Koinon Hellenon Generals Are Lame

Just started a Massalia game, where I cheated in order to get my entire starting army from Greece to Massalia and Emporium. My first battle in this game, I send a 3/4th stack against a half stack rebel town nearby, mostly levies against my 2 Generals, 4 Celto-Helenic Infantry, 2 Massalian Hoplights, 2 Celtic Archers, Skirmishers, Hellenic Cavalry Skirmishers.

All is going great, until my Faction Leader dies to the Gaul General Bodyguard (Brihim s/p). Even though the enemy general was surrounded by 4 units of spearmen.

*sigh* at least he was in his 60's and to die soon anyways. As I am almost done with the battle, fighting the last unit of Heavy Infantry in the town square, my second general dies.

I just quit out of frustration.

Enemy General survives being surrounded by countless spearmen, in fact, he's the only one to survive out of the entire unit.

Yet both MY generals die with almost full strength units. They are nearly the first casualties out of their own bodyguard unit. What the hell!

:wall:


[Rant Over]

I think your generals got Hypocondriac, or another HP reducing traits... so he will quite easily killed than his bodyguards... anyway, I think KH generals are good Indeed... for Roleplay... they can present a general who share the toils of becoming foot soldier:laugh4:

It's true that unmounted generals are less effective than mounted ones, but they can be very good if used properly. But certainly, the Koinon Bodyguards can die easier than mounted ones, as they are more likely to get killed by a single cavalry charge from the left or even the front. Use them purely as shock troops and be conservative, don't tire them too much and your guys will wok wonders.

Maion

also as a general rule, never make your on-foot general fight on the walls, it's one of the more easy way to make him killed, or fall down accidentely.

I wish it was any of those things you guys have listed.

The faction leader was in good condition given his health, the younger general had several +1hp traits and spearcarrier/etc.

The faction leader died while charging the rear of the cavalry in the beggening of the fight. He was fresh.

The second general died towards the end, he was tired, but one of over 1000 units that had sorrounded the last heavy infantry.

It was a small Gaul town with only wooden fences.

Last time I played as Massalia, I had similar experiences. Such as a general being the first casualty of war from a Carthigian charge head on into spears XD

I may just have to resort to turning my generals into Triari. They watch from the back of the lines, and only fight when they absolutely need to haha

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Originally Posted by tapanojum

I wish it was any of those things you guys have listed.

The faction leader was in good condition given his health, the younger general had several +1hp traits and spearcarrier/etc.

The faction leader died while charging the rear of the cavalry in the beggening of the fight. He was fresh.

The second general died towards the end, he was tired, but one of over 1000 units that had sorrounded the last heavy infantry.

It was a small Gaul town with only wooden fences.

Last time I played as Massalia, I had similar experiences. Such as a general being the first casualty of war from a Carthigian charge head on into spears XD

I may just have to resort to turning my generals into Triari. They watch from the back of the lines, and only fight when they absolutely need to haha

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When I play Rome, Triarii form my battle lines, lol. As for foot generals, I'm really not a fan of them, but it could be worse. I've had a few early casualties with foot generals but it seems like EVERY time I get into melee with a Casse general he is always one of the first 5 soldiers to die. So, roleplay that your general cheated at dice, his men stabbed him in the back, and move on :clown:

what difficulty level do you play on?

to protect the general during cav charges, hit the 'f' key just before his unit reaches the enemy. he will stop to the horn-blowing/rally thing while the rest of the unit charges in...

ah, that's why my generals live rather long and i only have few who die in battle rather than rotting in some boring city^^. I usually do that because ... well because I like o do so :D

and putting them on walls is not all bad:
1. in contrast to cav generals they CAN stand on walls^^
2. if you deploy them right they can be kept away from action rather long- if you deploy the unit left of the ladder/seige tower.

appart from that, at least they tend to die with dignity and don't flee only armed with the warchest^^

The AIGeneral trait gives the AI FMs insane bonuses to hitpoints, command, etc. Nerfing it would prevent this sort of thing from happening.

