The Dutch

We had them on France, America, Germany or just about everything, but you would almost forget about that tiny little country called the Netherlands, which despite it's tiny size can be quite the subject of both disgust and admiration. We do things different here in many ways. Maybe the dutch are more subject to generalisations then the other european country's but something is wrong. There is us being soddom&gommora and there is us being boring calvinists, some consider us to be very friendly and some consider us to be very rude, we don't really have a solid label and that is starting to sting. At least the french are hated, the flemmish get mocked, and the germans are german. How would you non-dutchies define our tiny little space on this clay grown tall.

hmm, well over here in the UK, weed is instantly the first thing that comes to mind when anyone mentions netherlands, prostitution is another.....

All in all when i think of nethlands i tend to think of very relaxed attitudes towards social issues, basically a bunch of cool people with a progressive attitude...

Just like the U.S. the Netherlands fought to overthrow the shackles of an oppressive monarchy ruling their country from a faraway place, and succeeded in securing their independence and religious freedom.

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Originally Posted by rvg

Just like the U.S. the Netherlands fought to overthrow the shackles of an oppressive monarchy ruling their country from a faraway place, and succeeded in securing their independence and religious freedom.

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That's a rather modern point of view, it wasn't odd to the dutch to be governed by a spanish king, no such things as 'country's' at that time. The father of King Phillip II we had so much trouble with was actually born in what is now the Netherlands.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

That's a rather modern point of view, it wasn't odd to the dutch to be governed by a spanish king, no such things as 'country's' at that time. The father of King Phillip II we had so much trouble with was actually born in what is now the Netherlands.

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Just like the American colonists were loyal subjects of the British crown until the good old King George decided that he could mistreat and disrespect us.

Well protection aint free ya know :tongue:

Wasn't it parliment that set the taxes rather than the king ? (unsure)

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

Well protection aint free ya know :tongue:

Wasn't it parliment that set the taxes rather than the king ? (unsure)

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Either way. I'm gonna try to help keep this thred Dutch: Levees, Windmills, Tulips, Drugs, Hookers == good stuff.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

How would you non-dutchies define our tiny little space on this clay grown tall.

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It's great! Friendly people, gorgeous women, good beer! I especially loved Tivoli, Carlsberg and the Little Mermaid statue! :2thumbsup:

When I hear “Dutch” I think of our Dutch, the ones in Holland, MI. – they are cheep, simple meat and potato eaters, of giant proportion, and a bit arrogant and egotistical, the Dutch genome seems to generate the largest people on the planet.

To think outside my monkeysphere, when I hear “Dutch” I think of loose sex and drug laws and this quote…
Nigel Powers: All right Goldmember. Don't play the laughing boy. There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

It's great! Friendly people, gorgeous women, good beer! I especially loved Tivoli, Carlsberg and the Little Mermaid statue! :2thumbsup:

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Oh damn you. Tivoli is great by the way especially that rollercoaster that looks like a bee, I mean you can look into peoples houses!

Two types of ideas come to mind when I think of the Netherlands.

On the one hand there's Amsterdam, with the prostitution, drugs, very pro-EU, and very liberal and obsessed with being green. A progressive image to some.

Then on the other hand there's the windmills, little wooden shoes, lots of flowers and canals, a nice picturesque setting in general.

Oh yeah, plus lots of really bright orange!

...are (as the host of Top Gear put it) the coolest race on earth. :flowers: :netherlands:

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Just like the U.S. the Netherlands fought to overthrow the shackles of an oppressive monarchy ruling their country from a faraway place, and succeeded in securing their independence and religious freedom.

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That, and the fact that they respected people's freedom of choice to do what they want with their own bodies'. In short, the greatest nation on earth. And that is coming from an american.

I want to move there.

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

All in all when i think of nethlands i tend to think of very relaxed attitudes towards social issues, basically a bunch of cool people with a progressive attitude...

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Two types of ideas come to mind when I think of the Netherlands.

On the one hand there's Amsterdam, with the prostitution, drugs, very pro-EU, and very liberal and obsessed with being green. A progressive image to some.

Then on the other hand there's the windmills, little wooden shoes, lots of flowers and canals, a nice picturesque setting in general.

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These two gentlemen have pretty much summed up my feelings on -- and view of -- the Netherlands and her people. Progressive, yet also charmingly quaint. :bow:

Great country - always had a good time there - relaxed and friendly people. I really like to work with colleagues in the Netherlands (direct and to the point they are).

