1.2 - further and farther, the Qin Dynasty??

[satalexton]

er......which asian movie did u get that idea from mate? ^^;

[Jolt]

er......which asian movie did u get that idea from mate? ^^;

I would very likely think of around Romance of the Three Kingdoms, where it focus on duels between Generals and whoever lost/died 98% of the time lost the battle/had to retreat before massive casualties.
That and Zhuge Liang waving his fan and *insert clever ploy here* took care of the opposing army/general.

[keravnos]

How does the Tuanchang bronze figurine indicate links between Bactria and Qin? Even if it were indicative of Greek influence in the Tarim basin (which it is not), these only demonstrate links between the settled peoples of the basin and the west, peoples who also had contact with the Chinese but who were not Chinese themselves.

There is a direct quote saying that they did reach up into the lands of the Seres. (greek ΣΗΡΕΣ=silworms or (the people of) silkworms, ΣΗΡΟΤΡΟΦΙΑ=raising silkworms so that they can be turned into silk
http://www.souflisilk.gr/soufli/?cat=9)

Seres has long been suggested to be some Desert nomads intermediaries between Bactrians and Chinese. However those Nomads didn't have silkworms or used them to make silk, the Chinese did. So, an hypothesis that Bactrians actually reached china, or even Qin its westernmost Kingdom at the time can be considered, especially in view of the other finds in my previous post.

...In short, Apollodorus says that Bactriana is the ornament of Ariana as a whole; and, more than that, they extended their empire even as far as the Seres and the Phryni.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...Strab.+11.11.1

So far as greek influence into Qin and the Terracota army is concerned, it might be absolutely nil. It might not. I just established the two facts both sculpting techniques had at the time. Realism and very liberal usage of colours. I also posted an opinion that I read somewhere, which did wonder about a relation, any relation between the former and the later. I fail to see the excitement in your post. There is a definite link between Hellenistic art and Hinduistic as well as Buddhist art.

It may be recalled that all these dynasties began their careers in the Indian sub-continent from the regions in the northwest that had witnessed considerable penetration of Greek influence from at least the fourth century B.C. Barring sculptural representations of popular gods, goddesses, demi-gods, vegetative and fertility divinities such as yakshas and yakshis, the genesis of anthropomorphic representations of major Indian deities - both brahmanical and non-brahmanical - is invariably traceable to Greek and Roman influences located in that region.

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2011...6001308400.htm

In that light, questions must deffinitely be asked about whether or not there was some interaction, any interaction between Greek art and the art of Qin. Especially so, when under Greco-Buddhist art greek depictions of certain themes are reproduced even up until now in all of the Buddhist world...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art

Especially interesting is the evolution from greek wind god from Hadda in 2nd cent. CE to the Wind God from Kizil, Tarim Basin fresco (7th century) to the 17th century Japanese wind God Fujin


http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:WindGods.JPG


and the next one which I believe you will easily discover on your own... A man with a large club..

Iconographical evolution from the Greek god Herakles to the Japanese god Shukongōshin. From left to right:
1) Herakles (Louvre Museum).
2) Herakles on coin of Greco-Bactrian king Demetrius I.
3) Vajrapani, the protector of the Buddha, depicted as Herakles in the Greco-Buddhist art of Gandhara.
4) Shukongōshin, manifestation of Vajrapani, as protector deity of Buddhist temples in Japan

As you see there is deffinite influence of greek art to the religious art of Buddism and Hinduism. The question really is whether it started as early as 220 BCE. The big majority of scholars says no, and as such until any contradicting evidence is found they are right.

Personally I would love to have the whole world in a game like RTW, with 100 factions and unlimited units. In this way we would be able to have not only Qin and Zhou but also all the other states of that period. The problem is that it would take a team like EB to do it, and to create EB1 it took 4 grueling years. I don't want to think how much the whole world would take.

[satalexton]

Perhaps the Qin learnt the pike squares from the Bactrian sources. The Pi and the macedonian sarrisae are similar in that they're used in blocks to anchor a battle line...

[teh1337tim]

nope chinese pike formations may look similar but is actaully not influenced by macedonian phalanx system (hell they were using it before 500bc.. if i remember correctly)
o and about chinese getting owned by any western nation...
FYI from what ive read (and i read A LOT of both roman,greek, persian -> japanese chinese etc)
China would have multiple imperial armies that can number from 500,000 (+ a lot more slaves) to as low as 10,000.

