wu. 9 standard Wu led by a commander and his squad. This is the standard unit in non set-piece battles. If the commander (the Dui-Zhang-literally means platoon leader in modern terms) actually gets his Dui wiped out...yes, he's put to death.

The Bo 伯 - Two Dui. A term used in set-piece battles. Usually organised in lines 5 men deep and 40 across or blocks 20 men deep and 10 across, depending on the battle situation and their armaments.

Unlike other states at the time which uses 'citizen' levies (registered male population), which had to provide their own arms, armour and provisions, Qin conscripts (all registered male population above 17 and below 60 are consider as the state's reserves) only need to provide their own sword, clothes and provisions. The state supplies (and thus disarms after a campaign) each person a polearm(usually the Ge/Ji), a crossbow and a set of lammelar shirt armour. The armaments one carries vary depending on the situation. So for example, during a set piece battle, a person standing on the firing line would carry a crossbow a Ji (planted onto the ground to keep pesky chariots away) and his sword.

Common weapons of the Qin army:

Crossbow弩: Conturary to popular belief, Qin crossbows were not the best out of the 7 states.
http://www.atarn.org/chinese/bjng_xbow/qin_mech.jpg
For what they lack in technology, they make up with standarized production. All artisians would make each part to the same standard and each crossbow part are theoretically interchangable. One could technially take 2 broken crossbows apart and assemble a working one out of it. Each part, including the bolts, would have a number, the artisian's name and the supervisor's name engraved on it. If a part is inspected to be substandard, the one responsible will be (yes again) put to death.

The Qin uses 2 types of bows, ones with a lower draw weight (so one doesn't need to bend over to draw) are used by skirmishers, while the foot-drawn ones are used by the line infantry. Qin crossbowmen were feared by other states for being able trade volleys despite taking casualties that would normally cause a rout, and the savageness of their head-on charges against opposing firing lines.

The sword剑: Each infantry provides his own sidearm, so designs and quality may vary. It is generally used when one loses both his crossbow and polearm, which is never a good sign.

Ge戈: The standard dagger axe. Nothing much to say about it other an it's standardized production. Gradually replaced by the Ji.

Mao矛: The chinese term for spear. Like everywhere else in the world, keeps pesky cavalry and chariots away. Gradually replaced by the Ji.

Ji戟:A combination of the Ge and the spear. Originally a chariot weapon.
https://img203.imageshack.us/img203/4069/weapons3dn.jpg
(bottom, the pointy thing above it are crossbow bolts btw)
When trading volleys using the crossbow, it's usually used as a make-shift charge deterent.

Pi铍: A very long spear/pike. Based on the marks left by the decomposed wood in the terracotta army, the shaft is roughly 6.3 metres long. The spearhead is up to 70 cm long with sword like blades. Held in blocks by a whole Bo of men.

Order of battle (set-piece):

For simplicity sake I'll use the Fang Jin ('square' formation)

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-O...nsi-houjin.gif
The white squares represent blocks of intantry, the characters on it are basically numbers/letters.
I haven't quite figure out what the rest are, perhaps somebody here can help me with educated guesses while I look for more books from the library?

Far East couldn't be added anyway in a game that represents Europe and Mid-East warfare and civilizations.
Even with trading contacts and any influences of the case, it is still too far and distant from the other countries. Bactria may be as distant from Rome as it is distant from Beijing. But Rome was in direct contact (and fighting) with the Mid-East, which was connected to Persia, which was connected to Bactria. China wasn't, because the Siberian steppes and the Himalayan mountains denied a closer contact. The only thing the country did was sending an army to defeat the steppe nomads, but the Chinese couldn't do anything else. The Romans, instead, with Traian were able to reach today's Iraqi-Iranian border and had even a possibility to go further, while the Seleucids had an empire that stretched from Asia Minor to current Afghanistan.
And it's not true that Makedonia invading Iberia, Ptolemies invading Carthage and anything else are things that are as unrealistic as China invading Bactria. The Mediterranean sea wasn't an ocean and a hypotetical strong Makedonian kingdom may very well attack Iberia; Ptolemies are even land connected to Carthage. A large mass Chinese invasion of the west instead, even if a Chinese kingdom should control the whole Far East region, would be almost impossible for the reasons said some pages before - just like an invasion of China by Seleucids, Parthians, Romans or whoever you want.

So, if we were to do a mod that features both Europe and China, for the whole game there wouldn't be any contact between Western countries and Far Eastern ones.
Why making a slower, heavier mod only for the sake of playing with the Romans/Gauls/Greeks/whoeveryouwant while the Chinese kingdoms are minding only their businness (and vice versa)?
Instead, do a mod set in ancient Far East Asia, where you are deep inside the struggles between Chinese kingdoms and where you may try to conquer other distant-but-not-too-far places like Manchuria, Indochina, Japan, Tibet.
Or play with Europa Universalis II, but it is a completely different type of game. :D

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Originally Posted by AlexanderSextus

Was Kung Fu used during the EB timeframe? It would seem that if it was, a chinese army using it would be quite formidable.

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I don't agree a lot so for three reasons:

1) do not think that Eastern martial arts are those spectacular types of fighting that make soldiers amazing-awesome-hopping-omg-etc. warriors that other peoples, even if trained for war, wouldn't be able to face. ;)

2) also, just in the case, it's better to not underrate Western fighting styles and skills. A soldier in a hoplite army or in a legion, in example, was well trained, had particular ways to fight with his own weapons and shield, then was well placed amongst his companions in a military group thought to act as a powerful unit in the battle. So, if a Chinese army could be formidable, also other armies could be. They're not so outstanding at the point that other armies would be dwarfed in comparison.
Chinese armies had their skills and were normally trained in their warfare arts, as any other army is. It would be strange instead if they were armies of dummies that don't know how to use a weapon.

