A case for the removal of the Augustan Reforms!

Being a great fan of the Romans this is not something you might expect. Nevertheless I feel the imperial reforms must be removed. I will explain why.

EB2 will have about 10 new factions. These factions need troops. Every troop takes a unit slot. The unit limit has however not risen at the same ratio as the faction limit has. The Romans have 4 reforms and therefor use up a large amount of the unit limit. By removing the imperial reforms 7 unit slots are freed.

-Imperial legionary cohort
-Praetorian cohort
-Praetorian cavalry
-Western auxillia
-Eastern auxillia
-Cavalry auxillia
-Archer auxillia

These slots can then be used to create new interesting units for the new factions.

A second reason is that these troops are not necessary. The Imperial legionary cohort is basicly the same is the republic one. The Praetorians can only be recruited in Rome anyway. 2 Slots for a bodyguard is quite expensive. The auxillia can be replaced by local troops, gallic cavalry auxilla, syrian archers etc.

The third reason is that the reforms happend at the end of the timeframe and it also assumes that the transition from republic to empire was inevitable. With major reforms the republic might have survived.

The fourth and last reason is that only a few people reach these reforms.

I hope I won't be lynched for this.

you traitor of the SPQR...:shifty:

na JK... I don't know... I might loose interest to play with Rome... getting augustans is always an objective to me (though I haven't reached them so far :sweatdrop:)

Seconded, never acheived the Imperials without editing EBBS.

Think of it this way: the world is a Roman zoo with animals waiting to be butchered. More animals means more fun.

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Originally Posted by Remco

Being a great fan of the Romans this is not something you might expect. Nevertheless I feel the imperial reforms must be removed. I will explain why.

EB2 will have about 10 new factions. These factions need troops. Every troop takes a unit slot. The unit limit has however not risen at the same ratio as the faction limit has. The Romans have 4 reforms and therefor use up a large amount of the unit limit. By removing the imperial reforms 7 unit slots are freed.

-Imperial legionary cohort
-Praetorian cohort
-Praetorian cavalry
-Western auxillia
-Eastern auxillia
-Cavalry auxillia
-Archer auxillia

These slots can then be used to create new interesting units for the new factions.

A second reason is that these troops are not necessary. The Imperial legionary cohort is basicly the same is the republic one. The Praetorians can only be recruited in Rome anyway. 2 Slots for a bodyguard is quite expensive. The auxillia can be replaced by local troops, gallic cavalry auxilla, syrian archers etc.

The third reason is that the reforms happend at the end of the timeframe and it also assumes that the transition from republic to empire was inevitable. With major reforms the republic might have survived.

The fourth and last reason is that only a few people reach these reforms.

I hope I won't be lynched for this.

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Seconded. Despite playing EB since 2006 or thereabouts, I have never made it to the imperial reforms... If we had unlimited unit slots would be great to have everything, however they seem to be unjustified given the resources taken for the amount of pleasure given. Much more fun would be more units for other factions (or even more for early Rome!) that everyone can enjoy from the get go. For what its worth from someone who does not actually help create the game.... but just plays it far too much...

Disagree. I'm a big fan of playing Romani; and have been able to get the Augustan reform once. Playing the new (admittedly big headed) units was a blast, and give a reward for continuing a long campaign.

I'd be all for removing the Augustan reform, hell I've never even reached the Marian ones, never mind playing right down to 6AD.

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Originally Posted by brymht

Disagree. I'm a big fan of playing Romani; and have been able to get the Augustan reform once. Playing the new (admittedly big headed) units was a blast, and give a reward for continuing a long campaign.

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You are right but Rome is not the only faction. To much resources are used up by Rome.

Hmmm... I'm all for re-skinning the imperial cohort, but no roman empire... seems almost sacreligious to me! A classical mod with no Imperator...

I'd rather they stay, but if there is no other alternative when factoring in the added factions...

I must agree with the OP. Considering that only a very few human players ever get them, and you might as well look for the sky to drop down if you think the AI ever could, it hardly seems economical (or fair) to keep them.

I completely agree with Remco's position.

remove praetorian cohort?! no way.....don't remove the praetorians..the others idc about :laugh4:

I too agree.

It's one thing I've always wondered about. For so much of the campaign your 'playing' the Romani as a Republic. The Republics goal was to maintain the Republic, not become an Empire.....anything but one man in total control (a King!)

Perhaps the threat of becoming an Empire could be worked into the Romani victory conditions as an ever present and increasing leap to defeat for the player, rather than a goal? How? I can't imagine.....

Cheers,

Quilts

Although I like the Romans and playing custom battles with Imperial units, I agree with the opinions showed here.
Anyway, before removing a unit I would always think "have I completely filled any slot?", then if I need to add some units and I have no more space I will remove unnecessary ones.