What i really want to see is the chinese heavy calvary soldiers vs any hellenic or steppe horsemen...
btw... remember china in ancient times were ruled by nobles and warlords who in turn is loyal to an empire or strong leader
(these men could also summon armies if needed)

Lets just say... this thread will turn into another Chinese vs Roman/Hellenic army thing
lets get back on topic guys!
:)

[AlexanderSextus]

Asian (Chinese and Japanese) warfare from the 'ancient' period up through the 19th century largely consisted of individual duels on the battlefield. Properly speaking, the Chinese really don't stand a chance against most of the factions depicted in EB because of how they fought. Only in massed archery could they achieve parity, but once the melee was joined...

Was Kung Fu used during the EB timeframe? It would seem that if it was, a chinese army using it would be quite formidable. Hell, general Yue Fei trained his famous Rattan Shield's so well in the art of Hsing-Yi that they were able to defeat the MONGOLS. Then the emperor got jealous and killed him. Guess we know what happened after that.

What i'm trying to say is, Were Roman methods of warfare truly superior to Chinese ones?

Chinese had crossbows too. That would put them far ahead of romans in battlefield effectiveness. Especially if the Chu Ko Nu was used during the EB time frame.

[AlexanderSextus]

multiple imperial armies that can number from 500,000

also, is it true that the chinese were the only people in antiquity that were able to effectively field a military force greater that 20,000 men?

[AlexanderSextus]

one of the reasons i think that the idea of having a EB-like TW game that encompasses the whole Ancient world would be cool is that lets say you are the romans, and you create the pax romana, one of the things you would be able to do could be opening up diplomatic relations with the "Seres" and get CRAPLOADS of mnai from the silk trade.

Hey, i mean, Dont you get an Envoy from the Han sent to your court in EB 1.1 if you play as Pahlava?

[satalexton]

god I'm getting sick of this, chinese armies in the acient times had NOTHING to do with kung fu...they resemble NOTHING like dynasty warriors.... in fact they resemble NOTHING like you ever saw on tv.

god, this is even worse than LS believers...

...sry if i sound harsh, but the amount of ignorance does tick me off.

I remember there are a few Ospray books around that does a decent job in portraying things properly, tho abit terribly outdated.

[AlexanderSextus]

Roman merchants definitly reached China too, of course only in very small numbers, probably by ship from Eygpt via India.

So how come we dont have roman records that say things like "the seres live in funny pointy houses (pagodas) and their eyes look funny"? (i know that sounds bad to say but i really dont doubt the romans would've said that)

[AlexanderSextus]

Was Kung Fu used during the EB timeframe?

See, satalexton, Thats a legitimate question. A simple No would have been a lot more polite. Martial arts did exist in china before kung fu.

ccording to legend, the reign of the Yellow Emperor (Huangdi, traditional date of ascension to the throne, 2698 BC) introduced the earliest forms of martial arts to China.[4] The Yellow Emperor is described as a famous general who, before becoming China’s leader, wrote lengthy treatises on medicine, astrology and the martial arts. He allegedly developed the practice of jiao di or horn-butting and utilized it in war.[5]

Shǒubó (手搏) kung fu, practiced during the Shang dynasty (1766–1066 BC), and Xiang Bo (similar to Sanda) from the 600s BC,[6] are just two examples of ancient Chinese kung fu. In 509 BC, Confucius suggested to Duke Ding of Lu that people practice the literary arts as well as the martial arts[6] thus, kung fu was practiced external to the military and religious sects by ordinary citizens; (pre-dating Shaolin by over 1,000 years). A combat wrestling system called juélì or jiǎolì (角力) is mentioned in the Classic of Rites (1st c. BC).[7] This combat system included techniques such as strikes, throws, joint manipulation, and pressure point attacks. Jiao li became a sport during the Qin Dynasty (221–207 BCE). The Han History Bibliographies record that, by the Former Han (206 BCE – 8 CE), there was a distinction between no-holds-barred weaponless fighting, which it calls shǒubó (手搏), for which "how-to" manuals had already been written, and sportive wrestling, then known as juélì or jiǎolì (角力). Wrestling is also documented in the Shǐ Jì, Records of the Grand Historian, written by Sima Qian (ca. 100 BC).