3) finally, I don't think that in the melee of a huge field battle one would have time and enough concentration to perform who knows which spectacular movements, other than those that any well trained soldier/warrior/men-at-arms/fighter would do in order to kill his enemy and get take back his ass safe at home. :)

er...Beijing?..you clearly got a lot of thing wrong there mate..^^;

Nope.
It's just a name for example. I could have said "Bactria may be as far from Rome as it is from Bangkok/Tokyo/Vladivostok". It's only for saying that there is a great distance betwen Western lands and Eastern ones.

It's a shame it's not possible. in an ideal world, we'd be able to have everyything represented realistic, and like in EU, making Beijing Casse territory could be possible, given time. Also, why couldn't America be repreented in this hypothetical mod? I for one would like to see the Sioux fighting Pahlava.

But, back to reality, it's not going to happen. Shame though, but it's not.

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Originally Posted by Che Roriniho

I for one would like to see the Sioux fighting Pahlava.

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It would be possible only in custom battles.

But perhaps in the future Rome 2: Total War will have enough factional and unit slots for letting us to fill a mod even with loricati segmentati flaming oliphaunts and Baktrix aliens, as well as enough engine power and complexity to allow modders to create unique features, battle-styles and any type of thing that can't be added in EB due to hardcoding.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

I am not sure what you mean. There was little military contact between the Chinese and Hellenic worlds, so I'd say it is realistic to place the map border between them, in so far any map-border can be realistic.

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The simple fact that a Chinese force reached and successfully besieged a city in Ferghana proves this wrong. The barriers between them were difficult, but not unrealistic, to traverse.

And further, what is being forgotten in this discussion was the fluid and open link between the nomads occupying China's northern border and the nomads to the west. Even just being able to properly model the domino effect by, for instance, having the Chinese defeat the Hsiung-nu and then having them push the Yue-zhi to the west, pushing the Saka further west, etc. would greatly affect gameplay for all by organically reproducing nomadic incursions westward.

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Yes, it's unlikely that Bactria would wage war in Iberia, but apart from sheer distance there is no geographical barrier that makes conquest impossible, unlike those between China and Bactria/India.

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The establishment of the Silk Road shows that this geographical barrier that you seem to think existed between China and Iran/Bactria would not "make conquest impossible." It is, just like between Iberia and Bactria, a matter of distance and route.

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Far East couldn't be added anyway in a game that represents Europe and Mid-East warfare and civilizations.
Even with trading contacts and any influences of the case, it is still too far and distant from the other countries. Bactria may be as distant from Rome as it is distant from Beijing. But Rome was in direct contact (and fighting) with the Mid-East, which was connected to Persia, which was connected to Bactria. China wasn't, because the Siberian steppes and the Himalayan mountains denied a closer contact.

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As has already been posted, China was. In the late 2nd c. BC they campaigned as far west as Ferghana.

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The only thing the country did was sending an army to defeat the steppe nomads, but the Chinese couldn't do anything else. The Romans, instead, with Traian were able to reach today's Iraqi-Iranian border and had even a possibility to go further, while the Seleucids had an empire that stretched from Asia Minor to current Afghanistan.

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You have a woefully limited understanding of Chinese history. The Chinese didn't just send "an army to defeat the steppe nomads." Expansion under the Qin and Han was enormous, including the Korean peninsula, southwest China and parts of Vietnam, and parts of the Tarim basin, an empire which is not insignificant when compares to the the Seleucids'.

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And it's not true that Makedonia invading Iberia, Ptolemies invading Carthage and anything else are things that are as unrealistic as China invading Bactria. The Mediterranean sea wasn't an ocean and a hypotetical strong Makedonian kingdom may very well attack Iberia; Ptolemies are even land connected to Carthage. A large mass Chinese invasion of the west instead, even if a Chinese kingdom should control the whole Far East region, would be almost impossible for the reasons said some pages before - just like an invasion of China by Seleucids, Parthians, Romans or whoever you want.

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So, if we were to do a mod that features both Europe and China, for the whole game there wouldn't be any contact between Western countries and Far Eastern ones.
Why making a slower, heavier mod only for the sake of playing with the Romans/Gauls/Greeks/whoeveryouwant while the Chinese kingdoms are minding only their businness (and vice versa)?

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Arguing from a gameplay perspective makes little sense in this respect. You could argue from the same angle that it is not worth including the Iberians in the same map as Bactrians because, though they could meet, it is almost impossible to do so in an average game. The Chinese could meet Bactria, for instance, and that scenario is more likely than finding Iberians in Bactria (as shown historically in the episode described above).

Needham's myth of the chinese pacifism is overrated. I'm not saying Needham's a bad historian though, he's brilliant infact. But when it came to expansion (or 'defending one's interest'), the chinese were just as aggresive as the romans...perhaps even more so. Just not as blantantly as the Qin did thats all. the Han and Tang dynasty are prime examples.

No Chineese please, too much would have to be sacrificed to make room for them.

Why not get a group together and mod them in yourself?, so those of us who don't want asians in EB don't have to have them.

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Originally Posted by Rilder

No Chineese please, too much would have to be sacrificed to make room for them.

Why not get a group together and mod them in yourself?, so those of us who don't want asians in EB don't have to have them.

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You already have asians in EB though... :laugh4:


It would be cool if there was a way to make a mod that included all the world with the depth that EB has.

that sounded almost racist there lol, but yea i agree, no point filling another 12 factions when the engine's already jam packed. Might as well make an EB spinoff. I'm on ball if there are ppl willing to kick in for it.

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Originally Posted by satalexton

Very well resumed explanation of the Qin Military System.

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I, for one, must thank you for explaining it so clearly, since it is very well written and enlightning.
Though I must say that such a military system would no wonder encourage desertions.

