The Dutch

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Why is everybody so endlessly fascinated with the Netherlands choice to decriminlize marijauna and sex-for-hire?

I mean, give them points for libertarianism, sure, but as the defining image of a culture?


I think of polders and merchant guild and banking and ice skates and such.


Perhaps its my status as a non-user that influences this? Or my age?

[Sarmatian]

Because it's something that's unique, or very rare at least. There are a lot of other countries with tulips, developed banking or diamond trade. but such a totally hedonistic-libertarian paradise??? Just Netherlands

[Louis VI the Fat]

Why is everybody so endlessly fascinated with the Netherlands choice to decriminlize marijauna and sex-for-hire?

I realise the question i semi-hypothetical, but I'll answer it regardless, since I was pretty much thinking the same thing.

Firstly, it is a big world and the Netherlands is a small country. People can't have an extensive knowledge or even elaborate stereotypes about the entire world. So stereotypes are limited. Brazil - beach, bikinis and football. New Zealand - nature, rugby and sheep. The Netherlands - drugs and prostitution.

Secondly, this is owing to the Netherlands itself. The Dutch are part embarrassed*, part a-historical**, part uncultured***. The tragedy is that they have not always been like this. The Dutch trading towns are in historical importance, in artistic and architectural merit, even in sheer beauty, every bit the equal of the Italian city-states, or of the great Flemish towns. Just the province of Holland alone is peerless in Europe: Amsterdam, Leyden, Haarlem, Delft, Rotterdam, the Hague. An empire was run from here, global trade was conducted from here and even developed here, art flourished, censored books were printed, philosophy flourished, law flourished. Henry Mechoulan wrote a book, 'Amsterdam au temps de Spinoza', which is probably not available in English. It is astonishing. For full century, not the Spanish, British or French were the centre of European civilization, but a few acres of wetland. Which, to top it all of, these semi-amphibian Masters of the Universe forged themselves from the bottom of the sea.

If you visit it though, you'll have to look for it. In every village, every French town, everywhere in europe, there are signs that direct you to the house of famous historical persons. If there isn't any, they'll invent one. Any structure that is over two centuries old is protected. Old landscapes are still intact. There is a pride in it. The Netherlands on the other hand feel like it has been taken over by aliens, colonised. They don't promote their old culture, they don't love. They are embarrased about it, want to be modern. It is like with Italy and antiquity, there is so much of it that it is carelessly left to rot. It is maddening. One can visit the Netherlands and remain completely oblivious of its history.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For example:

Amsterdam is a sad place. Once, simultanously!, Spinoza and Descartes created modern thought, and Rembrandt and Vermeer worked here, and Grotius developed modern law, and more books were printed than in the rest of Europe combined. And now? Now the place is handed over to prostitutes, pimps, McDonalds, English stag and hen parties, piss, alcohol and endless 'XXX Sex Shows!!'. It is a complete travesty.

The difference in historical pride between Flanders and Holland is shocking. Bruges looks like a dream, absolutely gorgeous and phenomenally restored. Prague, despite the onslaught of mass tourism remains an intact historical city, with some integrity. Copenhagen is every bit as liberal as Amsterdam, but without the nonsense.

Amsterdam could be Venice. It could also be Florence. Or Oxford. Even, shockingly, all three combined. Yet, it chooses to be a third rate hole.

*See: Embarrassment of Riches by Simon Schama.

**The Americans here can't go a topic without referring to the Founding Fathers, the English mention Magna Carta, Nelson, the Empire. The French go on and on about the Revolution and Republican values. However, when was the last time any Dutch poster here mentioned the Dutch Republican tradition, or Spinoza, or Grotius 'Mare Liberum'?

***See wikipedia's entry on 'Fragony'.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Very much my point, Louis, though much better developed and eloquently extended.

I am a bit of a libertarian myself. Though I personally would avoid most such legal vices, I really don't see the need to criminalize them (providing no harm is done to others and for consenting adults only).