And that was very rude of you to think that all i know about kung fu is dynasty warriors and movies. I have been training in Shaolin Kung fu for like 3 yrs now and i just started Jeet Kune Do.


When it comes to ancient history, i'm interested mostly in 3 civilizations. Rome, Greece, and China.

[keravnos]

The army of Qin had crossbows which it used at great effect. What isn't known is that the unification of china was done with bronze weapons, essentially bronze longswords, which were covered by a nickel layer, a technique only rediscovered in the West during the 1930's.

I really don't think I am qualified to think what would happen if a Qin army faced a Hellenistic or a Roman army. I wish we could have a way to find out.

What does amaze me though are the similarities between Qin and Macedonia. Both in the outside of their world (Qin of the Chinese, Macedonia of the Greek) so much so that their neighbouring states of the same nation called them barbaric (chinese the Qin, and Greeks the Macedonians even though Qin were fanatic defenders of the Chinese and the same held true for the Macedonians as well)

Qin were great horse breeders ( as the legend says...) and the exact held true in Makedonia. One of its earliest lands Kalindoia means the place where horses roll around (to ger rid of parasites).

Qin and Macedonias' strength was tested in years after years of defending foreing invaders (Qin had the Rung and Hsiung Nu Macedonia had Illyrians and Thraikians) and held. Not only did they hold but they actually managed to use those barbarians as some of their finest troops when they placed all the rest of their land under their leadership.

And the worst part for both is that once their work was done and their whole world conquered (more or less) the divine leader which did it all died, his work fell upon people unable the grasp the vision of the man who created and a terrible civil war started which saw Qin lose everything to the Han and Macedonia losing everything to Roma. Well, at least Han was chinese, whereas Roma was a different nation altogether. In any case, however, Both Han and Roma continued on the exact policies of the defeated, but blamed everything wrong on their predecessors, be it Qin or be it Macedonia. To this day, both Qin and Macedonia have a bad rap exactly because of the accusations of their succesor states. AND THAT IS WRONG!

I have read that people consider Qin the Sparta of China. Yet for the reasons I mentioned above, however many people consider Qin Sparta of China, for me Qin is the Macedonia of China, if there is such a thing as a historical comparison.

Anyways, I recognise the multitude of flaws in my comparison, including the actual fact of comparison itself, but both of them had so much in common it had to be said.

[satalexton]

my post was not directed at anybody in particular..at least not you Alex, you just posted during the wrong time. I just generally get sicken by the fact that ppl think the chinese army consists of fodder-grade, badly trained, unarmored rabble with spears led by a super human general that can carve through hundreds of men alone.

Alex, you're right. There already existed martial arts during warring states period. They differ from different states and are part of the soldier's military training. The men are generally taught to handle a long weapon (usually the ge, then later the Ji) and to handle a straight sword. They're also taught to grapple and strikes, to increase survivability shud a soldier lose all his weapons.

..really, mistaking LS for being the only roman armor is one thing, bending physics is another...

p.s. I'm taught Ba ji quan and Ba gua jiang myself alex D=

[satalexton]

The army of Qin had crossbows which it used at great effect. What isn't known is that the unification of china was done with bronze weapons, essentially bronze longswords, which were covered by a nickel layer, a technique only rediscovered in the West during the 1930's.

I really don't think I am qualified to think what would happen if a Qin army faced a Hellenistic or a Roman army. I wish we could have a way to find out.

What does amaze me though are the similarities between Qin and Macedonia. Both in the outside of their world (Qin of the Chinese, Macedonia of the Greek) so much so that their neighbouring states of the same nation called them barbaric (chinese the Qin, and Greeks the Macedonians even though Qin were fanatic defenders of the Chinese and the same held true for the Macedonians as well)

Qin were great horse breeders ( as the legend says...) and the exact held true in Makedonia. One of its earliest lands Kalindoia means the place where horses roll around (to ger rid of parasites).

Qin and Macedonias' strength was tested in years after years of defending foreing invaders (Qin had the Rung and Hsiung Nu Macedonia had Illyrians and Thraikians) and held. Not only did they hold but they actually managed to use those barbarians as some of their finest troops when they placed all the rest of their land under their leadership.

