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http://www.economist.com/world/europ...ry_id=12868180
Found this interesting. Not surprising that a group that was converted under the Ottomans would go back to Christianity (of one kind or another).
The Ottomans were a very secular Islamic empire, but I'm sure being a Muslim helped so many converted.
According to that article many were Christians in the closet anyways, so it's not really a large change, only that they're becoming more open.
True, but it's good to see they feel comfortable coming out with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
The Saudi sheikh's are stepping up there game though. I read that one of them is spending 28million on a new mosque (maybe more than one?) in the region. :dizzy2:
When will the world ever be free of the bloody missionaries?
The single worst feature of one of our world's religions, and lack of them the saving grace of every other religion....
:laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Of the major religions, only judaism and hinduism have never tried to expand their religion to other people. And Buddhism was the first to give it a try.
And the reason why most of these people's ancestors converted to Islam in the first place is because....why do I even bother.
:bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenring
Actually judaim did do the converting stuff but that was during the Romans
There's a difference between "trying to expand a religion", and trying to shove your religion down the throat of every living soul on the planet, because they'll all go to hell if you don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenring
Because of the sword, because of trade and influence, because of alliances, because of a better chance to gain power, because those in power had that religion etc, the normal stuff. Not because a bunch of tele-evangelists held miracle rallies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenring
And because the the Ottoman millet system (and the dhimmi tax under the Arabs in other areas), while tolerant of the existance of other religions, discriminated against them with additional taxes.Quote:
Because of the sword, because of trade and influence, because of alliances, because of a better chance to gain power, because those in power had that religion etc, the normal stuff. Not because a bunch of tele-evangelists held miracle rallies.
Wich part of the article makes you think that conversion is shoved down their throat?
Are you going to whine that the Ottomans taxed a heretic a bit more at a time when we were burning the slightest divergence from the true faith at the stake...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenring
And I would say that the extra tax is covered by what I said, under "because of a better chance to gain power"...
That part was aimed at christianity in general ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenring
I will traverse seas to convert you and put your name on numerous church "please call me lists". You'll be suckin' down the Eucharist before your next birthday. Count on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Nope. But I'd put it in a different way: places in history that are generally labelled "enlightened safe havens" for religious minorities, like the Arab caliphates for most of their time or the Dutch republic in the 17th and 18th century, are more a reflection on what a cesspit the rest of the world was at the time.Quote:
Are you going to whine that the Ottomans taxed a heretic a bit more at a time when we were burning the slightest divergence from the true faith at the stake...?
None of wich I consider particulary relevant today. Personally, I've only been approached two times by someone trying to convert me and they were both Jehovah's Witnesses (and to be fair, they weren't pushy about it)
How about you?
I never did call them "enlightened safe havens" though ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenring
And we do agree on that.
Yes, two times is about the number of times I get approached. I assume you mean daily, yes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenring
I'm pretty sure someone already made that prank :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
that was because the romans had many harsh decrees against the jews so we hoped that by converting romans as much as we can, judaism would become more acceptable, thus having the oppressive laws removed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
after they saw it was hopeless they stopped.
also, its very hard to convert. judaism wants that so we get honest converts, not ones who are just looking for a life experience. the average conversion for Orthodox Judaism process takes about 2-3 years.
The (early) middle ages in Europe weren't nearly as bad for religious minorities as people like to think. Just about all major towns had thriving jewish communities and heretics were hardly prosecuted, that is about at the same time as the islamic golden age, prosecution of heretics was more political then religious little dispute between the HRE emperor and the Vatican.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investiture_Controversy
that was because the romans had many harsh decrees against the jews so we hoped that by converting romans as much as we can, judaism would become more acceptable, thus having the oppressive laws removed.
after they saw it was hopeless they stopped.
Not really, jews were pretty much left alone, been revolts that were put down the roman way but romans didn't really care, they were traditionalists, as long as you payed tribute to the gods and later the emperor they didn't really mind that much. That is why christians were prosecuted, they refused to pay honor and the romans feared that would bring harm over the empire since it would displease the gods.
Even atheists try to do that to Christians, so relax.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
We don't do it in general, and if you are seriously trying to tell us that you get approached twice a day then, unless you pick theological fights, I'm flat out not going to believe you.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Now, onto the topic at hand. What seems to have happened here is that a nominally Muslim group of people without strong ties to the religion have decided they would like to convert. The really interesting part here is that this seems to be happening now, perhaps because there is no longer an Us-them, Muslim-Christian, dynamic.
Regardless of your religious leaning this is a wonderful story because it shows people are willing to break with a national identity and make personal choices, that is a very positive sign for the stability and openness of the society.