However, the nasty thing in this is that I know some Italian fanboys who would get mad even by only hearing of this idea (for instance I did read also opinions of a modder who "dislikes" EB that would cast the worst deadly curses in the world to EB authors if he would notice that the holy-sacred-untouchable-mighty-superior-ubermenschlich-omg-i'm cumming-onlyreasonforallowingagameinthishistoricaltimetoexist-dreamy-ahweehmahweh Imperial legions have been removed), so I'm already imaging the flame wars...

People have already said that the EB team disregards or doesn't like or is hostile to the Roman faction. Which obviously is wrong, seeing the work that went into that faction.

I agree with the OP. And if people don't like the absence of imperial Rome, it can still be modded in, afterwards, by removing units from other factions (how likely is Rome to fight the Saka? honestly?).

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Originally Posted by Connacht

Although I like the Romans and playing custom battles with Imperial units, I agree with the opinions showed here.
Anyway, before removing a unit I would always think "have I completely filled any slot?", then if I need to add some units and I have no more space I will remove unnecessary ones.

However, the nasty thing in this is that I know some Italian fanboys who would get mad even by only hearing of this idea (for instance I did read also opinions of a modder who "dislikes" EB that would cast the worst deadly curses in the world to EB authors if he would notice that the holy-sacred-untouchable-mighty-superior-ubermenschlich-omg-i'm cumming-onlyreasonforallowingagameinthishistoricaltimetoexist-dreamy-ahweehmahweh Imperial legions have been removed), so I'm already imaging the flame wars...

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I was going to post it but I decided that it's more fun if I queried Google for my reply + 'definition'. See?

EDIT: And my reply wasn't the title you see there. <_<

I have to say I agree with the OP. Considering that I've never made it to the Marian reforms, let alone the Augustan reforms, I can safely say that I wouldn't notice anything, not really. And just from my experience, I think that most people will never see the Augustan reforms unless they start from the beginning with that goal in mind.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone here actually reached the Augustan reforms?

Not me. The Gods know I tried, though. Many times. My 15 or so Romani games prove it.

Boredom always got me, though.

its fun to use them in customs though... <.<

I have an idea, it might not actually work, or anything, but here goes:
I'm not sure, but while the model limit has been reached, but the skin limit hasn't. if this is so (again, don't quote me), then we could reuse the model for the C. Evocata, but use different skins for C. Praetoriana and C. Imperitoria. likewise, we could use a different skin for E. Praetoriana for another Roman horse unit.

Just my 2 cent...

Very interesting argument, I have to say that I can't make a case against it. There really is no reason for the Augustan Reforms to be in this game (other than "because it looks nice") when 99% of gamers haven't even had (or ever will have) a campaign last that long. It truly is a waste of unit space that could be better used by other factions.

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Originally Posted by Che Roriniho

I have an idea, it might not actually work, or anything, but here goes:
I'm not sure, but while the model limit has been reached, but the skin limit hasn't. if this is so (again, don't quote me), then we could reuse the model for the C. Evocata, but use different skins for C. Praetoriana and C. Imperitoria. likewise, we could use a different skin for E. Praetoriana for another Roman horse unit.

Just my 2 cent...

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THAT would be AWESOME :2thumbsup: everyone wins ...

It would be more benefitial to remove the imperial units and use them for other nations.

I think the fact that no EB team member has come in here and told us that this won't happen could perhaps mean that this will be the case, and the Augustun Reforms will be removed...

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Originally Posted by Turnus

I think the fact that no EB team member has come in here and told us that this won't happen could perhaps mean that this will be the case, and the Augustun Reforms will be removed...

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or they are thinking about it...

It may very well be too early to tell.

To remove Augustan reforms and trade them for new units for new factions is an excellent idea!!! (otherwise why should we have new factions?) It is a matter of ballance - it has nothing to do with whether one likes the imperial units or the Roman Empire or not. Simply, given a certain number of unit slots and increased nuber of factions, it is only natural that some old units will have to go - and the augustans seems the most natural candidates for that, especially given the fact that they came so late in the game and that S.P.Q.R. have polybian and marian reforms already.:yes:

I think, however, that it will still be nice to leave the Imperator trait (and some nice ancillary maybe) in place and make it hereditial just for role-playing purposes. :2cents:

As to the skins idea, I am afraid that it will not work, beacause the skins are defined by the faction ownership and here we would have two different skins for the same unit owned by the same faction, which is probably impossible. :cry:

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I think, however, that it will still be nice to leave the Imperator trait

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Imperator? You mean the guy that has crushed a certain faction that will get a triumph-trait?

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Also, I'm surprised about how much people are against the Augustan reforms here.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Imperator? You mean the guy that has crushed a certain faction that will get a triumph-trait?