And the worst part for both is that once their work was done and their whole world conquered (more or less) the divine leader which did it all died, his work fell upon people unable the grasp the vision of the man who created and a terrible civil war started which saw Qin lose everything to the Han and Macedonia losing everything to Roma. Well, at least Han was chinese, whereas Roma was a different nation altogether. In any case, however, Both Han and Roma continued on the exact policies of the defeated, but blamed everything wrong on their predecessors, be it Qin or be it Macedonia. To this day, both Qin and Macedonia have a bad rap exactly because of the accusations of their succesor states. AND THAT IS WRONG!

I have read that people consider Qin the Sparta of China. Yet for the reasons I mentioned above, however many people consider Qin Sparta of China, for me Qin is the Macedonia of China, if there is such a thing as a historical comparison.

Anyways, I recognise the multitude of flaws in my comparison, including the actual fact of comparison itself, but both of them had so much in common it had to be said.

Very well said Kev, people generally tend to think Han as a benevolent regime while the Qin a savage tyranny. What people don't know is that when guan zhong fell to Liu Bang, Xiao He raided the libraries and national archives while everybody else raided the palace and treasury (the civilians were spared due to Liu Bang's orders). It's all those documents that Xiao He nabbed that formed the foundation of the Han government. In fact, very little has changed at all during the begining of the Han dynasty, it was just simply a matter of abolishing certain harsh laws and revising harsh taxation systems. Of course, everything went through an overhaul after the fiasco Liu Bang's queen had caused after his death...

I think I should start a Qin-Han military thread. Would somebody like to help me organise the info?

[MeinPanzer]

There is a direct quote saying that they did reach up into the lands of the Seres. (greek ΣΗΡΕΣ=silworms or (the people of) silkworms, ΣΗΡΟΤΡΟΦΙΑ=raising silkworms so that they can be turned into silk
http://www.souflisilk.gr/soufli/?cat=9)

Seres has long been suggested to be some Desert nomads intermediaries between Bactrians and Chinese. However those Nomads didn't have silkworms or used them to make silk, the Chinese did. So, an hypothesis that Bactrians actually reached china, or even Qin its westernmost Kingdom at the time can be considered, especially in view of the other finds in my previous post.

There is a simple explanation, and that is that the Seres were the people with whom the Bactrians traded for silk, i.e. any number of people living along the Silk Road. There is no need to read Seres as indicating Chinese.

But why did you post the Tuanchang figurine and the Sampula textile fragment as evidence of Bactrian contact with China, when they are nothing of the sort? Again, all the former indicates is trading contact between the Bactrians and the peoples of the Tarim basin, while the latter doesn't indicate any kind of link whatsoever.

So far as greek influence into Qin and the Terracota army is concerned, it might be absolutely nil. It might not. I just established the two facts both sculpting techniques had at the time. Realism and very liberal usage of colours. I also posted an opinion that I read somewhere, which did wonder about a relation, any relation between the former and the later. I fail to see the excitement in your post.

Because I'm frankly surprised that you even gave that theory enough credence to repost it here.

There is a definite link between Hellenistic art and Hinduistic as well as Buddhist art.


http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2011...6001308400.htm

In that light, questions must deffinitely be asked about whether or not there was some interaction, any interaction between Greek art and the art of Qin. Especially so, when under Greco-Buddhist art greek depictions of certain themes are reproduced even up until now in all of the Buddhist world...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art

Especially interesting is the evolution from greek wind god from Hadda in 2nd cent. CE to the Wind God from Kizil, Tarim Basin fresco (7th century) to the 17th century Japanese wind God Fujin


http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:WindGods.JPG


and the next one which I believe you will easily discover on your own... A man with a large club..

Iconographical evolution from the Greek god Herakles to the Japanese god Shukongōshin. From left to right:
1) Herakles (Louvre Museum).
2) Herakles on coin of Greco-Bactrian king Demetrius I.
3) Vajrapani, the protector of the Buddha, depicted as Herakles in the Greco-Buddhist art of Gandhara.
4) Shukongōshin, manifestation of Vajrapani, as protector deity of Buddhist temples in Japan

As you see there is deffinite influence of greek art to the religious art of Buddism and Hinduism. The question really is whether it started as early as 220 BCE. The big majority of scholars says no, and as such until any contradicting evidence is found they are right.

Of course, but it's all a matter of diffusion. Greek culture had sustained, direct contact with the Indian subcontinent for a long time, whereas China had very little or no direct contact with the Greeks.