I'm sorry, but I have yet to see atheists(or any other non-christian) do any of the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
- distribute flyers telling you you're going to hell if you don't follow the true religion
- stand around in streets or whatever to preach
- send missionaries on door to door missions*
- organize massive rallies to convert people
- organize miracle rallies to make people believe
....and this is just a few of the billion number of extremely annoying ways the christians use to convert people. Please stop. I'm tired.
Not any more, because I'm switched jobs. However, at my old job, every day I went to buy some lunch, and on my way to buy said lunch, I would be pestered by the same idiot handing out the watchtower. First on my way there, then once again on the way backQuote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
*this one is by far the most annoying one
So you have a grudge against the christian religion because of that *one* guy?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
You do realize how that sounds, right? But I've seen posters, billboards, signs, flyers, you name it. A quick Google Image should probably help you out as well.Quote:
- distribute flyers telling you you're going to hell if you don't follow the true religion
I've seen Muslims do that as well as atheists and Christians. All of the above rarely stand in the streets and preach, but I've found that many atheists "preach" in schools and workplaces I have attended.Quote:
- stand around in streets or whatever to preach
Jehovah's Witnesses don't count.Quote:
- send missionaries on door to door missions
I've yet to see a rally to convert people. I've seen many rallies as gatherings of those who are already faithful.Quote:
- organize massive rallies to convert people
Don't you think it's also annoying to have atheists follow you around and tell you that you're wrong? I don't get many Christians preaching to me, and I didn't when I was of an agnostic bent either. I constantly get atheists telling me I'm wrong.Quote:
....and this is just a few of the billion number of extremely annoying ways the christians use to convert people. Please stop. I'm tired.
Yes, Come to the True Relgion, Christianity!! :laugh4: :clown:
(Joke, don't mean any offense you know :yes:)
Seen this from atheists, though obviously not going to "hell"Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Saw this once over Christmas, they were Evangelicals and American sponsored, I've had more contact with weirdo sects this year, and Buddhists a couple of times.Quote:
- stand around in streets or whatever to preach
This is the people of the JH persuasion, they're often quite nice actually. I usually invite them in for a cup of tea, just like my mum does. After all, they do a thankless job. Never come across a Christian denomination that does this.Quote:
- send missionaries on door to door missions*
Never even heard of thisQuote:
- organize massive rallies to convert people
Heard of this, never heard of one near me. Personally I'd be more worried about a demon possessing the miracle worker than I'd expect a cure. I'm not big on demonsQuote:
- organize miracle rallies to make people believe
No more than two of which apply to any Christian I have met.Quote:
....and this is just a few of the billion number of extremely annoying ways the christians use to convert people. Please stop. I'm tired.
Why don't you stop with the insulting and, frankly, ignorant generalisation.
One guy? That's your basis for hating religion in all it's forms?Quote:
Not any more, because I'm switched jobs. However, at my old job, every day I went to buy some lunch, and on my way to buy said lunch, I would be pestered by the same idiot handing out the watchtower. First on my way there, then once again on the way back
Don't be unfair Philipvs, HoreTore always singles out christianity in his rants :mellow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Nah. My fundamentalist relatives took care of that pickle pretty much from the beginning...Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
As well as an utterly pointless, irrelevant, annoying and idiotic job. Get a haircut and a real job, lousy hippies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
That's not true!! I also pick on conservatives, market libbies and nationalists...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenring
Seen this from atheists, though obviously not going to "hell"
So you've seen atheists dristribute flyers saying people are going to if they don't follow the true religion...
the words religion and hell wouldn't really play with an atheist flyer (unless they were questioning them) so i dont see how atheists could do something similar without hell mentioned...
I have never once had an atheist try to convert me, many times people have attempted to convert me to christianity... im sure there are atheists who try to force thier beliefs on others, but they are hugely outnumbered by christians who try to force thier beliefs on others...
The way HoreTore worded his post was obviously a little strange. However, yes, I have seen (and I presume he has seen as well) atheists distributing flyers saying that religion is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly
Perhaps it is a matter of location, but I've always had many more militant atheists trying to talk me into following their quasi-religion.Quote:
im sure there are atheists who try to force thier beliefs on others, but they are hugely outnumbered by christians who try to force thier beliefs on others...
I agree in many circumstances it's annoying and often they sound ignorant, but when they're telling you that you're going to hell, in many cases they genuinly believe what they're talking about and want to "save" you. At least from what my right wing Christian conservatives tell me...
Converting seems to be a problem when money is involved. For example Mormons require members of the church to send 1/10th (I think that's the fraction) of their income to the Mormon church. There is a perfect reason to have aggressive conversion stances...