The fact that a Chinese force reached and successfully besieged a city in Ferghana doesn't prove that China would be capable of consistently fielding armies to go across the steppes and conquering and holding "remote" (In a chinese-centered "Middle Kingdom" way) sedentary populous areas with foreign customs which differ greatly from the Chinese ones. Neither would they be able to do this, nor do I believe they would be inclined to do so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jolt

The fact that a Chinese force reached and successfully besieged a city in Ferghana doesn't prove that China would be capable of consistently fielding armies to go across the steppes and conquering and holding "remote" (In a chinese-centered "Middle Kingdom" way) sedentary populous areas with foreign customs which differ greatly from the Chinese ones. Neither would they be able to do this, nor do I believe they would be inclined to do so.

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We don't know if the Chinese would have been able to do this like we don't know if, for instance, the Dacians would have been capable of consistently fielding armies to cross most of central and northern Europe and conquering and holding settlements in Scandinavia. Neither would they have been able to do this, nor would they most likely have been inclined to do so. But EB provides the player with the ability to do so. The simple fact is that whether Dacia and Scandinavia ever interacted directly, intended to do it, or were even historically able to do it, they interacted and affected one another indirectly and there is the possibility that they could have had direct contact.

That's the entire point of a game like EB, otherwise the game would be much more restrictive in forcing the player to follow a historical path. Looking at Macedonia in the mid 4th century, no one would have imagined that Macedonians would have been inclined, nor capable, of conquering to India and creating an Indo-Greek empire in the northwest of that subcontinent in what is historically the blink of an eye. All that would be necessary would be for some sort of circumstance within a game to create the inclination for one of the Warring States to head westward. EB is more about possibilities within the historical framework of the timeline than it is with strictly historical simulation.

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

The establishment of the Silk Road shows that this geographical barrier that you seem to think existed between China and Iran/Bactria would not "make conquest impossible." It is, just like between Iberia and Bactria, a matter of distance and route.

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A series of merchants that travel for a long time following some trading routes isn't the same thing as a huge army that enters the steppes for an invasion of a whole continent.
Unless your army is a nomadic horse horde and you are called Temujin.

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You have a woefully limited understanding of Chinese history. The Chinese didn't just send "an army to defeat the steppe nomads."

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You misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying that the Chinese didn't do any military campaign at all.

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Expansion under the Qin and Han was enormous, including the Korean peninsula, southwest China and parts of Vietnam, and parts of the Tarim basin, an empire which is not insignificant when compares to the the Seleucids'.

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And so? The Romans conquered Britannia, North Africa and Phoenicia, does these conquest make them probably invaders of China? Come on, you're telling of Vietnam and Korea, they are completely different countries, they are really closer to the heart of China than Europe and connection with them was really a completely different thing than an hypotetical connection with Mid-East or Eastern Europe.
The fact that a Chinese army attacked Korea is a story that has anything to do with a serious attempt of conquering the far West (or vice versa).

But, well, yeah, if the Chinese conquered even Southern China, then it's obvious that they could be able to reach the Mediterranean Sea. ;)

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Arguing from a gameplay perspective makes little sense in this respect. You could argue from the same angle that it is not worth including the Iberians in the same map as Bactrians because, though they could meet, it is almost impossible to do so in an average game. The Chinese could meet Bactria, for instance, and that scenario is more likely than finding Iberians in Bactria (as shown historically in the episode described above).

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A simple contact isn't enough for allowing a large-scale war scenario.
Bactria would have _a lot more_ things to do with Eastern countries than China could be with Bactria. And Eastern countries have a lot more in common with Western European countries.
Bactrians during the game may really make their presence visible to Seleucians and Parthians (and whoever could be there), while I don't think that a Roman/Greek/Seleucian player could notice a Chinese empire coming to knock at his doors because it wants to conquer Persia, Mesopotamia, Asia Minor and then go further: even if China should reach the territories that are today's Sinkiang and Tibet, distances would be too long from the mainland of China to lands west of Transoxiana.

I repeat what is my opinion: Chinese in game would remain in Eastern Asia doing their business, as well as Western countries would mind their own one. In a realistic mod, any attempt of a player to invade one side would be a logistical sucide (... if a player manages to make his dominions enough large during the timeframe) for the reasons said before. That's not a pic nic.

This argument is completely academic. There is no suggestion anywhere, that were it possible, EB would expand to include China. That is certainly not in our remit and I don't think we as a team would have any interest in expanding to an area of the map that had such little impact on the major theatres of war of the mediterranean and the Iranian Plateau.

Foot

@Jolt
...but you must admit that it was deathly effective, and to the eyes of a commoner it's a quick way to status and prestiege. The Han military later on largely adopted and expanded on the Qin system, and subsequently set the foundation of chinese military doctrine for years to come.

Imagine this, you are a soldier from one of the 6 states standing in a tight firing line. You draw your crossbow with your foot at signal's notice, load the bolt, and fire in upon command at the enemy firing line 300 yards away. Normally after a few trades one side will either lose nerve or a platoon commander gets fed up and orders his men to draw swords for an ill-fated charge. But no, the Qin men keeps on firing, despite the casualties they sustained. To make matters worse, a blocks of pikemen move forward upon your line and you have no way to reach them with your sword. Your line gets tied down. You hear a distant signal and the Qin men drop their crossbows, remove the Ji from the ground and come after you in a charge.

You are a reasonably well off land owner or artisian, your land or business is wealthy enough for you to provide your arms, and hire workers so you will have time off to drill. If you're dead, you cant keep that. The Qin, on the other hand, are conscripts. Most of them don't have much social status nor wealth, and pretty much all their gear are provided by the state. Their training's tough, dicipline harsh, but ONE thing drives their motivation: YOUR wealth, and your HEAD. For each (confirmed) kill elevates their status, each inch of land gained will one day be your to till, and each rank you attain increases your share of the booty.