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Also, I'm surprised about how much people are against the Augustan reforms here.

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Why? To be brutally honest and blunt, they are useless. No offence to the creators of them, they are great units, but the system EB has set up for them completely negates their even being in the mod. Its the same argument the team uses for not having LS, ie it only appears around 9 BC. Well Augustus did his reforms two decades before that? For a whopping 20 years you should have Imperial legionaries. Not a viable unit imo.

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Originally Posted by Gaivs

Why? To be brutally honest and blunt, they are useless. No offence to the creators of them, they are great units, but the system EB has set up for them completely negates their even being in the mod. Its the same argument the team uses for not having LS, ie it only appears around 9 BC. Well Augustus did his reforms two decades before that? For a whopping 20 years you should have Imperial legionaries. Not a viable unit imo.

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True, but so many people like them, perhaps only keep, I dunno, say the Praetorian guard, for custom battles? it's such a beutiful unit...

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Originally Posted by V.T. Marvin

To remove Augustan reforms and trade them for new units for new factions is an excellent idea!!! (otherwise why should we have new factions?) It is a matter of ballance - it has nothing to do with whether one likes the imperial units or the Roman Empire or not. Simply, given a certain number of unit slots and increased nuber of factions, it is only natural that some old units will have to go - and the augustans seems the most natural candidates for that, especially given the fact that they came so late in the game and that S.P.Q.R. have polybian and marian reforms already.:yes:

I think, however, that it will still be nice to leave the Imperator trait (and some nice ancillary maybe) in place and make it hereditial just for role-playing purposes. :2cents:

As to the skins idea, I am afraid that it will not work, beacause the skins are defined by the faction ownership and here we would have two different skins for the same unit owned by the same faction, which is probably impossible. :cry:

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Don't know how M2TW model texture allotments is handled, but in RTW we got around that by using the merc skin. That's why Makedonia for example can recruit BOTH Prodromoi & Thraikioi Prodromoi.
Take a look at macedon & merc texture lines.

Code:

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; Hellenistic cavalry - Prodromoi / Prodromoi Thraikoi

type                                hellenistic_cavalry_prodromoi
skeleton                        fs_thp_m_spearman, fs_hc_swordsman
indiv_range                        40
texture                                macedon, eb/data/models_unit/textures/hellenistic/ebhellenistic_cavalry_prodromoi_agart_macedon.tga
texture                                numidia, eb/data/models_unit/textures/hellenistic/ebhellenistic_cavalry_prodromoi_agart_macedon.tga
texture                                romans_brutii, eb/data/models_unit/textures/hellenistic/ebhellenistic_cavalry_prodromoi_agart_macedon.tga
texture                                greek_cities, eb/data/models_unit/textures/hellenistic/ebhellenistic_cavalry_prodromoi_agart_greek.tga
texture                                romans_julii, eb/data/models_unit/textures/hellenistic/ebhellenistic_cavalry_prodromoi_agart_julii.tga
texture                                thrace, eb/data/models_unit/textures/hellenistic/ebhellenistic_cavalry_prodromoi_agart_thrace.tga
texture                                dacia, eb/data/models_unit/textures/hellenistic/ebhellenistic_cavalry_thrakioi_prodromoi_agart_dacia.tga
texture                                slave, eb/data/models_unit/textures/hellenistic/ebhellenistic_cavalry_thrakioi_prodromoi_agart_dacia.tga
texture                                merc, eb/data/models_unit/textures/hellenistic/ebhellenistic_cavalry_thrakioi_prodromoi_agart_merc.tga

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also didn't the evocata and the imperial/or the praetorians -I dont remember that well- had the same unit model but diferent skins?

I think people are getting confused. The scarcity of models is not an issue in EBII. It is the limited number of unit slots that is an issue. Talking of models or skins is not relevant to the OPs argument.

Foot

Is it possible to insert a poll after the thread has been opened? I would like to see what people think of it.

Thread Tools -> Add Poll to Thread. That might just be a moderator thing though. Don't know.

Foot

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

I was going to post it but I decided that it's more fun if I queried Google for my reply + 'definition'. See?

EDIT: And my reply wasn't the title you see there. <_<

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And so? Simply I agree with the OP but I also fear that some players would be unhappy - without reason, since I really support the EB project.

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Originally Posted by Foot

Thread Tools -> Add Poll to Thread. That might just be a moderator thing though. Don't know.

Foot

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Doesn't work for me. Most be a moderator thing.

This is a rather interesting debate, because I have been an exclusive Romani player since I started playing EB and in the countless campaigns I have played, I have honestly reached the Marian Reforms less than five times and have never reached the Imperial Reforms.