[Jolt]

ppl think the chinese army consists of fodder-grade, badly trained, unarmored rabble with spears led by a super human general that can carve through hundreds of men alone.

Well... Zhao Yun apparently did that at Chang Ban. Not through an ordinary army but against the Han Imperial Army, no less. In part thanks to Cao Cao's help, but he did.

Then you have the "Why kill so many when you can freeze them to death with Zhang Fei's voice?" :P

[lobf]

Asian (Chinese and Japanese) warfare from the 'ancient' period up through the 19th century largely consisted of individual duels on the battlefield. Properly speaking, the Chinese really don't stand a chance against most of the factions depicted in EB because of how they fought. Only in massed archery could they achieve parity, but once the melee was joined...

Would you mind me asking where you got this from? Doesn't it seem like at some point, some general would have said "Boy, I might be better off using all the men under my command..."?

What i'm trying to say is, Were Roman methods of warfare truly superior to Chinese ones?

I don't know much about Chinese warfare, but I feel in general "better" and "worse" are vague and/or useless descriptions when comparing things like this. Each was effective in it's own region.

So how come we dont have roman records that say things like "the seres live in funny pointy houses (pagodas) and their eyes look funny"? (i know that sounds bad to say but i really dont doubt the romans would've said that)

I think in general ancient people didn't notice race like we did. I saw/read something on the topic of race relations in the ancient world a while ago. Anyone know what it is I'm thinking of, or know where to learn more about this subject?

The army of Qin had crossbows which it used at great effect. What isn't known is that the unification of china was done with bronze weapons, essentially bronze longswords, which were covered by a nickel layer, a technique only rediscovered in the West during the 1930's.

I really don't think I am qualified to think what would happen if a Qin army faced a Hellenistic or a Roman army. I wish we could have a way to find out.

What does amaze me though are the similarities between Qin and Macedonia. Both in the outside of their world (Qin of the Chinese, Macedonia of the Greek) so much so that their neighbouring states of the same nation called them barbaric (chinese the Qin, and Greeks the Macedonians even though Qin were fanatic defenders of the Chinese and the same held true for the Macedonians as well)

Qin were great horse breeders ( as the legend says...) and the exact held true in Makedonia. One of its earliest lands Kalindoia means the place where horses roll around (to ger rid of parasites).

Qin and Macedonias' strength was tested in years after years of defending foreing invaders (Qin had the Rung and Hsiung Nu Macedonia had Illyrians and Thraikians) and held. Not only did they hold but they actually managed to use those barbarians as some of their finest troops when they placed all the rest of their land under their leadership.

And the worst part for both is that once their work was done and their whole world conquered (more or less) the divine leader which did it all died, his work fell upon people unable the grasp the vision of the man who created and a terrible civil war started which saw Qin lose everything to the Han and Macedonia losing everything to Roma. Well, at least Han was chinese, whereas Roma was a different nation altogether. In any case, however, Both Han and Roma continued on the exact policies of the defeated, but blamed everything wrong on their predecessors, be it Qin or be it Macedonia. To this day, both Qin and Macedonia have a bad rap exactly because of the accusations of their succesor states. AND THAT IS WRONG!

I have read that people consider Qin the Sparta of China. Yet for the reasons I mentioned above, however many people consider Qin Sparta of China, for me Qin is the Macedonia of China, if there is such a thing as a historical comparison.

Anyways, I recognise the multitude of flaws in my comparison, including the actual fact of comparison itself, but both of them had so much in common it had to be said.

Intersting, but I think many of these qualities can be attributed to a lot of successful political states.

[Ludens]

I can't understand this line of reasoning... including China in a map with the rest of the west is no more unrealistic than including the Iberians in the same game map as the Bactrians. Sure, it would be unrealistic for the Chinese to march on the Seleucids, for instance, but then again, it's just as unrealistic for the Ptolemies to march on Carthage, or the Macedonians to invade Iberia. Besides, within the game numerous mechanisms could be put in place to prevent the Chinese spreading west too easily (the sheer distance, for one).

I am not sure what you mean. There was little military contact between the Chinese and Hellenic worlds, so I'd say it is realistic to place the map border between them, in so far any map-border can be realistic. Yes, it's unlikely that Bactria would wage war in Iberia, but apart from sheer distance there is no geographical barrier that makes conquest impossible, unlike those between China and Bactria/India.

That is, of course, not taking into account hardcoded limits to city, unit, culture and faction numbers.