Gping to Amsterdam or Utrecht has always been a great time (which reminds me that we really have to visit some friends again this spring - looking forward to our favourite Appelbollen(?) in Utrecht)

The rivalry between the Dutch and Germans tends to be very overated - I think we became great neighbours over the last decades

:bow:

Apart from what has already been mentioned I have always admired the Dutch business acumen. Tulip Mania immediately springs to mind, and of course, buying Manhattan for $24 dollars in shiny trinkets. :laugh4:

The Dutch summed up in one minute.
In addition to what has been said above, I would also include the Dutch reputation for being stingy buggers.

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Originally Posted by King Henry V

The Dutch summed up in one minute.
In addition to what has been said above, I would also include the Dutch reputation for being stingy buggers.

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Sweet! Look what I found: http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=OGqX-t...ature=featured

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

It's great! Friendly people, gorgeous women, good beer! I especially loved Tivoli, Carlsberg and the Little Mermaid statue! :2thumbsup:

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Isn't Carlsberg Danish beer?

On topic - weed, sex, riotous living, more sex and weed, liberal, more sex and weed, good beer and more sex and weed...

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Originally Posted by Fragony

How would you non-dutchies define our tiny little space on this clay grown tall.

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Clogs. Clogs and cannabis.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Isn't Carlsberg Danish beer?

On topic - weed, sex, riotous living, more sex and weed, liberal, more sex and weed, good beer and more sex and weed...

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So is the little mermaid statue. Oh louis you joker you.

On topic - weed, sex, riotous living, more sex and weed, liberal, more sex and weed, mediocre beer and more sex and weed.

Hey somebody had to say it. In the land of the blind, the cyclops is king.

But yeah, the Netherlands is a pretty sweet country.

the fact that is most prominent is that you have a Royal Marines and that they train with ours, so the Dutch Armed Forces cacn't be all bad. :)

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Originally Posted by rvg

Just like the American colonists were loyal subjects of the British crown until the good old King George decided that he could mistreat and disrespect us.

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It's good to see that the 230 year old spin is still effective. :shame:

As for the Dutchys, I like them. In the the 80s I had a very good friend who moved back to Aalsmeer when his marriage broke up. In fact he was the roundabout reason I got into computers. We used to play chess on sundays and when he went 'home' I bought a rubber mat Spectrum so that I could carry on playing chess.

One shock I had was when I stayed at his house one night and he asked me if I'd like some ham and eggs for brekky. It was ham and eggs but not what I was expecting, it was boiled ham. :dizzy2:

Oh clogs, windmills and tulips spring to mind as well as hashish and tarts. What a country! :2thumbsup:

I have a very good friend who is dutch, we also have a lot in common, I always call him Papa...

Anyway, I think the dutch are very nice people etc, as has been said already.
They're also my team of choice in FIFA 09 although I might have chosen a somewhat older cadre, but the dutch are also a good football team for me that deserved to win cups often but then let everybody down and stopped playing for some reason. Maybe they're just humble. :shrug:

The Dutch? Drug-addled millers with wooden shoes, mostly.

They realise that as a small nation it would be awfully embaressing for the other football powers if the dutch won something, humble, putting others first... is there no end to dutch virtues...

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Originally Posted by Fragony

We had them on France, America, Germany or just about everything, but you would almost forget about that tiny little country called the Netherlands, which despite it's tiny size can be quite the subject of both disgust and admiration. We do things different here in many ways. Maybe the dutch are more subject to generalisations then the other european country's but something is wrong. There is us being soddom&gommora and there is us being boring calvinists, some consider us to be very friendly and some consider us to be very rude, we don't really have a solid label and that is starting to sting. At least the french are hated, the flemmish get mocked, and the germans are german. How would you non-dutchies define our tiny little space on this clay grown tall.

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great people, very beautiful women.

In the USA the common thought is simply: weed.

I think a bit differently of a culture with interesting historical roots, an interestingly different, yet similar culture to those around them. I find it would be a nice place to live and intend to visit this summer. :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

I really like to work with colleagues in the Netherlands (direct and to the point they are).

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Often mistaken with rudeness, just dutch working ethics. It is expected from you that you work your :balloon2: of. Always hated having to call foreign contacts; enough with the pleasantries already.

The Dutch? :inquisitive:

Hmm...