You have something to protect, yet they have nothing to lose. Couple that with iron dicipline and harsh military training, they are a terror to behold.

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Originally Posted by Connacht

A series of merchants that travel for a long time following some trading routes isn't the same thing as a huge army that enters the steppes for an invasion of a whole continent.
Unless your army is a nomadic horse horde and you are called Temujin.

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You seem to be a bit confused. I'm not discussing "huge armies entering the steppes for an invasion of a whole continent" (which continent, by the way? Is China not a part of Asia?), I'm discussing Chinese armies using the path that extends from the western portion of the great wall through either the north or south of the Tarim basin into the west- a route which Chinese armies historically took during the EB timeframe.

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You misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying that the Chinese didn't do any military campaign at all.
...
And so? The Romans conquered Britannia, North Africa and Phoenicia, does these conquest make them probably invaders of China? Come on, you're telling of Vietnam and Korea, they are completely different countries, they are really closer to the heart of China than Europe and connection with them was really a completely different thing than an hypotetical connection with Mid-East or Eastern Europe.
The fact that a Chinese army attacked Korea is a story that has anything to do with a serious attempt of conquering the far West (or vice versa).

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That comment was in response to this, especially the bolded part:

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The only thing the country did was sending an army to defeat the steppe nomads, but the Chinese couldn't do anything else. The Romans, instead, with Traian were able to reach today's Iraqi-Iranian border and had even a possibility to go further, while the Seleucids had an empire that stretched from Asia Minor to current Afghanistan.

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Your line of thinking here is clear: the Chinese couldn't do anything else other than send armies against the steppe nomads, while the Romans and the Seleucids controlled huge empires. My post was just to show that this isn't true- the Qin and Han empires expanded hugely during the EB timeframe, just like the Romans and the Macedonians. I'm just arguing that China was expansionist during this timeframe and had the capability to reach the west, but that they were not so inclined, in much the same way that Mediterranean powers could have invaded Scandinavia or the Baltics (areas which were about as accessible to and had about as much contact with the Mediterranean powers during the EB timeframe as China did with the easternmost EB factions), but they were not inclined to do so.

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A simple contact isn't enough for allowing a large-scale war scenario.
Bactria would have _a lot more_ things to do with Eastern countries than China could be with Bactria. And Eastern countries have a lot more in common with Western European countries.
Bactrians during the game may really make their presence visible to Seleucians and Parthians (and whoever could be there), while I don't think that a Roman/Greek/Seleucian player could notice a Chinese empire coming to knock at his doors because it wants to conquer Persia, Mesopotamia, Asia Minor and then go further: even if China should reach the territories that are today's Sinkiang and Tibet, distances would be too long from the mainland of China to lands west of Transoxiana.

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I've pretty much covered my response to this in previous posts.

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I repeat what is my opinion: Chinese in game would remain in Eastern Asia doing their business, as well as Western countries would mind their own one. In a realistic mod, any attempt of a player to invade one side would be a logistical sucide (... if a player manages to make his dominions enough large during the timeframe) for the reasons said before. That's not a pic nic.

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I should perhaps here lay out my position on all this just because it seems like everyone is going in different directions. I am not for anything east of what is currently in the EB map being included. I would not want to see more of India or even more of the Tarim basin included. I think the boundaries are fine as is even if it was feasible to expand the map.

All I am saying is that given the possibility to create a game akin to EB in the EB timeframe, with an overworld map divided into provinces and armies that would attempt to simulate the historical situation at a particular point in time, I would be all for extending the map to include parts of India, China, what is today Mongolia and eastern Siberia, and southeast Asia as far south as Indonesia. I would be for this firstly because it would allow for organic trade to emerge between East and West, primarily through the Silk Road, but also through sea routes from India. Secondly, it would allow for the steppes to be modelled more realistically, with true domino movements influencing both east and west. Finally, because it would allow for outlandish scenarios like Chinese forces invading westward or Bactrians invading eastward or Indians invading Bactria, etc., as EB presently allows. I would support making these actions as viable as they historically were (i.e. not impossible but improbable).

I personally think if Qin/Han are implemented into the mod, it would be a mundane ritual of holding a wide swath of homeland provinces, a tiny handful of expansion regions, surrounded by an endless sea of type 3 and 4 governments.

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

We don't know if the Chinese would have been able to do this like we don't know if, for instance, the Dacians would have been capable of consistently fielding armies to cross most of central and northern Europe and conquering and holding settlements in Scandinavia. Neither would they have been able to do this, nor would they most likely have been inclined to do so. But EB provides the player with the ability to do so. The simple fact is that whether Dacia and Scandinavia ever interacted directly, intended to do it, or were even historically able to do it, they interacted and affected one another indirectly and there is the possibility that they could have had direct contact.

That's the entire point of a game like EB, otherwise the game would be much more restrictive in forcing the player to follow a historical path. Looking at Macedonia in the mid 4th century, no one would have imagined that Macedonians would have been inclined, nor capable, of conquering to India and creating an Indo-Greek empire in the northwest of that subcontinent in what is historically the blink of an eye. All that would be necessary would be for some sort of circumstance within a game to create the inclination for one of the Warring States to head westward. EB is more about possibilities within the historical framework of the timeline than it is with strictly historical simulation.

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Do not forget that you're example has very little in common with a China-West connection. Persia had already invaded Greece, and was only separated by the small Aegean Sea, and was a force with significant impact in Greece even after the defeat of their invasion. Whereas China and Bactria are separated by miles of steppe lands, surrounded by mountainous terrain. But then, by following your line of thought, providing...let's see, Great Zimbabwe united all the Bantu tribes in Africa, and headed Northwards, and embarked on a World Conquest reaching as far as Japan could be just as possible, considering they'd be inclined to such a task, despite existing little connection between Great Zimbabwe and the Mediterranian. What I am saying (And Foot explained it) is that nations who had little impact on the affairs of the current EB map are best left omitted.