If it were the defining "image" of my culture, however, I would be horrifically embarrassed. The image of an entire county centered on a Seaman first's ideal liberty port?

[Vladimir]

Very much my point, Louis, though much better developed and eloquently extended.

I am a bit of a libertarian myself. Though I personally would avoid most such legal vices, I really don't see the need to criminalize them (providing no harm is done to others and for consenting adults only).

If it were the defining "image" of my culture, however, I would be horrifically embarrassed. The image of an entire county centered on a Seaman first's ideal liberty port?

Interesting. I never thought of it as a seamen port.

[drone]

The usual generalizations: weed and hookers, windmills, tulips, and clogs. Plus tall people (the better to breathe when the floods hit! ), the incredible dikes (to prevent said floods), and the Dutch Master.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The usual generalizations: weed and hookers, windmills, tulips, and clogs. Plus tall people (the better to breathe when the floods hit! ), the incredible dikes (to prevent said floods), and the Dutch Master.

I get "sorry, this video is no longer availabe" so the joke is lost....

[drone]

I get "sorry, this video is no longer availabe" so the joke is lost....

No joke, just class.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFvX...eature=related

There are some vids of this in English, but the ones with the Dutch commentator are the best.

[Fragony]

there is so much of it that it is carelessly left to rot.

Amsterdam has one of the world's best preserved historical centre's

[Strike For The South]

pot brownies and loose women. Oh and all of this is done in clogs and then at some point they put them outside and Santa Claus stuffs them. Which leads me to belive the Dutch get the short end of the stick on Christmas. Santa must be a Belgian.

[AlexanderSextus]

Why is everybody so endlessly fascinated with the Netherlands choice to decriminlize marijauna and sex-for-hire?

because it should be like that in every nation!

[Fragony]

because it should be like that in every nation!

There is a darker side to all that, you would almost forget that these women are usually from eastern europe and aren't doing it because they like it so much they are forced, prostitution is still the realm of organized crime there is nothing progressive about legalizing prostitution it's looking away from a very cynical, and in our case, massive trade.

[LittleGrizzly]

I remember discussing this issue with you a while ago....

I think prostitution should be legalised but it seems they haven't put strict enough rules and regulations in Netherlands to make it work...

The idea behind legalisation is that it would take organised crime out of it, or at least force them to give the workers certain rights, and it also gives them an avenue to complain to the goverment (the workers) because they are no longer criminals...

The other side of it is health and safety, if its a legalised trade then things like condoms are health and safety and various other rules to protect the workers and customers from transfering diseases... i assume this part does work in Netherlands ?

[Kralizec]

pot brownies and loose women. Oh and all of this is done in clogs and then at some point they put them outside and Santa Claus stuffs them. Which leads me to belive the Dutch get the short end of the stick on Christmas. Santa must be a Belgian.

We've got Saint Nicolas instead, wich is where you guys ripped the idea of Santa Claus from

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I realise the question i semi-hypothetical, but I'll answer it regardless, since I was pretty much thinking the same thing.

Firstly, it is a big world and the Netherlands is a small country. People can't have an extensive knowledge or even elaborate stereotypes about the entire world. So stereotypes are limited. Brazil - beach, bikinis and football. New Zealand - nature, rugby and sheep. The Netherlands - drugs and prostitution.

Secondly, this is owing to the Netherlands itself. The Dutch are part embarrassed*, part a-historical**, part uncultured***. The tragedy is that they have not always been like this. The Dutch trading towns are in historical importance, in artistic and architectural merit, even in sheer beauty, every bit the equal of the Italian city-states, or of the great Flemish towns. Just the province of Holland alone is peerless in Europe: Amsterdam, Leyden, Haarlem, Delft, Rotterdam, the Hague. An empire was run from here, global trade was conducted from here and even developed here, art flourished, censored books were printed, philosophy flourished, law flourished. Henry Mechoulan wrote a book, 'Amsterdam au temps de Spinoza', which is probably not available in English. It is astonishing. For full century, not the Spanish, British or French were the centre of European civilization, but a few acres of wetland. Which, to top it all of, these semi-amphibian Masters of the Universe forged themselves from the bottom of the sea.