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Originally Posted by Cullhwch

The AIGeneral trait gives the AI FMs insane bonuses to hitpoints, command, etc. Nerfing it would prevent this sort of thing from happening.

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That would also make it too easy to murder them with slingers.

No, it still takes FOREVER to kill generals with iaosatae.

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Originally Posted by mcantu

what difficulty level do you play on?

to protect the general during cav charges, hit the 'f' key just before his unit reaches the enemy. he will stop to the horn-blowing/rally thing while the rest of the unit charges in...

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VH/M.

The FL didn't die from charging the cavalry, but about 1 minute into it, a cavalry's lance just took him out. Freaking Spartans vs Gaul cavalry in closed combat...and they still die? Pathetic! :wall:

the randomness of war...

No clue what the hell you're on about buddy. I use my KH general as a linetroop. and they kick ass. Put em on the right side so your general is protected by not only his captain and standardbearer, but the regiment on his left.

"KH generals are lame" LOL they make short work of 90% of the infantry I face with them, and decimate cavalry better than most spearmen. Infact I'd go asfar to say as they are the best hoplites in the west. The only ones better are the spartan bodyguards in the start of the campaign.

Yeah, in my first Massalian campaign back in 1.0, my KH bodyguards did fine. No generals dying prematurely, even though they were always used in the front line.

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Originally Posted by Celtic_Punk

No clue what the hell you're on about buddy. I use my KH general as a linetroop. and they kick ass. Put em on the right side so your general is protected by not only his captain and standardbearer, but the regiment on his left.

"KH generals are lame" LOL they make short work of 90% of the infantry I face with them, and decimate cavalry better than most spearmen. Infact I'd go asfar to say as they are the best hoplites in the west. The only ones better are the spartan bodyguards in the start of the campaign.

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Obviously, this thread was made out of annoying anger for the lameness of how unlucky I got to lose both generals, on the very first battle of the campaign.

Yes, Spartans and the Athenian Bodyguard are very sexy and effective. However, in all my campaigns as KH, I lose my general far more frequently in safe situations that I shouldn't.

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Obviously, this thread was made out of annoying anger for the lameness of how unlucky I got to lose both generals, on the very first battle of the campaign.

Yes, Spartans and the Athenian Bodyguard are very sexy and effective. However, in all my campaigns as KH, I lose my general far more frequently in safe situations that I shouldn't.

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Nice. Hey, you wanna play poker?!

hehe! I've pulled that on a few unsuspecting fellers.

but yeah, heed my advice, Put that general on the right flank. if you got another one, put him on the left, and guard him with another strong hoplite unit on his left. You will have a solid line. if you have a third general use him as a centrepeice, or a flanking force.

I hardly use cavalry as the KH. And i rarely have problems defeating Makedonian forces.

My unit positioning wasn't the problem, it was just pure bad luck in that battle.

I mean 1000 troops sorrounding 100, and still the general getting killed? That's sad =(

Try this.The sweboz have foot general too. Do a custom fight and see if u still get the same problem:beam::yes::beam:

welll... Take it from a soldier... War is Hell.

semi OT but I must say the Sweboz bodyguards rock, they're prolly one of the closest things to hero units in EB xD

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Originally Posted by tapanojum

I lose my general far more frequently in safe situations that I shouldn't.

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I wouldn't call being in the thick of battle a "safe situation" :beam:

Just because you outnumber and outclass the enemy, doesn't mean that your commanding officers can't be KIA when they join the fray. Losing two generals like that in one battle is some very poor luck, but not something that "shouldn't" ever happen.

I always get annoyed by the KH bodyguards on the field, especially in the opening stages of the campaign against Makadonia. Even after I engulf the flanks of the deuteroi phalangites, they are so slow at killling them off!

:wall:

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Originally Posted by Conqueror

I wouldn't call being in the thick of battle a "safe situation" :beam:

Just because you outnumber and outclass the enemy, doesn't mean that your commanding officers can't be KIA when they join the fray. Losing two generals like that in one battle is some very poor luck, but not something that "shouldn't" ever happen.