Perhaps it is a matter of location, but I've always had many more militant atheists trying to talk me into following their quasi-religion.
Well to be honest in personal experience its hardly any of either, in school it simply wasn't discussed except in r.e. though thinking on it that means we get told about all the religions but not atheism... but in personal experience very little of christianity, and well i never see like a group of people in town centre trying to tell people theres no god, maybe it only happens in fairly big cities but in the likes of newport and cardiff and i can honestly say i haven't seen it (not that im there all the time)
I was more basing my opinion on the fact that there are big powerful organisations with commited followers who want to convert people, whereas there seem to be little disorganised groups of atheists making the odd effort, with things like the bus advertising topic we discussed a while back...
So what? Why on earth should I care...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexanderofmacedon
You don't understand what's happening here, do you?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
CR
Don't take the guy seriously. He's just being bitter.
You ought to read more Backroom threads. :wink3:Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly
Atheists are much more pushy indeed. Christians accepts atheism, and I never have Jehova's at my door, had one in the 7 years I live here, gave her a cup of coffee was raining like hell and politely said I wasn't interested and that was all there was to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Take it as a compliment they care about your being in their afterlife. Other then that, get over it.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Kinda funny how the most anti-religion are usually the same people who are convinced the earth is warming up. Coincidence, I think not.
1. I don't care what they think of me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexanderofmacedon
2. I won't get over it as long as they keep pestering me. If the missionaries could just keep their bloody faith to themselves like most religious people, I wouldn't have a problem.
Do you know my stance on enviromentalism, Frags? ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
And quit the "atheists do this and that" yadda yadda. My stance on religious/existential issues is impossible to push on others, because my stance is apathy and "could not care or interest me in the slightest".... Pretty hard to work up the energy to spread apathy...
Seen Athiests try to convert people, Charles Dawkins for instance, but also people I have met.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Atheists have converted me. To Roman Catholicism.
On Long Island , the notion that Christians try to convert and Atheists don't is laughable.
Hey I can relate, I am atheist from the Dutch biblebelt I feel your pain glad I am out of thereQuote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Don't like being on the receiving end for once, do you?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Richard Dawkins, actually, Charles Darwin. Dawkins is a sad example of redicalisation in the face of radicalisation. He has ceased to be a respectable scientist as far as I am concerned, his current project is researching whether fanciful children's stories are harmful to young minds, no seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzo_H
As I have never, ever, not even once, engaged in any kind of missionary activity, it's widely off the mark. It's very appropriate when leveled at missionaries though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
I wasn't talking about missionary work, I was talking about your reaction to my statements on certain militant atheists.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
They have nothing to do with me ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
In fact, they have as little to do with me as the idiots who go banging on my door every now and then have to do with you. I've never seen any "missionary atheist", the best I've seen is "atheist who ridicules", so I can't really comment on that... Unless, of course, you think that when someone is ridiculing a persons faith they're actually trying to convert them.
Its kind of like how a lot of the more theistic members of the .Org feel whenever religion is brought up.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Actually, risiculing (or negating, if you want to be polite) someone's belief is the first step in conversion. You ridicule Christianity all the time, pretty much every thread we have you attack religion and Christianity in particular. You've done it here, complaining about people forcing their beliefs on others, and you insist on tarring all Christians with the fundamentalist brush.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I suppose the vast majority of atheists/agnostics are fine and don't impose on anyone's beliefs, but the minority who do are pretty annoying.
A Christians beliefs demand that they evangelise, yet it's not necessary for atheists, so why do it?
Do tell me how somebody trying to talk you into something is militant in the least?Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Because atheists see religion from the outside, and from the outside it looks very very very stupid. Im sure theres a fair number of the "annoying" atheists out there that are trying to help you out by saving you 10% of your income and a great deal of your time.Quote:
A Christians beliefs demand that they evangelise, yet it's not necessary for atheists, so why do it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militan...litant_atheismQuote:
Originally Posted by Mooks
Shouting down is also a little different than talking - though most do talk.
The Khmer Rouge were militant atheists. The soviets were militant atheists. A atheist trying to engage you in a debate -even if hes rude- is not militant. To even call him militant is just a lame attempt to insult atheists, similar to calling atheism a religion or calling Richard Dawkins our high priest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
"Today the term is sometimes used pejoratively by theists to describe people believed to campaign actively or outspokenly for atheism and against religion."Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooks
e·jor·a·tive (pĭ-jôr'ə-tĭv, -jŏr'-, pěj'ə-rā'tĭv, pē'jə-) Pronunciation KeyQuote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
adj.