If you visit it though, you'll have to look for it. In every village, every French town, everywhere in europe, there are signs that direct you to the house of famous historical persons. If there isn't any, they'll invent one. Any structure that is over two centuries old is protected. Old landscapes are still intact. There is a pride in it. The Netherlands on the other hand feel like it has been taken over by aliens, colonised. They don't promote their old culture, they don't love. They are embarrased about it, want to be modern. It is like with Italy and antiquity, there is so much of it that it is carelessly left to rot. It is maddening. One can visit the Netherlands and remain completely oblivious of its history.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For example:

Amsterdam is a sad place. Once, simultanously!, Spinoza and Descartes created modern thought, and Rembrandt and Vermeer worked here, and Grotius developed modern law, and more books were printed than in the rest of Europe combined. And now? Now the place is handed over to prostitutes, pimps, McDonalds, English stag and hen parties, piss, alcohol and endless 'XXX Sex Shows!!'. It is a complete travesty.

The difference in historical pride between Flanders and Holland is shocking. Bruges looks like a dream, absolutely gorgeous and phenomenally restored. Prague, despite the onslaught of mass tourism remains an intact historical city, with some integrity. Copenhagen is every bit as liberal as Amsterdam, but without the nonsense.

Amsterdam could be Venice. It could also be Florence. Or Oxford. Even, shockingly, all three combined. Yet, it chooses to be a third rate hole.

*See: Embarrassment of Riches by Simon Schama.

**The Americans here can't go a topic without referring to the Founding Fathers, the English mention Magna Carta, Nelson, the Empire. The French go on and on about the Revolution and Republican values. However, when was the last time any Dutch poster here mentioned the Dutch Republican tradition, or Spinoza, or Grotius 'Mare Liberum'?

***See wikipedia's entry on 'Fragony'.

Historical knowledge/consciousness of the average Dutchman is atrocious. Other than William of Orange people'd be hard pressed to name any other important statesman or political figure from our history. Few have any idea what Hugo de Groot's or Erasmus' contributions to philosophy, or Leeuwenhoeks or Zernike's scientific achievements were. If this were any other country, the majority of people would at least know these people's names.

I don't think that this can be ascribed to any embarassment on our part. I think it's got more to do with down-to-earth disinterest in non-recent history, and having no particular need to bolster national pride.

As for Amsterdam, I've only visited it 3 times and never as an adult. Giving it a makeover to look like a 17th century city might make it more pitoresque but that'd be phony. We should really consider the idea of enabling everyone to open casinos instead of just the state, with already legalized prostitution and decriminalized weed we could become more legendary than Las Vegas and Babylon combined

[KukriKhan]

The only Dutch people I know who actually live in the Ned's are the fellows here at the org. But I married a Dutch-American girl in '72 (her grandmother was the immigrant, from Amsterdam). So, my impression is based on those two sources.

A direct-speaking, hard-working, naturally curious, clever people, their free-wheeling Libertarian ways ("Live, and let live") are tempered by a Calvinist streak, so they vigorously defend personal freedom of choice with a zeal usually seen only among the religious.

They really, really, REALLY don't like to be told what to do, or be ordered about - neither do they tend to order others about. When happy, or contented, they spread their warm-fuzzy feeling to those around them. This is their usual state. When they are down, however, they go to internal brooding places so dark they would scare a Russian in mid-winter. I've learned to leave brooding Dutchies alone; they'll snap out of it soon enough on their own. I've never been able to assist them in those dark times.

They must be kept busy; idleness makes them brood.