So how come we dont have roman records that say things like "the seres live in funny pointy houses (pagodas) and their eyes look funny"? (i know that sounds bad to say but i really dont doubt the romans would've said that)

That depends on the Romans that went there having written it down, and preferably published it so there are multiple copies; and this writing to survive it to the present century. The former is not that likely, as these would have be working merchants, rather than gentlemen of leisure like most historians were; and the latter is next to impossible unless some medieval monk took the trouble of copying it. Basically, unless someone of considerable means and time went there and took the trouble of writing a long story about it, we would not have heard about it. And even if they did, chances that the text would survive to the present day are small.

[satalexton]

Here's a bit of intersting info:

Qin organizes men in 5, 10, 100, 500, 1000, 3000 (Qu=曲), 10000, 100000 basis. The Qu is the standard unit of the Qin army. If one counts in the troops that guards the logistics, baggage train and support personnel, a Qin army consisting of 1 qu would have around 5k men.

The Wu 伍 - five-man squad. Commanded by the squad leader. This is the smallest tactical unit, used during skirmishing and non set piece battles. If the squad leader dies, the other four are put to death; if a squad leader loses all four of his men, he is also put to death.

The Dui 队 - 10 Wu. 9 standard Wu led by a commander and his squad. This is the standard unit in non set-piece battles. If the commander (the Dui-Zhang-literally means platoon leader in modern terms) actually gets his Dui wiped out...yes, he's put to death.

The Bo 伯 - Two Dui. A term used in set-piece battles. Usually organised in lines 5 men deep and 40 across or blocks 20 men deep and 10 across, depending on the battle situation and their armaments.

Unlike other states at the time which uses 'citizen' levies (registered male population), which had to provide their own arms, armour and provisions, Qin conscripts (all registered male population above 17 and below 60 are consider as the state's reserves) only need to provide their own sword, clothes and provisions. The state supplies (and thus disarms after a campaign) each person a polearm(usually the Ge/Ji), a crossbow and a set of lammelar shirt armour. The armaments one carries vary depending on the situation. So for example, during a set piece battle, a person standing on the firing line would carry a crossbow a Ji (planted onto the ground to keep pesky chariots away) and his sword.

Common weapons of the Qin army:

Crossbow弩: Conturary to popular belief, Qin crossbows were not the best out of the 7 states.

For what they lack in technology, they make up with standarized production. All artisians would make each part to the same standard and each crossbow part are theoretically interchangable. One could technially take 2 broken crossbows apart and assemble a working one out of it. Each part, including the bolts, would have a number, the artisian's name and the supervisor's name engraved on it. If a part is inspected to be substandard, the one responsible will be (yes again) put to death.

The Qin uses 2 types of bows, ones with a lower draw weight (so one doesn't need to bend over to draw) are used by skirmishers, while the foot-drawn ones are used by the line infantry. Qin crossbowmen were feared by other states for being able trade volleys despite taking casualties that would normally cause a rout, and the savageness of their head-on charges against opposing firing lines.

The sword剑: Each infantry provides his own sidearm, so designs and quality may vary. It is generally used when one loses both his crossbow and polearm, which is never a good sign.

Ge戈: The standard dagger axe. Nothing much to say about it other an it's standardized production. Gradually replaced by the Ji.

Mao矛: The chinese term for spear. Like everywhere else in the world, keeps pesky cavalry and chariots away. Gradually replaced by the Ji.

Ji戟:A combination of the Ge and the spear. Originally a chariot weapon.

(bottom, the pointy thing above it are crossbow bolts btw)
When trading volleys using the crossbow, it's usually used as a make-shift charge deterent.

Pi铍: A very long spear/pike. Based on the marks left by the decomposed wood in the terracotta army, the shaft is roughly 6.3 metres long. The spearhead is up to 70 cm long with sword like blades. Held in blocks by a whole Bo of men.

Order of battle (set-piece):

For simplicity sake I'll use the Fang Jin ('square' formation)


The white squares represent blocks of intantry, the characters on it are basically numbers/letters.
I haven't quite figure out what the rest are, perhaps somebody here can help me with educated guesses while I look for more books from the library?