It's simple, most die-hard Roman players have never legitimately reached that stage, so why miss something you've never seen. The real question is why have so few been able to reach the Imperial reforms without cheating, losing their minds, or having Ptolemy be the only enemy left on the map by the time they reach it.

Why? Because although the mod is designed to be played out for hundreds of years, the AI's bloodlust against you forces many reasonable players to either win the game, or quit out of frustration, far before even the Marian (nevertheless the Imperial) reforms. This makes the Imperial reforms useless, because not only are there no real enemies left to attack, but the imperial units are just different looking Marian units. When the AI forces you to be at war on so many fronts, nonstop, without the possibility of a ceasefire, it is easy to see why so many dedicated Roman players get burned out or frustrated before they reach the Imperial Reforms.

With all of this, I would say keep it for now. Since the AI can be programmed in EBII let's wait and see what happens. Although I totally understand not having imperial reforms in EB I.

If it truly does have to come down to removing old units to add units for the new factions why would you remove something that is so symbolic to one of the most important nations in history? Why not just remove units like the civic guards from the Marian reforms? or the unit (cant remember name off the top of my head) that is below the hastati? both of those units have little or now tactical or strategic value. Or if you are truly desperate why not take out some of the redundant and generic skirmisher units? There are so many kinds that iv lost count and many are sub par. Augustan units are a goal that players seek when playing Rome and I have campaigns that have come close to acquiring them without cheating and im sure many others have as well.

Using the armour upgrade system you can use multiple skins for the same unit.

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Originally Posted by Lord Of Ruin

If it truly does have to come down to removing old units to add units for the new factions why would you remove something that is so symbolic to one of the most important nations in history?

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that...

I'm all for removing them.

Most people will never get them anyway, and to use so many of the precious unit slots for one faction's needs (even if it is Rome)...

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Originally Posted by Lord Of Ruin

If it truly does have to come down to removing old units to add units for the new factions why would you remove something that is so symbolic to one of the most important nations in history? Why not just remove units like the civic guards from the Marian reforms? or the unit (cant remember name off the top of my head) that is below the hastati? both of those units have little or now tactical or strategic value. Or if you are truly desperate why not take out some of the redundant and generic skirmisher units? There are so many kinds that iv lost count and many are sub par. Augustan units are a goal that players seek when playing Rome and I have campaigns that have come close to acquiring them without cheating and im sure many others have as well.

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Because the Marian reforms (and thus units related to it) are reach-able. Imperial reforms few people actually reach without cheating, and frankly with the campaign AI as it is, the situation when it does arrive bears little resemblance to how things were in history.

Please vote in the poll I opened in a seperate thread.

I voted yes to remove the Augustan reforms in the poll thread, but I wonder if it would work to integrate a few of the Augustan units into either the Marian set or a sub-reform of a couple of units (aka the Praetorian guards) if you accomplish the Augustan requirements. This would free up the majority of the Imperial unit slots for other factions, while keeping the signiture units (Praetorians) so that people can still have the feeling of building the Roman Principate.

Another idea is that the Team could leave the decision up to the players when they install the game whether to include the Augustans or have other factions' units in the game.

Chairman

In my farthest reaching Romani campaign, I got an Augustus around 215 BC. Yes, freaking incredible isn´t it.
I had gotten the Marians maybe 10 years earlier by taking 90 regions, or rather just taking all the VC´s. Anyway, my African Vetus(? the one with Carthage and the big cities) governor suddenly got the High Ambitions trait, I made him heir and the very next turn my faction leader died a natural death. Hooray! I have an Emperor! Augustus! Hail Imperator! Yaay!
I sailed him Roma and installed him a Augustus, I everything was great and everyone was really really happy. Then I began wondering about the Augustan reforms. Turns out, I´ve got about 95 years to go until I can get them! No!
And I´m not even sure if they will work, since my Augustus will be dead by then, and I don´t know what happens with the Augustan reforms if the Augustus at the time don´t have all the requirements needed.
Anyway, 95 years to find out? I´ve already taken evrything I want to take, and the only reason I´m not the only faction left on the map is the fact that I´ve let most factions be except when the attack me. 95 years when I´ve already accomplished everything I want to do is a very long time. 10 years later I have established lots of buffer kingdoms by taking provinces from the Sweboz and Seleukids and gifting them to the Casse and Baktria, thus only leaving me with the task of managing +90 regions and hunting down rebels for +90 regions.
So, just 85 years left. 370 turns. Argh!
Let´s face it, getting the Augustan reforms isn´t very hard, but it is so utterly boring and mindnumbing that very, very few people have ever done it.
Now the EB team might do new stuff in EB2 that will change everything, I don´t know. But as it is right now I will vote for the Augustan reforms to be removed for the inclusion of other, more sorely needed units.
My two ören.