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Originally Posted by satalexton

@Jolt
...but you must admit that it was deathly effective, and to the eyes of a commoner it's a quick way to status and prestiege. The Han military later on largely adopted and expanded on the Qin system, and subsequently set the foundation of chinese military doctrine for years to come.

Imagine this, you are a soldier from one of the 6 states standing in a tight firing line. You draw your crossbow with your foot at signal's notice, load the bolt, and fire in upon command at the enemy firing line 300 yards away. Normally after a few trades one side will either lose nerve or a platoon commander gets fed up and orders his men to draw swords for an ill-fated charge. But no, the Qin men keeps on firing, despite the casualties they sustained. To make matters worse, a blocks of pikemen move forward upon your line and you have no way to reach them with your sword. Your line gets tied down. You hear a distant signal and the Qin men drop their crossbows, remove the Ji from the ground and come after you in a charge.

You are a reasonably well off land owner or artisian, your land or business is wealthy enough for you to provide your arms, and hire workers so you will have time off to drill. If you're dead, you cant keep that. The Qin, on the other hand, are conscripts. Most of them don't have much social status nor wealth, and pretty much all their gear are provided by the state. Their training's tough, dicipline harsh, but ONE thing drives their motivation: YOUR wealth, and your HEAD. For each (confirmed) kill elevates their status, each inch of land gained will one day be your to till, and each rank you attain increases your share of the booty.

You have something to protect, yet they have nothing to lose. Couple that with iron dicipline and harsh military training, they are a terror to behold.

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Indeed. But providing you had all the training in the world, if your squad leader comitted one mistake and got himself killed, then you had 0 chances in theory of escaping alive, despite doing your best at fighting/trying to save your squad leader's life. But yes, it is a system which forces all the army to win, true, but if things don't go too well. Then massive desertions could ensure.

I have one question. Was the Han system very alike, or did they alter some principals behind the army organization?

Han was nearly identical to that of Qin in fact, the only real difference really is that the source of motivation is no longer the threat of execution (they prefer the idea of 'court martial', seems more 'fair' when it's a bunch of your peers judging ya death huh?) and lobbing others' heads off to prove u got a kill. It worked mainly because the military is now under the hands of relatively more lenient regime (tho still using Qin constituitions and laws), a much larger territory, and a much larger population. The latter is particularly important because, despite every adult male are still technically considered as reserves, many people may never see military service in their life time. Thus the Han army is more professionalized and take up a smaller proportion of the total population.

Oh it also helps when ur no longer fighting a civil war, but 'defending' your self from the XiongNu, punishing 'rebellious' IndoGreeks and defending the Silk Route while making a fat load of cash in the process.

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Originally Posted by Jolt

Do not forget that you're example has very little in common with a China-West connection. Persia had already invaded Greece, and was only separated by the small Aegean Sea, and was a force with significant impact in Greece even after the defeat of their invasion.

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I don't understand why you're bringing up the connection between Persia and Greece in this context.

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Whereas China and Bactria are separated by miles of steppe lands, surrounded by mountainous terrain.

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If you wanted to go through the north, yes. But the route actually taken by Chinese troops was through the Tarim Basin, which remained the primary route for any travellers going from the west to China and vice versa for millennia. This route followed the great wall to the west, then continued westward until it hit the Tarim Basin (which is a desert; no steppe lands involved) and went either north or south, following the edge of the desert until they crossed mountains on the western side of the basin and crossed into the region around Bactria.

If you think my example has little in common with the China-West connection, here's a better one. The Sabaeans lived a huge distance away from the Mediterranean, had minimal contacts with the other EB factions (mainly with the Aithiopians, who are not represented in game, and to a limited extent in the east with some Iranian peoples). In order for them to reach another EB faction, they would have had to travel hundreds of miles either over the Red Sea or through desert and mountain to reach them. There was a brisk trade of exotic commodities through parts of Arabia, but the Sabaeans themselves almost don't appear on the radar of the ancient historians, and even when we do hear of contact with Arabians (Aelius Gallus' expedition being the primary mention), we only hear about a penetration of a fragment of the Arabian peninsula, not even getting close to the Sabaean homeland. They were barely expansionist, only fighting other neighbouring Arabian states. Yet the Sabaeans are included in EB.

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Originally Posted by Connacht

It would be possible only in custom battles.

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Not if The Sioux Managed to get across the Bering Strait, Through China, and round India to Pahlava! Or If Pahlava did the revrerse. Obviously though, this hypothetical mod would cover about 2000 years of history (I would say 300 BC to 1432 AD),, and would be simply immense. Still, it's not gonna happen, unless that would be possible in ETW, which I somehow doubt)

To cut this story short: there will not be Qin or any other Chinese power in EB; even if the map allowed it. Not even if the faction limit allowed it. Likely, not even if the engine could be massaged in such a way the Qin military organisation could be modelled accurately. Which by the way AFAIK is still largely a matter of individual duels; yes a comprehensive organisation existed - but the point is that a soldiers pay, or punishment was a direct consequence of the number of duels/encounters won (or lost). Hence the importance of cutting off the heads of fallen foes.

The reason why no Chinese power would be included is that if they can; so can dozens of other things.

From what I'm reading this 'discussion' has become an argument for the sake of having one. Why?

Tellos, there were no infantry one-on-one duels. There were chariot duels during the much earlier period of the Eastern Zhou dynasty, but chariots by the EB time frame are on the decline, it's role being filled by cavalry introduced by the Zhao state's "Hu Fu Qi She" (literally means dressing up as a nomad and practising horse-riding and shooting from horseback) reform. Chariots then were largely used to serve as a mobile command post for generals, signalers (drums and large horns), while the rest are put onto the 2 flanks.