[Connacht]

Far East couldn't be added anyway in a game that represents Europe and Mid-East warfare and civilizations.
Even with trading contacts and any influences of the case, it is still too far and distant from the other countries. Bactria may be as distant from Rome as it is distant from Beijing. But Rome was in direct contact (and fighting) with the Mid-East, which was connected to Persia, which was connected to Bactria. China wasn't, because the Siberian steppes and the Himalayan mountains denied a closer contact. The only thing the country did was sending an army to defeat the steppe nomads, but the Chinese couldn't do anything else. The Romans, instead, with Traian were able to reach today's Iraqi-Iranian border and had even a possibility to go further, while the Seleucids had an empire that stretched from Asia Minor to current Afghanistan.
And it's not true that Makedonia invading Iberia, Ptolemies invading Carthage and anything else are things that are as unrealistic as China invading Bactria. The Mediterranean sea wasn't an ocean and a hypotetical strong Makedonian kingdom may very well attack Iberia; Ptolemies are even land connected to Carthage. A large mass Chinese invasion of the west instead, even if a Chinese kingdom should control the whole Far East region, would be almost impossible for the reasons said some pages before - just like an invasion of China by Seleucids, Parthians, Romans or whoever you want.

So, if we were to do a mod that features both Europe and China, for the whole game there wouldn't be any contact between Western countries and Far Eastern ones.
Why making a slower, heavier mod only for the sake of playing with the Romans/Gauls/Greeks/whoeveryouwant while the Chinese kingdoms are minding only their businness (and vice versa)?
Instead, do a mod set in ancient Far East Asia, where you are deep inside the struggles between Chinese kingdoms and where you may try to conquer other distant-but-not-too-far places like Manchuria, Indochina, Japan, Tibet.
Or play with Europa Universalis II, but it is a completely different type of game. :D

Was Kung Fu used during the EB timeframe? It would seem that if it was, a chinese army using it would be quite formidable.

I don't agree a lot so for three reasons:

1) do not think that Eastern martial arts are those spectacular types of fighting that make soldiers amazing-awesome-hopping-omg-etc. warriors that other peoples, even if trained for war, wouldn't be able to face. ;)

2) also, just in the case, it's better to not underrate Western fighting styles and skills. A soldier in a hoplite army or in a legion, in example, was well trained, had particular ways to fight with his own weapons and shield, then was well placed amongst his companions in a military group thought to act as a powerful unit in the battle. So, if a Chinese army could be formidable, also other armies could be. They're not so outstanding at the point that other armies would be dwarfed in comparison.
Chinese armies had their skills and were normally trained in their warfare arts, as any other army is. It would be strange instead if they were armies of dummies that don't know how to use a weapon.

3) finally, I don't think that in the melee of a huge field battle one would have time and enough concentration to perform who knows which spectacular movements, other than those that any well trained soldier/warrior/men-at-arms/fighter would do in order to kill his enemy and get take back his ass safe at home. :)

[satalexton]

er...Beijing?..you clearly got a lot of thing wrong there mate..^^;

[Connacht]

Nope.
It's just a name for example. I could have said "Bactria may be as far from Rome as it is from Bangkok/Tokyo/Vladivostok". It's only for saying that there is a great distance betwen Western lands and Eastern ones.

[Che Roriniho]

It's a shame it's not possible. in an ideal world, we'd be able to have everyything represented realistic, and like in EU, making Beijing Casse territory could be possible, given time. Also, why couldn't America be repreented in this hypothetical mod? I for one would like to see the Sioux fighting Pahlava.

But, back to reality, it's not going to happen. Shame though, but it's not.

[Connacht]

I for one would like to see the Sioux fighting Pahlava.

It would be possible only in custom battles.

But perhaps in the future Rome 2: Total War will have enough factional and unit slots for letting us to fill a mod even with loricati segmentati flaming oliphaunts and Baktrix aliens, as well as enough engine power and complexity to allow modders to create unique features, battle-styles and any type of thing that can't be added in EB due to hardcoding.

[MeinPanzer]

I am not sure what you mean. There was little military contact between the Chinese and Hellenic worlds, so I'd say it is realistic to place the map border between them, in so far any map-border can be realistic.

The simple fact that a Chinese force reached and successfully besieged a city in Ferghana proves this wrong. The barriers between them were difficult, but not unrealistic, to traverse.

And further, what is being forgotten in this discussion was the fluid and open link between the nomads occupying China's northern border and the nomads to the west. Even just being able to properly model the domino effect by, for instance, having the Chinese defeat the Hsiung-nu and then having them push the Yue-zhi to the west, pushing the Saka further west, etc. would greatly affect gameplay for all by organically reproducing nomadic incursions westward.