Quite adventurous as young people (they love to travel), they grow more conservative and home-body-ish with age. They appreciate humour, but don't tell a joke very well.

My

[The Stranger]

i can relate a bit to kukri's vision... oh kukri, youre soooo wise :P

[Vladimir]

i can relate a bit to kukri's vision... oh kukri, youre soooo wise :P

So, what have the Undutchables been up to lately?

[zukenft]

I like how the Dutch have their G's. energie, technologie, grootfontein...
so funny

[Adrian II]

However, when was the last time any Dutch poster here mentioned the Dutch Republican tradition, or Spinoza, or Grotius 'Mare Liberum'?

About five months ago, when I discussed Montesquieu with Seamus Fermanagh and others. That must have been during your sabbatical.

Anyhoo.. the test for real Dutchness is eating a raw herring with chopped onions and a pickle, in one go - dangle it above your head, let it slide in, then bite it off just before the tail.

[Louis VI the Fat]

You're back! You're back!

About five months ago, when I discussed Montesquieu with Seamus Fermanagh and others. That must have been during your sabbatical.

I have absolutely no recollection of this. Maybe I was away.
But do you disagree with the point too? That the Dutch identity is constructed more on social progressiveness than on historical tradition?

Anyhoo.. the test for real Dutchness is eating a raw herring with chopped onions and a pickle, in one go - dangle it above your head, let it slide in, then bite it off just before the tail.

The Dutch are famous for shoving anything all the way down their throat.

I don't think that this can be ascribed to any embarassment on our part.

You are quite correct. Schama specifically spoke about the 17th century. In blissful ignorance I presumed this cultural trait still lingered on.

[Fragony]

Talk about being stuck between two cultures. Pickles? Everybody knows that only in Amsterdam they serve herring with pickles and these barbarians chop the herring up into conveniently bitesize bits that are that much easier to consume. Idiots, eating a herring properly should be a trial by fire.

[Wasp]

I think the problem with the national identity is just that there is not identity. The Dutch are basically a collection of several tiny communities, each with their own language and culture. Then, a central government promoted some sort of fake identity - the so-called 'Republiek der Batavieren' was used as a large umbrella over these communities, and 'the Netherlands' were born.

Most of the Dutch are simple people - a reason why they don't know much of culture, or history, is because they just don't care. It's not useful to them, and why spend time learning it while they can just enjoy their lives?

There's a lot of good things about my country. Also a lot of foul things I wish I could make go away.

[Adrian II]

The Dutch are basically a collection of several tiny communities, each with their own language and culture. Then, a central government promoted some sort of fake identity - the so-called 'Republiek der Batavieren' was used as a large umbrella over these communities, and 'the Netherlands' were born.

Right on the mark. Until 1814 the Dutch were a patchwork of local communities with diverging religions, languages and regional affinities. After King William I had been installed, the Calvinist ruling elite tried to unify the country and shape it according to its self-image. Its main instrument was the moral campaign, which created the impression that Dutch identity revolves around moral precepts such as hard work, hygiene, the security of public life (removal of beggars and thieves into workhouses, etcetera), and the sanctity of personal property and profit. For a time it certainly did. The subjects they campaigned on were issues that appealed to all religions and communities, both before and after the Belgian secession of 1830 removed a large Roman Catholic component from Dutch public life.

But the need to accommodate Catholics and Jews, to integrate cities and rural areas and to keep the nation together also required compromise and backroom politics. Hence a second Dutch tradition: moderation and accommodation are regarded as virtues, not as signs of (social or intellectual) weakness. A prime example of Dutch accomodation have always been the waterships, where people of all walks of life and personal convictions worked together for the common good of water management.

As for Dutch culture, we have always been so deeply influenced by the larger nations around us that we couldn't tell our own traditions from those of our neighbours. I'm cool with that. So are our business people who make money all across the world because they are used to adapting to other customs, cultures and languages.