The Qin putting on obtaining the enemy's 首级 (roughly translates to 'head') was to encourage the men to fight more ferociously when the charge (300 yards while taking at least 3-4 vollies of bolts) was ordered. The head lopping bit comes when the enemy is breaking, where the Qin soldier would literally drop his Ji, draw his sword, and start chasing to nearest routing chap for his head. In a battle between Qin and Chu during 224BC, when the Chu decide to retreat to a better position to fight the Qin after a long stalemate, the Qin ordered an advance all of a sudden and turned what was suppose to be a tactical retreat into a rout.

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

I don't understand why you're bringing up the connection between Persia and Greece in this context.

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Because you gave Macedonia as an example of someone who wasn't expected to build an Empire, like China could, providing they cross over to the West. My point was that there were already great rivalries between those civilizations (Which motivated the original purpose of the war), while an easily surpassable obstacle (Sea/Strait). Both civilizations had already been in constant warfare and were greatly hostile to one another. Thus it becomes logical that either Macedonia or any other Greek City-State or a coalition of them could try to head East with a significant number of troops, or a Persian re-invasion of Greece, for that matter.
Putting it back into context, there was no such thing between Qin/Han and Bactria. There were no rivalries between the states, and they weren't exactly very aware of how each other even functioned; They had miles to cross before they reached one another, especially Qin, which never focused much in external expansion; Both had little encounters throughout their histories (The one related in this thread is the first one that I know of between Greeks and Chinese, even though someone said they weren't exactly Greeks but some sort of vassal/tributary state.), and that sporadic encounter happened merely because the Chinese envoy was killed. Otherwise, no expedition would have took place.
Therefore one example and other have little in common.

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

If you wanted to go through the north, yes. But the route actually taken by Chinese troops was through the Tarim Basin, which remained the primary route for any travellers going from the west to China and vice versa for millennia. This route followed the great wall to the west, then continued westward until it hit the Tarim Basin (which is a desert; no steppe lands involved) and went either north or south, following the edge of the desert until they crossed mountains on the western side of the basin and crossed into the region around Bactria.

If you think my example has little in common with the China-West connection, here's a better one. The Sabaeans lived a huge distance away from the Mediterranean, had minimal contacts with the other EB factions (mainly with the Aithiopians, who are not represented in game, and to a limited extent in the east with some Iranian peoples). In order for them to reach another EB faction, they would have had to travel hundreds of miles either over the Red Sea or through desert and mountain to reach them. There was a brisk trade of exotic commodities through parts of Arabia, but the Sabaeans themselves almost don't appear on the radar of the ancient historians, and even when we do hear of contact with Arabians (Aelius Gallus' expedition being the primary mention), we only hear about a penetration of a fragment of the Arabian peninsula, not even getting close to the Sabaean homeland. They were barely expansionist, only fighting other neighbouring Arabian states. Yet the Sabaeans are included in EB.

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That is true, but the supposed wealth of the Sabeans prompted the expedition of Aelius Gallus, which shows that they weren't exactly isolated. And the distance they'd have to travel through the sea to reach, I'm not even talking of the Eythrean Ptolomaic possessions or Upper Egypt, but Necao's Channel, is still at the very least half of the distance of Han's Eastern-most borders to reach the Bactrians. And providing they knew in which seasons the wind was favourable to go Northwards (Which I'm sure they did know), it wouldn't be that difficult to reach Egypt from Arabia Felix.

Still, what you bring up is also true, since the Sabeans had little impact on the affairs of the rest of EB's factions.

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and lobbing others' heads off to prove u got a kill.

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Chinese Head Hunters! ^_^'

It is true that Saba played very little part in the affairs of the mediterranean, though there was certainly some. However we are, due to how the world works, stuck with a huge expanse of space in the shape of Arabia. Before Saba were added the rebel towns and armies of Arabia had no appropriate parent faction to belong to (this is important as it defines what names the rebel family leaders can use, what portraits, what it can recruit and so on). I can't remember exactly but I think that in the 0.7x group of releases Parthia was chosen as the parent faction in Arabia, which inevitably led to purple provinces all over the place (in india to as parthia was the parent faction there, and still is). So we have a large entirely complete peninsular in need of a parent faction, that housed important trading cities, and would stop the encroachment of parthian purple into this huge part of the map. For practical purposes Saba had a lot to offer.

This in no way is designed to express all the reasons behind Saba's inclusion, but it certainly helps explain the practical reason.

Foot

Yeah, I remember how in 0.74 the Parthians would end up at war with the Ptolies over, say Yemen... When the Parthians themselves had been beaten naught but to dust by the Seleukids from day one. Oh, those were some really whacky wasteland days! ~:)

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

You seem to be a bit confused. I'm not discussing "huge armies entering the steppes for an invasion of a whole continent" (which continent, by the way? Is China not a part of Asia?),

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Only a part of Asia doesn't mean the entire Asia, otherwise going from Hong Kong to Teheran or to Omsk would be the same as going from Madrid to Istanbul. Then we have also to consider Europe as a possible region to expand towards, during the game, since an hypotetical faction that can occupy territories in the Mid-East could also go further - as the Seleucians, for instance, in EB might do - but this is "A bit too far" (half-quote)...
The same thing would be applied to a western country or to a Eastern/Eastern Greek faction, since trying to conquer China isn't the same thing as conquering Persia or the whole Mediterranean shores. ;)

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I'm discussing Chinese armies using the path that extends from the western portion of the great wall through either the north or south of the Tarim basin into the west- a route which Chinese armies historically took during the EB timeframe.