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Losing your Faction leader while his entire bodyguard is stabbing a bunch of Gallic cavalry with their backs turned to the general except for a couple guys...that Shouldn't happen...maybe I'm just very lucky :laugh4:

lol, well be lucky that you've got rid of that sissy of a faction leader :laugh4: i've played a KH-Campaign some time ago, and i do not remembe anything bad about their generals except for their worse mobility

lol I prefer them over most bodyguards lol

maybe i just got used to foot mobile generals when i was playing arthurian total war... the o'neil clan (Ui Neill) had these crazy irish swordsmen for generals. they'd probably be butchered by heavy cavalry tho... thank god i never played it long enough to face the british lol

I don't find them lame at all. In my KH campaign I've used them as flankers when I could afford it and as front line units when I couldn't. They held the line just fine even against phalanxes. I had to use them on the walls once and the general defended the wall without taking too many casualties. The only time I've lost a general was in some crazy siege when his unit was fighting too much on the streets and got exhausted. You just had a very bad luck in that battle.

I had something similar, only in Medieval TW. I've nearly completely destroyed the enemy with the only thing remaining was the enemy trebouchlet (sp). Having no other cavalry than my glorious general, I charge him there across half the map. Exactly at that time the said trebouchlet fires on one of my 3-rd grade militia units, but it misses and hits my general bodyguard unit who were just riding towards the trebouchlet, result - general killed on the spot.

And if we're talking about crappy generals in EB, that's Roman Consulars. They are nearly useless against anything, except may be skirmishers and already wavering troops.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Ulpius

And if we're talking about crappy generals in EB, that's Roman Consulars. They are nearly useless against anything, except may be skirmishers and already wavering troops.

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I always thought the Roman bodyguard's were at least decent. They don't fall apart immediately like it would seem like from everyone's poor opinion of them.

Well, they are decent. When I face them as Makedonia, they fare quite well. Unless, of course, they face my Somatophylakes Strategou. Now that's another story:tongue::laugh4:

Maion

Roman generals turn tail against celtic levy's... Piss poor performace in every battle I've had them. They just aren't heavy enough, or light enough. It's not the soldier's fault. Its the equipment that is their true failing.

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Originally Posted by Celtic_Punk

Roman generals turn tail against celtic levy's... Piss poor performace in every battle I've had them. They just aren't heavy enough, or light enough. It's not the soldier's fault. Its the equipment that is their true failing.

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Agreed. Roman generals are best used only to take out routing enemies. I've never had them be any good against anything else (by any good, I mean with a charge that delivers a decent number of kills, or any serious staying power in melee.)

I love KH Generals. I once lost a bridge battle(very dire situation) and a general was trapped(He was a lame FM) by hordes of Thracians. It took about a minute in super fast mode for him to finally die... And that was because I ordered him to run out of the mass of dudes.

I dunno, they seem to do pretty well when you keep them in defense mode and stationary like other hoplite units. I usually also keep them out of combat except when flanking. As for dying... well that happened to Thebes at the end of the Corinthian Wars. I believe both the leaders of the anti-Sparta alliance bought it in the final battle.

Maybe its from playing Romani so much but....
The Romans do not have spectacular FM guards but I will definitely throw them into melee. they do have a decent sidearm, after all, and since the AI rarely, if ever, uses the secondary weapon on FMs I can butcher better cavalry with them. I used my Romani FMs as other cavalry FM killers. I would avoid foot FMs like the plague, though, as they had a tendency to inflict...undue casualties....on my FMs. But I have killed countless Carthie, Ptolie, AS, Mak, Getic, Gallic FMs by direct confrontation with my Romani FMs. i personally think the Romani FM naysayers are just spoiled from using the very heavy and ultra heavy cav available to just about any faction east of Rome. Against their local rivals only the Carthies can go toe to toe and hope to win. Luso FMs = chum, Gallic FMs = tougher chum. This is not to say that any FM truly sucks (Casse excluded, sorry) its just that no one near Rome has a FM that truly outclasses the Romani ones when used in AI hands. Get further east, however, and you start seeing the catas and other ultra heavies that can win even in AI hands by virtue of being hellenistic tanks.
To put it in the tank parallel, Romani FMs = Shermans, a very utilitarian type; Eastern FMs = Tiger tanks, singular butt kickers in comparison. The Somatophylkes Strategou are at the cusp of the border between world beaters and utilitarian IMO, much like the Carthie FMs. If the AI used their secondary weapons I'm sure my Romani FMs would have to be a lot more cautious. Oh, and foot FMs = bazookas.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