Four things pop into my mind right away:

1) Weed. :hippie: :smoking:

2) Hookers. :belly:

3) Tulips :daisy:


And, of course, 4) Fragony :soapbox:






~:grouphug:

I forgot the ships. There is something about the Dutch that reminds me of them.

The Netherlands are an interesting nation. I've been on three trips there, and seen all sorts of things, from actual milkmaids going to their cows in the morning, to some guy who looked like a really pale Lou Reed in a trench coat, chasing after a man with a very stiff face, and yelling "Come on (guy's name)! Come on, man! Don't do this. Don't do this to me man!"






If I had to some up the populace in one word, it would be: Merchants.

Why is everybody so endlessly fascinated with the Netherlands choice to decriminlize marijauna and sex-for-hire?

I mean, give them points for libertarianism, sure, but as the defining image of a culture?


I think of polders and merchant guild and banking and ice skates and such.


Perhaps its my status as a non-user that influences this? Or my age?

Because it's something that's unique, or very rare at least. There are a lot of other countries with tulips, developed banking or diamond trade. but such a totally hedonistic-libertarian paradise??? Just Netherlands :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Why is everybody so endlessly fascinated with the Netherlands choice to decriminlize marijauna and sex-for-hire?

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I realise the question i semi-hypothetical, but I'll answer it regardless, since I was pretty much thinking the same thing.

Firstly, it is a big world and the Netherlands is a small country. People can't have an extensive knowledge or even elaborate stereotypes about the entire world. So stereotypes are limited. Brazil - beach, bikinis and football. New Zealand - nature, rugby and sheep. The Netherlands - drugs and prostitution.

Secondly, this is owing to the Netherlands itself. The Dutch are part embarrassed*, part a-historical**, part uncultured***. The tragedy is that they have not always been like this. The Dutch trading towns are in historical importance, in artistic and architectural merit, even in sheer beauty, every bit the equal of the Italian city-states, or of the great Flemish towns. Just the province of Holland alone is peerless in Europe: Amsterdam, Leyden, Haarlem, Delft, Rotterdam, the Hague. An empire was run from here, global trade was conducted from here and even developed here, art flourished, censored books were printed, philosophy flourished, law flourished. Henry Mechoulan wrote a book, 'Amsterdam au temps de Spinoza', which is probably not available in English. It is astonishing. For full century, not the Spanish, British or French were the centre of European civilization, but a few acres of wetland. Which, to top it all of, these semi-amphibian Masters of the Universe forged themselves from the bottom of the sea.

If you visit it though, you'll have to look for it. In every village, every French town, everywhere in europe, there are signs that direct you to the house of famous historical persons. If there isn't any, they'll invent one. Any structure that is over two centuries old is protected. Old landscapes are still intact. There is a pride in it. The Netherlands on the other hand feel like it has been taken over by aliens, colonised. They don't promote their old culture, they don't love. They are embarrased about it, want to be modern. It is like with Italy and antiquity, there is so much of it that it is carelessly left to rot. It is maddening. One can visit the Netherlands and remain completely oblivious of its history.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For example:

Amsterdam is a sad place. Once, simultanously!, Spinoza and Descartes created modern thought, and Rembrandt and Vermeer worked here, and Grotius developed modern law, and more books were printed than in the rest of Europe combined. And now? Now the place is handed over to prostitutes, pimps, McDonalds, English stag and hen parties, piss, alcohol and endless 'XXX Sex Shows!!'. It is a complete travesty.

The difference in historical pride between Flanders and Holland is shocking. Bruges looks like a dream, absolutely gorgeous and phenomenally restored. Prague, despite the onslaught of mass tourism remains an intact historical city, with some integrity. Copenhagen is every bit as liberal as Amsterdam, but without the nonsense.

Amsterdam could be Venice. It could also be Florence. Or Oxford. Even, shockingly, all three combined. Yet, it chooses to be a third rate :daisy:hole.

https://img505.imageshack.us/img505/...sterdambb0.jpg

*See: Embarrassment of Riches by Simon Schama.

**The Americans here can't go a topic without referring to the Founding Fathers, the English mention Magna Carta, Nelson, the Empire. The French go on and on about the Revolution and Republican values. However, when was the last time any Dutch poster here mentioned the Dutch Republican tradition, or Spinoza, or Grotius 'Mare Liberum'?

***See wikipedia's entry on 'Fragony'. ~;)

Very much my point, Louis, though much better developed and eloquently extended.