Yes, it's unlikely that Bactria would wage war in Iberia, but apart from sheer distance there is no geographical barrier that makes conquest impossible, unlike those between China and Bactria/India.

The establishment of the Silk Road shows that this geographical barrier that you seem to think existed between China and Iran/Bactria would not "make conquest impossible." It is, just like between Iberia and Bactria, a matter of distance and route.

Far East couldn't be added anyway in a game that represents Europe and Mid-East warfare and civilizations.
Even with trading contacts and any influences of the case, it is still too far and distant from the other countries. Bactria may be as distant from Rome as it is distant from Beijing. But Rome was in direct contact (and fighting) with the Mid-East, which was connected to Persia, which was connected to Bactria. China wasn't, because the Siberian steppes and the Himalayan mountains denied a closer contact.

As has already been posted, China was. In the late 2nd c. BC they campaigned as far west as Ferghana.

The only thing the country did was sending an army to defeat the steppe nomads, but the Chinese couldn't do anything else. The Romans, instead, with Traian were able to reach today's Iraqi-Iranian border and had even a possibility to go further, while the Seleucids had an empire that stretched from Asia Minor to current Afghanistan.

You have a woefully limited understanding of Chinese history. The Chinese didn't just send "an army to defeat the steppe nomads." Expansion under the Qin and Han was enormous, including the Korean peninsula, southwest China and parts of Vietnam, and parts of the Tarim basin, an empire which is not insignificant when compares to the the Seleucids'.

And it's not true that Makedonia invading Iberia, Ptolemies invading Carthage and anything else are things that are as unrealistic as China invading Bactria. The Mediterranean sea wasn't an ocean and a hypotetical strong Makedonian kingdom may very well attack Iberia; Ptolemies are even land connected to Carthage. A large mass Chinese invasion of the west instead, even if a Chinese kingdom should control the whole Far East region, would be almost impossible for the reasons said some pages before - just like an invasion of China by Seleucids, Parthians, Romans or whoever you want.

So, if we were to do a mod that features both Europe and China, for the whole game there wouldn't be any contact between Western countries and Far Eastern ones.
Why making a slower, heavier mod only for the sake of playing with the Romans/Gauls/Greeks/whoeveryouwant while the Chinese kingdoms are minding only their businness (and vice versa)?

Arguing from a gameplay perspective makes little sense in this respect. You could argue from the same angle that it is not worth including the Iberians in the same map as Bactrians because, though they could meet, it is almost impossible to do so in an average game. The Chinese could meet Bactria, for instance, and that scenario is more likely than finding Iberians in Bactria (as shown historically in the episode described above).

[satalexton]

Needham's myth of the chinese pacifism is overrated. I'm not saying Needham's a bad historian though, he's brilliant infact. But when it came to expansion (or 'defending one's interest'), the chinese were just as aggresive as the romans...perhaps even more so. Just not as blantantly as the Qin did thats all. the Han and Tang dynasty are prime examples.

[Rilder]

No Chineese please, too much would have to be sacrificed to make room for them.

Why not get a group together and mod them in yourself?, so those of us who don't want asians in EB don't have to have them.

[Spoofa]

No Chineese please, too much would have to be sacrificed to make room for them.

Why not get a group together and mod them in yourself?, so those of us who don't want asians in EB don't have to have them.

You already have asians in EB though...


It would be cool if there was a way to make a mod that included all the world with the depth that EB has.

[satalexton]

that sounded almost racist there lol, but yea i agree, no point filling another 12 factions when the engine's already jam packed. Might as well make an EB spinoff. I'm on ball if there are ppl willing to kick in for it.

[Jolt]

Very well resumed explanation of the Qin Military System.

I, for one, must thank you for explaining it so clearly, since it is very well written and enlightning.
Though I must say that such a military system would no wonder encourage desertions.

The fact that a Chinese force reached and successfully besieged a city in Ferghana doesn't prove that China would be capable of consistently fielding armies to go across the steppes and conquering and holding "remote" (In a chinese-centered "Middle Kingdom" way) sedentary populous areas with foreign customs which differ greatly from the Chinese ones. Neither would they be able to do this, nor do I believe they would be inclined to do so.