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And what will be the destination of those armies? Transoxiana? Persia? Then even further? As said, it would be a suicide for armies sent there to fight and conquer. ;)
And attacking those lands would be a thing that no one in the far east would have even tried to think, because of the far distance and the low knowledge of what was there: even with some trading contacts, those were lands that the 99% of the people who heard about them only knew for light filtered echoes and didn't care much (and it's for these reasons that many myths grew amongst people in the corners of the Eurasian supercontinent about "the far exotic East/the far exotic West"), imho it's not very much for taking in consideration a conquest somewhere over there.

Which Chinese ruler would say "let's send an army west of the Tarim basin" for some lands that were almost unkown to the majority of the people in the east, except for some old merchants (and not all of them: trading routes could be also a web of connections between cities and places, with goods passing in the hands of many traders before reaching the west)? Why sending huge armies so far, if there were REAL targets in the neighborhood (and just occupied lands that needed to be garrisoned) as Korea or Indochina?
Why should a monarch think to invade really distant places which he only vaguely heard about, instead of leaving them alone and worrying about more closer, concrete, pressing troubles?
Why should a ruler summon thousands and thousands soldiers from more relevant provinces and send them to places that he hasn't any interest for, except for letting traders travel freely travel there through years? This last one is also the reason for the expedition against the _nomads_... and it would also deny any attempt to declare war against any kingdom there, since they wouldn't more establish trading relationships: why disrupting possible trading routes for waging war against somebody?
Well, which general would not consider a campaign like that just a completely crazy project?
I repeat again, an Eastern empire would mind its own businness without caring about what happens near Ekbatana/Palmyra/Persepolis and without thinking of conquer these lands; so a Western empire would mind its own one without caring about what happens in Mongolia, near the Yellow River or in Tibet. ;)

Only one army sent to fight nomads would be a thing, but a campaign with many armies for the conquest of the second half of actual EB map is another thing. It would be only a fabulous dream where mighty armies fight in the nobody's land without any really reasonable aim.

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That comment was in response to this, especially the bolded part:

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The only thing the country did was sending an army to defeat the steppe nomads, but the Chinese couldn't do anything else. The Romans, instead, with Traian were able to reach today's Iraqi-Iranian border and had even a possibility to go further, while the Seleucids had an empire that stretched from Asia Minor to current Afghanistan.

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Your line of thinking here is clear: the Chinese couldn't do anything else other than send armies against the steppe nomads, while the Romans and the Seleucids controlled huge empires. My post was just to show that this isn't true- the Qin and Han empires expanded hugely during the EB timeframe, just like the Romans and the Macedonians. I'm just arguing that China was expansionist during this timeframe and had the capability to reach the west, but that they were not so inclined, in much the same way that Mediterranean powers could have invaded Scandinavia or the Baltics (areas which were about as accessible to and had about as much contact with the Mediterranean powers during the EB timeframe as China did with the easternmost EB factions), but they were not inclined to do so.

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Nope. Read again the post. The topic was the expansion in the Mid-East, the region from the eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea to today's Iran. My sentence was referring to that.
While the Seleucids and Romans could expand there for some reasons, the Chinese couldn't. Nobody said that China didn't conquer anything east of the Tarim Basin. Nobody said that the Chinese weren't expansionist. And these things are irrelevant, since we were precisely talking about a conflict between West and Far East, a conflict that can't be done for many reasons and that the Chinese never attempted to engage, since the only thing the country did westward was sending an army to defeat the steppe nomads (which was not a preinvasion-of-the-West campaign nor could have forced the Chinese to consider a similar opportunity). ;)

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Yet the Sabaeans are included in EB.

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In fact IMHO I would have replaced them with factions like Numidia or Pergamon, leaving the southern part of Arabia only to Eleutheroi.

I think this debate can't really go anywhere, as most points have been made at this point, but I just want to reiterate a few things.

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Originally Posted by Connacht

And what will be the destination of those armies? Transoxiana? Persia? Then even further? As said, it would be a suicide for armies sent there to fight and conquer. ;)
And attacking those lands would be a thing that no one in the far east would have even tried to think, because of the far distance and the low knowledge of what was there: even with some trading contacts, those were lands that the 99% of the people who heard about them only knew for light filtered echoes and didn't care much (and it's for these reasons that many myths grew amongst people in the corners of the Eurasian supercontinent about "the far exotic East/the far exotic West"), imho it's not very much for taking in consideration a conquest somewhere over there.

Which Chinese ruler would say "let's send an army west of the Tarim basin" for some lands that were almost unkown to the majority of the people in the east, except for some old merchants (and not all of them: trading routes could be also a web of connections between cities and places, with goods passing in the hands of many traders before reaching the west)? Why sending huge armies so far, if there were REAL targets in the neighborhood (and just occupied lands that needed to be garrisoned) as Korea or Indochina?
Why should a monarch think to invade really distant places which he only vaguely heard about, instead of leaving them alone and worrying about more closer, concrete, pressing troubles?
Why should a ruler summon thousands and thousands soldiers from more relevant provinces and send them to places that he hasn't any interest for, except for letting traders travel freely travel there through years? This last one is also the reason for the expedition against the _nomads_... and it would also deny any attempt to declare war against any kingdom there, since they wouldn't more establish trading relationships: why disrupting possible trading routes for waging war against somebody?
Well, which general would not consider a campaign like that just a completely crazy project?
I repeat again, an Eastern empire would mind its own businness without caring about what happens near Ekbatana/Palmyra/Persepolis and without thinking of conquer these lands; so a Western empire would mind its own one without caring about what happens in Mongolia, near the Yellow River or in Tibet. ;)

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I don't know how many times this has to be mentioned, but Han forces did invade Ferghana. Here's a basic outline:

Han dynasty in the second century BC had a difficult time keeping the Xiong-nu at bay. They waged a pretty much constant campaign against the nomads to the northwest and struggled to push back incursions. One wing of this campaign involved the easternmost opening of the Tarim basin, which had been under the control of the Xiong-nu prior to 108 BC, when Han forces captured the city-states in that area, including the largest one in the region, Loulan.