I am a bit of a libertarian myself. Though I personally would avoid most such legal vices, I really don't see the need to criminalize them (providing no harm is done to others and for consenting adults only).

If it were the defining "image" of my culture, however, I would be horrifically embarrassed. The image of an entire county centered on a Seaman first's ideal liberty port? :daisy:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Very much my point, Louis, though much better developed and eloquently extended.

I am a bit of a libertarian myself. Though I personally would avoid most such legal vices, I really don't see the need to criminalize them (providing no harm is done to others and for consenting adults only).

If it were the defining "image" of my culture, however, I would be horrifically embarrassed. The image of an entire county centered on a Seaman first's ideal liberty port? :daisy:

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Interesting. I never thought of it as a seamen port. :laugh4:

The usual generalizations: weed and hookers, windmills, tulips, and clogs. Plus tall people (the better to breathe when the floods hit! ~D), the incredible dikes (to prevent said floods), and the Dutch Master.

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Originally Posted by drone

The usual generalizations: weed and hookers, windmills, tulips, and clogs. Plus tall people (the better to breathe when the floods hit! ~D), the incredible dikes (to prevent said floods), and the Dutch Master.

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I get "sorry, this video is no longer availabe" so the joke is lost....:shame:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

I get "sorry, this video is no longer availabe" so the joke is lost....:shame:

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No joke, just class.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFvX...eature=related

There are some vids of this in English, but the ones with the Dutch commentator are the best. :2thumbsup:

For me, Netherlands is the home of Alfred.

"Amsterdam? Isn't that...like....the place where you can smoke weed without getting busted dude?"

Basic label of the Netherlands, at least around here, is they're very relaxed with their laws, and it's a druggy get together nation. :sweatdrop:

There are many astonishing things about the Dutch, but we seem to have forgotten the most iconic - of which the following is merely one of the best examples:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...grae/gwape.jpg

It was not God, but the Dutch masters that invented light. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

there is so much of it that it is carelessly left to rot.

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Amsterdam has one of the world's best preserved historical centre's :inquisitive:

pot brownies and loose women. Oh and all of this is done in clogs and then at some point they put them outside and Santa Claus stuffs them. Which leads me to belive the Dutch get the short end of the stick on Christmas. Santa must be a Belgian.

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Why is everybody so endlessly fascinated with the Netherlands choice to decriminlize marijauna and sex-for-hire?

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because it should be like that in every nation!

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Originally Posted by AlexanderSextus

because it should be like that in every nation!

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There is a darker side to all that, you would almost forget that these women are usually from eastern europe and aren't doing it because they like it so much they are forced, prostitution is still the realm of organized crime there is nothing progressive about legalizing prostitution it's looking away from a very cynical, and in our case, massive trade.

I remember discussing this issue with you a while ago....

I think prostitution should be legalised but it seems they haven't put strict enough rules and regulations in Netherlands to make it work...

The idea behind legalisation is that it would take organised crime out of it, or at least force them to give the workers certain rights, and it also gives them an avenue to complain to the goverment (the workers) because they are no longer criminals...

The other side of it is health and safety, if its a legalised trade then things like condoms are health and safety and various other rules to protect the workers and customers from transfering diseases... i assume this part does work in Netherlands ?

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

The other side of it is health and safety, if its a legalised trade then things like condoms are health and safety and various other rules to protect the workers and customers from transfering diseases... i assume this part does work in Netherlands ?

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Yes we did,

It does on the red-lights, but the red lights are a disneyland for adults, behind that facade is a lot of human suffering I think it's a sad sad place if I could close it down I wouldn't hesitate to do so, private clubs and escort service fine these girls do it out of their own choice, are well looked after and make a lot of money, girls are mostly students. Not all exploiters are bad a friend of mine has two girls in The Hague, they actually came to him, guy is a bit of a puppy nothing mean about him, he asked me in but I would never do that not my trade legal or not. The extra dark side, there are also unofficial places that are 'tolerated' that are as sinister as can be, there is nobody looking out for these girls and they don't get very old, they stand in the cold in a line and wait for a car to pick them up it's rediculous that is allowed.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Yes we did,

The extra dark side, there are also unofficial places that are 'tolerated' that are as sinister as can be, there is nobody looking out for these girls and they don't get very old, they stand in the cold in a line and wait for a car to pick them up it's rediculous that is allowed.