1. Tending to make or become worse.
2. Disparaging; belittling.
So basically its the same thing as I said. Basically a lame insult.
An atheist trying to engage to in debate is not militant, as long as he stops once he realizes you don't want to talk about it. An atheist insulting your religion, trying to bash your viewpoint into the ground, and/or persistently trying to convert you is a militant atheist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooks
No, hes a dick. Or rude, or unpolite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
If he sticks a weapon in your face, then hes militant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooks
:book:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictionary.com
I concede that I was wrong on the definition of the word "militant". Though atheists can easily toss that word around too, just as much as theists do and right back at them. Which makes it....a lame insult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Richard Dawkins, thanks. I always confuse the two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
He does seem a bit infatuated with killing the thought of God.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaKryi3605g
Perhaps a cliched video among creationists, but certainly interested me.
If there is no missionaries present, I see no reason why anyone would feel I'm "attacking them" or that I am "against them". If I had tried to pin it on the religious people in the forum, I would be widely off the mark. I can't see that I've been off the mark so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Winter
Uhm, no. Several mistakes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
1. I've talked about missionaries. The ones banging on my door or approaching me on the streets. How is that "tarring all christians"? I'd say it's a pretty small(but very annoying) part of christianity.
2. Ridicule is the first step of conversion? Art thou insane? What on earth am I trying to convert them to then? My Glorious Religion of Absolutely Nothing? The Church of Don't Care? How is that possible?
3. I attack conservatives and market-libbies all the time. Religious issues is a side-issue for me. It's not my fault christians mostly position themselves on the conservative wing when it comes to issues like gay marriage, abortion, etc. Get on the socialist side, start supporting gays and abortion, and we'll bicker a lot less ~;)
So then, you really should understand my problem with missionaries ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
I do, I admit I used to joke about door-to-door evangelisers before I was a Christian. However, the difference between 'missionaries' and 'militant atheists' is that the missionaries tend to at least be polite when approaching people. Militant atheists, if I may use the term, do not approach people because they want to help them, but because they want to destroy their worldview, or perhaps just feel clever. There are of course exceptions on both sides, but generally speaking this is what seems to be the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Just remember I am talking about a fringe of atheists.
Explain to me the difference in "destroying their worldview" when atheists are trying to deconvert or theists trying to convert.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
(Taking off the god goggles is a big change in worldview though)
As I do not desire their "help", I could not care less what their motivations are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
There isn't. "God goggles" by the way is a tiny bit offensive, I'd prefer you not use that term. It's like me talking about an "atheist blindfold". I do think, however, that it is more likely that an atheist does it to feel clever, or even out of spite on occasion, because they have far less motivation. Having said that, I do accept that some atheists believe you are better off without beliefs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooks
Sorry about that then. Maybe..."God spectrum" ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
We don't like the spectrum, it implies degrees (sorry, that's a denominational joke). I would suggest, "theistic worldview", because that is the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooks
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Confirmed. Along with the occasional shot at capitalism in general and disdain for nations without a "proper" tradition of unionism.
Iv been thinking about it. How are goggles offensive? Basically the term "god goggles" is reffering to the perspective of looking through life as everything guided by god's "plan" and that he is looking over you. Without them you see the world literally as it is, with them you see through a glass (the glass being the theistic worldview).Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
The first time I heard the term was when a former theist now atheist said he took them off and was scared for the first few moments, then learned to accept the world without them.
Now a blindfold implies you dont see anything, goggles on the other hand you can see things as clearly as everyone else.
Goggles implies that we have put something on in order to change the way we see things, as if we have constructed our beliefs because we are cowards or are not strong enough to view the real world.
I would advise you not to use the term in polite conversation.
I can see how the goggles can be insulting and complimentary depending on how you take it...
for example go to the swimming pool and your goggles actually distort your vision, until you get underwater when they make you see clearly....
though goggles generally enable you to see better whereas a blindfold definetly hampers your vision... though tbh thier both just terms, if some reasonable made logical post by a christian mentioned an atheist blindfold i wouldn't think twice on it, some post insulting those who do not believe in god mentioning it would probably irk me a little, i would say it should apply the same to god goggles...
If it makes you feel any better, Seamus, I blame the mobsters for that last part :beam:Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooks
Goggles imply an altered state of vision/need for visual assistance, I do not consider that I have either. It is exactly the same as "rose tinted glasses". I used the blindfold analogy because that is often how atheists appear to me, another common trope is that you walk around with your eyes closed.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly
Since we are speaking from two different worldviews we should avoid loaded turns of phrase, "atheist blindfold" and "God goggles" are two such terms. I'm not personally offended, I'm just warning you that some people probably will take offense.