Now, a major facet of the conflict against the Xiong-nu for the Han was a search for good steeds, since those of the nomads were far superior to those of Chinese stock, and in order to combat them properly, the Han needed well-mounted cavalry. After Zhang Qian's embassy to the west in the 120s BC, the Han became aware of a source of "heavenly" horses in a prosperous region they called Da Yuan (Ferghana). The emperor Wudi wanted these horses very badly, and so he commissioned an expedition to go and ask for them, but the king of Da Yuan refused (obviously because they were a precious resource), the embassy left unhappy with this news, and the king for some reason became angry with their response and had them killed on their way back.

Wudi, realizing that the horses wouldnt be gotten so easily, had a military force organized for the dual purpose of punishing this offending kingdom and getting those horses. While this took place, a diversionary attack was made against the Xiong-nu to keep them distracted from this interference in their former western possessions. This expedition took the route to the south of the Tarim basin.

The force organized included something in the region of 30,000 troops, including 20,000 or so conscripts, 6,000 local cavalry, and 3,000 crossbowmen. This was obviously pitifully small, and they were unable to even strongarm local cities in the Tarim Basin into providing them with supplies, so that by the time they reached Da Yuan, they were just a fraction of their previous numbers. They besieged the first city they encountered in Ferghana and were defeated.

Surprisingly, the commander of the military expedition was allowed to undergo a second expedition. This time they learned from their errors, and he was given a force of roughly the same composition as before (border conscripts, local cavalry) but numbering 60,000 men and a huge supply train, including 100,000 head of cattle, 30,000 horses, and other pack animals (donkeys, camels) to the number of around 10,000; food in copious amounts; and plentiful "weapons and crossbows." When he reached Ferghana, he had about 30,000 men left over (many, perhaps most, of the other half were lost, but many were split off into forces that stayed behind and guarded positions along the route they followed).

The army faced off against the Da Yuan troops, defeated them, and forced the population to retreat to the capital. A detached force captured, with some difficulty, the border town which the first expedition had tried and failed to capture. The main body of troops laid siege to the capital, and after 40 days of siege, the outer walls were taken, with the rest of the defenders falling back to the citadel. They killed their king and offered to negotiate with the Chinese, who accepted a gift of 3,000 horses.

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Only one army sent to fight nomads would be a thing, but a campaign with many armies for the conquest of the second half of actual EB map is another thing. It would be only a fabulous dream where mighty armies fight in the nobody's land without any really reasonable aim.

Nope. Read again the post. The topic was the expansion in the Mid-East, the region from the eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea to today's Iran. My sentence was referring to that.
While the Seleucids and Romans could expand there for some reasons, the Chinese couldn't. Nobody said that China didn't conquer anything east of the Tarim Basin. Nobody said that the Chinese weren't expansionist. And these things are irrelevant, since we were precisely talking about a conflict between West and Far East, a conflict that can't be done for many reasons and that the Chinese never attempted to engage, since the only thing the country did westward was sending an army to defeat the steppe nomads (which was not a preinvasion-of-the-West campaign nor could have forced the Chinese to consider a similar opportunity). ;)

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The inhabitants of Ferghana were neither nomads, nor did they live on the steppe. Nothing in the abovementioned expedition involved the steppe. The inhabitants of Ferghana were sedentary agriculturalists who lived in walled cities and were keen traders. They may even have included some Greeks. If you want a simple scenario where Han China could have been motivated to conquer Ferghana and head eastward, then perhaps the emperor required broader stocks of horses to equip the army, and so felt that it was necessary to secure this source (in much the same way that the Ptolemies felt it necessary to secure a source of elephants to equip for war, and the Seleucids the same in Bactria), and so sent another expedition this time subjugating the region and, in typical Chinese practice, securing the cities and settlements in the surrounding region to establish vassal states to defend this new holding (as they did with the Tarim basin city-states).

MeinPanzer, u missed several details, but most importantly, the Han envoy was robbed and killed, not merely 'left unhappy'...

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Originally Posted by satalexton

MeinPanzer, u missed several details, but most importantly, the Han envoy was robbed and killed, not merely 'left unhappy'...

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Obviously I'm not going to relay all the details of the story, since that would take too much time. I just tried to summarize it here for the debate at hand. I left out some of the details which were irrelevant to the discussion (like the Xiong-nu shadowing the second expedition, which doesn't seem to have had any outcome) or the agreements with allies on both the Han and Xiong-nu sides (which resulted in no action, as none of the allies joined either side in combat).

But you misunderstand what I wrote in the second part. I don't think I was quite clear in my writing:

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the king of Da Yuan refused (obviously because they were a precious resource), the embassy left unhappy with this news, and the king for some reason became angry with their response and had them killed on their way back.

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What I mean here is that the king of Da Yuan told the embassy that they couldn't have the horses, and the embassy reacted unhappily to this news, which made the king of Da Yuan angry. The embassy left the king's residence, but made it only to the border of Ferghana, where they were killed and robbed by agents of the king because of the king's anger at their reaction to being rebuffed.

Guys really you got your response from the EB team that under no situation would they include the Qin dynasty in EB with the TW engine, why is this argument still going on? It's pretty obvious that no one is going to be changing their mind in this thread. Just accept that an alternate history there is really an infinite number of possibilities for outcomes. Maybe the Chinese and Romans could have had a military impact on each other but we will never know since if you change one factor there will be a ripple effect. If chinese soldier went west whats to say they wouldn't come close to rebellion and the army would have to turn back (a la Alexanders macedonian army at the indus), it just can't be known since there are too many variables.