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That is quite ridiculous and should be illegal, but the ones who willingly choose and enjoy the oldest profession in the world should be kept legal and safe.

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nothing progressive about legalizing prostitution that is linked to organized crime and is not a legitimate buisiness

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Fixed!!!

IMHO holland isnt that progressive any more... it just conservatively sticks to that image. You can call the (extreme) right wing progressive but I think they are not really contributing, so that would be POV.

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Originally Posted by Strike

pot brownies and loose women. Oh and all of this is done in clogs and then at some point they put them outside and Santa Claus stuffs them. Which leads me to belive the Dutch get the short end of the stick on Christmas. Santa must be a Belgian.

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We've got Saint Nicolas instead, wich is where you guys ripped the idea of Santa Claus from ~;p

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I realise the question i semi-hypothetical, but I'll answer it regardless, since I was pretty much thinking the same thing.

Firstly, it is a big world and the Netherlands is a small country. People can't have an extensive knowledge or even elaborate stereotypes about the entire world. So stereotypes are limited. Brazil - beach, bikinis and football. New Zealand - nature, rugby and sheep. The Netherlands - drugs and prostitution.

Secondly, this is owing to the Netherlands itself. The Dutch are part embarrassed*, part a-historical**, part uncultured***. The tragedy is that they have not always been like this. The Dutch trading towns are in historical importance, in artistic and architectural merit, even in sheer beauty, every bit the equal of the Italian city-states, or of the great Flemish towns. Just the province of Holland alone is peerless in Europe: Amsterdam, Leyden, Haarlem, Delft, Rotterdam, the Hague. An empire was run from here, global trade was conducted from here and even developed here, art flourished, censored books were printed, philosophy flourished, law flourished. Henry Mechoulan wrote a book, 'Amsterdam au temps de Spinoza', which is probably not available in English. It is astonishing. For full century, not the Spanish, British or French were the centre of European civilization, but a few acres of wetland. Which, to top it all of, these semi-amphibian Masters of the Universe forged themselves from the bottom of the sea.

If you visit it though, you'll have to look for it. In every village, every French town, everywhere in europe, there are signs that direct you to the house of famous historical persons. If there isn't any, they'll invent one. Any structure that is over two centuries old is protected. Old landscapes are still intact. There is a pride in it. The Netherlands on the other hand feel like it has been taken over by aliens, colonised. They don't promote their old culture, they don't love. They are embarrased about it, want to be modern. It is like with Italy and antiquity, there is so much of it that it is carelessly left to rot. It is maddening. One can visit the Netherlands and remain completely oblivious of its history.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For example:

Amsterdam is a sad place. Once, simultanously!, Spinoza and Descartes created modern thought, and Rembrandt and Vermeer worked here, and Grotius developed modern law, and more books were printed than in the rest of Europe combined. And now? Now the place is handed over to prostitutes, pimps, McDonalds, English stag and hen parties, piss, alcohol and endless 'XXX Sex Shows!!'. It is a complete travesty.

The difference in historical pride between Flanders and Holland is shocking. Bruges looks like a dream, absolutely gorgeous and phenomenally restored. Prague, despite the onslaught of mass tourism remains an intact historical city, with some integrity. Copenhagen is every bit as liberal as Amsterdam, but without the nonsense.

Amsterdam could be Venice. It could also be Florence. Or Oxford. Even, shockingly, all three combined. Yet, it chooses to be a third rate :daisy:hole.

https://img505.imageshack.us/img505/...sterdambb0.jpg

*See: Embarrassment of Riches by Simon Schama.

**The Americans here can't go a topic without referring to the Founding Fathers, the English mention Magna Carta, Nelson, the Empire. The French go on and on about the Revolution and Republican values. However, when was the last time any Dutch poster here mentioned the Dutch Republican tradition, or Spinoza, or Grotius 'Mare Liberum'?

***See wikipedia's entry on 'Fragony'. ~;)

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Historical knowledge/consciousness of the average Dutchman is atrocious. Other than William of Orange people'd be hard pressed to name any other important statesman or political figure from our history. Few have any idea what Hugo de Groot's or Erasmus' contributions to philosophy, or Leeuwenhoeks or Zernike's scientific achievements were. If this were any other country, the majority of people would at least know these people's names.

I don't think that this can be ascribed to any embarassment on our part. I think it's got more to do with down-to-earth disinterest in non-recent history, and having no particular need to bolster national pride.