I always thought the Roman bodyguard's were at least decent. They don't fall apart immediately like it would seem like from everyone's poor opinion of them.

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It's just that the Equites Consulares aren't good at anything. At all. Melee-specific cavalry bodyguards tend to have a solid charge and either an AP weapon (kopis or mace) or a high-lethality celtic longsword as a backup weapon. The Consulares' charge is adequate, but their melee capabilities are undermined by their crappy short swords, which have a lower lethality and a lower attack than the Brihentins' longswords yet also lack the AP attribute. This is compounded by the fact that the Consulares' defense values are the lowest among all cavalry bodyguards. In short, Equites Consulares will lose every fair fight against enemy generals. And they will lose badly.

I have experience with Roman bodyguards, KH, Carthie and now Macedonian. Among those, Romans are absolutely the worst. Both Carthie and Macedonian FMs charge into infantry and devastate everything in their pass. I had fresh units being routed by their flank or rear charge. KH generals are very durable and can inflict good damage virtually on every unit before sustaining significant casualties. Roman Consulars are another story. I usually try not to use them at all before the enemy starts mass routing, but in some battles during my Romani campaign I had no choice.

Once I had a very difficult battle against Aedui when they've brought tons of northern Gallic swordsmen. I've charged with the consulars at the back of their swordsmen unit. The charge brought nearly no casualties, and when the charge was spent, Consulars started dieing like flies. I barely got my general out.

Yeah, Romani FMs are average cavalry, but they're average cavalry with the bonus of regeneration. In other games you need to find a special ring to get that magical trait...

Don't build an army expecting it to be "just good enough" as long as your FM comes through with some magical move that causes all enemies to rout.

Some factions have FMs that do that, some don't. Some have FMs that will stand fast through hours of melee until they grind down their opponents. The fun of the game is to work with what you have, and adapt your tactics accordingly.

I've had plenty of games where one faction's FMs get chopped up like cabbage, and then in the next campaign they'll tear me a new one.

So as you can see mr. OP... Koinon Hellenon generals ARE NOT LAME... You just have shite luck.
They can be the most powerful force on the battlefield. Nothing touches them in a seige once you are inside the walls. You are defending a settlement? put your general right on the man route to the town square. They'll hold the line for the entire battle.

In all fairness it really depends on the tactics that a player likes to employ. Since with the exception of the Pahlava I generally play infantry factions my tactics and use of cavalry reflect that. All i ask of my cavalry is to cover my flanks, perform light skirmishing duties, and perform the final routing charge if necessary. For those tasks the Romani FM is more than capable. I like to lock horns with my infantry and once one flank has been worn down to the point where the enemy is beginning to get shaken I'll commit my FMs, assuming my flanks are secure, which generally leads to a folding of the flank and a mass rout. Like I said earlier, I will use my FMs as FM killers, but we're talking about me using the AI's inability to switch to secondary and me swarming a single enemy FM with 3-4 of mine. When it comes to choosing what cav I use, I prefer light/medium melee cav. Incidentally, the Romani have that: their Equites and Equites Extraordinarii. And I'll use the Campanian cavalry as my heavy skirmishers.
OK, now I'm rambling. My point is that perhaps he used his FMs in a less-than-optimal way. maybe the FM had already taken a few hits and a lucky blow was all that was needed. I agree with the rest of the crowd in the "KH generals DON'T suck" group.