As for Amsterdam, I've only visited it 3 times and never as an adult. Giving it a makeover to look like a 17th century city might make it more pitoresque but that'd be phony. We should really consider the idea of enabling everyone to open casinos instead of just the state, with already legalized prostitution and decriminalized weed we could become more legendary than Las Vegas and Babylon combined :smash:

The only Dutch people I know who actually live in the Ned's are the fellows here at the org. But I married a Dutch-American girl in '72 (her grandmother was the immigrant, from Amsterdam). So, my impression is based on those two sources.

A direct-speaking, hard-working, naturally curious, clever people, their free-wheeling Libertarian ways ("Live, and let live") are tempered by a Calvinist streak, so they vigorously defend personal freedom of choice with a zeal usually seen only among the religious.

They really, really, REALLY don't like to be told what to do, or be ordered about - neither do they tend to order others about. When happy, or contented, they spread their warm-fuzzy feeling to those around them. This is their usual state. When they are down, however, they go to internal brooding places so dark they would scare a Russian in mid-winter. I've learned to leave brooding Dutchies alone; they'll snap out of it soon enough on their own. I've never been able to assist them in those dark times.

They must be kept busy; idleness makes them brood.

Quite adventurous as young people (they love to travel), they grow more conservative and home-body-ish with age. They appreciate humour, but don't tell a joke very well.

My :2cents:

i can relate a bit to kukri's vision... oh kukri, youre soooo wise :P

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Originally Posted by The Stranger

i can relate a bit to kukri's vision... oh kukri, youre soooo wise :P

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So, what have the Undutchables been up to lately?

I like how the Dutch have their G's. energie, technologie, grootfontein...
so funny:2thumbsup:

Good people, I can't really stereotype them. I greatly enjoyed my visit there.

One thing that really impressed me about the Netherlands was the amount of work previous generations had done. I do woodworking as a hobby/sidejob. I examined old Dutch window frames very closely. I would estimate a master woodworker spent a week to make one window frame. Everything was carefully shaped and fit perfectly over 100 years later. America is all about production. Southern Europe is all about perfection. The Dutch seem to combine production and perfection.

I also thought a lot about the canals, and how rivers are elevated above the surrounding farmland. That's impressive civil engineering for any society. The Dutch accomplished these things centuries ago mostly with wooden shovels. The amount of labor involved is simply staggering.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

However, when was the last time any Dutch poster here mentioned the Dutch Republican tradition, or Spinoza, or Grotius 'Mare Liberum'?

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About five months ago, when I discussed Montesquieu with Seamus Fermanagh and others. That must have been during your sabbatical.

Anyhoo.. the test for real Dutchness is eating a raw herring with chopped onions and a pickle, in one go - dangle it above your head, let it slide in, then bite it off just before the tail.

You're back! You're back! :jumping::jumping:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

About five months ago, when I discussed Montesquieu with Seamus Fermanagh and others. That must have been during your sabbatical.

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I have absolutely no recollection of this. Maybe I was away.
But do you disagree with the point too? That the Dutch identity is constructed more on social progressiveness than on historical tradition?

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Anyhoo.. the test for real Dutchness is eating a raw herring with chopped onions and a pickle, in one go - dangle it above your head, let it slide in, then bite it off just before the tail.

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The Dutch are famous for shoving anything all the way down their throat. :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Fenrig

I don't think that this can be ascribed to any embarassment on our part.

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You are quite correct. Schama specifically spoke about the 17th century. In blissful ignorance I presumed this cultural trait still lingered on. :embarassed:

Talk about being stuck between two cultures. Pickles? Everybody knows that only in Amsterdam they serve herring with pickles and these barbarians chop the herring up into conveniently bitesize bits that are that much easier to consume. Idiots, eating a herring properly should be a trial by fire.

I think the problem with the national identity is just that there is not identity. The Dutch are basically a collection of several tiny communities, each with their own language and culture. Then, a central government promoted some sort of fake identity - the so-called 'Republiek der Batavieren' was used as a large umbrella over these communities, and 'the Netherlands' were born.

Most of the Dutch are simple people - a reason why they don't know much of culture, or history, is because they just don't care. It's not useful to them, and why spend time learning it while they can just enjoy their lives?

There's a lot of good things about my country. Also a lot of foul things I wish I could make go away.

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Originally Posted by Wasp

The Dutch are basically a collection of several tiny communities, each with their own language and culture. Then, a central government promoted some sort of fake identity - the so-called 'Republiek der Batavieren' was used as a large umbrella over these communities, and 'the Netherlands' were born.

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Right on the mark. Until 1814 the Dutch were a patchwork of local communities with diverging religions, languages and regional affinities. After King William I had been installed, the Calvinist ruling elite tried to unify the country and shape it according to its self-image. Its main instrument was the moral campaign, which created the impression that Dutch identity revolves around moral precepts such as hard work, hygiene, the security of public life (removal of beggars and thieves into workhouses, etcetera), and the sanctity of personal property and profit. For a time it certainly did. The subjects they campaigned on were issues that appealed to all religions and communities, both before and after the Belgian secession of 1830 removed a large Roman Catholic component from Dutch public life.

But the need to accommodate Catholics and Jews, to integrate cities and rural areas and to keep the nation together also required compromise and backroom politics. Hence a second Dutch tradition: moderation and accommodation are regarded as virtues, not as signs of (social or intellectual) weakness. A prime example of Dutch accomodation have always been the waterships, where people of all walks of life and personal convictions worked together for the common good of water management.

As for Dutch culture, we have always been so deeply influenced by the larger nations around us that we couldn't tell our own traditions from those of our neighbours. I'm cool with that. So are our business people who make money all across the world because they are used to adapting to other customs, cultures and languages.

Do contemporary Dutch still have a great work ethic? Or do you think their work ethic is much weaker than their grandparents had?

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Originally Posted by Mangudai

Do contemporary Dutch still have a great work ethic?

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Good enough, I would say. Productivity is as high as it ever was, foreign investors have no complaints. And the mentality is still as Fragony says: it's a git-er-done society.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

RAs for Dutch culture, we have always been so deeply influenced by the larger nations around us that we couldn't tell our own traditions from those of our neighbours.

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Yet we aren't like them, the dutch are a real people with their own traditions and customs, despite being hammed in by Germany, France and what is now left of the united kingdom. That is a small miracle, that we ruled the world for a century is unbelievable.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Yet we aren't like them, the dutch are a real people with their own traditions and customs, despite being hammed in by Germany, France and what is now left of the united kingdom.

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Define 'real'.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

That is a small miracle, that we ruled the world for a century is unbelievable.

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That's because it is untrue. The Dutch had a nice naval empire going which allowed them to play off the big powers against one another, but that doesn't equate to hegemony, let alone strategic dominance. Of much more importance was the fact highlighted (with some hyperbole) by Louis, namely that fact that the Low Countries were an enlightened Republic and a political inspiration to others.

Of course it is but it's our golden age regardless and pretty damn impressive.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Of course it is but it's our golden age regardless and pretty damn impressive.

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Yours maybe. I hadn't been born at the time.

I'll tell you what. I have a friend in Nijmegen whose ancestor went on the first Crusade, and guess what, his sword has been preserved and it is still in the family. How cool is that? Eh?

But my friend never claims that it was he who conquered Jerusalem in 1099.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Yours maybe. I hadn't been born at the time.

I'll tell you what. I have a friend in Nijmegen whose ancestor went on the first Crusade, and guess what, his sword has been preserved and it is still in the family. How cool is that? Eh?

But my friend never claims that it was he who conquered Jerusalem in 1099.

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I'm fairly sure this would be a great way to get chicks, Dutch or not.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Yours maybe. I hadn't been born at the time.

I'll tell you what. I have a friend in Nijmegen whose ancestor went on the first Crusade, and guess what, his sword has been preserved and it is still in the family. How cool is that? Eh?

But my friend never claims that it was he who conquered Jerusalem in 1099.

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Every old family does, there has been quite an extensive trade in fake crusader-charts. But I don't get your point, I just say that the dutch are their own people, their own language their own traditions their own oddities. You know someone who doesn't claim to have conquered Jeruzalem in 1099 which I believe because Jeruzalem was conquered in 1098.

“the test for real Dutchness is eating a raw herring with chopped onions and a pickle, in one go - dangle it above your head, let it slide in, then bite it off just before the tail.” I did it: nothing special to report.

I worked for a Dutch Charities for few years. It was a mixture of efficiency, greed, almost-professionalism and family business…
To negotiate (or report) contracts with Dutch Foreign Ministry (or Embassy) was always nice and almost informal. Contact with the ambassadors (in all countries) are easy, (unlike with the French) similar with the US personal. Changing budget line is possible if you stay within the budget, and they are very reasonable people.
Side comment, the only reasonable comments during NATO bombing campaign I heard were on a Dutch Channel.
In fact the Dutch TV was the only channel where opponents to this war were heard without been mocked or/and ridiculed…
The Dutch proud themselves about to be pragmatic and efficient (at least the one I worked with). They were nice people and I mostly enjoyed working with them.
We never came real friends, but it never happened in Charities any way (turn-over).

And here comes the dark side.
Their acceptance of “what other do until it doesn’t hurt me” is as well called indifference or hypocrisy. Prostitution and drugs are all right if it is not their children doing or using it.
A friend of mine working The Hague Tribunal suffered a lot there of loneliness.
She ended to think that all this so-called liberalism is in fact a cover for a superb selfishness and egocentricity excluding any empathy for the others.
Pragmatism can lead to do things absolutely atrocious (if we can’t do something about it, just do it) as illustrated but the deportation of the Jews of Amsterdam.
The real Politic / pragmatism can be easily turned in a nasty way.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

And here comes the dark side.
Their acceptance of “what other do until it doesn’t hurt me” is as well called indifference or hypocrisy. Prostitution and drugs are all right if it is not their children doing or using it.
A friend of mine working The Hague Tribunal suffered a lot there of loneliness.
She ended to think that all this so-called liberalism is in fact a cover for a superb selfishness and egocentricity excluding any empathy for the others.

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But of course, what's in a word, when you tolerate something you allow something you don't agree with. Nothing hypocritical about it, do what you want as long as it doesn't affect me. Consequences of a nanny state people become selfish. I am from the countryside, if your house burns down and you aren't properly insured don't be surprised if the community collected enough money to build you a new one. In the city's it is different.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

But I don't get your point

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Quite. My point is that there is no 'we', no collective that spans centuries. You and I are connected to our ancestors only in the genealogical sense.

I hate to disappoint you, Fragony, but you and I never had an empire. Nor did you and I fight at Waterloo, deport Jews for the nazi's, or rescue victims of the 1956 flooding disaster in the province of Zeeland.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

(..) because Jeruzalem was conquered in 1098.

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Tsk tsk

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Quite. My point is that there is no 'we', no collective that spans centuries. You and I are connected to our ancestors only in the genealogical sense.

I hate to disappoint you, Fragony, but you and I never had an empire. Nor did you and I fight at Waterloo, deport Jews for the nazi's, or rescue victims of the 1956 flooding disaster in the province of Zeeland.

Tsk tsk

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Dangit 1099 it is. Again don't get your point, I just say there is such a thing as a dutch identity. You claim there is no such thing? That would get us somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Dangit 1099 it is. Again don't get your point, I just say there is such a thing as a dutch identity. You claim there is no such thing? That would get us somewhere.

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The joke is that people always claim the glorious aspects of the national past as 'theirs' and discard the rest. Is the seventeenth century Dutch trade empire in my genes? Then so is the illiterate peasantry of the province of Drenthe, or the colonial massacres like Rawagade, or the collaboration with the nazi's between 1940 and 1945.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

The joke is that people always claim the glorious aspects of the national past as 'theirs' and discard the rest. Is the seventeenth century Dutch trade empire in my genes? Then so is the illiterate peasantry of the province of Drenthe, or the colonial massacres like Rawagade, or the collaboration with the nazi's between 1940 and 1945.

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So if I get things straight acknowledging that the dutch did pretty well in the past is really one step away from channeling Hitler? That does make sense in a rather nonsensical sort of way.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

The joke is that people always claim the glorious aspects of the national past as 'theirs' and discard the rest. Is the seventeenth century Dutch trade empire in my genes? Then so is the illiterate peasantry of the province of Drenthe, or the colonial massacres like Rawagade, or the collaboration with the nazi's between 1940 and 1945.

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I seem to recall a general strike being called over the forced deportation of the Jews. The only occupied country to engage in direct action against that edict of the Third Reich. (and largely get away with it!) I'd be righty proud of that if I was a Dutchman.

Please carry on gentlemen.

No dutchman heard of that one and those that do know it's not-done to bring up, when it comes to the dutch in WW2 believing is not enough you have to know we collaborated and couldn't wait to hand over these nosy fella's. Lest we never forget :yes:

I remember it from the excellent World at War produced back in the '70s. I'm now furiously looking for a link to back me up. :laugh4: